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Old July 1st, 2021, 09:35 PM   #1
marshallsmith27
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Carb woes

To start I pulled this bike out from under the tarp it's been under for the last 8 years or so put a jump box on the battery leads and sprayed some ether and it turned over instantly. I was excited so I pulled the carbs off and spent half the day getting them absolutely spotless. I then ordered all new o-rings and gaskets. Someone almost hit me 8 years ago and I had no choice but to ride down into a deep holler and it really uglied up the fairings and popped the rear tire. The bike never ran very well before so I just put it up. It was a hit and miss if it would ever start before the wreck anyway.

So I have currently:

•110 Mains (Genuine Keihin Jets) 115 was too rich
•38 idle (Stock) also tried genuine 42 idle jets but that made no difference
•All 5 vacuum nipples on the carbs capped
•Carb bodies in sync
•Stock needles but have shimmed to 1mm, 2mm, 3mm trying to even the idle
•2 Brand new float valves
•Floats set to 17mm
•Tried 2 to 5 turns on the AF screw
•Removed the enricher/tried it with the enricher. ran worse with the enricher and it is in good condition
•Running it currently off of an auxiliary fuel bottle. shouldn't make a difference since the vacuum ports are capped with actual vacuum caps
•It's firing on both cylinders

It revs fine but its the return to idle and the actual consistent idle that is SO bad.


It starts up and runs but surges soon as you give it gas and then takes forever to return to idle which it rarely returns to a nice consistent idle. usually returns to around 500 rpm and nearly dies.

The intake boots are not cracked. I am running velocity stacks on it right now so thats one of the reasons I tried the 115 jets was to see if I could match all the extra air coming in.


The only other things I can think of is that it doesn't like running off of the jump box which it seems to not mind the jump box, theres something wrong with the igniter which I doubt or the carbs being tuned more sporty like this doesn't work with the stock exhaust?

The surging of the rpms seems like a lean thing (but how could it be lean with 110/42 jets? or a vacuum leak. I sprayed starter fluid all over the carbs and intake boots and nothing happened so I don't think it's that.

Help me out here please!

What am I missing here?
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Old July 2nd, 2021, 05:34 AM   #2
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Some thoughts:

* This isn't an ignition problem.
* Needles control fuel at midrange, so shimming them to help idle won't work.
* Main jets control fuel only at the high end of throttle openings, so won't affect surging at midrage.
* Velocity stacks will probably mess things up, and don't flow better than the stock intake system.
* These carbs are difficult to get truly clean, and if you miss a tiny passage you didn't see, they won't run right.

But @ducatiman is the one to help here. It's his business to know all about these 250 carburetors.
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Old July 2nd, 2021, 05:55 AM   #3
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You posted "The bike never ran very well before"

And since, you're (over)compensating, searching for quick fixes (jetting, removing airbox) You've done way too much at once....hence my "variables" comment in your other thread.

I'd suggest a restart....returning *everything* to factory stock, airbox and jetting included. A known starting point, get it running/idling correctly in that condition first.
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Old July 2nd, 2021, 06:18 AM   #4
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I would start by getting a good battery and not using a "jump box". That alone can cause problems.

Are the slides rising and falling smoothly? Are the diaphragms good, without any buckling or rips?

Are you certain the idle mixture passages are clear, and the screws have good o-rings and springs/washers positioned correctly?

Collars/Needle Jets in-place?

You may still be too rich with 110 Mains.
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Old July 2nd, 2021, 12:55 PM   #5
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Sorry for the lack of info. The stock airbox had a huge hole in it. I never said that. The jump box was just to test it. I am running an actual battery.

I have reset everything as best as I could without the airbox twice. I have a whole bunch of jets used and new of the same values and I have tried them all.

The bike runs fine when giving it throttle and goes all the way to redline without stumbling. with the UNI filters I have on it now I am at 115 mains and it runs fine in the upper range.

I just took the intake boots off again and gave them a really good cleaning and they are still soft and not cracked.

I went back to the 38 idle jets because it ran a little better with them. I have blown through all the passages at least 20 times. the air compressor I am using is a 150 psi compressor so I WOULD think it would clear the passages out.

