Why Yamaha, Suzuki don't make 250cc Sport bikes?

[Heed]

When it comes to beginners and quarter liter sport bikes, the only choices we really have are from Honda, Kawasaki, or even Hyosung. So why don't other major brands like Yamaha or Suzuki join the club?

I know it would cost a fortune for a company to introduce a new model, but the way I see it, there's only two choices - the Honda CBR250R or the Kawasaki Ninja 250R. There's really only two large companies dominating that market.

In addition; why isn't there anything size-wise in between 250cc and 500cc? As a mature beginner, I'd prefer to start on a 250r and take baby steps, but the next move up from a 250cc seems to be twice that amount.

[kingkang204]

Originally Posted by Heed

When it comes to beginners and quarter liter sport bikes, the only choices we really have are from Honda, Kawasaki, or even Hyosung. So why don't other major brands like Yamaha or Suzuki join the club?

I know it would cost a fortune for a company to introduce a new model, but the way I see it, there's only two choices - the Honda CBR250R or the Kawasaki Ninja 250R. There's really only two large companies dominating that market.

In addition; why isn't there anything size-wise in between 250cc and 500cc? As a mature beginner, I'd prefer to start on a 250r and take baby steps, but the next move up from a 250cc seems to be twice that amount.

There really *wasn't* that big of a market for 250cc motorcycles. In Europe, where there are licensing requirements, 125cc motorcycles are required(I think). Also actually in Canada and some other countries there is a Ninja 400.

I wish they would make a bike that looks like the ninja 250/600 in a 400cc displacement (v-twin/paralel twin configuration).

[Heed]

Ah. I see the Ninja 400r. Looks good and it's fuel injected.

$7500 MSRP lol

[alex.s]

they do.

they just don't sell here because in america, bigger is better.

yamaha has lots, the fz16/bison for one. suzuki also sells them

[bdavison]

I keep hoping Yamaha will step up and drop a re-tuned Raptor 350 engine into a R6 frame for us.

[DarC]

Like mentioned, the market here would not support that much effort in their eyes. They take those products to where the profit is. There are tons of small displacement bikes out there.

I have actually seen a new 125/150/250?? pop up at the local Kawi dealer, I didn't look into it much but is doesn't look horrible. Some mexican bike I think.

In the urban centers I think there is more desire but there is plenty of supply already.

[Bunker]

I dont understand why Suzuki and Yamaha have not jumped on the 250 sport bike bandwagon either... good point you brought up OP. Now that Honda has introduced a 250 sport bike in the states (even though they have offered a 125cc sport bike in canada) maybe the other manufacturers will try to nudge in on the market. Bunker

[Kurgan]

All four of the "Big Four" bike makers used to have 4 cylinder 250cc 4 stroke 20,000 rpm screamers.

The best thing each one could do is resurrect those old engines & frames and smack some new suspension & bodywork on them, maybe a simple EFI unit instead of the old carbs, and Bang, they've got a 250CC contender with minimal effort and R&D cost. Maybe add a little R&D and make a new frame.

They could release the 4 cylinders detuned down to Euro spec 33hp "Beginners" requirements, and let people retune the bikes themselves to get 50hp or more out of them without forced induction. The EFI would help with that with a limiter function like some literbikes already have.

I'd buy a Yamaha "R2" in a heartbeat if it had the same styling as the R6.

[kingkang204]

Originally Posted by Kurgan

All four of the "Big Four" bike makers used to have 4 cylinder 250cc 4 stroke 20,000 rpm screamers.

The best thing each one could do is resurrect those old engines & frames and smack some new suspension & bodywork on them, maybe a simple EFI unit instead of the old carbs, and Bang, they've got a 250CC contender with minimal effort and R&D cost. Maybe add a little R&D and make a new frame.

They could release the 4 cylinders detuned down to Euro spec 33hp "Beginners" requirements, and let people retune the bikes themselves to get 50hp or more out of them without forced induction. The EFI would help with that with a limiter function like some literbikes already have.

I'd buy a Yamaha "R2" in a heartbeat if it had the same styling as the R6.

The only problem with bringing back the old bikes is the emissions. I am sure those bikes wouldn't pass Euro standards now. But I am with you, if they still have bikes like that I would never get anything bigger.

the 2 stroke vs 4 stroke thing is stupid and very generalized. If the Aprilia Rs 125 passes Euro 3 specs why would it not pass less strict U.S Standards (Cali = Exception) I wish I could ride a Rs 125 on the road, it would be so much fun.

[KawiKid860]

All four of the "Big Four" bike makers used to have 4 cylinder 250cc 4 stroke 20,000 rpm screamers.

