Should the CVMA 250 Class be segregated by experience (EXPERT/AMATEUR) next season?

[Nemesis]

I didn’t want to hijack the other CVMA thread, and I think this topic deserves its own. I really encourage you current/potential/guest CVMA 250 racers to participate in the thread.

Originally Posted by dino74

Jon/Andrew, you guys moving to expert before September?

Since I got to do a little repainting of the bike , I'm going to move my numbers from the windscreen to the front cowl. According to the rules you need 60 points in two weekends and I got 77 in the last two. Should I buy a can of white paint or yellow paint?

Okay, I know this has been a topic from the beginning of this year but here's my take:

Currently the class is not segregated by experience/status:

There's really no point in moving to expert if you're an amateur in the 250 class unless you plan on racing in another class that is already segregated by experience level (i.e. 600cc & up classes). I highly recommend you stay as a novice/amateur in the event you wish to graduate/move to another class that is. More as to why later.


However if we opt for segregation next season here are the pros/cons:

Pros:

• Amateurs will battle for podium/trophies
• Amateurs may receive contingency for podiums
• Grid size for amateurs are huge and will continue to grow

Cons:
From my experience and analytical observation, if you segregate the class by experience (expert/amateur) there's a high chance the class will die off. This is what happened with WSMC and will most likely happen with CVMA if you do. You amateurs may not see this now because it's your first year racing but when I was racing with WSMC my times were a good seconds slower than the experts. Although I got on the podium and won a race or two in the Novice class I dreaded going to the expert class because the chances of me podiuming was very slim. And I think there were others who felt the same...so we really didn't feel a need to push ourselves to become better. In fact, a racer who had won the novice class the prior year competed in the novice class the following year because said racer's time wasn't quick enough to compete in the expert class. Well, that's my understanding or so I've heard. And that's my point...when you separate the class there seems to be this comfort zone in the novice/amateur class where people think classes are separated by laptimes. Which isn't the case. In addition, those who won/competed in the novice class sought no reason to compete in the expert class and left the class/series (WSMC). And as a result the expert grid started to dwindle down, and the class/WSMC was no more. Granted there were other reasons that played a part but having a strong grid showing as a whole has more benefits than not: If you keep the group as a whole not only will current racers strive, race, and compete harder but it will also attract more and make cheap racing cheap(er).

Also need to mention, if you segregate the class, and amateurs are forced to bump up to Expert status...those who plan on racing in another class will be forced to race as Experts which is a huge deterrent. Ask Darren (Demented) about this.

For the good of the class I think it's best not to segregate the class for reasons I stated above.

But I'd really like to hear your side because after all you are a part of this group and your voice does matter so I encourage you to speak up.

[cynicalkit]

The way it is currently I think its great that we can pay out 1st 2nd and 3rd for you guys. I doubt it will be big enough to pay that if we split. I don't want the class to die. Seeing you guys way up there is a mixed feeling of disheartening and drive. Although I may be getting better, I am still really far away and will not be getting kudos anytime in the near future. All I can do is try my best. I still vote to keep it together.

[Dmented]

I got fast by being in the same class...
I believe others will benefit from lining up at the start with the fast guy's. for instance... anyone could have followed REXBO when he had to start from last place. that was a free available tow that no one would get if you split it.

plus .. i KNOW it would die if we segregated them... PLUS PLUS, everyone would bitch about how long the race day is!

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by cynicalkit

The way it is currently I think its great that we can pay out 1st 2nd and 3rd for you guys. I doubt it will be big enough to pay that if we split. I don't want the class to die. Seeing you guys way up there is a mixed feeling of disheartening and drive. Although I may be getting better, I am still really far away and will not be getting kudos anytime in the near future. All I can do is try my best. I still vote to keep it together.

At the same time, being an Amateur , I do want you guys to be rewarded for your efforts.

I can work something out with CVMA to reward a trophy & cash purse for you Amateurs at the end of the season (i.e. for overall points).

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by Dmented

I got fast by being in the same class...
I believe others will benefit from lining up at the start with the fast guy's. for instance... anyone could have followed REXBO when he had to start from last place. that was a free available tow that no one would get if you split it.

Werd!

Did you see Alex's start? Bastard past me going into T1. And I had freakin' pole! I didn't realize that was him until I watched his vid.

[Rexbo]

I definitely believe it would die if split, HOWEVER since it is an entry level class, there should be some kind of rewards for the amateurs. Maybe an informal reward trophy for top amateur?

And in the spirit of having a really fun grid maybe the experts should treat the "graduating" amateurs to something at the end of the year, or in this case the beginning of the new season. Actually, since we're already whores enough and always mentoring the new racers, maybe we should do an AFM style thing where the experts mentor new racers, help them improve and get their race game polished.

