DIY Shimming the carb needles. - Page 12

NaughtyusMaximus · July 15th, 2009, 10:14 PM

Ok, I think these pictures illustrate why I was having problems. The larger washer is the first one I tried, the smaller are the ones I picked up from a local RC hobby shop the other day. The first picture shows the difference in height. Are the washers you guys have used that thin? Should I be expecting to have to use a minimum of 3 with stock exhaust and no snorkel?

The new ones are:
ID = 3mm
OD = 6mm

I think that should work a hell of a lot better than the Cambodian Tire ones.

CANTFUNCTION · July 15th, 2009, 10:51 PM

This is the size the washers need to be.

ID = 0.1250" , 1/8" , 3.175mm
OD = 0.3750" , 3/8" , 9.525mm
thickness = 0.0400" , 1.016mm

NaughtyusMaximus · July 25th, 2009, 11:15 AM

Just an update, I put these in last night, and the washers were the exact right size. The OD is about the same as the needle head even. The bike runs better than ever!

A warning to other noobs doing this though, be sure that you have vaseline handy in case you have to re-seat the diaphragm. Also, a second mode of transport in case you junk up one or more of the screws like I did, so that you can get replacements without having to ride the bike with screws which might not be as tight as they should be.

Heed this warning from another thread, this is a $100 cock up:

Quote:

As has been suggested a little vaseline or light grease around the machined groove will help seat the diaphram. You can see in two pictures up a bit of grease on my diaphram from this . Pay special attention upon reassembly to make sure the diaphram is fully seated in the machine groove for it. It'd be a shame to go through the effort only to tear the diaphram when you put the cap back on

25ERic · September 9th, 2009, 10:34 AM

Does anyone know what screws we can replace the JIS ones with on the carb covers? Would Home Depot or Lows sell that size?

kkim · September 9th, 2009, 10:48 AM

"search button" is such a wonderful tool.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...ht=carb+screws

Tims250R · September 9th, 2009, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 25ERic

Does anyone know what screws we can replace the JIS ones with on the carb covers? Would Home Depot or Lows sell that size?

Yes i got Mine from Home Depot...

25ERic · September 10th, 2009, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkim

"search button" is such a wonderful tool.

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...ht=carb+screws

Thanks for the link, I tried to search but must have not used the correct word combination. A ton of stuff came up when I used the word "screw" and "carbs".

kkim · September 10th, 2009, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 25ERic

Thanks for the link, I tried to search but must have not used the correct word combination. A ton of stuff came up when I used the word "screw" and "carbs".

NP... sometimes, even if I know what I'm looking for, I can't find it.

dkstariob · October 3rd, 2009, 09:48 PM

I will name my firstborn son (the wife better or she'll have to answer some questions!) after you Kelly. And his middle name will be Gary. Great GREAT GREATTT MOD!

danknation · October 7th, 2009, 10:13 AM

Just shimmed up my carb needles last night. The mid range is great but now my top end rpms seem to bog a bit. Any guess as to why? I've also done the snorkel removal.

Two #4 washers under each needle
snorkel removed
stock exhaust

kkim · October 7th, 2009, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danknation

The mid range is great but now my top end rpms seem to bog a bit.

care to explain that a bit more? what rpm does it start bogging? under what conditions?

danknation · October 7th, 2009, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkim

care to explain that a bit more? what rpm does it start bogging? under what conditions?

It isn't necessarily a bog but feels like something is holding it back. The engine is screaming, just not making any significant power. It starts at around 9kish and lasts until the redline. It is also sort of sluggish down low from 2.7k-4k it seems.

kkim · October 7th, 2009, 02:40 PM

removing the snorkel should have improved the 9k to redline power. also, w/ the washers, it should have improved your low to midrange power. try taking all or one washer out and see if the situation improves.

recheck all hoses, cables and the diaphragms when you work on the carbs.

Robbo81 · October 12th, 2009, 12:11 AM

just wondering what sort of washers people used for this mod, by this I mean the type of metal, i.e. stainless steel, alloy? I'm just asking because I want to do this mod but can't find alloy washers of this size in australia. I'm a bit concerned about electrolysis between the two metals in the carby. Being a ally carby and all

kkim · October 12th, 2009, 12:24 AM

4mm stainless steel or steel washers will work.

