07 ninja 250 doesn't start....help needed

[devmasa]

I bought a 2007 ninja 250 with ~ 900 miles on it.I test rode the motorcycle twice before buying.I worked fine without any issues.Although I found that I had to rev pretty high in the first gear to get moving from a stop.
Anyway...I bought the motorcycle and it died on me on my way home.The previous owner helped me jump start it with his car and I started fine. I didn't know that the car needed to be off while jumping the battery.
But now the motorcycle refuses to start at all...(it has started 4 times erratically but dies after some time)
I replaced the battery thinking that it would be a battery issue but still no luck.

Yesterday I tried to jump the old battery (after charging it overnight with my battery tender) with my car off.My car was off this time.The motorcycle started once with choke fully on and idled fine, but died as soon as I gave some throttle.

I drained the carb bowls today,thinking that they might be flooded.the drained out gas was clear with a light amber color.also, not a whole lot of gas drained out.
But...when one of the bowls was drained out,the bike started twice weakly (with choke on) but died after a few seconds.It has not started since.

My next step is to check the spark plugs...

..any help on getting my ninja started again is greatly appreciated.

P.S: btw some new gas was added to the old gas before I started off from the previous owner's place.

[bob706]

Originally Posted by devmasa

I bought a 2007 ninja 250 with ~ 900 miles on it.

With so few miles on her I would bet the carbs are gunked up. If you can get it to start with the choke on and idle, try letting it run with some Seafoam in the tank for awhile. I know that's the opimistic poor mans fix but it's what I would try before yanking the carbs out.

[Flashmonkey]

Dev, I'm assuming that the bike cranks over every time you attempt to start it? Also, I'm not sure if you have a multimeter or anything, but you should only jump start the bike if your battery is reading less than 12V or if it becomes too weak to crank over the starter on it's own.

Your starting issues definitely sound carb related. But I remember your original thread where your bike died on you mid ride, and that sounds charging system related. You may have two separate issues, or this may be one large issue (depending on how badly gummed up your carbs are, or if your ignition coils are bad, or if you have tight valves).

Here's part of the pregen ninjette bible: http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Troubleshooting

Hopefully that will help you narrow down the problem.

[devmasa]

Originally Posted by bob706

With so few miles on her I would bet the carbs are gunked up. If you can get it to start with the choke on and idle, try letting it run with some Seafoam in the tank for awhile. I know that's the opimistic poor mans fix but it's what I would try before yanking the carbs out.

Yes Seafoam is surely on my list but do you think it will do any good if the bike doesn't start? I hope I can get it to start and idle long enough to get some Seafoam in the carbs.

Originally Posted by Flashmonkey

Dev, I'm assuming that the bike cranks over every time you attempt to start it? Also, I'm not sure if you have a multimeter or anything, but you should only jump start the bike if your battery is reading less than 12V or if it becomes too weak to crank over the starter on it's own.

Your starting issues definitely sound carb related. But I remember your original thread where your bike died on you mid ride, and that sounds charging system related. You may have two separate issues, or this may be one large issue (depending on how badly gummed up your carbs are, or if your ignition coils are bad, or if you have tight valves).

Here's part of the pregen ninjette bible: http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Troubleshooting

Hopefully that will help you narrow down the problem.

Thanks James, I will go through it in detail one more time.
So here is a question for you guys:
If the carbs are gunked up...would it be normal that the bike worked fine earlier, rode fine and then suddenly stopped? Wouldn't the build up in the carbs prevent it from starting in the first place? also..shouldnt the drained gas from the carb bowls be all murky and nasty if the carbs are gunked up?

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by devmasa

If the carbs are gunked up...would it be normal that the bike worked fine earlier, rode fine and then suddenly stopped? Wouldn't the build up in the carbs prevent it from starting in the first place? also..shouldnt the drained gas from the carb bowls be all murky and nasty if the carbs are gunked up?

That depends really. How well was the bike performing when you were riding it? Was acceleration strong and consistent? Were there any hiccups when you were stopped at a light? Surging in the idle when stopped? Hesitation, backfiring, etc?

Or was it performing well then all of a sudden it just died? Also, after it died on you while you were riding it, did the engine crank over at all when you tried to restart it? Was it a strong crank or a weak crank?

[bob706]

Originally Posted by devmasa

also..shouldnt the drained gas from the carb bowls be all murky and nasty if the carbs are gunked up?

Not neccessarily. It wouldn't take much to clog up a circuit. Have you checked the fuel filter and vacuum lines?

