Loud, Cool, Horsepower Goodness - Page 2

kbryant · May 24th, 2009, 03:08 PM

Richard - Before you start stating those kinds of differences, you should be showing crediable actual data from your comparison runs. If you are only showing just over 2 hp increase from stock to Area P, than obviously there are details not being stated, as we have dyno'd dozens of bikes with 3.5 - 5 hp increases.
Same bike?, Same day, Conditions?, Jetting specs?, Other changes to the bike from one run to the other?

I have no doubt that a properly designed race only exhaust can put out more power. No debating that point, and it does look very cool. But it wasn't what we set out to do. Must be street-able, fit without any fairing mods, and be affordable.

Rocketman · May 24th, 2009, 04:19 PM

Why are you getting defensive ? all he did was show a dyno comparison...didn't claim it was the best bang for your buck Exhaust on the market lol

ztrack157 · May 24th, 2009, 04:25 PM

I don't think thats what Kerry is arguing. More to the fact Richard's dyno was showing gains less than anyone else has with an AP. Plus we don't know all the other details.

Rocketman · May 24th, 2009, 05:36 PM

Yeah...what else is new everyone plays up their product...and I don't think you can disagree Sportisi master.

lol

ztrack157 · May 24th, 2009, 06:14 PM

nope I'm as guilty as everyone else.

TheGoodLyfe · May 24th, 2009, 08:13 PM

Is anyone seriously considering biting the bullet and purchasing one of these pipes?

i916it · May 24th, 2009, 08:30 PM

Yeah, in the future when they get a silencer.
I don't wanna run into a decibel restricted track -_-

backinthesaddleagain · May 24th, 2009, 08:33 PM

vendor wars - ok first exhaust sent to me by either company for $100 wins!!

TheGoodLyfe · May 24th, 2009, 09:11 PM

Has anyone considered this pipe for steet riding? I'm sure w/o the silencer it would peturb neighbors but I bet many aftermarket pipes already do a good job at that!

miks · May 24th, 2009, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

vendor wars - ok first exhaust sent to me by either company for $100 wins!!

LOL!

Good luck with that!

kbryant · May 25th, 2009, 08:45 AM

It's all good natured. Richard sells our exhaust systems so we're just giving him a little jab.

Read - "I have no doubt that a properly designed race only exhaust can put out more power. No debating that point and it does look very cool."

gizmogamez · May 25th, 2009, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocketman

Yeah...what else is new everyone plays up their product...and I don't think you can disagree Sportisi master.

lol

that is not true!!!!

btw...I sell special gum that makes you ride faster when you chew it...great deal at only $10/pack

Rocketman · May 26th, 2009, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gizmogamez

that is not true!!!!

btw...I sell special gum that makes you ride faster when you chew it...great deal at only $10/pack

If it comes with ultra cool sponsorship stickers I can put on my bike then ill take a whole case !....how much for shipping.

wyckedflesh · May 26th, 2009, 10:45 PM

You know Kerry, very valid points. Glad you stepped up and tried to inform those who aren't as informed about Dynos.

Let's take a stab at what is being seen:
Richard being an upright person would have (I hoped) ran the dyno run with the AreaP he was comparing it to, and as we see, either his elevation is making the runs weak, or he is using an unhappy dyno. He then takes off the AreaP exhaust and runs the new Race pipes, without rejetting (per his comment) and makes the increase in power we see. Which shows on his unhappy higher elevation dyno has a 3 HP gain.

If the above is true, its not the final actual numbers, but the accurate comparison between the 2 pipes on the same dyno on the same day.

Now if that is all bogus, then well, I guess I just made an Ass out of U and ME :-)

As this is a race pipe, being compared to a street pipe,why not make a "Street" comparison and a Race Comparison, if your spending $800 for a RACE pipe that you can't get away with on the street, why not go all out and throw in the 31mm CR Flat Slides from Sudco?

