600 vs 1000

[Apex]

So what are the main differences other than HP and cc's?

Are parts more expensive for the 1000's?

My wife may be opening up to the idea of my upgrading, so I'm just curious what are some of the main differences. I've been out of the loop on the bikes for a while when it comes to technical specifications, etc.

If she says yes, most likely would be Honda or Kawi, though Yamaha and Suzuki wouldn't be totally out of the question. Price would be the main factor.

So if you could point out some differences, that would help me out some. Also, I know some of you have open classers, and some have 600's. What gas mileage are you all getting? What octane are you running? etc.

Thanks guys/gals.

[zilaniz]

the liter bike is going to be more heavy and expensive. The power delivery is also different, 600's are a lot more high strung. Could also check out the triumph daytona 675. Going from a 250 to a liter bike is a HUGE leap, too much throttle and the front end will lift right up with ease

[Flashmonkey]

We talkin' 1000 CC supersport bike? Cuz that's like...crazy talk

What are they making now? 180hp or something like that?

[backinthesaddleagain]

Insurance could be a big difference 250 to 600 to 1000, if you are talking all out sport bike. If an FZ1 or Z1000 then not so much more (depending on age/driving record/etc).

BTW although a bit heavier, and slower on top end (God forbid, haha) people who are riding the new crossplane R1 on the street seem to be enjoying them, and no valve checks for 26K miles. Guy around here just moved up from new R1 to new BMW S1000RR due to top end - go figure.

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by Apex

So what are the main differences other than HP and cc's?

Trust me, those two alone are plenty enough. Weight, handling charicteristics, and power delivery should also be added to that mix, as well. Don't forget insurance costs! The 600s are much closer to the 250 you're used to than any of the liter bike options. True, the liter bikes have TONS of torque, but rev a 600 and it's there, too, and MUCH more forgiving of any mistakes.


Yes, parts of liter bikes are more expensive when you break them, but that's not to say that parts for even older 600s are cheap (or plentiful)! Ask me how I know!!!! (I recently was eaten by a rogue manhole cover on my 09, lots of $$$ damage for mostly cosmetic parts).


Check out some of the threads here: Ex Ninjette Lair

LOTS of good info on various CC and style upgrades.

IMHO, if the 250 is your first bike and you have no other experience (speaking strictly sport/super sport bikes here. Cruisers are a different animal altogether):

• Upgrade ->MODERN (2006 or newer GSXR/ZX6R/R6/etc) 600cc inline 4 (learned to ride on a 250) = MAJOR step up
• Upgrade ->Dated (2005 or older, or a ZZR or YZF) 600cc inline 4 (learned to ride on a 250) = Moderate step up, but not nearly as large as a more modern bike
• Upgrade ->650 twin (learned to ride on a 250) = FUN step up
• Upgrade ->1000cc inline 4 (learned to ride on a 250) = SUICIDE upgrade

YMMV, but I see motorcycle statistics first hand for the Navy and Marine Corps, as I'm a motorcycle safety coordinator for my command. Note that we have MANDATORY training (MSF, ERC, and Sport Bike) and all sorts of rodeos, safety inspections, and safety stand downs. Theoretically, we should be safer than the general public, but then again, the upgrade chart I posted above is based on first hand observation.

Not to say that major cc upgrading can't be done safely, but it takes plenty of humility and impulse control. Power on tap for the new, modern fuel injected bikes is RIGHT NOW with a twist of the wrist, and most of the newer 600cc supersports (and ALL of the liter bikes) have the torque to lift the front wheel in the first several gears. Compared to the little 250, the 600s and 1000s are much more planted in the turns, but slower reacting and feel sluggish compared to the quick turn in and 'flickability' of the 250 chasiss (the liter bikes, being heavier and longer, are much more noted for this than the 600s), although the difference is more like 'feel' than actual 'performance'.

The modern suspension on the bigger bikes, though.....WOW. And the proper tires and suspension set up in stock trim will stick it like glue to the road surface like the 250 only dreams about in anything other than race trim.

Originally Posted by Apex

What gas mileage are you all getting? What octane are you running? etc.

My 09 ZX6R's stock speedo is about 7.7% optimistic, but I put a speedoDRD in it. I'm getting an honest 39-42mpg, depending on how I ride for that tank. 3.5 - 4 gallon fill ups are common with about 135-160 miles between fill ups, depending on riding style! The sticker on the bike says to use at least 91 octane (RON+MON/2). Around here the only options are 87, 89, or 93. I get the same performance out of 89 or 93 mpg wise (can't say I notice any difference performance wise, either), and usually fill up half way with one or the other to average it out when on a half tank.

