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Old October 3rd, 2011, 06:42 AM   #1
Warapura
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2011 CBR250 kills the Ninjette on the track?

Just saw the results from the Superstock series that CMRA have been racing. Mods allowed but not to the engine. The first two races and the 2011 CBR250R beats the entire fleet of ninjettes on both occasions, 22 of them in August, and I don't know how many ninjettes it was against in Sept. But it still beat the entire fleet.

Also winning the 2 HR Endurance race in August.

From the CMRA site:

Aug:

RENTMYNINJA.COM E SUPERSTOCK: 1. Ryan Andrews (Hon CBR250R); 2. Alan Phillips (Kaw EX250); 3. Brandon Altmeyer (Kaw EX250); 4. Dustin Dominguez (Kaw EX250); 5. Ryan Max Johnson (Kaw EX250); 6. Austin Gore (Kaw EX250).

2-HOUR MINI ENDURANCE: 1. Davis Rod and Cycle (Derek Wagnon/Jesse Davis/Ryan Andrews/Stephen Guynes/Derek Thomas), Hon CBR250R, Formula 4, 79 laps; 2. Howlie Boyz (Dean Thimjon/Jason Swan/Jim Swan), Kaw EX250, Formula 4, 78 laps; 3. RG&D Racing (Aaron Gore/Austin Gore/Dustin Dominguez/Clayton Schutz/Alan Phillips), Kaw EX250, Formula 4, 78 laps; 4. Scarey Racing (Greg Anderson/Sam Carey/Ricky Parker/Chris Carey/Matt Hall), Kaw EX250, Formula 4, 76 laps; 5. Green Time (Rich Wu/John Deuser), Kaw EX250, Formula 4, 75 laps; 6. Team Cizznakel (Britten Geary/Darnell Dorsey/Danny Dominguez/Keith Cornman), Kaw EX250, Formula 4, 74 laps.

Sept:

E SUPERSTOCK: 1. Ryan Andrews (Hon CBR250R); 2. Brandon Altmeyer (Kaw EX250); 3. Alan Phillips (Kaw EX250); 4. Ryan Max Johnson (Kaw EX250); 5. Zeb Harris (Kaw EX250); 6. Sam Carey (Kaw EX250).


What's going on?
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Old October 3rd, 2011, 06:46 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warapura View Post
Just saw the results from the Superstock series that CMRA have been racing. Mods allowed but not to the engine. The first two races and the 2011 CBR250R beats the entire fleet of ninjettes on both occasions, 22 of them in August, and I don't know how many ninjettes it was against in Sept. But it still beat the entire fleet.

Also winning the 2 HR Endurance race in August.

From the CMRA site:

Aug:

RENTMYNINJA.COM E SUPERSTOCK: 1. Ryan Andrews (Hon CBR250R); 2. Alan Phillips (Kaw EX250); 3. Brandon Altmeyer (Kaw EX250); 4. Dustin Dominguez (Kaw EX250); 5. Ryan Max Johnson (Kaw EX250); 6. Austin Gore (Kaw EX250).

2-HOUR MINI ENDURANCE: 1. Davis Rod and Cycle (Derek Wagnon/Jesse Davis/Ryan Andrews/Stephen Guynes/Derek Thomas), Hon CBR250R, Formula 4, 79 laps; 2. Howlie Boyz (Dean Thimjon/Jason Swan/Jim Swan), Kaw EX250, Formula 4, 78 laps; 3. RG&D Racing (Aaron Gore/Austin Gore/Dustin Dominguez/Clayton Schutz/Alan Phillips), Kaw EX250, Formula 4, 78 laps; 4. Scarey Racing (Greg Anderson/Sam Carey/Ricky Parker/Chris Carey/Matt Hall), Kaw EX250, Formula 4, 76 laps; 5. Green Time (Rich Wu/John Deuser), Kaw EX250, Formula 4, 75 laps; 6. Team Cizznakel (Britten Geary/Darnell Dorsey/Danny Dominguez/Keith Cornman), Kaw EX250, Formula 4, 74 laps.

