Do you pack heat on your 250 beast?

[ninja250]

Originally Posted by Peanut_EOD

Stop ****ing quoting that picture! ****!

hahaha don't you just love the full pic quotes lol

[onetruevibe]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Bottom line: The gun comes out of the holster ONLY if there is real, imminent danger to my life. That's what the law says in my state, and woe betide me if I don't follow it. Giving up a bike, your wallet, -- anything you own -- is trivial compared to the cost of defending yourself in both criminal and civil court. It's even less than trivial compared to the long-term consequences to your life.

I couldn't agree more.

[nickjpass]

You learn more than just motorcycling on here!

[n4mwd]

If you do have to shoot a robber, its really best if you don't stick around and call the cops. If its a known robber, the cops really aren't going to bust a gut trying to catch you.

An anonymous cop once told me about an incident where a thug was robbing people in a certain location. It had been going on for weeks. The cops would come out and take a report, but that's about as far as they could get with it. One day, they were called and they arrived to find the robber shot and bleeding profusely. They promptly secured the scene, checked the guy, and then secured the scene a few more times. When the guy finally died, they called it in. That's one robber that didn't get to sue anybody.

At least that's how it works in FL.

["A"]

If I can't get away from imminent danger chasing after me on my motorcycle, packing a gun isn't going to help.

[massacremasses]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

If you do have to shoot a robber, its really best if you don't stick around and call the cops. If its a known robber, the cops really aren't going to bust a gut trying to catch you.

An anonymous cop once told me about an incident where a thug was robbing people in a certain location. It had been going on for weeks. The cops would come out and take a report, but that's about as far as they could get with it. One day, they were called and they arrived to find the robber shot and bleeding profusely. They promptly secured the scene, checked the guy, and then secured the scene a few more times. When the guy finally died, they called it in. That's one robber that didn't get to sue anybody.

At least that's how it works in FL.

that was your 666 post fyi... lol


I want to say hell yeah to that, but my moral convictions wont allow it...

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by adouglas

this.

Just for political temperature purposes, I do have a CCW. I also happen to think the attitude of many armed citizens is shortsighted and unrealistic.

Those who envision drawing to prevent property loss (and especially the guy who chooses to carry in a state where it's illegal) really should educate themselves both on the law where they live and on what actually happens AFTER the incident to those who pull a gun.

The consequences of brandishing a weapon are bad, even if you're legally entitled to carry it. The consequences of shooting someone, even if you're in the right, are REALLY REALLY bad in all kinds of ways.

Remember Bernie Goetz? Go look up what happened to him. He shot and wounded four punks in a NY subway in 1984 when they tried to shake him down for some cash. He was charged with attempted murder, assault, reckless endangerment, and various weapons violations. He was acquitted on on all charges except an illegal possession count. Okay, so pulled his gun, used it and was vindicated in court. He came out on top in the end, right?

Wrong. In 1996 the civil case went to trial and one of the punks was awarded $43 million. Goetz filed for bankruptcy.

With the harsh glare of public scrutiny on him as "the subway vigilante," consider what his life must have been like in the years -- not days, weeks or months, YEARS -- after the shooting. The impact on his career. His chances of getting a good job with this on his record. His personal life. When a civilian pulls a gun, it kicks off a long, long string of events, most of which are not good at all.

I would have given the kid my wallet instead.

Bottom line: The gun comes out of the holster ONLY if there is real, imminent danger to my life. That's what the law says in my state, and woe betide me if I don't follow it. Giving up a bike, your wallet, -- anything you own -- is trivial compared to the cost of defending yourself in both criminal and civil court. It's even less than trivial compared to the long-term consequences to your life.

The problem here is that you don't know if one of the punks has a knife and intends to harm you. Not to mention if you have a gun on you and decide to let them mug you and not fight back, well now they have your gun to.

Recently in San Jose, five guys came down from Oakland to rob a check cashing place. The owner allowed them to rob him and he didn't fight back. Before the five guys left, they shot him in the back of the head. Luckily, the bullet hit the guys finger (his hands were on the back of his head) which deflected the bullet enough that when it hit his skull it didn't penetrate his skull and he was only knocked unconscious. Criminals are unpredictable and just because you comply with them doesn't guarantee your safety.