Robbo81 · October 12th, 2009, 12:55 AM

You don't think electrolysis would be a problem though kkim?

kkim · October 12th, 2009, 01:03 AM

I had steel washers in my bike for a couple of months and had no problems when I went to pull them when I installed a jet kit later. The washers were even a bit rusty when they were installed and no interaction between dissimilar metals was seen.

this picture was taken at the time the jet kit was installed.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_geC920GCq38/SL...DSC04542-1.JPG

while I'm not saying it could never happen, no problems have been noted to date from others that have shimmed that I am aware of.

Robbo81 · October 12th, 2009, 01:17 AM

Ok thanx kkim, I didn't think it would be that big of a deal considering it would be coated in fuel most of the time. I might still try to find alloy ones if I can though

headshrink · October 12th, 2009, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbo81

Ok thanx kkim, I didn't think it would be that big of a deal considering it would be coated in fuel most of the time. I might still try to find alloy ones if I can though

You COULD, but I believe the question has been asked before, and I am unaware of a single person that has had an issue with it. Although, if it gives you peace of mind, go for it.

Robbo81 · October 12th, 2009, 02:02 AM

Thanks for all the help, I'm super exited cause this will be the first mod to my bike

Robbo81 · October 16th, 2009, 02:14 AM

Well I shimmed my carb needles today and I am very impressed with the results. My bike is stock and all I've done is removed the snorkel and shimmed the needles. 2 washers either side. takes off better, and I love the mid range now. Thanx for the tips

headshrink · October 16th, 2009, 02:58 AM

When mine was stock, 2 washers under each needle evened out the entire power curve, but after yanking the snorkle I lost the mid... I guess I'll be trying 3 next.

Matt_F · October 17th, 2009, 03:53 PM

I did this mod today along with removing the snorkel. I still have the stock exhaust. I love the sound of the bike now that the snorkel is gone.

I used #4 washers and started off with 2 under each needle. I took the bike for a ride and the mid range seemed off...almost like it was bogging a little. Once the bike hits 8k rpm it takes off like everything is fine.

I read some posts that suggested maybe it was too rich, so I removed a washer (leaving me with 1 washer on each needle). The bike at first seemed OK, but on the way home I could notice that it was severely lacking in the mid range. If you twist the throttle at 6-7k rpm it doesn't really go anywhere and you can almost feel that its kind of surging a little. Its not really a bog, but definitely not making power. By the time it gets to 8k rpm all seems fine.

Should I have gone the other way and done 3 washers? I'm getting pretty good at removing the tank and needles, but I'd like to do it as little as possible.

kkim · October 17th, 2009, 04:04 PM

sure, try 3.

make sure the bike is completely warmed up before you try evaluating the differences.

btw, I would have done like you and went back to 1 shim, but you never know and experimentation is sometimes necessary to yield the best results.

gl... let us know your results.

Matt_F · October 18th, 2009, 03:40 PM

Well, I put 3 shims in the bike and it seems to be running pretty well. The mid range still feels weak, but I never really used the mid range before either. The bike has always been better above 8k and it feels even better up there now. It's also pretty smooth taking off and accelerating.

I'll compare it to my buddies stock bike before we do this mod on his.

I have to say that I am in love with the new sound.

Robbo81 · October 21st, 2009, 12:01 AM

Does any body know if this mod and snorkel removal will work on a 2006 zzr 250? I only ask because my friend just bought one.

kkim · October 21st, 2009, 01:39 AM

does the bike have the same warmup and driveability problems as the 250R? the carbs are the same so, if so, I don't see why not.

Robbo81 · October 21st, 2009, 04:32 AM

The bike seems to start up and warm up ok, about the same as mine i guess. I really need to pull it apart to get a good look at it. might not even have a snorkel on it.

kkim · October 30th, 2009, 07:26 PM

Cheap alternate to the JIS screwdriver?

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showp...2&postcount=20

HMB-ninja · November 6th, 2009, 07:22 PM

hey guys, i'm thinking of doing the shim mod on my 08 but first i have a few questions...

First- My bike seems to be one of the "almost perfect" bikes; it usually takes only 30-90 seconds to warm up after sitting out side all night. It did sort of struggle to get of the line at a stop on a busy interesection once when i first got it but i have either learned to overcome this or it has stoped doing this. *So should i even try this or is my bike one that mightnot respond well to this???