Sept:

E SUPERSTOCK: 1. Ryan Andrews (Hon CBR250R); 2. Brandon Altmeyer (Kaw EX250); 3. Alan Phillips (Kaw EX250); 4. Ryan Max Johnson (Kaw EX250); 5. Zeb Harris (Kaw EX250); 6. Sam Carey (Kaw EX250).


What's going on?

... Better riding?
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Old October 3rd, 2011, 06:49 AM   #3
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Better design.
I told you guys it was a good bike.
You all keep telling me it's just a glorified dog.
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Old October 3rd, 2011, 06:57 AM   #4
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I think nobody wanted to be in front of it because they'd have to see that hideous front end in the mirrors.

But seriously, it's not fair to say the bike is faster because it came in first. If the lineup was evenly split between kawis and Hondas, and all the Hondas beat all the kawis, well that would be more telling. Even having just one more Honda in the race would paint an infinitely better picture...
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Old October 3rd, 2011, 06:58 AM   #5
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Oh I see, all three results are the same guy.
Did Honda give a pro the bike to win with?
I still think it's not a bad bike.

Man they are talking super stock though, 22 other people had a chance to beat the guy three times and nobody did. Either he is really good or the bike is better.

I can't help but to think there is a bit of both at play.
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Old October 3rd, 2011, 07:00 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by ninja250 View Post
Oh I see, all three results are the same guy.
Did Honda give a pro the bike to win with?
I still think it's not a bad bike.
I don't know. Do they change drivers over the 2 hour endurance race?

2-HOUR MINI ENDURANCE: 1. Davis Rod and Cycle (Derek Wagnon/Jesse Davis/Ryan Andrews/Stephen Guynes/Derek Thomas), Hon CBR250R


Looks like there were 5 different riders?
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Old October 3rd, 2011, 07:52 AM   #7
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I would imagine alot of it IS the same driver, and his quality shows against 22 kawas. I know plenty of ringers that would blow the F away from second gear onward on a pre-gen. You see you're comparing the Honda to the post-gen ninja I would bet. The "track" 250 ninjas I see are all pre-08 and those Hondas are a joke, sorta like the new ninjas.
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Old October 3rd, 2011, 07:58 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by coondog View Post
You see you're comparing the Honda to the post-gen ninja I would bet. The "track" 250 ninjas I see are all pre-08 and those Hondas are a joke, sorta like the new ninjas.
This hasn't been true for several years. The new-gen ninjas make up the entire field in most 250 club racing at this point.
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Old October 3rd, 2011, 08:16 AM   #9
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Precisely my point, which is why they're losing to other mutt bikes. Put a modded pre-gen out there with someone like me on it, racer X etc. Gee I wonder who'll blow everyone off. If i get a real good 150 pound racer and put him on my pre-gen, with a full tank of gas you're looking at 400 lbs. Less weight, more power outright and better torque curve after first gear. Bye Bye.
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Old October 3rd, 2011, 08:27 AM   #10
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I'm sorry John, but that's simply not correct. The pre-gens were immediately not competitive against a well-setup new-gen. The same riders were dropping several seconds with the new design. With the same exhaust & intake mods, the engines get awful close, but what matters most on track is the improved chassis, better wheels/tire options, better brakes, better suspension, along with better high-rpm reliability. The pre-gens are great bikes. But they aren't better on track than the new-gens, sorry.
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Old October 3rd, 2011, 08:32 AM   #11
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Precisely my point, which is why they're losing to other mutt bikes. Put a modded pre-gen out there with someone like me on it, racer X etc. Gee I wonder who'll blow everyone off. If i get a real good 150 pound racer and put him on my pre-gen, with a full tank of gas you're looking at 400 lbs. Less weight, more power outright and better torque curve after first gear. Bye Bye.
But this thread isn't about pregen vs current gen, or pregen vs Honda. It's about the current gen ninja vs the current gen Honda... And if pregens were better on the track, why wouldn't they still be using them?
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Old October 3rd, 2011, 08:44 AM   #12
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too bad the cbr just looks really ugly in my eyes... I got my ninja cause I love the look and the "ninja" appeal, and come on? it's a ninja! they shoot poison darts with their eyes and kill bears with their toe nails
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Old October 3rd, 2011, 09:05 AM   #13
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Ask the guy yourself
http://www.cbr250.net/forum/cbr250-p...ce-winner.html