However, I think were on the same page that no one ever wants to have to shoot somebody.

[massacremasses]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

The problem here is that you don't know if one of the punks has a knife and intends to harm you. Not to mention if you have a gun on you and decide to let them mug you and not fight back, well now they have your gun to.

Recently in San Jose, five guys came down from Oakland to rob a check cashing place. The owner allowed them to rob him and he didn't fight back. Before the five guys left, they shot him in the back of the head. Luckily, the bullet hit the guys finger (his hands were on the back of his head) which deflected the bullet enough that when it hit his skull it didn't penetrate his skull and he was only knocked unconscious. Criminals are unpredictable and just because you comply with them doesn't guarantee your safety.

However, I think were on the same page that no one ever wants to have to shoot somebody.

word. If I have a gun, someone tries to rob me, it will be pulled. No doubt. If they run great. If they do not, and they come at me, bullets will fly. I know judges and Jury's can be stupid, but if you pull out a gun you are allowed to have and "brandish" it because you fear harm to your person, then it would be pretty frightening if you were to have and legal consequences. Pulling it but not having to use it would be the best option. Of course if youre like me then you would be paranoid they were gonna try and find you and kill you later...

Really I find this a hard situation because of all of the "what ifs" but when protecting yourself becomes a crime.... ugh I dont wanna be around.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by massacremasses

that was your 666 post fyi... lol


I want to say hell yeah to that, but my moral convictions wont allow it...

Cool, that's spooky. Maybe that's why I've been feeling a bit devilish all of a sudden...

[paterick4o8]

I have to admit, I pack 2 guns with me at all times..

My biceps and my triceps. careful, they'll getcha

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by paterick4o8

I have to admit, I pack 2 guns with me at all times..

My biceps and my triceps. careful, they'll getcha

Your quads must be pea shooters then

[paterick4o8]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Your quads must be pea shooters then

only cuz they will shoot you right in your pee pee

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by paterick4o8

only cuz they will shoot you right in your pee pee

I will deflect them with these!

[paterick4o8]

so much for being able to have kids

[Kurgan]

Originally Posted by adouglas

In 1996 the civil case went to trial and one of the punks was awarded $43 million.

Laws that allow the criminal to sue the victim is one of the reasons why New York has massively high crime rates and their crime rates are skyrocketing.

If someone fights back against a career criminal that's out walking the streets instead of being in jail where they belong, not only do they stand a chance of going to jail LONGER than the criminal, but they also stand a chance of getting sued into oblivion. The UK has that same problem right now.

That's why I will NEVER live in a state that doesn't have "Castle Doctrine" laws where it's LEGAL to use force to defend yourself, your family, and your property.

I really DON'T agree with leaving the criminal alive and never will. Prison is called Crime College for a reason, they go in with 1 skill, and come out with 5 more. And they come out bigger, stronger, faster, and meaner than they were before from the daily workouts.

California alone spends $8.2 Billion dollars a year keeping prisoners alive at just over $47,000 per prisoner per year. A bullet costs a buck or two. It may sound callous and a bit psycho to some, but I don't care. If they're in my house, odds are they're armed (90% of all burglars are armed, 100% of home invaders are armed). If they're armed, they're dangerous, they're a threat to me and my family so a lethal force response is justified.

[akima]

Originally Posted by Kurgan

Laws that allow the criminal to sue the victim is one of the reasons why New York has massively high crime rates and their crime rates are skyrocketing.

If someone fights back against a career criminal that's out walking the streets instead of being in jail where they belong, not only do they stand a chance of going to jail LONGER than the criminal, but they also stand a chance of getting sued into oblivion. The UK has that same problem right now.

That's why I will NEVER live in a state that doesn't have "Castle Doctrine" laws where it's LEGAL to use force to defend yourself, your family, and your property.

I really DON'T agree with leaving the criminal alive and never will. Prison is called Crime College for a reason, they go in with 1 skill, and come out with 5 more. And they come out bigger, stronger, faster, and meaner than they were before from the daily workouts.