Sometimes it will idle fine for a few seconds and then either start to slightly surge on its own but most of the time it wants to idle VERY low but not die. sometimes it wont die but idle extremely low.

This sounds more like a vacuum problem, right?
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Old July 2nd, 2021, 12:58 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkv45 View Post
I would start by getting a good battery and not using a "jump box". That alone can cause problems.

Are the slides rising and falling smoothly? Are the diaphragms good, without any buckling or rips?

Are you certain the idle mixture passages are clear, and the screws have good o-rings and springs/washers positioned correctly?

Collars/Needle Jets in-place?

You may still be too rich with 110 Mains.
with 110 it was white smoke and 120 it wouldn't rev and was spitting. 115 was the spot where it was a nice consistent rev with no plug fouling. if I let it idle for long enough it will make the spark plugs black.

The slides do rise smoothly. they "bounce" a little at idle like move up and down really quickly ever so slightly. not sure if thats normal. the diaphragms are in good condition

and yes the collar needs are the right way around. I learned that problem working on my other bike. having those the wrong way around makes the bike run crazy
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Old July 2nd, 2021, 01:16 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marshallsmith27 View Post
Sometimes it will idle fine for a few seconds and then either start to slightly surge on its own but most of the time it wants to idle VERY low but not die. sometimes it wont die but idle extremely low.

This sounds more like a vacuum problem, right?
It could be, but those symptoms also point to valves out of adjustment and not fully closing when cold.
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Old July 2nd, 2021, 01:22 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marshallsmith27 View Post
with 110 it was white smoke and 120 it wouldn't rev and was spitting. 115 was the spot where it was a nice consistent rev with no plug fouling. if I let it idle for long enough it will make the spark plugs black.

The slides do rise smoothly. they "bounce" a little at idle like move up and down really quickly ever so slightly. not sure if thats normal. the diaphragms are in good condition

and yes the collar needs are the right way around. I learned that problem working on my other bike. having those the wrong way around makes the bike run crazy
The Main Jet should not affect the mixture at idle that much to make the plugs black. I would look closer at the Enrichener.

Still think you could go to a 108s. 105 is stock - and it is rich. 108 worked for us with pods and a leaky stock exhaust. Not having an airbox can mess with fuelling also.

How about the battery?

If you are testing it by revving in neutral in the garage, you will most likely get different results from riding (under load).

If you had a vacuum leak, or were overly lean, your RPMs would be high and hanging and not down low.

I think you are too rich, for whatever reason.
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Old July 2nd, 2021, 01:40 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkv45 View Post
The Main Jet should not affect the mixture at idle that much to make the plugs black. I would look closer at the Enrichener.

Still think you could go to a 108s. 105 is stock - and it is rich. 108 worked for us with pods and a leaky stock exhaust. Not having an airbox can mess with fuelling also.

How about the battery?

If you are testing it by revving in neutral in the garage, you will most likely get different results from riding (under load).

If you had a vacuum leak, or were overly lean, your RPMs would be high and hanging and not down low.

I think you are too rich, for whatever reason.

I have started it so many times I can tell you exactly what it does.

It starts very easily, revs fine but when letting off the throttle it hangs and comes down very slow and it doesn't really return to idle. Like there is no idle. it never idles. it may idle for a second or so but not very often. I have to adjust the idle screw so much that it has the throttle open a lot just to keep it from dropping idle very low. thats about 3-4k with the idle screw all the way open and it will sometimes just start to rise and surge all on its own.

The battery is a 1 week old 20 amp hour battery. I pulled it out of a harley. I'm using it because it wont die with 20ah with all the stop starts.

I don't have any 108s I will have to go to the powersports store to get some of those to test but still going lower wont help with the surging and the idle.

also the enricher was in good condition but taking it off seemed to make it run better. the little diaphragm was in condition but for some reason running without it, it runs better.

Tuning under load should be easy once I have it tuned on the stand. more than likely it will just be stepping up or down slightly
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Old July 2nd, 2021, 01:41 PM   #10
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It could be, but those symptoms also point to valves out of adjustment and not fully closing when cold.
It could be valves I have not checked them. but when cold....when the bike is warm should it still be a problem?

I will check the valve lashing.