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Old October 3rd, 2011, 10:26 AM   #14
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I havent ridden the Honda. Stiil...Honda's wins just like Kawa's wins on a track with tweaks, pro or semi pro riders dont really apply to anything but track and the day's rider.Any of you who do track days already know its totally diff from the street and when there's a factory involved...another planet. I hope Kawa is watching because in the end, we'll be the one's who benefit from a coupla good ass whippin's in public. Honda is doing us all a big favor as i see it.
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Old October 19th, 2011, 10:17 PM   #15
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Last race of the season this Saturday. Currently 3-0 to team CBR. Will be interesting to see if they white wash it.
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Old October 20th, 2011, 06:42 AM   #16
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that's awesome about time someone put the heat on kawi. atleast now they will be forced to re-design the 250 to be more competitive. i can see the next gen 250 already w/efi, digital gauges, and other fancy things.

that cbr250 on the dyno sounds pretty beasty. wouldn't mind getting one of them after seeing that.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 11:57 AM   #17
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looks like CBR did well again in super stock.
http://www.cmraracing.com/Results/20...86overall.html
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Old October 24th, 2011, 12:26 PM   #18
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rs250 will beat both of them
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Old October 24th, 2011, 05:59 PM   #19
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looks like CBR did well again in super stock.
http://www.cmraracing.com/Results/20...86overall.html
Race number 3 was close.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 06:13 PM   #20
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I don't care if the CBR250R is faster or better, I wouldn't want to ride something that looks like this:

Bug with big antenna by krazyant, on Flickr

The bug even has a similar color scheme!!
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Old October 24th, 2011, 06:15 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gt_turbo View Post
that's awesome about time someone put the heat on kawi. atleast now they will be forced to re-design the 250 to be more competitive. i can see the next gen 250 already w/efi, digital gauges, and other fancy things.

that cbr250 on the dyno sounds pretty beasty. wouldn't mind getting one of them after seeing that.
Price will go up again to then. One thing that I'd really like to see on a new 250 besides EFI, is ABS.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 06:30 PM   #22
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Wow, guess the RRW comparison result of the two bikes on the track was a bit off.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 06:34 PM   #23
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This Ninjette won a drag race

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Old October 24th, 2011, 08:12 PM   #24
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i read on the other forums that Ryan Andrews's CBR has a velocity stack~ how is that super stock? i thought i remember reading other posts saying that the only air filter mod allowed to the ninjas was the snorkel delete on certain race types.

i think that Ryan must be a really good rider, hehe~ and takes the full advantage of the better torque to get in and out of turns faster? just some thoughts~
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Old October 24th, 2011, 08:14 PM   #25
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I saw 147 and was like wuuuut?! Then I realized it was km/h
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Old October 25th, 2011, 03:18 AM   #26
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This is ridiculous. The ninjas are all over the leaderboards you show below. If it was all Hondas that would be one thing, but it looks like the bikes are competitive. Doesn't say anything about the bikes or their relative speeds at all.

I mean, with Kawis 2-5, does that mean that actually the Kawis dominate the race series? I mean, in manufacturers competition, Kawis take it easily. Does that mean almost no one can competitively race a Honda except Andrews? That you'd be better off going with a Kawi because it is more easy to race it well? You can't judge on one placing of one guy. What if Ryan Andrews just has more experience or is a good rider? Or if Andrews daddy is a rich businessman who pours money into his team when the second place guy does all his own work. Or, more to the point, what if Andrews has the advantage of a velocity stack on his bike?