[devmasa]

Originally Posted by Flashmonkey

That depends really. How well was the bike performing when you were riding it? Was acceleration strong and consistent? Were there any hiccups when you were stopped at a light? Surging in the idle when stopped? Hesitation, backfiring, etc?

Or was it performing well then all of a sudden it just died? Also, after it died on you while you were riding it, did the engine crank over at all when you tried to restart it? Was it a strong crank or a weak crank?

When it was running, bike was performing well in all the gears except the first.Whenever I switched from neutral to first at traffic lights,I had to rev very high to get the bike moving in the first gear.After shifting to second and higher gears,it was very smooth.
Not hesitation or backfiring when I was stopped.

Yes the engine cranked over when I tried to restart it after it died on me.The engine cranks strongly every time even now on every start but the bike doesn't start.

Originally Posted by bob706

Not neccessarily. It wouldn't take much to clog up a circuit. Have you checked the fuel filter and vacuum lines?

No not yet.Fuel lines/vacuum lines and spark plugs are on today's agenda.
what steps should I follow to check the fuel/vacuum lines ?

[bob706]

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=54873

Same problem

[devmasa]

Originally Posted by bob706

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=54873

Same problem

Thats thread looks beyond my mechanical capability.

I dont think that any maintenance service was ever done on this bike except an oil change.
I really would like to get the bike working myself but do you think I am better off taking this to a mechanic and shelling out the money?

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by bob706

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=54873

Same problem

Hrmm....that's a hell of a conundrum.

Dev, before you go tearing into your carb, try and eliminate everything else first. Check and/or replace the plugs, confirm that your ignitor coils are good, confirm that your air filter isn't clogged, confirm that your gas tank is venting and that gas is getting to the carbs, maybe drain the tank and start off with a completely new tank of gas as well.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to try and check the clearances on your valves as well. It's pretty simple on the pregens: http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_..._the_valves%3F.

This is basically a full service of the bike. Most of this stuff is pretty easy to do, and free if you're willing to do it yourself.

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by devmasa

I dont think that any maintenance service was ever done on this bike except an oil change.
I really would like to get the bike working myself but do you think I am better off taking this to a mechanic and shelling out the money?

That's your call, dev. To be honest, if you're to get your feet wet on any kind of mechanical misadventure, the pregen 250 is the machine that I'd recommend you do it on. It's very simple and easy to work with. It also helps that the Ninja250.org FAQ is immense and full of pictures.

Like I said, though, it's up to you. Troubleshooting like this may cost you quite a bit if you farm it out to a pro.

[devmasa]

Sucess...at least partially
So I checked all fuel/vaccum lines.no problems al all.
...removed the spark plugs and tested them..worked perfectly.
Then I took the gas tank off,removed the petcock and drained all the gas.Took the tank to a gas station and filled a gallon of gas.Then I added seafoam to the new gas.
Drained the carb bowls twice and made sure that new seafoam mixed gas was getting in them.
After a couple of unsuccessful cranks, the 250 cranked to life and after some very mild spluttering worked fine like nothing was ever wrong.
I rode it a couple of blocks around to make sure everything worked fine and it did.I was feeling really good about myself for this humble achievement.
So I let it sit for a day to make sure the seafoam cleaned up whatever blockage was in there.
....but the drama continues......
This morning I decided to ride the 250 to work.
It started fine,idled fine, so I was feeling confident about it.So I am on the freeway (about 10 miles from starting point) cruising at 70-80 mph going downhill on the 405 freeway in the left most lane and bam! Engine dies !!Just plain dies. I looked around me,traffic was doing an easy 80 mph downhill around a curve.I started frantically waving my left hand.The cars behind me came to a screeching halt.Again god knows how, I managed to push the 250 to the shoulder.Now I was stranded without any exits around for next 2 miles and without a cell phone.
Couple of cranks later, the 250 starts and I managed to get off the freeway somehow by pulling in the clutch and just rolling downhill all the way to the exit.
the bike continues to start gingerly and die till I get to a gas station and then I filled up a gallon again.After the fill up, it started ok and I managed to get myself to work.All the way to work, it was not working correctly,was revving high even with choke off and I had to short shift to 3rd or 4th gear to keep the ride smooth.
I have no clue what is the problem now.Maybe it was out of gas? but the light did not come on..and yes the gas light does work ok.
What drama.When the engine died today, I was at a very dangerous spot on the freeway..stuck in the fastest lane,downhill around a semi-blind curve.I am scared of this 250 now....