EDIT: to be clear, you're talking about a championship points split as well as starting in a different wave/qualifying position. Championship points, possibly yes, no reason not to have their own trophies/contingency. Starting wave and qualifying no, so that the amateurs can race with the experts and get a tow like Darren said, and also earn the points to move into expert.

BTW: Jon its about time you got rid of the yellow plate, you've been racing for like 4 years.

[Havok]

I voted yes to split but with reservations. I think it would be nice for amateurs to have a prize at the end, recognition among racers in there own skill group perhaps a bit of contingency money to off set a little of the expenses.

At the same time sandbagging to stay there or no drive to advance as you stated can stale out the class as well. This would have to be fixed with rule changes, win x amount of times auto bump to expert. X number of points auto bump to expert. To avoid the issue Darren faces right now and what others would face if they wanted to race a diffrent class would have to come from CVMA and them allowing a person to be considered expert in one class bit amateur in another. So say Darren could be expert in 250 class but run amateur in open. With out that rule change in no way can you split the class. As someone who will be a new racer and a slow one at that, I would hate to see less people want to race a 250 or pigeon hole current racers for a plastic trophy.

As far as what Alex said, I don't see the huge time difference or issues with keeping the races as they are. Experts and amateurs still grid up the same, start the same and race with eachother just at the end of the day top 3 E gets some plastic, top 3 A gets some plastic.

I dont see it as a big deal either way though as the 250 class is lucky. Everyone pits together, everyone hangs out together and everyone helps eachother. It's plain ole good time racing fun in its puriest form. I guess what I am saying is it would be nice for the amateurs but if there is even a chance that it could even remotely change either the feel of "250 racing" or stagnate the class in any way shape or form then a great big hell NO. You guys put in too much work to build and grow a community for 250 racing at CVMA rather then a class for it and that needs to be protected at all costs.

[alex.s]

with the way our class is... we might as well just award cups of vodka for the top 3 amatuers after the race ourselves. "good job kid, now lets drink you into the dirt so i can beat you tomorrow"

[Havok]

Originally Posted by alex.s

with the way our class is... we might as well just award cups of vodka for the top 3 amatuers after the race ourselves. "good job kid, now lets drink you into the dirt so i can beat you tomorrow"

Wont work, we would sandbag the race just so tiff would be a top 3 just so we could enjoy drunken Tiffani shenanigans because let's face it there is nothing funnier then a drunken tiff.

[tooblekain]

I say keep it together. I need to size up my competition when I get back.

Then again, this is coming from one that is tired of the crash fest and primordial soup of various levels of talent that is Amateur Middleweights. Its like the "B" Group of Racing...which to me just spells disaster. I am kinda glad I am getting out of that class,

[Nemesis]

I've emailed Dustin to arrange something for the top 3 Amateurs at the end of the season (banquet). Waiting on Dustin to reply back. I'll keep you posted.

[Havok]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

I've emailed Dustin to arrange something for the top 3 Amateurs at the end of the season (banquet). Waiting on Dustin to reply back. I'll keep you posted.

That would be cool as hell.

[Rexbo]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

I've emailed Dustin to arrange something for the top 3 Amateurs at the end of the season (banquet). Waiting on Dustin to reply back. I'll keep you posted.

You gotta exempt yourself Mr Sandbagger

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by Rexbo

You gotta exempt yourself Mr Sandbagger

Damn you for catching that!!!

You are my Nemesis!!!

[Shawn3210]

yeah you better exempt yourself Jonathan lol, amateur my ass haha. I like keeping the expert and amateur together, it's nice trying to keep up with the super fast guys....and our grid size is getting huge lol. BUT it would be cool to have the amateurs be rewarded lol.

[Jiggyfly]

I don't race with CVMA, & likely, never will.....since I live on the opposite side of the country!
Just a reminder.....it's always great to talk about lap times, & podium finishers.....expert or novice.....but there is literally an entire grid behind you that likely races weekend in, & weekend out, with little to no hope of being "that guy". They do it because they love racing, but don't necessarily have the drive, money, or time to be running up front. For front runners, it's about winning, points, contingency money. For them, it's about finishing, not crashing, & maybe going a little faster than they did last race. Everybody starts somewhere. Not recognizing novice racers can kind of "demotivate" them.
CCS grids us all together, & awards us finishes together.....which sucks! That means to "win" my race, I have to beat a guy that won 4 national championships last year. While its obviously not impossible, it sucks to be the first yellow plate across the line, & not get 1st place points, plaques, or contingency money.

Grid them together, & point them seperately would be my vote.
There's always the argument that the different levels can interfere with the
on track racing....but in the end, that's racing!!!!

Just throwing in my $.02

Great topic, btw

[dino74]

Good write up Nem!