This is the second post like this you've made, and it was established in the other thread you ride a CBR. And I note that the only contributions you make to these forums is to bash ninjettes in favor of CBRs because Ryan Andrews is good rider who runs a velocity stack, which has nothing to do with bike quality. Get yourself back to the CBR forum and stop trolling here every time Andrews wins a race. Good for him for being a good rider, but too bad the CBR can't seem to put more than one bike in a series good enough to make the results. Perhaps because it is so ugly no one wants to race one, and perhaps because only Andrews' rich daddy can afford the aftermarket parts on the thing because they are so scarce.
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Old October 25th, 2011, 03:29 AM   #27
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Ninja Wins Shootout

Hmmm, this magazine says the 4 year old ninjette beats the new Honda. You'd think Honda would have had an advantage over an older bike.

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/9/9134...inja-250R.aspx

Quote:
"There’s no question the Honda runs better off the bottom, especially when cold,” says Waheed, “but once you get the Kawasaki going and under power it quickly pulls ahead. There’s no question it’s quicker everywhere throughout the rev range with the exception of the first eighth turn of throttle. Besides that there’s no doubt the Kawasaki has the Honda’s number when it comes to the engine department."
Hey, here's an idea. How about I go over to your CBR forum and start posting quotes like this? Though in fairness, I wouldn't, because an honest appraisal says that the bikes are really closely matched. And to go over to someone else's forum and imply that one bike is seriously better because of one article, or a single racer, would be kind of a douche thing to do.
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Old October 25th, 2011, 03:34 AM   #28
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Ninja Wins Another Shootout

Geez, these magazines keep saying how much better the Ninja is on a track than the Honda. How is it that Honda didn't really beat the Ninjette despite all the advantage of getting to engineer a bike with your competitor's specs known so well? Probably for the same reason they screwed up the bug-like look of the front end and the god-awful looking exhaust, I guess.

http://www.bsmotoring.com/news/honda...mikraze/3756/6

Quote:
Overall, the CBR is a great handling motorcycle, even though the chassis and suspension lag behind the ever-willing motor. If we were at a race track, the Ninja would’ve run rings around the CBR, thanks to its more sorted handling and that bonkers rev-happy motor. . . if it’s outright performance that you want, wrapped in that shade of green, the Kawasaki is still the one for you.
Gosh, getting really tempted to head to your forum and start bashing the CBR. Nah, still really unfair to do that. After all, this magazine calls it really close and notes that (in India at least where the CBR is made and therefore a bit cheaper) it is a better value. Still too much of a passive aggressive thing to goto the forum of a competitor bike and say their bike is slow. You know anyone who might do something like that Warapura?
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Old October 25th, 2011, 04:03 AM   #29
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Price will go up again to then. One thing that I'd really like to see on a new 250 besides EFI, is ABS.
What, like the CBR250R ABS model?
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Old October 25th, 2011, 04:08 AM   #30
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This is ridiculous. The ninjas are all over the leaderboards you show below.
Umm, that's because their was only one CBR that joined the series with 4 races to go. It won each of those.

In the first race it beat 22 ninjettes, the next races it won, but I'm not sure how many ninjettes were running because it only shows the loser's positions from 2nd to 10th.
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Old October 25th, 2011, 04:10 AM   #31
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Gosh, getting really tempted to head to your forum and start bashing the CBR. Nah, still really unfair to do that. After all, this magazine calls it really close and notes that (in India at least where the CBR is made and therefore a bit cheaper) it is a better value. Still too much of a passive aggressive thing to goto the forum of a competitor bike and say their bike is slow. You know anyone who might do something like that Warapura?


Geez, sorry that ye guys don't take it very well, but seems there's quite a bit of paranoia on here.

Was just posting the results of the only race series I know where these two bikes have raced against each other.

Chill.
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Old October 25th, 2011, 04:26 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Warapura View Post
Umm, that's because their was only one CBR that joined the series with 4 races to go. It won each of those.

