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Old July 22nd, 2017, 05:49 PM   #1
KikRox
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Which fuel does the 250 like best?

So fun topic: Fuel.

Have any of you found a certain brand of fuel or a certain percentage that seems to burn best in your bike? I have tested all sorts of suppliers, I am from canada so petrocan, esso, shell, husky, amco, ultramar. So far I find the shell v-power fuel to be my safest bet, I've had some hard times with the petrocan ultra 94 not great fuel. What are your thoughts folks?
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Old July 22nd, 2017, 06:20 PM   #2
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I haven't really noticed any difference in brands, but mine likes regular and ethanol free, though often I can only find ethanol free in premium. Unfortunately, the closest station to me (a Chevron) with ethanol free gas is double the price of the normal ethanol junk. I still get it there from time to time though.
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Old July 22nd, 2017, 06:37 PM   #3
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I haven't noticed any differences. I've used any and every kind of gas at about 20 different stations between home and Thunderhill the past 6-months. Haven't noticed any difference in driveability or power. I do plan on doing the igntion-module upgrade to the pre-gen units to get some additional ignition-advance. At that point, I plan on running 91-octane.
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 11:20 AM   #4
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Non-ethanol 87 octane will provide the most power and best economy in the Ninja.

That's Cenex in my area.
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 11:22 AM   #5
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Ethanol Free, Low Octane. For me that means going to The Grange ( https://grangesupply.com/fuel/ )
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 11:38 AM   #6
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Ordinary 87 octane (R+M)/2 pump regular works fine in my 250. 10% ethanol seems to be no problem, but I don't let it sit in the carbs for more than a couple weeks at a time, a month at the most. Brand doesn't matter, but I would tend toward Chevron or Texaco if all other things were equal, because of their Techron content.
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 05:42 PM   #7
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beauty, i was reading elsewhere 87 / ethenol free was a good choice, i now have to figure out where i can get it. thanks again.

After some reading here is what i found for ethenol free suppliers in ontario canada. No ethenol free 87 around.

Ethenol free premium
Shell V-Power 91;
Costco 91;
Canadian Tire 91;
Esso 91;
Ultramar 91.

With ethenol "premium"
Petro-can 91 and 94
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 06:55 PM   #8
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Ethanol Free, Low Octane. For me that means going to The Grange ( https://grangesupply.com/fuel/ )
Is there anything wrong with ethanol free, high octane besides the higher price? There's only one gas station around here that has ethanol free, but it's 91.
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 07:21 PM   #9
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The higher price is enough to dissuade me. I'm not sure why the fear of ethanol, unless you plan to leave the bike parked for long periods.
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 07:47 PM   #10
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The higher price is enough to dissuade me. I'm not sure why the fear of ethanol, unless you plan to leave the bike parked for long periods.
I don't really care about the price. I run standard E10 (10% ethanol) in my newer F.I. cars with plastic gas tanks, but never in the cycles or small engines.

Ethanol makes a carbed engine run lean, which can cause problems as most engines are lean already.

It contains and holds water. It goes bad quicker. It promotes rust in a steel tank and corrosion in aluminum. It will attack gaskets and seals in older engines that are not designed to be exposed to it.

It does nothing good.

What's not to like?
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 08:28 PM   #11
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I know all the negatives. I've just never had a problem if the vehicle doesn't sit for long periods.
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 08:37 PM   #12
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Is there anything wrong with ethanol free, high octane besides the higher price? There's only one gas station around here that has ethanol free, but it's 91.
Higher Octane means it's more resistant to detonation from pressure; so if you go higher you may get a less complete ignition of the gas and it can actually lower your mileage, since the engine is designed for gas that ignites relatively easily.
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 08:45 PM   #13
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Well, resistant to detonation from pressure doesn't equate to harder to ignite with a spark.
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 09:35 PM   #14
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Higher Octane means it's more resistant to detonation from pressure; so if you go higher you may get a less complete ignition of the gas and it can actually lower your mileage, since the engine is designed for gas that ignites relatively easily.
No. Flame-front propagation speed is identical across all octane levels. The higher branch-chain and aromatic content of higher octane fuels just resist formation of radical alkyl groups better. Those radicals are sensitive and can spontaneously ignite ahead of flame front. Note at this point, ignition and combustion is well underway. It just hasn't completed yet when detonation event occurs.