Second- It seems that everyone is removing the snorkle and going striaght for 2 washers, now i wonder if (since my bike seems to work pretty well already) i go with only 1 washer and leave the snorkle in place will i get any benifit? or is there any possability that i might do harm by adding washers and leaving the snorkle in place?

I just added a 650R to my stable so i now feel more comfortable playing with the 250 but i still love my bike and dont want to chance hurting her in any way.
thanks for any info that might help.

HMB-ninja · November 8th, 2009, 11:30 AM

Bueller?.........Bueller?..............Bueller?................anyone?

HKr1 · November 8th, 2009, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HMB-ninja

Bueller?.........Bueller?..............Bueller?................anyone?

First - Was that a question?
Second - Benifit, yes.... Harm.. No.

headshrink · November 8th, 2009, 03:15 PM

I don't know if it is just me, but after I do something that improves performance (like shimming, fine tunning), and I notice an improvement, the next day or two it seems like things go back to the way they where. I ASSUME it is just my perception as I get used to the new feel, and the bike is exactly the same as it was after I tweaked it... I can't think of any other plausible explanation than that, and they usually say it is the simplest explanation that is the right one.

Has anyone else experienced this?

g21-30 · November 9th, 2009, 05:12 AM

Bob, you're only paranoid....if you think you are!

adouglas · November 9th, 2009, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by headshrink

I don't know if it is just me, but after I do something that improves performance (like shimming, fine tunning), and I notice an improvement, the next day or two it seems like things go back to the way they where. I ASSUME it is just my perception as I get used to the new feel, and the bike is exactly the same as it was after I tweaked it... I can't think of any other plausible explanation than that, and they usually say it is the simplest explanation that is the right one.

Has anyone else experienced this?

Placebo effect. Same thing that convinces you your ca runs a little better/smoother right after an oil change. Perception is plastic (as in malleable). There is no substitute for controlled measurements. Data rules.

Matt_F · November 25th, 2009, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt_F

Well, I put 3 shims in the bike and it seems to be running pretty well. The mid range still feels weak, but I never really used the mid range before either. The bike has always been better above 8k and it feels even better up there now. It's also pretty smooth taking off and accelerating.

I'll compare it to my buddies stock bike before we do this mod on his.

I have to say that I am in love with the new sound.

I figured I'd chime in here after driving the bike for a while. I definitely recommend the shimming. It makes the bike more drivable at low RPMs. I use to have problems around town where I would make a sharp 90* right turn up hill for example and would be in too high a gear and have to down shift, but now the bike pulls much better in the low range. I also don't have the issue of it sometimes falling on its face when taking off and feeling like it wants to go no where. Thumbs up for this mod!

Also the sound is still awesome with the snorkel out and the top end feels better.

headshrink · November 25th, 2009, 12:42 PM

+1 on my 3 too

HKr1 · November 25th, 2009, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by headshrink

+1 on my 3 too

You best keep your fingers outta them carbs now............

rockNroll · November 25th, 2009, 04:58 PM

My car doesn't run better after an oil change?

headshrink · November 25th, 2009, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HKr1

You best keep your fingers outta them carbs now............

Still might do a rejet re-jet

November 6th, 2009, 07:22 PM	#470
HMB-ninja ninjette.org member Name: David Location: Bay Area Join Date: Aug 2009 Motorcycle(s): 08 Ninja 250R(red) 09 Ninja 650R(red) 08 PGO Buddy 150(Pamplona) Posts: 41	hey guys, i'm thinking of doing the shim mod on my 08 but first i have a few questions... First- My bike seems to be one of the "almost perfect" bikes; it usually takes only 30-90 seconds to warm up after sitting out side all night. It did sort of struggle to get of the line at a stop on a busy interesection once when i first got it but i have either learned to overcome this or it has stoped doing this. So should i even try this or is my bike one that mightnot respond well to this??? Second- It seems that everyone is removing the snorkle and going striaght for 2 washers, now i wonder if (since my bike seems to work pretty well already) i go with only 1 washer and leave the snorkle in place will i get any benifit? or is there any possability that i might do harm by adding washers and leaving the snorkle in place? I just added a 650R to my stable so i now feel more comfortable playing with the 250 but i still love my bike and dont want to chance hurting her in any way. thanks for any info that might help. Last futzed with by HMB-ninja; November 9th, 2009 at 11:31 PM. Reason: Left the question out*