[ScraitT]

I have no experience with either, but I have read that 1000s are actually easier to ride because they have power everywhere, where as 600s only make power in their higher RPMs. You don't have to search for gears on a 1000, it just goes when you hit the gas.

Some numbers from Sportrider
0-60 numbers are form random sites, so they aren't necessarily comparable since different riders get different numbers, but it gives an idea.

2008 Zx6R
3.6 0-60mph
3.7 60-80mph
11.1@128mph Quarter Mile

2008 Zx10R
2.9 0-60mph
2.9 60-80mph
9.9@147mph Quarter Mile



And some non SS bikes.

2007 Z1000
2.9 0-60mph
3.3 60-80
10.9@124mph Quarter Mile

2008 Versys 650
3.9 0-60mph
4.45mph 60-80
12.4@104mph Quarter Mile

2008 Concourse 1400
2.9 0-60
4.28mph 60-80
10.5@130mph Quarter Mile

I consider ANY of those bikes insanely fast, even the "lowely" versys...but those numbers don;t tell how the bike rides and accelerates at say 40 mph in 5th gear. The Z1000 sounds like the friendliest to me though.

[Alex]

If we're comparing top-line 600's and the same top-line 1000's from the big 4, here are my thoughts...

Purchase cost isn't terribly different, parts costs aren't terribly different, insurance costs may not be terribly different (depending on circumstances), running costs are similar, though the literbike can be harder on rear tire wear. MPG is about the same, and mostly varies by rider size & the usage of the bike rather than the cc differences. Bike weight is more similar than one might think going in, as is handling. A modern 1000 with modern tires feels about as flickable as a 600 did no more than 5 years ago. That said, a brand-new 600 is likely to have lighter steering and be easier to bend back and forth. The weight difference in motion is related to the significantly heavier crankshaft necessary on the 1000. And when that crankshaft is spinning at 10k revs and higher, there is a very significant gyroscopic force that takes more effort to get the bike moving back and forth. On the street where revs are lower, there is less noticeable a difference.

Both of them have more than enough power to push someone down the road at very high speeds. The literbike can be ridden out of its powerband and has significant torque at all engine speeds, while a modern 600 has a much peakier powerband. For me, that makes the literbike more enjoyable as it can be ridden at 30% and it's still responsive and entertaining, while a 600 only comes alive when you are riding it at a higher "energy" level. For a track only bike, I really prefer a 600, but for a do-it-all street + trackday bike, I've enjoyed the larger machines. YMMV.

From a safety standpoint, both can be equally unsafe. For the very unskilled rider, the surprising amount of power available on the larger bike even at low revs can work out poorly, but for someone with a reasonable amount of experience, I wouldn't necessarily classify a modern 1000 as significantly more dangerous than a modern 600. For what it's worth, Keith Code believes he sees fewer crashes on the road and on the track on 1000's, as people are generally more careful with applying the power rather than just whacking it open as you can get away with sometimes on the smaller bike.

[Apex]

Yeah Alex, I agree with Keith. I honestly think I'd respect the 1000 more and treat it responsibly.

I have been on SS machines, but nothing over the top...just putting around. I do like the usable power you speak of about the open-class bikes. I'm a V8 guy, I've done drag racing and auto-x. I'm used to having power down low. Pushing the vehicle less in normal riding circumstances due to the torque is what I'd like.

Some have mentioned older SV1000's, which that did appeal to me. I guess with what I have read, the main issue would be insurance costs. I've been on and off bikes since '97, so I am pretty decent on them. I actually prefer a bike that I don't need as much throttle input to get it to do what I want it to.

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by Apex

Some have mentioned older SV1000's, which that did appeal to me. I guess with what I have read, the main issue would be insurance costs. I've been on and off bikes since '97, so I am pretty decent on them. I actually prefer a bike that I don't need as much throttle input to get it to do what I want it to.

V-Twin? Not that I've ever ridden one...

I will recommend a gixxer 750, though. Not sure what kind of insurance savings you'll see from that, however.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by Flashmonkey

We talkin' 1000 CC supersport bike? Cuz that's like...crazy talk

What are they making now? 180hp or something like that?

Yep... CBR 1000RR Owner here!

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

Yep... CBR 1000RR Owner here!

Originally Posted by Flashmonkey

V-Twin? Not that I've ever ridden one...

I will recommend a gixxer 750, though. Not sure what kind of insurance savings you'll see from that, however.