[Alex]

Sounds to me like a fuel tank venting problem. Working just fine, going along on the highway, then dying, it sounds exactly like that. Being able to start a bit later, and requiring high revs that still felt like little power, it still sounds exactly like that.

Make sure that there is no pinching of any of the vent lines coming from the tank.

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by Alex

Sounds to me like a fuel tank venting problem. Working just fine, going along on the highway, then dying, it sounds exactly like that. Being able to start a bit later, and requiring high revs that still felt like little power, it still sounds exactly like that.

Make sure that there is no pinching of any of the vent lines coming from the tank.

+1...definitely something funny going on with the fuel delivery. Good job on narrowing it down, though.

Edit: how rusty is the inside of the tank? Any debris in there?

[devmasa]

Originally Posted by Alex

Sounds to me like a fuel tank venting problem. Working just fine, going along on the highway, then dying, it sounds exactly like that. Being able to start a bit later, and requiring high revs that still felt like little power, it still sounds exactly like that.

Make sure that there is no pinching of any of the vent lines coming from the tank.

When I put the tank back on,I made sure that there was no pinching. Now I'll double check to see if the seat is pinching any lines at all.

Originally Posted by Flashmonkey

+1...definitely something funny going on with the fuel delivery. Good job on narrowing it down, though.

Edit: how rusty is the inside of the tank? Any debris in there?

When I drained the old gas,it was clear..no debris at all.I dont think there is any rust inside the tank.However, when I removed the petcock,there was a fine layer of deposits on the filter (which I cleaned before putting back on)

Do you guys think I am better off buying new clear tubes for the fuel lines instead of relying on the old ones?
Where would I get clear lines? what size tubing should I be looking for?

[devmasa]

I just realized that in both the instances when the engine died on me was when I hit a particular speed and was going at that speed for a few seconds.

[Alex]

At that speed the bike requires a certain fuel flow, and if not enough is flowing, well, kaput.

[FrugalNinja250]

Next time it does it, just leave it in gear and back the throttle off. If it's a fuel flow problem it should pick back up in a second or a few seconds. If it's well and truly dead then I'd think otherwise because fuel won't flow through the petcock with the engine not turning (unless the petcock is defective) so the bowls won't refill while you're sitting on the side of the road. They will refill if you're coasting with the engine off but still turning because it's in gear with the clutch out. The engine makes vacuum if it's turning regardless of whether it's firing or not.

If you suspect a venting problem the easy test is leave the fuel cap loose. If that solves the problem you'll need to look at the charcoal canister venting system. I assume you have that since you're in CA, unless you've got a 49-state bike with just one vent line at the back of the tank instead of three. If it's a 49-state bike then the rubber hose at the back of the tank is simply a drain for the filler cap recess and pinching it can have no effect on tank venting.

[devmasa]

So took a short break from work and went to inspect the bike,removed the seat and inspected the lines coming from the tank under the seat area.....sure enough,there was a kink in the the leftmost line.I am surprised how I didnt catch it earlier.
I tried rolling the kinked area with my fingers but no luck..looks like that kink is permanent now.The rubber in that area stays in that position permanently.

Will a kink in this line cause anything?

On another note,since I have a CA model,I have three lines coming out of the fuel tank.I wanted to make sure what line goes where.
1) Extreme left line ---> Carbs (this one has the kink in it)
2) Middle line -----> Overflow ? (currently this is not connected to anything)
3) Extreme right Line -----> ? (what is this connected to? )

[devmasa]

found the answer to the last part :
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Hose_ro...ine_fuel_tanks

Still it doesnt answer my question :
Will a kink in Extreme left line cause any problem?


..btw where can I get a new fuel line?And what diameter should I be asking for? Should I buy a clear line instead?

[Alex]

Originally Posted by devmasa

So took a short break from work and went to inspect the bike,removed the seat and inspected the lines coming from the tank under the seat area.....sure enough,there was a kink in the the leftmost line.

ding ding ding. what do i win?

[devmasa]

Originally Posted by Alex

ding ding ding. what do i win?

Alex there is a kink in the Red line..what would a kink in that line do?
How will it restrict the fuel delivery?

Heres my guess..tell me if its correct :

Pinching of that line creates a vacuum in the tank which results in fuel starvation for the petcock fuel line ?

[Alex]

I think a clog or kink in any of those vent lines can prevent the tank from refilling with air to replace the amount of fuel that's being used. It creates a vacuum in the tank, which eventually slows the fuel flow down to the extent that it affects, and potentially stops, the engine.