RaceBikeRentals · May 27th, 2009, 06:21 AM

I've been traveling to races and up to Montana, so have been a bit out of touch the past several days. I think there might be a couple misconceptions about these pipes floating around. Please keep in mind that these are RACE pipes. Wes never designed them with street riding in mind. They are really too loud for the street, unless you're one of those in-your-face kind of people (like Harley riders, hehe). Kerry at Area-P and other manufs are doing a fine job of fulfilling the street niche, as well as racing. Heck, I personally own 8 Area-P exhausts. They're a very good product

I felt the dyno chart provided to me and posted on my store page was accurate. The comparison between stock and Area-P was extremely close to what I experienced with before/after dyno runs on my personal bike a year ago. As most know, dynos can fluctuate minute-to-minute, and results should be interpreted cautiously. I have posted a different dyno run on the store page which shows a slightly different curve. The Totsubo pipe continues to show very large gains in HP and a fatter mid-range as it should. Its a no-compromise, loud race pipe.

My butt dyno time with the pipe tells me that it allows the little 250 engine to rev between about 10K and redline much easier than anything else I've ridden with. 2-3 HP is really not that noticeable on a 330lb bike. What makes a difference is how the pipe allows you to shift at different positions on the track, and drive earlier out of a corner. At a track like Willow Springs, where input and mistakes on a Ninja 250R are measured in microseconds, this can make a huge difference in a lap.

If anyone has any specific questions about the results or the pipe, please do direct them at me or Wes. We'll do our best to answer them and make sure accurate info is available to all. No hidden agendas: I just sell the things and Wes isn't looking to sell a million of em. Its a boutique product that will suit only a few

RSPILOT · May 27th, 2009, 06:46 AM

Amen to that brother. Very eloquently stated.

Broom · May 27th, 2009, 07:58 AM

the HP ratings shown on a dyno chart arn't always the actual rating anyways. my dyno chart shows below 30, but after some fancy calculating by my tuner he came up with a number over 30.... i have no idea how it all works, but theres more to it than just looking at the numbers on the graph some times

almost40 · May 27th, 2009, 08:39 AM

I have to second Brooms comments. My dyno chat shows 32 hp with the quiet core Area P. Its the highest one I have ever seen on any aftermarket pipe. Now, either Im the best carb tuner in the world (which I seriously doubt) I have the strongest 250 Kawi has built (which I doubt) or there is "fudge" factor from dyno to dyno and tester to tester. All dynos are different, all results will vary from dyno to dyno. My advice would be pick a quality product and the sound level your looking for. Dont worry too much about the dyno charts.

gizmogamez · May 27th, 2009, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocketman

If it comes with ultra cool sponsorship stickers I can put on my bike then ill take a whole case !....how much for shipping.

you're in Ontario.... I'll ride it out to you with a nominal delivery charge of 1 full tank of gas lol.
I don't have sponsorship stickers, but I do have some scratch and sniffs laying around I could give you

aloh · May 31st, 2009, 01:50 AM

gorgeous looking exhaust! Its just way out of my budget for a motorcycle exhaust. My full catback exhaust for my cage has ALOT more piping and was imported and costs only a little more than that exhaust. Sounds really mean though.

Got any pics of the exhaust system alone, not installed?

Racer x · May 31st, 2009, 05:32 AM

When some looks at a dyno chart . What is the difference between an RPM scale across the bottom? and a speed in MPH scale across the bottom.

I read somewhere to be Leary of speed scale measured runs . Because you don't know the gear the bike was in while testing.

ztrack157 · May 31st, 2009, 08:39 PM

^ ya I've heard that to.

No one dyno is the same nor the bike, tech, or exhaust. Numbers are all over the place no matter what exhaust it is but they are within the standard deviation for the product.

Richard I know you said you have certain restrictions at places like infenion. But what I want to know is when tracking it how does it compare to the area p. Please be objective in describing the highsnd the lows of each.