I'm really thrown off by this. how it will start every time and run and rev but simply wont idle worth a damn. I feel like I have tried every jet variable and setting I can think of.
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Old July 2nd, 2021, 02:07 PM   #11
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It could be valves I have not checked them. but when cold....when the bike is warm should it still be a problem?
The valve clearances open as the engine warms, so at first poor starting and idling show up when the engine is cold, but it seems better when warm. Put it off too long and you cost a valve job, as a recent member here experienced.
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Old July 2nd, 2021, 02:34 PM   #12
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Update:

I might have found an actual problem.

I took some brake cleaner and sprayed it on the intake boots and 7ish out of 10 or so times the engine died. I think I must have some micro tears or cracks in the intake boots.

The few times it didnt die and the boots were completely soaked it idled. I guess it was acting like a vacuum barrier. it started raining and I had to stop.

Just thought I would add that. I will let yall know in a few. the boots look VERY good. I cant really see anything visually wrong with them but 7 or so times dying kind of points to air messing up the fuel mixture
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Old July 2nd, 2021, 03:25 PM   #13
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I guess it's the boots or the clamps. when it starts to surge I spray brake cleaner between the head and the boot left and it stops surging almost instantly. If this is what it actually is then almost 2 days of taking the carbs apart at least 30 times. I'm gonna be kinda mad... I guess I'm going to see if I can get them locally tomorrow
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Old July 2nd, 2021, 08:52 PM   #14
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Ordered some brand new intake boots and clamps. I will let yall know how it goes when they arrive
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Old July 3rd, 2021, 02:09 PM   #15
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Am I reading that you don't have an airbox? If so, you need to get an airbox and an air filter before you waste any more time trying to troubleshoot the carbs.
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Old July 8th, 2021, 03:55 PM   #16
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great news, no more random surging! I guess it was bad intake boots after all. now it will idle for maybe 20ish seconds nice and even and then start to want to die. it also doesn't really hang anymore. It still doesn't come down as fast as it should but it isn't hanging or surging. I think that must be jets? still running the stock 38 pilot and I think the 110 is still in there and 3 turns out on the AF screws. this is all how I left it before I ordered the boots. I havent had time to make any adjustments. I have only put the boots on and started it.

I have the 2 Stage Filter UNI 15ļ pod filters.

This is where I am now. Tomorrow I will probably fool around with the jets.
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Old July 11th, 2021, 08:04 PM   #17
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What do you have the needles shimmed at currently?
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Old July 12th, 2021, 06:37 AM   #18
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(SNIP)

I have the 2 Stage Filter UNI 15ļ pod filters.

This is where I am now. Tomorrow I will probably fool around with the jets.
One really common mistake (I've done it...) is to over-oil the air filter, which will make it run very poorly (rich) at all RPMs.

If you have oiled the filters, I would try to remove any oil that is visible. I've found spray air filter oil to be the easiest to control, and one light/medium coat is all that's required. Two coats is too much.
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Old July 14th, 2021, 03:46 PM   #19
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What do you have the needles shimmed at currently?
great thinking. I'm pretty sure they were still shimmed at 3mm. I will take them out and try it. I haven't messed with the bike at all lately. It's at my parents and my dad wheeled it out of his shop and it got rained on and that ruined the ignitor. the replacement came in today and I will have a go at it.

The oil filters are very lightly oiled. just whatever came on them. it said they were pre oiled and its not a lot on there.

I will take the shims out and go down a number on the main jets and return with an update.

I bought a non california ignitor. my bike was a california bike. I'm not sure if the tune is different or not but the ones on eBay were more for the california ignitors from what I saw.
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Old July 15th, 2021, 05:57 AM   #20
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great thinking. I'm pretty sure they were still shimmed at 3mm. I will take them out and try it. I haven't messed with the bike at all lately. It's at my parents and my dad wheeled it out of his shop and it got rained on and that ruined the ignitor. the replacement came in today and I will have a go at it.

The oil filters are very lightly oiled. just whatever came on them. it said they were pre oiled and its not a lot on there.

I will take the shims out and go down a number on the main jets and return with an update.