In the first race it beat 22 ninjettes, the next races it won, but I'm not sure how many ninjettes were running because it only shows the loser's positions from 2nd to 10th.
Ummm, that's because the ninjette is a better race bike overall that is overwhelmingly preferred on the track. Congrats to Andrews for being a good rider with an advantage with his stack. Put a group of Kawis against another group of CBRs and you'd see a nice distribution, most likely with the Kawis doing better overall. Regardless, it says nothing about the speed of the bikes, or their comparative advantages off the showroom floor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warapura View Post
Was just posting the results of the only race series I know where these two bikes have raced against each other.
No, you were just trolling a ninjette forum because you are a CBR rider who likes to take a singer rider with and technical advantage out of context of the overall merits of the respective bikes. There are points to be made in both directions, but none of it has to do with this result. Objective tests, time after time, say that the ninjette is a quicker track bike with mixed results on which bike is better overall, as it seems largely to be a matter of personal preference. For me, I'm really suprised it is that close when Honda had 4 years to try to out-engineer the ninjette, and they still couldn't do it.

For example, my ninjette makes 30hp on its two cylinders with only minor mods. What does your CBR do? I think you can beat me on the low end, but with the revs up in race conditions I'd smoke you. I would not, however, smoke Andrews, who appears to be an outstanding rider. Has nothing to do with the merits of the bikes, though.

Again, get thee back to your CBR forums.
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Old October 25th, 2011, 05:50 AM   #33
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Paranoia is a strange thing.


Hopefully a few of those ninja teams will switch over to the CBR for next season, or that there will be more racing series in which the two bikes compete against each other, as it's interesting to see kawa/honda 250s go against each other in a professional Superstock race series.

It being a total whitewash for Honda I bet the kawa teams will be going all out to try and save face. Interesting next season for sure.

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Old October 25th, 2011, 06:23 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Warapura View Post
as it's interesting to see kawa/honda 250s go against each other in a professional Superstock race series.
You do realize that the CMRA isn't that, and in fact there isn't any significant professional Superstock race series with a 4-stroke 250 class at the moment, right?
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Old October 25th, 2011, 06:46 AM   #35
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I'd also love to see a full year of competition with multiple teams, particularly if ever there were a professional 250 class competition. Great for the sport, and for all of us, to have two manufacturers battling it out. I'd love to see what the Kawi guys do to counter all the prototype parts they are putting on the CBR. For the record, the mods on the purportedly stock CBR for the race: Road And Track Suspension setup including Penske shock; prototype M4 Exhaust; prototype Bazzaz FI and quickshifter. And with all those mods, you know what the guys on the Kawi team said?

Quote:
Ryan (Andrews) proved he could beat us on a tricycle if he had to.
This has nothing to do with what you get out of box on these bikes, where the Kawi would be objectively better on the track. And given Ryan Andrews history of success racing in CRMA (he gave the endurance team a huge advantage on his laps, btw, with other laps by other riders NOT beating the Kawis it looks like) it may have nothing to do with the bikes as they are set up for the superstock racing. Without more of a competition in the series, with a wider variety of riders, hard to say which would be better in the long run. Either way, I'm happy to see the competition, and someone finally challenging Kawi.

My main point here is that you came to a ninjette forum to troll without a well thought out point, which is a pretty obnoxious thing to do.
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Old October 25th, 2011, 07:01 AM   #36
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My main point here is that you came to a ninjette forum to troll without a well thought out point, which is a pretty obnoxious thing to do.
@Warapura .... and your response sir???
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Old October 25th, 2011, 04:51 PM   #37
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@Warapura .... and your response sir???
No response because Floyd's point is to the point...as always! The man is good with a hammer...knows how to hit those nails smack dab on the head.
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Old October 25th, 2011, 05:14 PM   #38
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No response because Floyd's point is to the point...as always! The man is good with a hammer...knows how to hit those nails smack dab on the head.
+1
For once, I agree with Floyd.
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Old October 25th, 2011, 05:14 PM   #39
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Old October 25th, 2011, 05:37 PM   #40
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gfloyd2002:

Sir, you are indeed a Blatant Homosapien and I always appreciate your reasoned, thorough posts.
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