Mileage is purely based upon number of hydrocarbons per gallon, regardless of octane level. Ethanol is an easy octane-booster @ 114-octane. It is used to cut lower-octane gas. However, due to its onboard oxygen, which is HUGE, this displaces hydrocarbons per gallon, leading to lower mileage.
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 09:44 PM   #15
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Also, don't ever use Avgas 100LL. By design, it is engineered to be low-density and light. Much fewer hydrocarbons per gallon for horrible mileage. You'll end up running lean, too hot, and melt holes into your pistons!!
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 11:12 PM   #16
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Caltex Vortex 98 is my pick of the litter, cleaners, rust inhibitors and some other magic stuff.

I use it in the car and bike.

Car is boosted WRX STI and needs it, bike gets it because, well, just because...

I can justify the extra couple of dollars for the bike as I believe fuel quality and octane rating is more important than saving a dollar.
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Old July 23rd, 2017, 11:18 PM   #17
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It contains and holds water. It goes bad quicker. It promotes rust in a steel tank and corrosion in aluminum.
And there-in lay my repeated issue. I kept gassing up with ultra assuming petrocan was serving me proper ethenol free premium like every other respectable establishment but it turns out I was wrong. I have had all sorts of carb / fuel system issues this year i was.cursing them for having water in the gas which i have to dump over and over. funny part is right across the road from that station is an ultramar with good gas. hee-haw-hee-haw.
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Old July 24th, 2017, 03:03 AM   #18
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So fun topic: Fuel.

Have any of you found a certain brand of fuel or a certain percentage that seems to burn best in your bike? I have tested all sorts of suppliers, I am from canada so petrocan, esso, shell, husky, amco, ultramar. So far I find the shell v-power fuel to be my safest bet, I've had some hard times with the petrocan ultra 94 not great fuel. What are your thoughts folks?
I have no idea, I only run Mobil premium.

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Old July 24th, 2017, 03:08 AM   #19
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The higher price is enough to dissuade me. I'm not sure why the fear of ethanol, unless you plan to leave the bike parked for long periods.
At 70 miles/gallon you're worried about the price? That's like people tell me that $10.50/quart for engine oil is too expensive. For 1.5 quarts of oil? Hell, sell your bike and really start saving money.

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Old July 24th, 2017, 04:53 AM   #20
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It makes no difference what you run if you run often. The issues come when you leave stuff standing for weeks or months. Fresh fuel is what gives the best performance. ALL Japanese bike engines are designed to run on standard unleaded, in the USA that's 87MON & in Europe 95RON (they are basically the same thing) but the bikes are designed to run on the poorest grade unleaded you might get in Africa or elsewhere. So using premium does nothing but waste cash. No need for it unless your dynamic compression ratio is over 12/1. The 250 only has around 10.5/1 dynamic ratio, 11/1 at best.

ethanol is a bad idea in fuel period, unless the engine/fuel system was designed to run with it. All new machines since 2013 will be, anything older is unlikely.
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Old July 24th, 2017, 05:36 AM   #21
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It makes no difference what you run if you run often. The issues come when you leave stuff standing for weeks or months. Fresh fuel is what gives the best performance. ALL Japanese bike engines are designed to run on standard unleaded, in the USA that's 87MON & in Europe 95RON (they are basically the same thing) but the bikes are designed to run on the poorest grade unleaded you might get in Africa or elsewhere. So using premium does nothing but waste cash. No need for it unless your dynamic compression ratio is over 12/1. The 250 only has around 10.5/1 dynamic ratio, 11/1 at best.

ethanol is a bad idea in fuel period, unless the engine/fuel system was designed to run with it. All new machines since 2013 will be, anything older is unlikely.
I've been waiting for you Mate. No advantage to premium eh. I can't speak for the fuel you get across the pond. Short story. A friend of mine used to drive 300 miles to visit me. I kept talking-up premium fuel. She was doubtful but one day she filled-up with Mobil premium. When she arrived at my place she was amazed. When she drove on regular fuel her tank she arrived with her fuel gauge on E. With premium she arrived with 1/4 of a tank remaining. What was the differecnce - a tail wind?