I bought a non california ignitor. my bike was a california bike. I'm not sure if the tune is different or not but the ones on eBay were more for the california ignitors from what I saw.
I would say that's too much.
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Old July 15th, 2021, 07:33 AM   #21
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I would say that's too much.
It probably is. Thatís what I have in the Triumph. after the days of trying and trying to get it to run I tried copying the shims like on my Triumph just as a last resort before I realized the intake boots were bad. I havenít had a chance to take them out yet but I am today.
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Old July 18th, 2021, 01:55 PM   #22
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Okay so I got in the ignitor like I said before and I finally received the thumbscrew AF mixture screws so I can adjust them easily.

I’ve put 108 mains and 38 stock pilots in right now with no shims and 3 turns out on the AF screws.

I put the enricher back on just as a baseline and it doesn’t want to idle right at all and hard to rev with it on.

It revs great and idles somewhat okay. definitely better than it did before but it still doesn’t like to properly return to idle. it hangs on return to idle around 4,500 rpm. it does return but it’s quicker to blip the throttle to make it return.

Before I tried to the 42 pilots from my Triumph it didn’t want to idle nicely.

I’ve got it running better than it has yet but idle still sucks.

What do y’all think I’m missing?



Also do any of y’all know what’s the difference with the three ignitors? There’s three model numbers over the years. Mine was the CA one and I bought one that isn’t the CA one, but that still leaves another one that’s not CA also.


I promise I’m not clueless. I have no idea why I can’t get this thing to run right. I guess I’m going to check the valves tomorrow.
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Old July 18th, 2021, 02:00 PM   #23
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I promise I’m not clueless. I have no idea why I can’t get this thing to run right. I guess I’m going to check the valves tomorrow.
I'm not saying I'm sure it's the valves, but if the valves are not fully closing, you'll chase carb/airleak/ignition problems forever.
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Old July 18th, 2021, 02:10 PM   #24
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It very possibly could need the valves adjusted. I think it has 4,000 miles on it. I don’t know how they would be out of spec with so few miles but I guess it’s possible. I think it’s going to be my next step. I have tried so many variables with adjustments and even a different ignitor so that only leaves the valves. everything has been replaced inside the carbs pretty much. the only thing that’s original are the floats which are still good and the diaphragms.


Also I think I am going to order some 40 idle jets. Since 42 was too much and it's possible that when I check the valves they wont be out of tolerance. not returning to idle I still think is a lean thing. and I have lots of main jet sizes but no idle jets
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Old July 19th, 2021, 10:33 PM   #25
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It very possibly could need the valves adjusted. I think it has 4,000 miles on it. I don’t know how they would be out of spec with so few miles but I guess it’s possible. I think it’s going to be my next step. I have tried so many variables with adjustments and even a different ignitor so that only leaves the valves. everything has been replaced inside the carbs pretty much. the only thing that’s original are the floats which are still good and the diaphragms.


Also I think I am going to order some 40 idle jets. Since 42 was too much and it's possible that when I check the valves they wont be out of tolerance. not returning to idle I still think is a lean thing. and I have lots of main jet sizes but no idle jets
I see you only live about 3 and half hours away. I could come down and help you adjust the valves and get the carbs dialed in one day, or you could come here, either way would be fine.

I just adjusted my valves on my ninja 250 last week and then did the carb float adjustment as well (check out my FB, I keep tons of photos and videos of the various different bikes and vehicles I work on). Btw I have found that 15 mm is a better float height for larger main jets than stock.

I've owned 5 different Ninja 250's before, and have worked on at least a dozen of them.

A video after the valve adjustment. Running good!
https://www.facebook.com/spencer.mit...69712218412432





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Old July 31st, 2021, 07:22 PM   #26
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sorry @memphisninja I have been very busy. My sister and my cousin both have their own weddings coming up in the next couple of weeks and my other bike the speedometer stopped working so I couldn't think much about the kawasaki.

Things have slowed down some now and that might be an idea. If I get the chance in the next few weeks or so I might bring the bike up there.

I'm about to look at your FB link right now.

The bike has just sat in the shop the last few weeks.

Where I am right now is I think it might be valve related because I put all of the internals from my triumph's carbs a while back including the diaphragms and that made NO difference. I even have a new igniter now and a brand new battery I picked up at walmart dated 04/21 so I cant imagine it's ignition. I just changed the oil and filter with full synthetic and I bought new intake boots.