Side note:
I had Mike take his Sportisi VR to the dyno. It was a victory dealer or something like that. The guy who did the dyno screwed up and I'm still waiting to see if their gonna correct the chart which the proper stuff. It showed numbers that were to good. The problem was when I looked at the RPM scale on the bottom it said 7000RPM's at peak HP then the rpms didn't go on any further beyond 7000. The Ninja 250 peak is more in the 11000 range if I remember correctly. So, I know in this case the numbers are not what they should be. Any Idea wtf the victory guy did wrong? He told mike he needed to download specs or something to adjust the chart.

shporsche · June 1st, 2009, 12:27 AM

That sounds and looks the part.
Mad set of pipes, I want.

RaceBikeRentals · June 2nd, 2009, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ztrack157

^ ya I've heard that to.

No one dyno is the same nor the bike, tech, or exhaust. Numbers are all over the place no matter what exhaust it is but they are within the standard deviation for the product.

Richard I know you said you have certain restrictions at places like infenion. But what I want to know is when tracking it how does it compare to the area p. Please be objective in describing the highsnd the lows of each.

Side note:
I had Mike take his Sportisi VR to the dyno. It was a victory dealer or something like that. The guy who did the dyno screwed up and I'm still waiting to see if their gonna correct the chart which the proper stuff. It showed numbers that were to good. The problem was when I looked at the RPM scale on the bottom it said 7000RPM's at peak HP then the rpms didn't go on any further beyond 7000. The Ninja 250 peak is more in the 11000 range if I remember correctly. So, I know in this case the numbers are not what they should be. Any Idea wtf the victory guy did wrong? He told mike he needed to download specs or something to adjust the chart.

Red line for the 250R is far north of 11,000.

The pipe pulls harder from about 10,000 to rev-limiter than the Area P. It seems to breathe better in that range. That said, since the pipe is so strong in the upper mid-range, and the peak power does fall off at around 11-12k, short shifting might make for better speed when possible.

As far as being noticeably more powerful than the Area P, not for me. I need around 20% more HP to notice a difference. This pipe isn't going to magically transform the bike into something it isn't. But, if its worth .5 seconds a lap, then its def worth it

ROADandTRACK · June 5th, 2009, 06:38 PM

No way is it worth .5 second a lap.

RaceBikeRentals · June 8th, 2009, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROADandTRACK

No way is it worth .5 second a lap.

And what do you base this opinion on?

ROADandTRACK · June 9th, 2009, 08:51 AM

Experience.

That aftermarket pipe over the other one is not worth .5 second.

.5 second is an a bit much. A 10th maybe.

They aren't that much different.

M.J.M. · June 10th, 2009, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROADandTRACK

Experience.

That aftermarket pipe over the other one is not worth .5 second.

.5 second is an a bit much. A 10th maybe.

They aren't that much different.

I know I'm new here and not trying to be a smarta$$, but do you know this fact from testing the exhaust systems in question? I just want to know, it would help me in purchasing an exhaust system. Thanks

tinng321 · June 10th, 2009, 10:15 AM

I don't think there's a test that can accurately measure this.
Driver/rider skills also come into play.

RSPILOT · June 10th, 2009, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinng321

I don't think there's a test that can accurately measure this.
Driver/rider skills also come into play.

Sure there is. It's the racetrack. Same bike, same track, same rider. Testing whatever back to back. The track is the ultimate Dyno.

demp · June 22nd, 2009, 02:03 PM

I'm really tempted to just get one a these and use it on the street... think the cops would mind? XD

diy · July 2nd, 2009, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by demp

I'm really tempted to just get one a these and use it on the street... think the cops would mind? XD

Me too, How much faring needs to be cut?

RaceBikeRentals · July 3rd, 2009, 05:22 AM

The pipe will fit with no fairing modification. It will be close to your lower, so you may wish to put a piece of muffler shield on the fairing inside, but should be fine.

diy · July 4th, 2009, 10:27 PM

Are these basically open pipes? Doesn't the hurt the torque and higher speeds.

RaceBikeRentals · July 5th, 2009, 07:11 AM

They have baffles in each pipe, so not a straight pipe.