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Old July 24th, 2017, 05:58 AM   #22
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Many things can make a difference. Simply thinking about economy can alter your riding without you noticing. A tailwind can make a huge difference on a bike. So can type pressures, time of day as in how much traffic. Even temperature, because carbs measure fuel by volume, cold or hot fuel & air can produce different power levels. Combine all of the above & you will see why manufacturers use machines to work this out, no variation.

As always YMMV !

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Old July 24th, 2017, 06:05 AM   #23
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No. Flame-front propagation speed is identical across all octane levels. The higher branch-chain and aromatic content of higher octane fuels just resist formation of radical alkyl groups better. Those radicals are sensitive and can spontaneously ignite ahead of flame front. Note at this point, ignition and combustion is well underway. It just hasn't completed yet when detonation event occurs.

Mileage is purely based upon number of hydrocarbons per gallon, regardless of octane level. Ethanol is an easy octane-booster @ 114-octane. It is used to cut lower-octane gas. However, due to its onboard oxygen, which is HUGE, this displaces hydrocarbons per gallon, leading to lower mileage.
Interesting, goes against what I was taught; but that was years ago and not the most formal setting. The mileage sub-point is simply one of efficiency -- if the gas is going off too early or too late then the energy is there, yes, but you'll get less mileage since it's not driving the engine's piston as efficiently as it could.
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Old July 24th, 2017, 06:07 AM   #24
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I know all the negatives. I've just never had a problem if the vehicle doesn't sit for long periods.
I don't think that's any guarantee that you won't have problems.

With the nice older bikes you have, I wouldn't mess with ethanol in the gas. By the time you experience a problem, things may be a real mess.
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Old July 24th, 2017, 06:38 AM   #25
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At 70 miles/gallon you're worried about the price? That's like people tell me that $10.50/quart for engine oil is too expensive. For 1.5 quarts of oil? Hell, sell your bike and really start saving money.Bill
Around here there are very few stations that sell no-alcohol gasoline. The ones that do charge through the nose for it. Like if regular is $2.50/gallon, the no alcohol stuff will be $3.99/gallon. Since as I said, I have not had any problems with regular 10% alcohol gasoline, I don't see any reason to go out of my way or pay a lot more to get the non-alcohol version. If it were 10% more expensive and available at local stations, I'd probably buy it.
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Old July 24th, 2017, 06:44 AM   #26
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IWith premium she arrived with 1/4 of a tank remaining. What was the differecnce - a tail wind?
Without knowing what car it was, it's just a guess, but some car engines have knock sensors, and will advance the timing until the computer hears the first hints of detonation. In this case, premium fuel could result in the ignition timing getting advanced quite a bit more than when using lower octane fuel.

Any yes, in a 300 mile trip, a 10 mph tail wind can make a significant difference in fuel economy.
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Old July 24th, 2017, 06:49 AM   #27
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I don't think that's any guarantee that you won't have problems.

With the nice older bikes you have, I wouldn't mess with ethanol in the gas. By the time you experience a problem, things may be a real mess.
I didn't say anything about a guarantee. I said I have not had problems with 10% alcohol gasoline as long as the bikes don't sit for long periods. With all the years of this experience, I'm not going to fret about 10% ethanol.
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Old July 24th, 2017, 06:54 AM   #28
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Without knowing what car it was, it's just a guess, but some car engines have knock sensors, and will advance the timing until the computer hears the first hints of detonation. In this case, premium fuel could result in the ignition timing getting advanced quite a bit more than when using lower octane fuel.