[devmasa]

So I rode back home with my gas tank closed to confirm things and sure enough..the bike did the same thing.
Then I rode the rest of the distance with the gas tank cap open..bike worked fine for a while but stalled again with hesitation just before the engine died.
Started and worked fine again when I put the petcock to "reserve"...So looks like the kinked vented line is not the only culprit...what else?

P.S. : To make things worse,one of the left handle bar screws came off loose for no reason.No fun riding the bike with a loose handle bar

This motorcycle is possessed

[devmasa]

Originally Posted by kawboyCAFE

i assume that you have drained all the old gas out and put in new? if you havent, get that old crap out of there and put in fresh. THAT would definately be a problem.

Yes I had drained out all the old gas.

[n4mwd]

Does California have a lemon law? It sounds like this bike has been nothing but trouble. This is very atypical of a ninja. I have had virtually no trouble with mine at all.

I'm a newbie myself, but I seem to remember reading that there is a hidden fuel filter inside one of the carbs that gets clogged up sometimes. It might help if that was inspected and cleaned. It might also help if you add a preceding gravity flow fuel filter (like the kind that big lawnmowers use).

The jumping with the car running was probably coincidental. It could have possibly damaged your igniter, but from what you describe, it really sounds like a fuel delivery problem.

[actionace]

Hey, 1st off I just wanted to say I did read about your purchase experience and glad you guys are alive to mess with the bike. From there I gotta' go with the advice Flashmonkey has given you:

Originally Posted by Flashmonkey

That's your call, dev. To be honest, if you're to get your feet wet on any kind of mechanical misadventure, the pregen 250 is the machine that I'd recommend you do it on. It's very simple and easy to work with.

Check for a spark, check your charging system with multimeter, & clean out the airbox (make sure to open and drain it out from the bottom hose).

Pull the carbs and clean them thoroughly (but carefully) pushing a piece of wire through all the tiny jet holes. Cleaning the carbs really isn't that tough and can make a world of difference. Just take it apart carefully, keep everything clean, and put it back in the same place. Taking off the screws can be problematic but this $5 impact driver will get them off. Make sure your tank & gas is clean before putting it back in.

I don't think of myself a great mechanic but I've had my 250 since 1995 and learned to do everything myself by just following directions on the 'Net or tinkering on my own. It's really part of the enjoyment of these bikes and why we take pride in riding them.

Good luck.

BTW, I'm pretty sure the 2007 doesn't have a fuel light

[Rosie]

Originally Posted by actionace

BTW, I'm pretty sure the 2007 doesn't have a fuel light

That's what I thought too.. at least mine doesn't seem to have one

[devmasa]

Long due update guys...
I took tank off,cleaned the petcock and replaced the fuel line.
The motorcycle runs perfectly since then.
I have put more than 200 freeway miles on the motorcycle after the fix and it hasn't stalled on me even once

So finally..I think the issue was a compound one,
1) Old bad gas sitting in the tank for a while,
2) Some blockage in the petcock
3) Some gunk in the carbs
4) (maybe) some blockage in the fuel line

Either way,looks like all that is history now (hopefully).The bike responds great now,accelerates very well.
My everyday commute has become a lot more bearable thanks to the ninja.
Thanks to all of you for your help and suggestions.

[devmasa]

..on another note for pre 2008 model owners....how do you know when to fill gas again?
I am currently resetting my trip meter every time I fill up.but since my 2007 ninja has around only 1200 miles on it, I don't know what kind of gas mileage should I expect from a new engine like this.
From my rough calculations I am getting around 45-50 mpg..is this normal for a new engine?

[kkim]

reset trip meter when you fill the tank. start looking to refill when you reach 200 miles. reset trip meter at every fillup.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by devmasa

... I am getting around 45-50 mpg..is this normal for a new engine?

I'm getting about 65-70 mpg which is more common for the pre-08 model. I usually set the odometer and fill up around 200 miles or so. There is a certain amount of gas on the right side of the tank that you don't get unless you slosh it over. Also, when you fill up, its a good idea to pump to the right side so that gas doesn't stagnate there.

[venom51]

I don't mean to threadjack but I'm having the exact same problem with my wife's 06. I removed the carb, checked it, cleaned it and reinstalled it. It starts with the choke on full but doesn't rev up beyond 1000rpm. If the throttle is touched at all, the bike dies. I've emptied the gas tank, replaced the fuel, used Stabil...same thing. I was checking the hoses throughout for kinks and other than a small one on the exhaust hose exiting the gas tank (non-California emission tank) everything seems to be ok. Except, I found a clear color hose that isn't connected to anything and for the life of me, I can't find where it should connect to. Anyway, this is VERY frustrating. Any/All help is greatly appreciated.