As a first year racing novice, I'm for not changing the current setup. I don't want to take the risk of killing the class just so I can get some trophies especially when it happened at other racing orgs. It would be nice to get contingency for 1-5 instead of 1-3.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by dino74

Good write up Nem!

As a first year racing novice, I'm for not changing the current setup. I don't want to take the risk of killing the class just so I can get some trophies especially when it happened at other racing orgs. It would be nice to get contingency for 1-5 instead of 1-3.

That would be cool but CVMA would have to do that for every class which costs more money.

Dustin hasn't replied back. It's still too soon...besides we have 7-8 months till the banquet.

[bdavison]

This is the issue that every racing group runs into at some point an time. What happens is you start having some racers that have the money to spend on performance racing, and when newcomers start racing they have little to no chance of competing with the old "pros".

The old pros, want to keep upgrading their bikes, and running faster and faster.
The newcomers get frustrated because they can't afford all the goodies, practice track time, and they get real tired of losing every race because they can't afford the hot stuff.

So the group runs into the age old problem...How do we keep newcomers coming to race, while still giving the old "pros" the racing they enjoy.

Inevitably every single competition group out there eventually chooses to split things up into amateur/pro, or some other kind of division to address the issue.

As to whether its time or not for CVMA.....if you are asking the question.....its probably past time to address it. Just my 2 cents.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by bdavison

This is the issue that every racing group runs into at some point an time. What happens is you start having some racers that have the money to spend on performance racing, and when newcomers start racing they have little to no chance of competing with the old "pros".

The old pros, want to keep upgrading their bikes, and running faster and faster.
The newcomers get frustrated because they can't afford all the goodies, practice track time, and they get real tired of losing every race because they can't afford the hot stuff.

So the group runs into the age old problem...How do we keep newcomers coming to race, while still giving the old "pros" the racing they enjoy.

Inevitably every single competition group out there eventually chooses to split things up into amateur/pro, or some other kind of division to address the issue.

As to whether its time or not for CVMA.....if you are asking the question.....its probably past time to address it. Just my 2 cents.

We're not talking about the restriction of performance parts or what not...that's a whole different issue. But we have addressed it. The 250 Supersport class was built to limit costs and performance upgrades. The Ultra Lightweight Shootout is (correct me if I'm wrong guys) built with Formula enhancements in mind. <--I'm not entirely sure about that rule.

But the 250 class is all about skills not so much about performance parts. Ted Rich and Bryan (Sierrahotel) and other 250 racers have proven this. Ted Rich did a 2:09 on a stock bike (tires & slip-on exhaust upgrades). That's 2 seconds (now 3 seconds) from the lap record. Bryan, lacking suspension enhancements, pulled a 2:11 on his first time racing the bike. Those are impressive numbers. In addition, you have guys on fully modded bikes that aren't even close to those numbers.

What I like about CVMA is that they listen to their riders, and they try their best to cater to our concerns. If the 250 class is showing a grid size of 30+...yeah, we may want to consider splitting up the group.

Us faster guys are always out to help new comers become faster. We sacrifice our practice sessions just to give amateurs/new comers a tow.

I do understand what you're saying though which is why I'm proposing an awards for the top amateurs at the end of the season. Just throwing ideas out there but top Amateur finishers MAY receive the following:

TROPHY
TIRE CONTINGENCY
CASH PURSE
AFTERMARKET PARTS
MISC (i.e. OAKLEY EYEWEAR, GEAR, ETC.)

That's a whole lot than what us front runners are receiving at the banquet: Tea cups.

[dino74]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

The Ultra Lightweight Shootout is (correct me if I'm wrong guys) built with Formula enhancements in mind.

Originally Posted by CVMA Rule Book

UltraLightweight Shootout (6 laps) – 250cc SuperSport machines. Experts and Amateur riders.

ULW Shootout seems to be just another 250 SS

[Trailerboy531]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

We're not talking about the restriction of performance parts or what not...that's a whole different issue. But we have addressed it. The 250 Supersport class was built to limit costs and performance upgrades. The Ultra Lightweight Shootout is (correct me if I'm wrong guys) built with Formula enhancements in mind. <--I'm not entirely sure about that rule.

But the 250 class is all about skills not so much about performance parts. Ted Rich and Bryan (Sierrahotel) and other 250 racers have proven this. Ted Rich did a 2:09 on a stock bike (tires & slip-on exhaust upgrades). That's 2 seconds (now 3 seconds) from the lap record. Bryan, lacking suspension enhancements, pulled a 2:11 on his first time racing the bike. Those are impressive numbers. In addition, you have guys on fully modded bikes that aren't even close to those numbers.

What I like about CVMA is that they listen to their riders, and they try their best to cater to our concerns. If the 250 class is showing a grid size of 30+...yeah, we may want to consider splitting up the group.