May 24th, 2009, 04:25 PM	#43
ztrack157 The Sportisi Master Name: Matt Location: Chico Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.	I don't think thats what Kerry is arguing. More to the fact Richard's dyno was showing gains less than anyone else has with an AP. Plus we don't know all the other details. __________________________________________________ Sportisimoto USA is born. Last futzed with by ztrack157; May 24th, 2009 at 06:14 PM. Reason: bad grammar

May 24th, 2009, 06:14 PM	#45
ztrack157 The Sportisi Master Name: Matt Location: Chico Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.	nope I'm as guilty as everyone else. __________________________________________________ Sportisimoto USA is born.

May 27th, 2009, 06:21 AM	#55
RaceBikeRentals Pimpin Name: Richard Location: Ninja 250 Whorehouse Join Date: Nov 2008 Motorcycle(s): Bunch of em Posts: 973	I've been traveling to races and up to Montana, so have been a bit out of touch the past several days. I think there might be a couple misconceptions about these pipes floating around. Please keep in mind that these are RACE pipes. Wes never designed them with street riding in mind. They are really too loud for the street, unless you're one of those in-your-face kind of people (like Harley riders, hehe). Kerry at Area-P and other manufs are doing a fine job of fulfilling the street niche, as well as racing. Heck, I personally own 8 Area-P exhausts. They're a very good product I felt the dyno chart provided to me and posted on my store page was accurate. The comparison between stock and Area-P was extremely close to what I experienced with before/after dyno runs on my personal bike a year ago. As most know, dynos can fluctuate minute-to-minute, and results should be interpreted cautiously. I have posted a different dyno run on the store page which shows a slightly different curve. The Totsubo pipe continues to show very large gains in HP and a fatter mid-range as it should. Its a no-compromise, loud race pipe. My butt dyno time with the pipe tells me that it allows the little 250 engine to rev between about 10K and redline much easier than anything else I've ridden with. 2-3 HP is really not that noticeable on a 330lb bike. What makes a difference is how the pipe allows you to shift at different positions on the track, and drive earlier out of a corner. At a track like Willow Springs, where input and mistakes on a Ninja 250R are measured in microseconds, this can make a huge difference in a lap. If anyone has any specific questions about the results or the pipe, please do direct them at me or Wes. We'll do our best to answer them and make sure accurate info is available to all. No hidden agendas: I just sell the things and Wes isn't looking to sell a million of em. Its a boutique product that will suit only a few __________________________________________________ -Richard MotoList.com <<<List your stuff!

May 27th, 2009, 07:58 AM	#57
Broom Track Junkie Name: Jon Location: Dallas Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250r Track Bike, DR350 commuter, KDX220 woods bike Posts: 602	the HP ratings shown on a dyno chart arn't always the actual rating anyways. my dyno chart shows below 30, but after some fancy calculating by my tuner he came up with a number over 30.... i have no idea how it all works, but theres more to it than just looking at the numbers on the graph some times __________________________________________________ Las Escobas -- Track Bikes Save Lives JonBroom.com

May 27th, 2009, 08:39 AM	#58
almost40 ninjette.org Monkey Spank Name: Kevin Location: Illinois Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 250R Track-Bike Woodcraft clip-ons and rearsets FZ-6 track bike Posts: A lot.	I have to second Brooms comments. My dyno chat shows 32 hp with the quiet core Area P. Its the highest one I have ever seen on any aftermarket pipe. Now, either Im the best carb tuner in the world (which I seriously doubt) I have the strongest 250 Kawi has built (which I doubt) or there is "fudge" factor from dyno to dyno and tester to tester. All dynos are different, all results will vary from dyno to dyno. My advice would be pick a quality product and the sound level your looking for. Dont worry too much about the dyno charts. __________________________________________________ Black 250R Full Area P QC Dyno Jet Kit 100 main 41T Rear Sprocket

May 24th, 2009, 03:08 PM	#41
kbryant Area P Name: Kerry Location: SoCal & South Florida Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): Too many to list Posts: 439	Richard - Before you start stating those kinds of differences, you should be showing crediable actual data from your comparison runs. If you are only showing just over 2 hp increase from stock to Area P, than obviously there are details not being stated, as we have dyno'd dozens of bikes with 3.5 - 5 hp increases. Same bike?, Same day, Conditions?, Jetting specs?, Other changes to the bike from one run to the other? I have no doubt that a properly designed race only exhaust can put out more power. No debating that point, and it does look very cool. But it wasn't what we set out to do. Must be street-able, fit without any fairing mods, and be affordable.