California alone spends $8.2 Billion dollars a year keeping prisoners alive at just over $47,000 per prisoner per year. A bullet costs a buck or two. It may sound callous and a bit psycho to some, but I don't care. If they're in my house, odds are they're armed (90% of all burglars are armed, 100% of home invaders are armed). If they're armed, they're dangerous, they're a threat to me and my family so a lethal force response is justified.

You do realise that some locked up "criminals" are just people who have been caught with weed right?

















...

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by akima

You do realise that some locked up "criminals" are just people who have been caught with weed right?

Unless it was a truckload, not in this state.

[massacremasses]

Possession of Marijuana here also doesnt have that harsh of penalties... Lot of good people smoke, I do not, but I have no problem with it... but I digress...

[LazyMaxy]

Originally Posted by Kurgan

Laws that allow the criminal to sue the victim is one of the reasons why New York has massively high crime rates and their crime rates are skyrocketing.

If someone fights back against a career criminal that's out walking the streets instead of being in jail where they belong, not only do they stand a chance of going to jail LONGER than the criminal, but they also stand a chance of getting sued into oblivion. The UK has that same problem right now.

That's why I will NEVER live in a state that doesn't have "Castle Doctrine" laws where it's LEGAL to use force to defend yourself, your family, and your property.

I really DON'T agree with leaving the criminal alive and never will. Prison is called Crime College for a reason, they go in with 1 skill, and come out with 5 more. And they come out bigger, stronger, faster, and meaner than they were before from the daily workouts.

California alone spends $8.2 Billion dollars a year keeping prisoners alive at just over $47,000 per prisoner per year. A bullet costs a buck or two. It may sound callous and a bit psycho to some, but I don't care. If they're in my house, odds are they're armed (90% of all burglars are armed, 100% of home invaders are armed). If they're armed, they're dangerous, they're a threat to me and my family so a lethal force response is justified.

what he said....

[MikeBudd]

Hahaha, I wish. Living in canada can be a problem sometimes.

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Where is the "I would if California did not suck" option?

Things are changing... check out calguns.net.

[squaregamer476]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

If you do have to shoot a robber, its really best if you don't stick around and call the cops. If its a known robber, the cops really aren't going to bust a gut trying to catch you.

An anonymous cop once told me about an incident where a thug was robbing people in a certain location. It had been going on for weeks. The cops would come out and take a report, but that's about as far as they could get with it. One day, they were called and they arrived to find the robber shot and bleeding profusely. They promptly secured the scene, checked the guy, and then secured the scene a few more times. When the guy finally died, they called it in. That's one robber that didn't get to sue anybody.

At least that's how it works in FL.

I was told, if i do shoot a robber, make sure he's dead so he doesnt come back to sue you. somethin' like that...

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by akima

You do realise that some locked up "criminals" are just people who have been caught with weed right?





#1: No one goes to jail for smoking weed
#2: Are stoners even helpful to society as a whole??











...

[GeorgiaHooligan]

If I got a weapon of any kind on me and someone tries to rob me, It's on. Any time you discharge a firearm at someone your going to be arrested until self defense is verified by law enforcement. Just because you give up the possesion that someone is attacking you for doesn't mean they wont kill or hurt you after you gave up the item.

[GeorgiaHooligan]

PA national forests

Onetruevibe, You can carry legally in a national forest?

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaHooligan

Onetruevibe, You can carry legally in a national forest?

Now defers to state law, so IF you can otherwise, then you can.

[blink]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Unless it was a truckload, not in this state.

hahaha..yea...no.

most are up for murder. "most"

[blink]

Originally Posted by MikeBudd

Hahaha, I wish. Living in canada can be a problem sometimes.

ccold weather...some people argue atleast your not dying of tsunamis


.... no, but im cold.


it's true.

[Kurgan]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaHooligan

If I got a weapon of any kind on me and someone tries to rob me, It's on. Any time you discharge a firearm at someone your going to be arrested until self defense is verified by law enforcement. Just because you give up the possesion that someone is attacking you for doesn't mean they wont kill or hurt you after you gave up the item.