I can provide some info on insurance for comparison. Keep in mind I have a clean driving record and these are Jax, Florida rates. Should show how the rates progress up as cc's rise. Someone also correct me if I wrong but I believe rates are based on 200cc-599cc and then 600-1000+. The 750 would still put you in the higher rates.

My 2008 Ninja 250R cost a little over $16 a month.
My 2009 Ninja 250R SE cost a little over $17 a month.
My 2007 CBR 1000RR cost a little over $52 a month.
I used to have 2005 CBR 600RR and I believe it was in the low $40's a month

Hope this helps...

[backinthesaddleagain]

Split the diff and go GSXR 750 or Duc 848!!

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by zilaniz

the liter bike is going to be more heavy and expensive. The power delivery is also different, 600's are a lot more high strung. Could also check out the triumph daytona 675. Going from a 250 to a liter bike is a HUGE leap, too much throttle and the front end will lift right up with ease

I find the liter to be about the same weight and same price (once the initial purchase is done). With the right amount of throttle the front end will lift just like you want it to.

Originally Posted by Flashmonkey

What are they making now? 180hp or something like that?

Yep

Originally Posted by Alex

If we're comparing top-line 600's and the same top-line 1000's from the big 4, here are my thoughts...

Purchase cost isn't terribly different, parts costs aren't terribly different, running costs are similar, though the literbike can be harder on rear tire wear. MPG is about the same, and mostly varies by rider size & the usage of the bike rather than the cc differences. Bike weight is more similar than one might think going in, as is handling. A modern 1000 with modern tires feels about as flickable as a 600 . That On the street where revs are lower, there is less noticeable a difference.

The literbike can be ridden out of its powerband and has significant torque at all engine speeds, while a modern 600 has a much peakier powerband. For me, that makes the literbike more enjoyable as it can be ridden at 30% and it's still responsive and entertaining. For a track only bike, I really prefer a 600, but for a do-it-all street + trackday bike, I've enjoyed the larger machines. YMMV.

From a safety standpoint, both can be equally unsafe. For what it's worth, Keith Code believes he sees fewer crashes on the road and on the track on 1000's, as people are generally more careful with applying the power rather than just whacking it open as you can get away with sometimes on the smaller bike.

Easier to ride a liter, quieter in the neighborhood (lower RPMs), torque down low for better gas milage, whacking the throttle (on the track) is mind boggeling fun (don't do it on the street), I find the handling to be perfect (feels like a smaller bike when set up right).

Originally Posted by Apex

I honestly think I'd respect the 1000 more and treat it responsibly.
Pushing the vehicle less in normal riding circumstances due to the torque is what I'd like.

Once used to the power a good trashing will wet your pants (in a good way).

Originally Posted by Flashmonkey

I will recommend a gixxer 750, though.

I recommend a 750 also (if you don't want a liter).

My youngest son went from having the 250 for a few months to a liter. He has been riding it for over a year with no problems (except rear tires). He is still only 17.

If you get a liter, start off at the track and learn how to use the bike properly. It will save your life on the street.

They say the 600 is a better track bike but at the track we use I have no problems saying "bye bye" to the 600s. The lap record is on a 1000 also (not set by me).

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

If you get a liter, start off at the track and learn how to use the bike properly. It will save your life on the street.

That's pretty reasonable advice. Despite my complaints about increased gas mileage and tire usage with the 750 (as opposed to a 250)...i have a feeling my next bike is going to be some kind of SS liter bike ().

I'll make it a point to get some track tutelage first, as I've always wanted to do that as well!

[patw]

I was able to test ride a few bikes early last month and I have to say the 1000's felt so much better to ride than the 600's. I could almost ride any speed I wanted in any gear I wanted. It's a bit odd, but the transmission becomes like an automatic Torque was everywhere, in every gear at every RPM. For example, I was up to 40km/hr before I had the clutch fully out in 1st gear, and on some bikes I was up to 110km/hr before I was looking to shift to 2nd. That was a "tame" Litre bike too (FZ1 = detuned R1), not even a super sport!

The whole experience taught me that the 250 rocks, and I'm not in the least interested in a 600. I'd love to grab a 1000 for this summer, but I'm going to wait until the right deal comes along. No need to rush into $80/month insurance

[Apex]

I'll take a slightly higher insurance rate if it means I have a bike I really truly enjoy.

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by Apex

I'll take a slightly higher insurance rate if it means I have a bike I really truly enjoy.

Test ride them all and post videos

I love shopping for new stuff I don't need.