The best thing each one could do is resurrect those old engines & frames and smack some new suspension & bodywork on them, maybe a simple EFI unit instead of the old carbs, and Bang, they've got a 250CC contender with minimal effort and R&D cost. Maybe add a little R&D and make a new frame.

They could release the 4 cylinders detuned down to Euro spec 33hp "Beginners" requirements, and let people retune the bikes themselves to get 50hp or more out of them without forced induction. The EFI would help with that with a limiter function like some literbikes already have.

I'd buy a Yamaha "R2" in a heartbeat if it had the same styling as the R6.

Those 20k rpm screamers were horrible for beginners tho, they had no low end and were just as powerful as a 500cc bike. Kawasaki and honda are both aiming their 250s at beginners (as we all know) so something like those bikes wouldn't do them much good besides pleasing a few fans.

[kyrider]

I don't understand it either because both Yam and Suz have some good 250cc atv's. Maybe with the success of the new 250's they will get in the market and competition can only make things better.

[bdavison]

The big four have missed an opportunity here. They have all attempted hitting the small displacement market at one time or other, but they just keep doing it wrong. The only one that came close was Aprilia.

Aprilia dropped the RS50 and RS125 here in the states. And both were outstanding examples of what can be done with small displacement bikes. Unfortunately...they missed the boat on two factors. One, they are two-stroke, and the tree-huggers nixed them. Two, they couldnt create enough supply-wise to keep the cost down.

Here is what needs to happen.

Yamaha - They need to take the existing R6, and put the raptor 350 engine in it, then they need to put a water-cooled head on the motor. This would give them a bike with tons of torque, and plenty of speed if geared right. It would downright smoke the ninja 250R and the honda CBR250.

Kawasaki - They need to dump the 650R/400R off the line. Take the zx-6r chassis, and make it available with 4 different motors. The 250cc, 500cc, 650cc, and the 600 I4. In one simple move like this, they could create an unstoppable lineup for a few reasons.
One, it would be great for riders planning on upgrading. You could upgrade to another bike without having to learn a new bikes charecteristics...it would be the same bike with more power.
Two, it would make their costs go down in production, because they could reduce tooling, and parts from 5 bikes to 3 bikes.
Three, it would allow third-party manufacturers to better service their line of bikes with upgrade parts, mainly because they dont have to design parts for 5 different bikes.
Four, it would encourage some people to go for the zx-10 or zx-14 because they want a entirely different bike...a huge selling point for Kawasaki, since those bikes cost more.

Honda - Take the CBR600 chassis and offer it with 3 different motors. The 250cc, the 650 from the 650 dualsport, and the 600 I4.

Suzuki - Who cares what suzuki does.

[bdavison]

Lets just hope when Yamaha drops their entry on the market, they dont blow it. Its time one of these manufacturers gives us a small displacement bike with a true race chassis.

[Cuongism]

You may be oversimplifying it a bit though. It's not just about the engine size (which probably won't all fit in the same chassis); SS's have better suspension, brakes, wheels, swingarms, etc.

If they add all those upgrades to a 250, costs go up, bike is heavier, higher seat height, etc. If you're not adding those elements, then the frame doesn't suit it.

I also prefer to have more options vs less. In a way, a few I4's already have different "engines" by allowing you to choose different modes.

[bdavison]

It wont be heavier, actually it would be about the same.
The ZX-6R with a 250R motor in it would shave about 20lbs....putting it right back close to the weight of the standard 250R.

Advantage is instead of having a welded tube frame and a simple box swingarm and weenie shock and forks....you'd have a real frame and suspension in a bike the same weight as the 250R.

I think it could work, and work well.

Im tired of these "halfsports" like the 650R. If your gonna make a sportbike, then make a sportbike. Dont give us some harley in sportbike fairings and tell us its a sportbike.

[Cuongism]

If they upgrade all that though, there's no way they can keep the costs down. Also, they lose a part of their market because of a higher seat height and larger wheels.

[Heed]

If the CBR had the same looks as the Ninja 250r, and was around as long as the Ninja was, I'd probably go with the CBR.

-EFI
-Sexy digital instrument panel
-Bigger rear tyre


But it looks freakin ugly.

Yamaha should bring the YZF-R125 to the USA. They could seriously give Honda and Kawi a scare I think. And it's even a 4 stroke. Doesn't look bad at all. It is FI and about 70 lbs lighter than the Ninja 250r granted it is only a 125cc. I bet the MPG is fantastic. I'd have a tough time choosing between this and the 250r.