May 24th, 2009, 04:19 PM	#42
Rocketman ninjette.org member Name: James Location: Ontario Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 250r special edition Posts: 84	Why are you getting defensive ? all he did was show a dyno comparison...didn't claim it was the best bang for your buck Exhaust on the market lol

May 24th, 2009, 05:36 PM	#44
Rocketman ninjette.org member Name: James Location: Ontario Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2009 250r special edition Posts: 84	Yeah...what else is new everyone plays up their product...and I don't think you can disagree Sportisi master. lol

May 24th, 2009, 08:13 PM	#46
TheGoodLyfe ninjette.org member Name: Jason Location: Federal Way / Spokane Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): Looking For 2008 Ninja 250R Posts: 84	Is anyone seriously considering biting the bullet and purchasing one of these pipes?

May 24th, 2009, 08:30 PM	#47
i916it ninjette.org member Name: Sky Location: Sacramento Join Date: Mar 2009 Motorcycle(s): 250R 08 Posts: 63	Yeah, in the future when they get a silencer. I don't wanna run into a decibel restricted track -_-

May 24th, 2009, 08:33 PM	#48
backinthesaddleagain ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Greg Location: Rhode Island Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2013 ZX6R 636 Posts: A lot.	vendor wars - ok first exhaust sent to me by either company for $100 wins!!

May 24th, 2009, 09:11 PM	#49
TheGoodLyfe ninjette.org member Name: Jason Location: Federal Way / Spokane Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): Looking For 2008 Ninja 250R Posts: 84	Has anyone considered this pipe for steet riding? I'm sure w/o the silencer it would peturb neighbors but I bet many aftermarket pipes already do a good job at that!

May 25th, 2009, 08:45 AM	#51
kbryant Area P Name: Kerry Location: SoCal & South Florida Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): Too many to list Posts: 439	It's all good natured. Richard sells our exhaust systems so we're just giving him a little jab. Read - "I have no doubt that a properly designed race only exhaust can put out more power. No debating that point and it does look very cool."

May 26th, 2009, 10:45 PM	#54
wyckedflesh ninjette.org guru Name: Mikel Location: Valley of the Sun Join Date: Mar 2009 Motorcycle(s): '09 Blue Kawasaki KLE650 Versys, '95 Ducati 900SS/CR (undergoing track conversion) Posts: 287	You know Kerry, very valid points. Glad you stepped up and tried to inform those who aren't as informed about Dynos. Let's take a stab at what is being seen: Richard being an upright person would have (I hoped) ran the dyno run with the AreaP he was comparing it to, and as we see, either his elevation is making the runs weak, or he is using an unhappy dyno. He then takes off the AreaP exhaust and runs the new Race pipes, without rejetting (per his comment) and makes the increase in power we see. Which shows on his unhappy higher elevation dyno has a 3 HP gain. If the above is true, its not the final actual numbers, but the accurate comparison between the 2 pipes on the same dyno on the same day. Now if that is all bogus, then well, I guess I just made an Ass out of U and ME :-) As this is a race pipe, being compared to a street pipe,why not make a "Street" comparison and a Race Comparison, if your spending $800 for a RACE pipe that you can't get away with on the street, why not go all out and throw in the 31mm CR Flat Slides from Sudco?

May 27th, 2009, 06:46 AM	#56
RSPILOT ninjette.org member Name: Wes Location: SoCal Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): Too many. Some are in the house. Posts: 75	Amen to that brother. Very eloquently stated.