Any yes, in a 300 mile trip, a 10 mph tail wind can make a significant difference in fuel economy.
Yeah maybe. We do have predominantly West winds here and she was traveling East. So without the tailwind acting on her Chevy Nova she might have only had 1/8 of a tank of fuel left rather than her gas gauge registering E.

I know this was not a scientifically controlled test.

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Old July 24th, 2017, 07:33 AM   #29
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Interesting, goes against what I was taught; but that was years ago and not the most formal setting. The mileage sub-point is simply one of efficiency -- if the gas is going off too early or too late then the energy is there, yes, but you'll get less mileage since it's not driving the engine's piston as efficiently as it could.
You're talking about tuning a car for max-power under WOT here. Not about differences in octane or mileage. Optimum spark-timing does make a difference ... for maximum power production under WOT. You want entire mixture fully combusted around 15-ATDC. Any sooner and you're just compressing rods. Any later and mixture is still expanding at bottom of stroke and trying to compress rods on their way back up.

However, under non-WOT operation, such as cruising for mileage, throttle is mostly closed and you've got a rarified mixture in the chambers. It's very thin, even at top of compression stroke. It's extremely easy to ignite this mixture and ignition is not an issue. Efficiency is also maximized with O2-sensor feedback and 14.7:1 AFR. It requires only about 12-15hp to push your car down the road at 65mph. Doesn't matter what octane you use, it's same power required because aero-drag is the same.

I get highest MPG with non-oxygenated (non-ethanol) fuels. Lose 10% MPG with E10. Costco must cut their gas with extra ethanol because I get -15% MPG on their gas. Power-output same in all cases.



REFERENCES
The Chemistry of Hydrocarbon Fuels - Harold H. Schobert_ -_ Butterworth-Heinemann Ltd.
Automotive Fuels Reference Book - Keith Owen, Trevor Coley - SAE#R151
Mixture Formation in Spark-Ignition Engines - H.P. Lenz - Springer-Verlag
Fuel Injection - Jeff Hartman - Motorbooks International
Lean Combustion in Spark-Ignited Internal Combustion Engines - Germane, Wood, Hess - SAE#831694
An Introduction to Thermal Fluid Engineering - Z. Warhaft - Cambridge University Press

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Old July 24th, 2017, 11:27 AM   #30
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I cruise at about 10 000 rpm around 120kph (highway) i never drive my bike for "milage". stock gearing, but it seems from this conversation (and from other sources) the benefit of running premium with no ethenol is the "no ethenol" lol i dont want it in my bike its causes me all sorts of greif from gummy carbs to watery fuel (from the pump!) neither of those things make me smile. however in my instance the reason for using premium is that apparrently non ethenol in my locale is only available in 91 (from what i read).

when i use petrocans 10% ethenol blend, if i let the gas settle in my tank my carbs suck the water from the tank and it doesnt like to go through the bowls. it just *seems* like i am getting two things i dont want from a pump, one being corn fuel and two being water. I just want some bloody gasoline lol... its not that much to ask for. Tired of pulling pannels, draining carbs, cleaning carbs, and dumping gasoline.

id rather deal with the miniscule timing issue thats virtually unnoticable to me from running higher octane then fight with the fuel system. higher octane may take more to burn but water doesnt burn at all.
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Old July 24th, 2017, 11:47 AM   #31
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I just want some bloody gasoline lol... its not that much to ask for.
Corn farmers are powerful lobby in U.S.... well, middle-man processors that buy from farmers and make HFCS are... Don't mess with them. Or you'll have senior-level VPs getting into "accidents" or falling out of skyscrapers.
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Old July 24th, 2017, 11:50 AM   #32
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I cruise at about 10 000 rpm around 120kph (highway) i never drive my bike for "milage". stock gearing, but it seems from this conversation (and from other sources) the benefit of running premium with no ethenol is the "no ethenol" lol i dont want it in my bike its causes me all sorts of greif from gummy carbs to watery fuel (from the pump!) neither of those things make me smile. however in my instance the reason for using premium is that apparrently non ethenol in my locale is only available in 91 (from what i read).