That leaves valves or carbs. I'm starting to think it's not the carbs.

I'm about to check out your link right now
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Old July 31st, 2021, 07:26 PM   #27
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it says the content is not available when I click on your link. is it a private post?
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Old August 8th, 2021, 08:55 PM   #28
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@memphis did you ever find out what was wrong with your link? I have finally found the time to jump back into the ninja and would love to get it running.
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Old September 6th, 2021, 05:50 PM   #29
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RPM HANGS AT 2K - when hot

Hi

I have a 2004 250R with 2,100 miles that sat for a long time in a garage. It is in near mint condition.

This is what I have done to date:

- sonic cleaned carbs (all parts / jets) 3x
- wired through all ports and passages- they are clear
- New battery -
- contact cleaned all fuses
- new air filter (Universal foam/ Uni). no air gaps inside
- intake boots are near mint- no sign of cracking
- airbox boots fit snug against carb bell housing
- checked the airbox screws for tight fit
- replaced inline fuel screen ( universal exterior fuel filter now)
- cleaned tank fuel cock fuel filter
- cleaned fuel cock
- reamed tank air venting tube (checked for spider webs )
- reset valves (they needed it)
- new gas
- zip tied all vacuum hoses- (near mint condition)
- All the jetting is stock
- placed (1) .20 mm shim to accommodate California ethanol gas in the needle
- Check CV diaphragms for tears or flaws- they are all ok
- New coolant
- New thermostat (original was sticking closed)
- I checked the float bowl assemble to insure it was releasing completely without hesitation- it moves as it should
- I cleaned the float needle and seat contact points to insure they were not varnished or hanging up

The bike needs choke to start. After it runs for a moment is revs to about 4k rpm. I set the choke to run about 2,000 rpm. then drive off slowly. I presume this is normal for this bike.


Bike runs nice with some grunt after warm up and runs about in the middle of the temp range. At stop signs the temp gauge moves close to the hot zone.

Moving away from stop the temp gauge moves to the middle.

The obvious issue is that after the bike gets hot. When I drop the throttle, it comes comes down correctly, then hangs up momentarily at 2k RPM, then settles into idle at 1200 RPM (where I set it). That is exactly what the scenario is.

I moved the handle bars side to side to see if the throttle cables were hanging up the butterfly. No they are not. I checked to see if the butterfly was closing completely when the throttle is dropped. - it is.

I want the throttle to drop to idle with out hanging up.

Is the staring scenario described normal for this bike? In my experience with other bikes, its not.

Has any one seen this and have a solution?



thanks
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Old September 6th, 2021, 07:36 PM   #30
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@How2, Welcome to the board. It would be better to start your own thread, rather than mix up your questions with marshallsmith27's posts.
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Old January 1st, 2022, 04:40 PM   #31
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@How2 I ended up giving up on the bike and put it back on the side of the shop. No matter what I did it wouldn't run correctly. Quite a shame I was really looking forward to riding it. I did everything I knew to do and nothing ever made it run right. It never started worth anything before it was put away so there must be something I'm missing. I was the first owner. It was a bike that was bought and not ridden once. I bought it from the original owner and it ran but always hard to start especially if it was cold.
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Old January 1st, 2022, 04:43 PM   #32
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I think its the relationship between these carbs and these engines. this carb is used on so many other bikes and I've never had a problem with the keihin cv until this bike. my Triumph has a larger version and it runs 100% of the time and starts 100% of the time no matter the temperature
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Old January 1st, 2022, 06:14 PM   #33
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send them to ducatiman for complete restoration.

These bikes ran awesome right off showroom floor. Fact that it doesn't now means carbs aren't factory fresh clean. When they are refurbished to factory-fresh clean, they will run like brand new!

Yours most likely needs deeper cleaning. Compressed air is insufficient, like trying to remove rust with air, not gonna work. One recent case require drilling out choke circuit with micro-bit, dried petrol was so tough, nothing could clear it out! Might be same situation with yours.

You didn't mention scrubbing hidden secret passages with brushes, no ultrasonic soak, no poking with wire, no micro soda-blasting. All those (and more) are needed to restore carbs that have been sitting.