[Apex]

Test rides? Heck I think any SS would rock. I think I'd prefer Kawi, but I'll take whatever. Depends on

• When my wife says I can get one
• Cost
• Color
• Finance Rates

[patw]

Originally Posted by Flashmonkey

Test ride them all and post videos

I love shopping for new stuff I don't need.

Same here. Plus, I'm insanely cheap and love my 250.

I'll be trying a BRP Spyder this weekend during their demo day. It's nutty expensive and probably not what I'm looking for, but what the hell eh.

[ckholloway]

I am not impressed with the ninja 636. I had one in the garage for a couple weeks that I was doing some work on and they are just put together poorly.

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by patw

Same here. Plus, I'm insanely cheap and love my 250.

I'll be trying a BRP Spyder this weekend during their demo day. It's nutty expensive and probably not what I'm looking for, but what the hell eh.

Oh rly? Man, I'd test drive the hell out of that thing!!

post a review after...i'm curious about it

[sofo]

I rode a '10 BMW K1300S, that's 1300cc and 150bhp if I recall. It was pretty nimble for it's size and the throttle was well-behaved down low but past 8000RPM it was a missile.

The litre class is getting scary, MCN recently compared the BMW S1000RR against the Kawasaki ZX-14 and Suzuki Hayabusa and the BMW won just about every test. It's being dyno'ed up to 180hp at the back wheel and with all the electronics can be ridden rather easily on the street.

The next few years are going to be interesting in the big-bike realm.

[Apex]

I honestly think that something on two wheels, with such a small wheelbase, doesn't need anything over 170hp. 170hp is more than enough for anyone. But bigger is always better, right? At least that is what society tells us.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by Apex

Test rides? Heck I think any SS would rock. I think I'd prefer Kawi, but I'll take whatever. Depends on

• When my wife says I can get one
• Cost
• Color
• Finance Rates

I've seen new 2009 ZX10 for $8995 +tax + 125 delivery at my dealer. Bad news was Kawi financing was 24 mos @4.99% or more, while Hon and Yam were 36 mos @1.99% or more.

[Apex]

Yeah, that is what I have to look at. My bank does bikes at a flat rate of 6%. I know Yami is having good deals right now, so an R1 wouldn't be totally out of the question. Then again, the payment for an R1 with 1k down, 3 years @ 1.99% is about $350/mo. Still kind of pricey for a bike IMHO.

The whole deal rolls down to what I can put down on the bike, monthly payments, and payment term. I'd prefer a term of 3 years, but I'd go to 5 if needed, though I'd prefer to pay off sooner than later.

Technically I could just pay it off in a year, no biggy.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by Apex

Yeah, that is what I have to look at. My bank does bikes at a flat rate of 6%. I know Yami is having good deals right now, so an R1 wouldn't be totally out of the question. Then again, the payment for an R1 with 1k down, 3 years @ 1.99% is about $350/mo. Still kind of pricey for a bike IMHO.


The whole deal rolls down to what I can put down on the bike, monthly payments, and payment term. I'd prefer a term of 3 years, but I'd go to 5 if needed, though I'd prefer to pay off sooner than later.

Technically I could just pay it off in a year, no biggy.

If you don't need full fairings 2009 FZ1 are under $8K. Versatile, fast bike. The 09 dark green wheels don't thrill me at all though.

About to start paying the first of 4 years of college for my daughter, so on one hand I am thinking Area P and jet kit, and on the other hand clean, used bike with owner known by local dealer, or new bike. No idea what to do, though I enjoy riding my 250 and on a recent group ride through some twisty country rodads, fastest guy was on a 250 supermoto type yamaha, and the guys on liter bikes were no slouches.

[Xoulrath]

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

Split the diff and go GSXR 750 or Duc 848!!

Exactly what I plan to do within a year. I just wish more manufacturers made 750s.

Originally Posted by Apex

I honestly think that something on two wheels, with such a small wheelbase, doesn't need anything over 170hp. 170hp is more than enough for anyone. But bigger is always better, right? At least that is what society tells us.

Eh, I agree with you. Most comparison tests I have seen puts the BMW mid-field as far as lap times so that extra power isn't even usable all the time on a track. Granted most reviewers say the bike is incredible and worth every penny. Based on a friend's remarks after a test ride I am inclined to believe them.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by Xoulrath

Exactly what I plan to do within a year. I just wish more manufacturers made 750s.