May 31st, 2009, 01:50 AM	#60
aloh lolwut Name: Alex Location: socal Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: 196	gorgeous looking exhaust! Its just way out of my budget for a motorcycle exhaust. My full catback exhaust for my cage has ALOT more piping and was imported and costs only a little more than that exhaust. Sounds really mean though. Got any pics of the exhaust system alone, not installed? __________________________________________________ 08 Blue Ninja 250R

May 31st, 2009, 05:32 AM	#61
Racer x ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Eric Location: Iowa City Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 54 MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16	When some looks at a dyno chart . What is the difference between an RPM scale across the bottom? and a speed in MPH scale across the bottom. I read somewhere to be Leary of speed scale measured runs . Because you don't know the gear the bike was in while testing.

May 31st, 2009, 08:39 PM	#62
ztrack157 The Sportisi Master Name: Matt Location: Chico Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Ninja 250 Posts: A lot.	^ ya I've heard that to. No one dyno is the same nor the bike, tech, or exhaust. Numbers are all over the place no matter what exhaust it is but they are within the standard deviation for the product. Richard I know you said you have certain restrictions at places like infenion. But what I want to know is when tracking it how does it compare to the area p. Please be objective in describing the highsnd the lows of each. Side note: I had Mike take his Sportisi VR to the dyno. It was a victory dealer or something like that. The guy who did the dyno screwed up and I'm still waiting to see if their gonna correct the chart which the proper stuff. It showed numbers that were to good. The problem was when I looked at the RPM scale on the bottom it said 7000RPM's at peak HP then the rpms didn't go on any further beyond 7000. The Ninja 250 peak is more in the 11000 range if I remember correctly. So, I know in this case the numbers are not what they should be. Any Idea wtf the victory guy did wrong? He told mike he needed to download specs or something to adjust the chart. __________________________________________________ Sportisimoto USA is born.

June 1st, 2009, 12:27 AM	#63
shporsche ninjette.org member Name: sean Location: Sydney Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250 09 Posts: 61	That sounds and looks the part. Mad set of pipes, I want.

June 5th, 2009, 06:38 PM	#65
ROADandTRACK R&T Suspension Name: K Hertell Location: San Antonio, TEXAS Join Date: Jun 2009 Motorcycle(s): Too many to list Posts: 175	No way is it worth .5 second a lap.

June 9th, 2009, 08:51 AM	#67
ROADandTRACK R&T Suspension Name: K Hertell Location: San Antonio, TEXAS Join Date: Jun 2009 Motorcycle(s): Too many to list Posts: 175	Experience. That aftermarket pipe over the other one is not worth .5 second. .5 second is an a bit much. A 10th maybe. They aren't that much different.

June 10th, 2009, 10:15 AM	#69
tinng321 ninjette.org sage Name: Tin Location: NJ Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): 08 black 250r (sold); '09 black zx6r Posts: 903	I don't think there's a test that can accurately measure this. Driver/rider skills also come into play.

June 22nd, 2009, 02:03 PM	#71
demp ninjette.org sage Name: Matthew Location: Toronto Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2015 V-Star 950 Tourer (Deep Blue) Posts: 570	I'm really tempted to just get one a these and use it on the street... think the cops would mind? XD

July 3rd, 2009, 05:22 AM	#73
RaceBikeRentals Pimpin Name: Richard Location: Ninja 250 Whorehouse Join Date: Nov 2008 Motorcycle(s): Bunch of em Posts: 973	The pipe will fit with no fairing modification. It will be close to your lower, so you may wish to put a piece of muffler shield on the fairing inside, but should be fine. __________________________________________________ -Richard MotoList.com <<<List your stuff!

July 4th, 2009, 10:27 PM	#74
diy ninjette.org newbie Name: Diy Location: gilroy Join Date: Jul 2009 Motorcycle(s): None yet Posts: 3	Are these basically open pipes? Doesn't the hurt the torque and higher speeds.

July 5th, 2009, 07:11 AM	#75
RaceBikeRentals Pimpin Name: Richard Location: Ninja 250 Whorehouse Join Date: Nov 2008 Motorcycle(s): Bunch of em Posts: 973	They have baffles in each pipe, so not a straight pipe. __________________________________________________ -Richard MotoList.com <<<List your stuff!

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