I'ved owned over 6 of these bikes with exact same carbs and they all run perfectly. Except for when they sit for over 3-months without proper prep. Then they'd run like crap after that and would not behave no matter what I did to clean them. Ultimate solution was sending them to ducatiman.

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Old January 1st, 2022, 07:06 PM   #34
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@marshallsmith27
did you check/reset valve clearances?
did you synch carbs using a proper manometer?

curious, as @DannoXYZ has posted, it ran perfect right off the showroom floor.
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Old January 1st, 2022, 07:18 PM   #35
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Hay guys do you realise what he said about blocking off 5 of the vacuum ports on the carbs ???? that means he has disconnected everything but the carburetors ! the enricher for returning to idle properly is not connected anymore ...Of course it's not going to run right if half the carb is not connected !
.... put it ALL back to stock that includes all 5 vacuum lines to the various ports and let all those extra doo hickies do their thing and it will run right for you !
I learned a long time ago trying to De-californicate a car by taking all that extra **** off there is opening a can of worms that is deeper than you ever thought possible ! if all that extra "****" is still available put it back on there
if it's not and you want the bike to run right again buy new stuff !
.... they knew what they were doing when they added the extra stuff on there for emissions and they did so in a way that if you take it off it will never run right again ! .....
can a Racer make it work ...Sure any good mechanic can but can the home back yard mechanic do it ? perhaps if he has enough persistence he can !
....
if this bike has no emission control crap on it then my apologies but to me it looks obvious that he's taken it off .... and good luck hunting down the symptoms of that monster !
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Old January 1st, 2022, 07:30 PM   #36
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Good call Bob! One of those 5 ports is float-bowl vent for atmospheric-pressure reference. That one definitely needs to be open!
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Old January 1st, 2022, 08:21 PM   #37
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quoted from marshallsmith27:
"It revs great and idles somewhat okay. definitely better than it did before"


if vent were capped/plugged....no way would it rev.
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Old January 1st, 2022, 08:39 PM   #38
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I can assume that this is not a california model because it actually runs with all that stuff disconnected , if I were to do that to my 2012 250R it certainly would not ! fresh air decel valve or what ever it's called would be out of the picture and that's the other half of the carburetor that they didn't put in the carb they made it separately and added it on..... a load of malarkey but that's what they did.... and they work fine the way they are .... mess with them at your peril !
in the early 1970's when the emission junk first came out you could get away with taking out the stuff and getting away with it.... not any more !
... you would be far better off taking the carbs off entirely and putting on different carbs slightly bigger and all in one piece ! but I am not really positive even that would work as the electronic ignition may not like it ! what's that got to do with it you ask ? well some have electronic enrichers now, and if you confuse the computer you got a problem ! this electronic Witchery is scary, it could be construed as VOODOO even and I don't want to be hexed by a electronic gizmo so i make it a point to know what I'm doing when I play with modifications ......
and with this in mind I have to wonder about the sanity of my purchase of a CSC RX4.... that is fuel injected, ( it has a brain !) ABS brakes ( it knows how to stop fast better than you do ) and can even decide when to change your headlight when entering a dark tunnel....
.... if they keep this up the rider will just be along for the ride.... there's nothing to really work on unless something gives up.... but I am hoping that this NEW generation of motorcycle will listen to the owner better !
like please ,please don't stop now I don't want to push you 5 miles !....
that never worked on my old bikes.... perhaps it will on the new ones eh ? .... it COULD happen ! HAHAHAHAH
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Old January 1st, 2022, 08:48 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
quoted from marshallsmith27:
"It revs great and idles somewhat okay. definitely better than it did before"


if vent were capped/plugged....no way would it rev.
perhaps vent-tube O-rings are worn-out enough to allow atmospheric venting? If so fuel-rail O-rings would be equally worn and sucking in air instead of fuel.
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Old January 1st, 2022, 08:53 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII View Post
this electronic Witchery is scary, it could be construed as VOODOO even and I don't want to be hexed by a electronic gizmo so i make it a point to know what I'm doing when I play with modifications ......
As Arthur C. Clark says, “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”

Modern hot-rodding is done in software!
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