This 10000%

You're three times more likely to get injured or killed when you cooperate fully with a career criminal than you are if you try to defend yourself, especially with a gun. I don't like those odds....give them what they want, they hurt you or put a bullet in you. Defend yourself and you've got less than a 10% chance of getting hurt or killed.

http://johnrlott.tripod.com/other/NCVS.html

As far as the weed comments goes, I wasn't talking about occasional offenders, I was talking about career criminals who wouldn't blink an eye when it came to hurting people to get what they wanted.

There are some hardcore judges out there (especially in Ohio) who hand out the absolute maximum sentence they can for the smallest amounts of any kind of drugs or drug paraphernalia, anything from a few months just for "residue" left behind in an ash tray, 6 months for a pipe with NO weed at all, and up to a full year for a single joint on a second offense.

Plus, even though a few states have allowed medical weed, it's still illegal under Federal Law, so "participate" at your own risk, the Feds don't care about state laws and don't think twice about trigger happy armed raids with shady search warrants.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaHooligan

If I got a weapon of any kind on me and someone tries to rob me, It's on. Any time you discharge a firearm at someone your going to be arrested until self defense is verified by law enforcement. Just because you give up the possesion that someone is attacking you for doesn't mean they wont kill or hurt you after you gave up the item.

In most cases, probably yes. But it depends on the circumstances. A few years back, there was a local homeowner who was being molested by a 15 year old and his gang of drug buddies. One night, the kid banged on the guy's front door at 1:00 AM with a gun. But unfortunately for him, the guy was ready and also had a gun. The kid was shot dead at his doorstep. The guy ran back inside and called 911 and the cops came. But while he was calling, one of the kid's drug buddies had gotten the gun and run off.

The cops came out, found no gun, but did not arrest the homeowner. It turns out that the kid was no stranger to LEOs and had been picked up that very night for vandalism and released to his mother who was told to keep him at home.

As the investigation continued, the DA eventually filed an arrest warrant. But there were no cops willing to serve it. Finally, after a few weeks, the homeowner just turned himself in. The homeowner pretty much lost everything to the lawyers, but ended up with 6 months probation.

This was when Florida enacted the stand your ground law that protects innocent people in cases like this.

So if you have to shoot someone in self defense, there is a good chance you will be arrested, but its not a sure bet. Especially in Florida.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by Kurgan

This 10000%

You're three times more likely to get injured or killed when you cooperate fully with a career criminal than you are if you try to defend yourself, especially with a gun. I don't like those odds....give them what they want, they hurt you or put a bullet in you. Defend yourself and you've got less than a 10% chance of getting hurt or killed.

http://johnrlott.tripod.com/other/NCVS.html

I love it when people cherry-pick statistics to make their case.

That very same table shows that you're far less likely to get injured (less than two-thirds as likely) if you simply run away, or try to, compared to pulling a gun. In fact, the BEST way to avoid injury, according to that survey, is to run away.

So sure, I carry, but the best option is to simply bug out. Fighting is wasteful and risky at the best of times, and most often plain stupid. It should never be the first option.

Go read Sun Tzu sometime. The Art of War is 2000 years old and full of really great advice when it comes to any kind of conflict, including:

"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."

"He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious. "

"Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. "

"Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat."

This last one is really important for anyone who chooses to arm themselves. A mindset that begins "If I'm confronted I'm going to pull my gun" is a tactic, not a strategy. "I'm going to get out of this alive" is a strategy. Do that any way you can. Throwing a wallet and running away is one of the tactics that can achieve that, and according to your own stats, the best one to try.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

The homeowner pretty much lost everything to the lawyers, but ended up with 6 months probation.

Yep. There's a positive outcome for ya.

What cannot be known is whether the homeowner actually had a choice here. Did he have the option of bugging out or defending his life from a position of strength, or did he simply choose to stand and defend his territory by airing out somebody standing on the stoop and beating on the door?

He probably lost the friggin' house anyway in the court action.

"Better than being dead" is a common argument, and it's valid up to a point. But it often assumes that the choices are always black-and-white, life-or-death. That's rarely true.