[Shaol1n Monk]

Originally Posted by Ren13

I hate the mentality that bigger=better, because we in America lose out on a lot of cool bikes that way. All anyone cares about here is "wen da next gixxar comin out yo"

i hate the american mentality too for the most part. last nite a young guy came into my club with a brand spankin new jacket and i asked him what he rode in on, he said cbr1000rr. i told him he passed my 250 on the way in and he scoffed and said "250? thats it?"

i felt like bein like "yea thats it, i really dont need to go over 100mph anywhere on the street and my track bike is a zx-6R you mini goomba meathead"

there are no beginner regulations here in US so idiots like this guy go buy a 1000 as their first bike and dont even know how to ride, they just see it as a status symbol. i could be wrong about this guy, but he seemed like a noob to me.

"wens da next gixxer comin out yo? i want a 3200r yo!"

[Lil_Green_Demon]

That Yamaha R125 looks soooooooo sexy. I would give my Ninja 250R up for it in a heart beat. Yes, serious. I'll put on my Scorpion jacket to avoid any burns after this post. Hahah!
The whole "bigger is better" mentality in America is retarded. It's hilarious when guys who have a hard time taking turns on their 600cc+ bikes start talking **** after getting passed around a twisty road by me on a 250R.
I know a dude who bought an '04 Z1000 as his first bike. We went on a ride through a twisty road a few weeks back and I pretty much killed him without even trying. Then he told me that he prefers "straightline performance" over "going through some stupid twisty roads."
Why? "Because how often do you have to make turns on the freeway?" LOL

[bdavison]

The reason the Ninja 250R is Kawasaki's best selling bike is because it IS a small displacement bike that looks like a full blown sportbike. People can claim they bought one because its cheap, economical, blah blah blah...

But money talks and BS walks. You know darn well you bought it because it was the only option that screams sportbike without the big engine.

Honestly, if the CBR250 had looked like this....



Answer this question...how many of you would still have ninjas?

You can lie and say you'd stick with the ninja, but you know that you would have put the ninja on craigslist, and went for the CBR250, EVEN though you would be sacrificing some power just to get the suspension, and looks.

You can make the baddest most powerful bike on the planet, but if its packaged in crap, and looks like crap....Americans wont buy it.

Look at the 650R. In all reality, it rides great, and has a really nice engine in it....but most people hate its guts because kawasaki put it in a faux sportbike package.

Somewhere along the line the manufacturers got the idea that we wanted a upright seating position cruiser and were willing to settle for semi-sportbike suspension and appearance. Big mistake.

Right now, the ninja is the only choice. Its real close, but it would have been unstoppable if they had done two main things.
1. Dropped the handlebars, or made it possible to drop the handlebars to true sportbike ergos.
2. Dropped the box swingarm and hokey monoshock for a real sportbike suspension.

To be honest...if given the choice between FI or a better suspension and full race ergos...they can keep the FI in my opinion.

Mark my words, the first one of the big four to drop a leaned forward, racing inspired small displacement bike on the US market will cause an explosion in the US motorcycling scene. If you dont belive me...think about what would happen if tommorow Aprilia said they were putting a street legal RS250 in the states.

As much as I love my ninja...it would be on craigslist tommorow for a street legal R4/R2 or RS250, provided they didnt goof it up by "semi-sportbiking" it.

[Xoulrath]

Originally Posted by Ren13

I'm honestly not surprised at the state of the American motorcycle market. No wonder bike sales are down, half the stock of each manufacturer is repetitive bullshit bikes like the 650r. And jesus christ, what is suzuki doing? Gs500f, then the sv650sf, then a gsx650f? They all look the same and are all twins. THREE bike models that look the same, within 150cc of eachother. What the ****?

GS500 is a parallel twin.

SV650 is a v-twin.

GSX650 is an I-4.

They may not appeal to you, but they appeal to plenty of other riders.

I don't care much for the 500 at all, but I'd take a 500F before I took a Ninja 500 based on ergonomics and how I fit on the bike.

I love the SV series, particularly the older and, in my opinion, better looking models from the early 2000's. I have heard nothing but praise for these machines. Inexpensive and more than enough for the street. In fact, if a local dealer had even bothered to try to meet me halfway on price, I would have an '09 SV650SF in my driveway instead of my used '08 ZX.

The GSX is certainly not the best looking bike out there, but it does what it was meant to do well. It is an everyday jack-of-all-trades motorcycle. It is going to be capable enough when legal limits are considered on back roads. It has the capability to tour. It can commute. Hell, you could even take it to a track day to have some fun on it and probably pass lesser riders, just like some of the 250 members here do.