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July 15th, 2009, 10:51 PM	#442
CANTFUNCTION ninjette.org member Name: Chris Location: Georgia Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 09 ninja 250(red) Posts: 193	This is the size the washers need to be. ID = 0.1250" , 1/8" , 3.175mm OD = 0.3750" , 3/8" , 9.525mm thickness = 0.0400" , 1.016mm

September 9th, 2009, 10:34 AM	#444
25ERic ninjette.org newbie Name: Eric Location: Ewing NJ Join Date: Jul 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Ninja 250R SE Posts: 9	Does anyone know what screws we can replace the JIS ones with on the carb covers? Would Home Depot or Lows sell that size?

September 9th, 2009, 10:48 AM	#445
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	"search button" is such a wonderful tool. http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...ht=carb+screws

October 3rd, 2009, 09:48 PM	#449
dkstariob ninjette.org member Name: Matthew Location: New York Join Date: Aug 2009 Motorcycle(s): None Posts: 87	I will name my firstborn son (the wife better or she'll have to answer some questions!) after you Kelly. And his middle name will be Gary. Great GREAT GREATTT MOD!

October 7th, 2009, 10:13 AM	#450
danknation ninjette.org member Name: Eric Location: Denton, Tx Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): 09 Ninja 250R SE Posts: 84	Just shimmed up my carb needles last night. The mid range is great but now my top end rpms seem to bog a bit. Any guess as to why? I've also done the snorkel removal. Two #4 washers under each needle snorkel removed stock exhaust

October 7th, 2009, 02:40 PM	#453
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	removing the snorkel should have improved the 9k to redline power. also, w/ the washers, it should have improved your low to midrange power. try taking all or one washer out and see if the situation improves. recheck all hoses, cables and the diaphragms when you work on the carbs.

October 12th, 2009, 12:11 AM	#454
Robbo81 ninjette.org member Name: Robert Location: sydney Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): 250r Posts: 35	just wondering what sort of washers people used for this mod, by this I mean the type of metal, i.e. stainless steel, alloy? I'm just asking because I want to do this mod but can't find alloy washers of this size in australia. I'm a bit concerned about electrolysis between the two metals in the carby. Being a ally carby and all

October 12th, 2009, 12:24 AM	#455
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	4mm stainless steel or steel washers will work.

October 12th, 2009, 12:55 AM	#456
Robbo81 ninjette.org member Name: Robert Location: sydney Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): 250r Posts: 35	You don't think electrolysis would be a problem though kkim?

October 12th, 2009, 01:03 AM	#457
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	I had steel washers in my bike for a couple of months and had no problems when I went to pull them when I installed a jet kit later. The washers were even a bit rusty when they were installed and no interaction between dissimilar metals was seen. this picture was taken at the time the jet kit was installed. http://lh4.ggpht.com/_geC920GCq38/SL...DSC04542-1.JPG while I'm not saying it could never happen, no problems have been noted to date from others that have shimmed that I am aware of.

October 12th, 2009, 01:17 AM	#458
Robbo81 ninjette.org member Name: Robert Location: sydney Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): 250r Posts: 35	Ok thanx kkim, I didn't think it would be that big of a deal considering it would be coated in fuel most of the time. I might still try to find alloy ones if I can though

October 12th, 2009, 02:02 AM	#460
Robbo81 ninjette.org member Name: Robert Location: sydney Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): 250r Posts: 35	Thanks for all the help, I'm super exited cause this will be the first mod to my bike

October 16th, 2009, 02:14 AM	#461
Robbo81 ninjette.org member Name: Robert Location: sydney Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): 250r Posts: 35	Well I shimmed my carb needles today and I am very impressed with the results. My bike is stock and all I've done is removed the snorkel and shimmed the needles. 2 washers either side. takes off better, and I love the mid range now. Thanx for the tips

October 16th, 2009, 02:58 AM	#462
headshrink ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Bob Location: CA Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250r, '14 CBR500r Posts: A lot.	When mine was stock, 2 washers under each needle evened out the entire power curve, but after yanking the snorkle I lost the mid... I guess I'll be trying 3 next.