Oh yeah, on more weird thing. If I gently rock the bike while it's idling, it starts to rev up. Also, I checked the airbox, cleaned the filter, and if I cover the airbox exhaust outlets with a shirt, it tries to start revving up. I guess there's an airleak somewhere?

[venom51]

Anyone?

[n4mwd]

Your problem sounds more of a fuel problem than an electrical problem. Covering the air intake is about the same as putting the choke on. The extra vacuum pulls more fuel in and makes it run better. Based on what you have said, I can suggest checking the following in order:

1. Remove the fuel hose at the carb and crank the engine with the hose into a small jar. Fuel should flow freely into the jar while cranking. If it doesn't, its time to check the petcock and fuel inlets at the tank.

2. Check the fuel filter located in the carb where the gas inlet is.

3. Check the vacuum hose that goes between the carbs and the petcock. If this hose has an air leak, the petcock will not pass fuel.

4. Access the air inlet and spray some starting fluid in there. If it starts and runs good for a few seconds, then its definitely a fuel problem.

If you have good fuel flow at the carbs, and it still doesn't run right, you need to clean and rebuild the carbs. Other than the petcock line, air leaks wont stall the engine unless they are massive. The engine will run rough, but will still run.

[venom51]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Your problem sounds more of a fuel problem than an electrical problem. Covering the air intake is about the same as putting the choke on. The extra vacuum pulls more fuel in and makes it run better. Based on what you have said, I can suggest checking the following in order:

1. Remove the fuel hose at the carb and crank the engine with the hose into a small jar. Fuel should flow freely into the jar while cranking. If it doesn't, its time to check the petcock and fuel inlets at the tank.

2. Check the fuel filter located in the carb where the gas inlet is.

3. Check the vacuum hose that goes between the carbs and the petcock. If this hose has an air leak, the petcock will not pass fuel.

4. Access the air inlet and spray some starting fluid in there. If it starts and runs good for a few seconds, then its definitely a fuel problem.

If you have good fuel flow at the carbs, and it still doesn't run right, you need to clean and rebuild the carbs. Other than the petcock line, air leaks wont stall the engine unless they are massive. The engine will run rough, but will still run.

Thanks for the feedback. I finally got a chance to run through your checklist yesterday on the bike. Here's what I found:

1. Fuel flowed freely from the hose when trying to start the bike.

2. The filter looked fine, I cleaned it anyway and placed it back. I tried starting without it as well but it didn't help.

3. I did my best checking the vacuum hose. It appears to be just fine.

4. No change.

I checked the plugs and they are full of carbon so there's definitely a fuel/air ratio problem. I'm going to replace them.

I did find a small leak coming from a hose under the airbox. The hose ends with a plug. I removed the hose and a little bit of oil leaked out of the bottom of the airbox. Is this normal? Once it finished draining, I drained the hose and replaced it. The oil level of the bike didn't change (obviously) but I'm curious as to why there'd be oil in that hose.

I removed the carb and completely disassembled it. The needles were a little sticky but everything looked in order. I cleaned it and reassembled it.

I'm going to replace the plugs and hope it makes a difference. I'm stumped...

[n4mwd]

The air filter is made to be soaked in oil. That's how it works. So a little seepage is normal.

But if you sprayed starting fluid in there and it didn't run, then it is starting to look like an electrical problem. Start with the obvious - the plugs.

The ignition system has two coils, an ignitor and a crank position sensor. Locate the crank position sensor and test it. How this is done is beyond me, but you need to check it before replacing the ignitor. I suspect you can test it with an ohmmeter. Checking and cleaning all the connections may also be useful.

[n4mwd]

Just stating the obvious here, but when you sprayed starting ether in the intake, you had the choke open not closed right? With starting ether, the carbs are not even required for it to run. Before going out on an electrical safari, maybe recheck the carbs to make sure the ether was getting pulled in.

Also, you might want to double check the choke cable to make sure its working right. A while back, one guy told me he was having trouble with his, so it might be worth a look.

[Lou]

No doubt that this is the best 250 out there! Was having issues with my sisters 07 after replacing a gas line, bike dint want to start. Engine was turning over but it sounded like I wasnt getting any gas. Did the search and ended up putting some starter fluid behind the air filter and it fired right up Thnx for all the great info guys and gals