[Apocolypze01]

no offnese guys. I reckon guns are stupid and the owners are immature. Horrible, horrible inventions, that have just made the world a horrible place

[massacremasses]

Originally Posted by Apocolypze01

no offnese guys. I reckon guns can be stupid when the owners are immature.

fixed

Originally Posted by Apocolypze01

Horrible, horrible inventions, that have just made the world a horrible place

I am sure the bear that tried to eat my friend would agree... but shes dead because a gun saved his life... but yeah they are terrible inventions

[Apocolypze01]

You're entitled to your own opinion my friend.

[massacremasses]

As are you, but a general statement such as "guns are stupid and the owners are immature." is ignorant.

I lol'd at the "no offense"

"Hey no offense but you're stupid, but no offense."

I don't really think you're stupid, but generalized statements like you made are pretty damn stupid.

[adouglas]

Y'know, I think that the fist was a pretty poor idea. Look at all the physical abuse it's resulted in over the years.

Don't confuse the tool with the person who wields it. Clubs, knives, bricks, stones, ropes, automobiles, body odor, you name it... they're all weapons.

Let's eliminate guns in that homeowner scenario. Drugged-out kid beats on the door with a brick in his hand. Homeowner bashes his brains out with a baseball bat. Same outcome.

A gun makes it EASIER to project force, but it still takes a person to pull the trigger. Focus on that.

I must say that a lot of the people in my carry permit class really scared me. Not because they appeared to be criminals, but because they obviously did not respect the weapon for what it is.

[massacremasses]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Y'know, I think that the fist was a pretty poor idea. Look at all the physical abuse it's resulted in over the years.

Don't confuse the tool with the person who wields it. Clubs, knives, bricks, stones, ropes, automobiles, body odor, you name it... they're all weapons.

Let's eliminate guns in that homeowner scenario. Drugged-out kid beats on the door with a brick in his hand. Homeowner bashes his brains out with a baseball bat. Same outcome.

A gun makes it EASIER to project force, but it still takes a person to pull the trigger. Focus on that.

I must say that a lot of the people in my carry permit class really scared me. Not because they appeared to be criminals, but because they obviously did not respect the weapon for what it is.

When you value human life there are little to no problems... Its those who put little value on life who cause problems. I never want to kill someone. Plain and simple. But Id like to protect myself from those who dont respect my right to live...

[bdavison]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

If you do have to shoot a robber, its really best if you don't stick around and call the cops. If its a known robber, the cops really aren't going to bust a gut trying to catch you.

An anonymous cop once told me about an incident where a thug was robbing people in a certain location. It had been going on for weeks. The cops would come out and take a report, but that's about as far as they could get with it. One day, they were called and they arrived to find the robber shot and bleeding profusely. They promptly secured the scene, checked the guy, and then secured the scene a few more times. When the guy finally died, they called it in. That's one robber that didn't get to sue anybody.

At least that's how it works in FL.

DO NOT DO THIS!
If in the unfortunate event that you actually have to use lethal force, dial 911. Tell them you've just been attacked, and for them to send police and an ambulance....then hang up. 911 calls are recorded, and if you go blabbering on...its gonna end up as evidence. Keep it short and to the point.

If you dont do this...its highly likely that you will end up infront of the District Attorney with a attempted manslaughter or murder charge, when the bad guy either turns up dead with a unreported gun shot wound, or shows up in the hospital saying you shot him for no good reason.

Three rules.
Ability, Intent, and Opportunity...if it they aren't present from the attacker, you are probably going to jail for a while.

1. Only use lethal force when its "use it or somebody dies".
2. If you do have to use lethal force, be effective and decisive.
3. When the assailant stops, YOU stop.
4. SHUT UP! Get legal council, and let them handle it.

Eventually someone is going to have to answer questions, and you'd better damn well be able to be able to articulate how exactly how your life was in danger at the moment you pulled the trigger.

[greg737]

I must say that a lot of the people in my carry permit class really scared me. Not because they appeared to be criminals, but because they obviously did not respect the weapon for what it is.

Kinda like "that guy" in your MSF class who (in spite of all the information being provided) was so obviously headed for a massive crash.