when i use petrocans 10% ethenol blend, if i let the gas settle in my tank my carbs suck the water from the tank and it doesnt like to go through the bowls. it just *seems* like i am getting two things i dont want from a pump, one being corn fuel and two being water. I just want some bloody gasoline lol... its not that much to ask for. Tired of pulling pannels, draining carbs, cleaning carbs, and dumping gasoline.

id rather deal with the miniscule timing issue thats virtually unnoticable to me from running higher octane then fight with the fuel system. higher octane may take more to burn but water doesnt burn at all.
Ah, for the good old days when you drank the corn fuel and bathed in the water. Hey, I wonder if premium fuel on this side of the pond has reduced alcohol content? I'm gonna E-mail Mobil and see if I can find out.

Bill
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Old July 24th, 2017, 11:57 AM   #33
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Ah, for the good old days when you drank the corn fuel and bathed in the water. Hey, I wonder if premium fuel on this side of the pond has reduced alcohol content? I'm gonna E-mail Mobil and see if I can find out.

Bill
In California you can't even get non-ethanoled fuels. It's all minimum of E10, a little higher in winter. Just have to incorporate dealing with it in all systems. I'm getting darn good results with E85 on boosted cars.
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Old July 24th, 2017, 12:35 PM   #34
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In California you can't even get non-ethanoled fuels. It's all minimum of E10, a little higher in winter. Just have to incorporate dealing with it in all systems. I'm getting darn good results with E85 on boosted cars.
Just F.Y.I, propaganda from Exxon Mobil;


http://synergy.exxon.com/

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Old July 24th, 2017, 12:38 PM   #35
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Just F.Y.I, propaganda from Exxon Mobil;


http://synergy.exxon.com/

https://www.exxon.com/en/unleaded-gasoline

I only run Mobil Premium.



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Old July 24th, 2017, 12:43 PM   #36
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lol exactly ramjet! corn alcohol is for drinking, water is for bathing. all this ethenol trip is about is selling unused crap farmers have laying around to boost profits for fuel manufacturers. it doesnt *do* anything good for non-flex fuel vehicles. its basically just 10% cut. its like going to mc donnalds and getting 10% snouts and entrails in your nuggets because they couldn't get rid of it elsewhere and it allows mc squirts to sell more nuggets. we're getting 10% ****ed at the pump. or 1 dollar out of 10 goes to nothing. or 10% of my tank is filled with CRAP. which is my real issue.
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Old July 24th, 2017, 12:45 PM   #37
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Where on chicken are nuggets?
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Old July 24th, 2017, 12:46 PM   #38
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Where on chicken are nuggets?
the feet area.
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Old July 24th, 2017, 01:03 PM   #39
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Also, don't ever use Avgas 100LL. By design, it is engineered to be low-density and light. Much fewer hydrocarbons per gallon for horrible mileage. You'll end up running lean, too hot, and melt holes into your pistons!!
Avgas has only slightly less energy per gallon than mogas, probably not going to make a significant difference.

The main problem with using 100LL is that it has lead in it, and quite a lot of lead, despite the name "low-lead".

You'll see other performance issues with it because it's formulated for large displacement, long stroke, low RPM engines that run at high altitude. Pretty much the exact opposite of the Ninja's engine. It also has additives that will damage the rubber gas lines in your engine.

Engine issues aside, it's illegal for street use (anything other than airplanes actually), and usually $5+ per gallon.
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Old July 24th, 2017, 01:19 PM   #40
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I guess it comes down to your definition of "slightly". Avgas 100LL has even less energy-content per gallon than E10.

125,000 Btu/gal = 87 octane gasoline
121,000Btu/gal = E-10 gasoline
120,200 Btu/gal = Avgas 100LL

For 100-octane gas, it's still cheaper than VP T4 @ $12/gal or MRX02 @ $25/gal.
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