Remember, when it comes to looks, you only see it when you get on and off. The rest of the time you are riding it, and if it rides well, then who the hell cares what it looks like? Unless you are only concerned with what others think of you? Oh wait, you are:

Originally Posted by Ren13

I would rather die than be seen on a POS gsx650f.

Let me know how that attitude works out for you.

[bdavison]

Originally Posted by Heed

Can you imagine what would happen if Yamaha stuck the raptor 350 engine in this chassis and tossed it in the US market...

There would be a stampede at the local dealership.

[Xoulrath]

I'd buy one in a heart beat.

I just don't think the American market can support all of these small displacement sportbikes. For every person like me that lives in a place like NW Georgia with access to some of the best riding roads in America within a few hours or less and plenty of great local roads to ride, there are probably three people who live in places like Florida. Flat, straight roads don't sell sportbikes. Interstates don't sell sportbikes. At least not sportbikes without POWER.

Small displacement is popular in the rest of the world for a number of reasons. Obviously, restrictions probably have the most impact on the market. Though I would say that maintenance and fuel costs weigh heavily as well. In addition, especially looking at some places in Europe, smaller bikes are simply better for urban use and they excel on the small, serpentine roads that cover a lot of the continent. Even so, a standard is a more practical bike for urban areas, not a sportbike. The areas that aren't developed as well are certainly better served by jack-of-all-trades bikes like the Ninjette that do so much with so little, and with few compromises.

I agree with what you are asking for. However, all of that fancy sportbike tech is expensive and it doesn't translate well to other models. Modern 600s and literbikes are so highly specialized now that they really are nothing more than race bikes with headlights. There is no economic incentive for manufacturers to make the small displacement track ready bike we are asking for.

[Shaol1n Monk]

Originally Posted by Lil_Green_Demon

It's hilarious when guys who have a hard time taking turns on their 600cc+ bikes start talking **** after getting passed around a twisty road by me on a 250R.
I know a dude who bought an '04 Z1000 as his first bike. We went on a ride through a twisty road a few weeks back and I pretty much killed him without even trying. Then he told me that he prefers "straightline performance" over "going through some stupid twisty roads."
Why? "Because how often do you have to make turns on the freeway?" LOL

and it takes alot less riding skill to go straight real fast than to take a bunch of corners at speed. again american mentality: lets watch guys drive in circles ie nascar instead of watching guys who actually have driving skill ie F1.

thats also why motoGP is not as popular in america and instead u see a bunch of clowns on sport bikes with extended swingarms for drag racing.

[LoD575]

That Yamaha looks damn sexy.





Like others have stated the first major company to put out a small displacement bike with race inspired ergos and suspension would dominate the US market.

[Heed]

This sucks. I wish I never knew the R125 existed. Now I want one more than anything.

[Heed]

Originally Posted by Ren13

I agree. And the only bike that surpasses my desire for a r125 is an aprillia rs250 2stroke. That is literally it. :O Then comes the zx10 in third, and so on;

whats the difference between a 2 stroke and a 4 stroke? is the 2 stroke just more explosive?

[LoD575]

Originally Posted by Heed

whats the difference between a 2 stroke and a 4 stroke? is the 2 stroke just more explosive?

Use Google. It will give you a lot of information on 2-strokes and 4-strokes.

[Boom King]

Not bad looking at all for a 125

[kingkang204]

But the thing with the 2 stroke is that the RS125 (2-Stroke) can be ridden in European countries, which means it passed their emissions standards. It's because the U.S put a stamp on 2-strokes saying no. That being said if you check out the Rs125 forums there are some people that got them street legalized by putting the required equipment on the bike; mirrors, turn signals, license plater holder ect...

I've actually considered trying to get one street legalized and if it fails, at least you have a BADA$% track bike!

[2011Ninja250R]

I think Honda jumping into the 250cc sport bike market is a sign that other manufacturers are likely to follow. Sales on bikes have taken a beating but the 250cc bikes have always been a constant sell.

Triumph is going to be releasing the "Street Single" soon. Granted it isn't technically a sportbike, but it's close and it's aimed at a segment of this market.

[Reddoak]

Originally Posted by bdavison

...
Kawasaki - They need to dump the 650R/400R off the line. Take the zx-6r chassis, and make it available with 4 different motors. The 250cc, 500cc, 650cc, and the 600 I4. In one simple move like this, they could create an unstoppable lineup for a few reasons. ...