Us faster guys are always out to help new comers become faster. We sacrifice our practice sessions just to give amateurs/new comers a tow.

I do understand what you're saying though which is why I'm proposing an awards for the top amateurs at the end of the season. Just throwing ideas out there but top Amateur finishers MAY receive the following:

TROPHY
TIRE CONTINGENCY
CASH PURSE
AFTERMARKET PARTS
MISC (i.e. OAKLEY EYEWEAR, GEAR, ETC.)

That's a whole lot than what us front runners are receiving at the banquet: Tea cups.

WOAH WOAH WOAH




....you guys get tea cups!??!?!

[Rexbo]

Originally Posted by dino74

ULW Shootout seems to be just another 250 SS

it is for now... until someone rolls in on a moriwaki 4-stroke or a F450 thumper.

But in reality, in the interest of making this the most entry level friendly class, I do think there should be rewards for amateurs while still letting them race with the experts. Best compromise I can see is extending the contingency to 5 places (which in lots of cases comes with larger grid sizes). Even if CVMA won't, I still think the experts should have some informal rewards for the amateurs at the end of the year, since we all know each other anyway.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by Rexbo

it is for now... until someone rolls in on a moriwaki 4-stroke or a F450 thumper.

But in reality, in the interest of making this the most entry level friendly class, I do think there should be rewards for amateurs while still letting them race with the experts. Best compromise I can see is extending the contingency to 5 places (which in lots of cases comes with larger grid sizes). Even if CVMA won't, I still think the experts should have some informal rewards for the amateurs at the end of the year, since we all know each other anyway.

Yup, if the race org won't take the initiative we will (informally).

[alex.s]

lets all chip in 20$ for season end amature prizes?

[Shawn3210]

Group hug for top amateur? Followed by a performance of Tiffani putting her legs behind her head?

[Havok]

Originally Posted by Rexbo

it is for now... until someone rolls in on a moriwaki 4-stroke or a F450 thumper.

But in reality, in the interest of making this the most entry level friendly class, I do think there should be rewards for amateurs while still letting them race with the experts. Best compromise I can see is extending the contingency to 5 places (which in lots of cases comes with larger grid sizes). Even if CVMA won't, I still think the experts should have some informal rewards for the amateurs at the end of the year, since we all know each other anyway.

I can honestly say of come September if I can not line up with the front runners of the class I will be bummed. Sure they will clean my clock on the track, he'll right now every on on the grid will but so what, it shows me I have to work harder, learn more and push myself more. I have no delusions of making money and while a trophy on the mantel would be nice, the drive for me is the racing, it's being out there on the track battling, sitting around afterwards laughing and talking and bullshitting about it all. If 250 racing at CVMA looses that aspect of it which is something I don't see happening in another class there it would truly suck.

I very well may be the minority in that point of view though but that is how I look at it. I all ready have offers of practice tows and have gotten lots of tips all ready from the top guys in the class. It just seems this class is a bit diffrent at CVMA then the others and as nem is trying to do here view it as such.

[alex.s]

i just want someone to stuff in a corner.

com'ere, pen!

[Havok]

Originally Posted by alex.s

lets all chip in 20$ for season end amature prizes?

In

[Rexbo]

Originally Posted by Havok

In

ever gonna pick up your stuff from my house?

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Rexbo

ever gonna pick up your stuff from my house?

is that code?

[Havok]

Originally Posted by Rexbo

ever gonna pick up your stuff from my house?

Yes sir, i do appologize it has been bad for me time wise. Ill pm you and set it up

[Havok]

Originally Posted by alex.s

is that code?

Yea, you have been replaced stud, sorry, it just wasn't working for me anymore

[Dmented]

Originally Posted by bdavison

So the group runs into the age old problem...How do we keep newcomers coming to race, while still giving the old "pros" the racing they enjoy.

Inevitably every single competition group out there eventually chooses to split things up into amateur/pro, or some other kind of division to address the issue.

As to whether its time or not for CVMA.....if you are asking the question.....its probably past time to address it. Just my 2 cents.

[Rexbo]

Originally Posted by Dmented

[Dmented]

hahah... touche'!
well played sir.

but seriously, keep it all in the same gang!

[Rexbo]

I can kill this one right here. Femmewalla exists because Aimee wants it to, and its part of the deal for why CVMA exists. You might not like it, some women might not like it, but she wants it to be there and its her baby. Either way, doesn't really have much to do with this thread...

[dino74]

Originally Posted by Rexbo

Either way, doesn't really have much to do with this thread...

because the picture below totally settled the expert/amateur debate...

Originally Posted by Rexbo

[alex.s]

facebook is insane. i give up.

[Dmented]

Originally Posted by alex.s

facebook is insane. i give up.

Is this you?

listen man...