October 17th, 2009, 03:53 PM	#463
Matt_F ninjette.org member Name: Matt Location: Memphis, TN Join Date: Jul 2009 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R SE, '08 Yamaha R6 Posts: 46	I did this mod today along with removing the snorkel. I still have the stock exhaust. I love the sound of the bike now that the snorkel is gone. I used #4 washers and started off with 2 under each needle. I took the bike for a ride and the mid range seemed off...almost like it was bogging a little. Once the bike hits 8k rpm it takes off like everything is fine. I read some posts that suggested maybe it was too rich, so I removed a washer (leaving me with 1 washer on each needle). The bike at first seemed OK, but on the way home I could notice that it was severely lacking in the mid range. If you twist the throttle at 6-7k rpm it doesn't really go anywhere and you can almost feel that its kind of surging a little. Its not really a bog, but definitely not making power. By the time it gets to 8k rpm all seems fine. Should I have gone the other way and done 3 washers? I'm getting pretty good at removing the tank and needles, but I'd like to do it as little as possible.

October 17th, 2009, 04:04 PM	#464
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	sure, try 3. make sure the bike is completely warmed up before you try evaluating the differences. btw, I would have done like you and went back to 1 shim, but you never know and experimentation is sometimes necessary to yield the best results. gl... let us know your results.

October 18th, 2009, 03:40 PM	#465
Matt_F ninjette.org member Name: Matt Location: Memphis, TN Join Date: Jul 2009 Motorcycle(s): '09 Ninja 250R SE, '08 Yamaha R6 Posts: 46	Well, I put 3 shims in the bike and it seems to be running pretty well. The mid range still feels weak, but I never really used the mid range before either. The bike has always been better above 8k and it feels even better up there now. It's also pretty smooth taking off and accelerating. I'll compare it to my buddies stock bike before we do this mod on his. I have to say that I am in love with the new sound.

October 21st, 2009, 12:01 AM	#466
Robbo81 ninjette.org member Name: Robert Location: sydney Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): 250r Posts: 35	Does any body know if this mod and snorkel removal will work on a 2006 zzr 250? I only ask because my friend just bought one.

October 21st, 2009, 01:39 AM	#467
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	does the bike have the same warmup and driveability problems as the 250R? the carbs are the same so, if so, I don't see why not.

October 21st, 2009, 04:32 AM	#468
Robbo81 ninjette.org member Name: Robert Location: sydney Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): 250r Posts: 35	The bike seems to start up and warm up ok, about the same as mine i guess. I really need to pull it apart to get a good look at it. might not even have a snorkel on it.

October 30th, 2009, 07:26 PM	#469
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	Cheap alternate to the JIS screwdriver? http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showp...2&postcount=20

November 8th, 2009, 11:30 AM	#471
HMB-ninja ninjette.org member Name: David Location: Bay Area Join Date: Aug 2009 Motorcycle(s): 08 Ninja 250R(red) 09 Ninja 650R(red) 08 PGO Buddy 150(Pamplona) Posts: 41	Bueller?.........Bueller?..............Bueller?................anyone?

November 8th, 2009, 03:15 PM	#473
headshrink ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Bob Location: CA Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250r, '14 CBR500r Posts: A lot.	I don't know if it is just me, but after I do something that improves performance (like shimming, fine tunning), and I notice an improvement, the next day or two it seems like things go back to the way they where. I ASSUME it is just my perception as I get used to the new feel, and the bike is exactly the same as it was after I tweaked it... I can't think of any other plausible explanation than that, and they usually say it is the simplest explanation that is the right one. Has anyone else experienced this?

November 9th, 2009, 05:12 AM	#474
g21-30 ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Sam Location: Northern Virginia Join Date: Nov 2008 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R 2009 Posts: A lot.	Bob, you're only paranoid....if you think you are!

November 25th, 2009, 12:42 PM	#477
headshrink ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Bob Location: CA Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250r, '14 CBR500r Posts: A lot.	+1 on my 3 too

November 25th, 2009, 04:58 PM	#479
rockNroll . Name: rock Location: greenville, south carolina Join Date: Jun 2009 Motorcycle(s): black Posts: A lot.	My car doesn't run better after an oil change?