Interesting idea, but I think you (and apparently many others here) don't understand the sales targets of the 650r. They aren't aimed towards buyers who want a race replica, they are aimed towards buyers who want a sporty bike without all the negative aspects that go with a dedicated (ZX-6r) sport bike, such as:
1. Higher price
2. Higher insurance
3. Increased complexity
4. Sportbike ergonomics
5. higher difficulty to ride

The 650r is considerably different than a ZX-6r for many reasons. People who want a ZX and get a 650r instead are going to be disappointed.

For what I want a bike for (occasional fun and a cheap ride to work) a ZX would have not been my choice. Even with the 650 motor in the same frame, why pay for suspension I don't need or even want, all on an uncomfortable bike? Then again, I saved a bit of money on worthless (to me) plastic and bought the naked version anyways.

I'd like to see the other bike Japanese manufactures offer competition to the Ninja 250. While that's not the best thing for Kawi necessarily, it's better for the small end of the bike spectrum.

[jonthechron]

Originally Posted by Heed

Ah. I see the Ninja 400r. Looks good and it's fuel injected.

$7500 MSRP lol

Where do you see this? It would be like 5900$ MSRP if it sold in the us.

[jonthechron]

Originally Posted by Bunker

I dont understand why Suzuki and Yamaha have not jumped on the 250 sport bike bandwagon either... good point you brought up OP. Now that Honda has introduced a 250 sport bike in the states (even though they have offered a 125cc sport bike in canada) maybe the other manufacturers will try to nudge in on the market. Bunker

Hold on - Honda JUST jumped into 250 this year and they aren't even near as popular as Kawasaki. Give it some time, I don't think any manufacturer can produce a sport bike overnight

[jonthechron]

Originally Posted by Ren13

This man is a f*cking genius.

If Kawasaki offered a 250cc or 500cc twin in the zx6r body, I'd buy it in an instant. Those looks with that low insurance and beast mpg would be like heaven.

The most undesirable bikes for me are the "inbetweens." 650r, gs500f, gsx650f, etc. They look, frankly, like absolute ****, and I'm surprised that people buy them.

When you put those ugly ass high bars and that atrocious banana seat on a 650r, what the **** is that? I thought this was a 21st century "sport bike". Hands down one of the most undesirable bikes I've ever seen. I don't get the purpose of them at all. If you want comfy, get a cruiser or a standard. They are faux-sportbikes, no doubt about it.

I wouldnt want to ride a 600 i4 that I know is available with a smaller engine. I definitly wouldn't want people to think i ride a 250 when i'm actually going to be in a 600 i4!

[ducducgooseit]

Many here are too young to remember the 1980s. All four major japanese companies had 250cc sport bikes for sale in the USA then. Some two stroke, some four stroke. The manufacturers stopped selling them because they were not selling enough to be profitable in the USA.

The rest of the world has a very competitive 250/125 market whether because of laws or wealth. The USA, in general, does not buy small displacement sport bikes. That's why the smaller bikes aren't sold here. Chicken and the egg you say? By damn they should try you say?

See my first paragraph.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Heed

-EFI
-Sexy digital instrument panel
-Bigger rear tyre

As much as I like the look of fatter tires, remember that our Ninja's skinny rear tire is what gives us such incredible flickability in corners, so there are arguments for smaller is better.

[Xoulrath]

Originally Posted by ally99

our Ninja's skinny rear tire is what gives us such incredible flickability in corners, so there are arguments for smaller is better.

I'm not entirely convinced of this. From a physics perspective, I understand that it makes perfect sense, at least at a theoretical level.

From a real world standpoint I just don't believe this is true for everyone. For example, I am a large guy and I pretty much manhandle my 600 with no problem. I don't feel that there is any real difference one way or the other. If anything, the clip-ons make the 600 that much quicker to respond to my inputs.

More telling is the gyroscopic effect of the engine on handling. There are many places I ride that have tight corners or fast directional changes which cause me to have lift, however briefly, on the 600. On the 250 I never lifted, EVER. There was simply not enough force from the bike to resist my changing its direction.

So, yes, a 250 is more nimble than any other bike, save a 125 2-stroke like the Aprillia. But it has far more to do with the engine and less to do with the tires. Honda equips its CBR250 with a 140 rear and most reviewers have said it turns a bit quicker than the Ninjette.

[Heed]

So yeah, put that 350cc in the Yamaha and bring to the USA.

Are you listening YAMAHA?

[bdavison]

Originally Posted by jonthechron

I wouldnt want to ride a 600 i4 that I know is available with a smaller engine. I definitly wouldn't want people to think i ride a 250 when i'm actually going to be in a 600 i4!

R you kidding? Seriously...who wouldnt want a "sleeper".