Eh, I agree with you. Most comparison tests I have seen puts the BMW mid-field as far as lap times so that extra power isn't even usable all the time on a track. Granted most reviewers say the bike is incredible and worth every penny. Based on a friend's remarks after a test ride I am inclined to believe them.

Suz just made such a great 750 everyone else conceded.


Yeah I think on some tracks Corser can't take advantage of the motor on the shorter straights.

[sofo]

Originally Posted by Apex

I honestly think that something on two wheels, with such a small wheelbase, doesn't need anything over 170hp. 170hp is more than enough for anyone. But bigger is always better, right? At least that is what society tells us.

Well yes and no. Unless I was going to do a considerable amount of track time I wouldn't care / want a bike with that much power or ability since it would be a waste. Sure I could use it here and there but my life wouldn't be a hollow shell without it.

On the other hand, one of my goals is to ride the Nordschliffe at Nurburgring and you can bet the farm that I intend to have the most powerful bike I can get my hands on when I do that. The main straights there can exploit as much power as a bike can have.

[sofo]

Originally Posted by Apex

Yeah, that is what I have to look at. My bank does bikes at a flat rate of 6%. I know Yami is having good deals right now, so an R1 wouldn't be totally out of the question. Then again, the payment for an R1 with 1k down, 3 years @ 1.99% is about $350/mo. Still kind of pricey for a bike IMHO.

The whole deal rolls down to what I can put down on the bike, monthly payments, and payment term. I'd prefer a term of 3 years, but I'd go to 5 if needed, though I'd prefer to pay off sooner than later.

Technically I could just pay it off in a year, no biggy.

The R1 is apparently a joy to ride on the street because of the traction that the "big bang" motor provides. It's also comfortable and IMO, a good looking bike. R1s keep their value pretty well from what I've seen given the mystique surrounding them.

Put some Akrapovic slip-ons on it.

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by Apex

170hp is more than enough for anyone.

Never...I want more...MOAR!!

[Sinister]

i stepped from my 09 250 to an 08 zx14. if you respect the throttle and remember the lessons the 250 taught you its fine. yes, i know you need to respect the throttle on any bike but the 250 was several orders of magnitude more forgiving.

[sofo]

The only thing I really hedge on with litre bikes is the transmission, or lack of use for it. If the bike does over 120km/hr in first gear, where will I ever be able to wring it out through the gears like a smaller bike - unless it's at the track?

[250rinblack]

Give the Gixxer 750 a good, hard look. And I'm not just saying that because I own one. The Daytona 675 has a very agressive riding position which your wife may find uncomfortable. Check out the seat height on all of your prospective purchases, I found the current ZX-6R a tad too tall for me and that ruled it out.
The 750 Gixxer is the same weight and dimensions as the 600, just a bit more torque and a bit more power. The current model is getting a bit long in the tooth but I've found it to be comfortable on long rides (4 hours plus), reasonably forgiving and does most things very well if it doesn't necessarily excel at anything in particular. It does sound good when you really give it some though.

[demp]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

I can provide some info on insurance for comparison. Keep in mind I have a clean driving record and these are Jax, Florida rates. Should show how the rates progress up as cc's rise. Someone also correct me if I wrong but I believe rates are based on 200cc-599cc and then 600-1000+. The 750 would still put you in the higher rates.

My 2008 Ninja 250R cost a little over $16 a month.
My 2009 Ninja 250R SE cost a little over $17 a month.
My 2007 CBR 1000RR cost a little over $52 a month.
I used to have 2005 CBR 600RR and I believe it was in the low $40's a month

Hope this helps...

You guy's make me jealous, my insurance on the 250 costs me 1400 a year, and that's after a huge drop from last year...

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by demp

You guy's make me jealous, my insurance on the 250 costs me 1400 a year, and that's after a huge drop from last year...

Wow - I assume you shopped around.

[demp]

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

Wow - I assume you shopped around.

Yep, when I was 19 and got a cbr125 it cost me 2200 a year (that's with no tickets or accidents).

Toronto + 22 years old = $.$

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by demp

You guy's make me jealous, my insurance on the 250 costs me 1400 a year, and that's after a huge drop from last year...

Wow...! Sorry man. Wasn't trying to rub salt in the wound

[Rayme]

Originally Posted by sofo

The only thing I really hedge on with litre bikes is the transmission, or lack of use for it. If the bike does over 120km/hr in first gear, where will I ever be able to wring it out through the gears like a smaller bike - unless it's at the track?

I think you just answered yourself!

[afronamasaki]

why not go with a naked bike. I found them to be way more fun than an all out sportsbike and a much better ride around town.