Question about oil blend

[MoMoney]

I have question about the type of oil blend I should use in my bike. I have a 2010 with 1285 miles on it. I purchased this bike a few weeks ago and the oil has never been changed. Went to my dealer to pick up the oil and filter. Was going to buy the Amsoil 10w40. The parts guy told me, he didn't recommend sythetic oil in my 250. He said he tried a half synthetic blend in his racing 250 and it caused his clutch to slip. Has anyone heard of this? I'm just wanting the best for my bike. Any recommendations would be appreciated

[stubshaft]

NOPE!

I use full synthetic Rotel in mine and have never had the clutch slip. If someone at the stealership told me that story I would definitely be looking for a new place to take my bike.

[MoMoney]

Originally Posted by stubshaft

NOPE!

I use full synthetic Rotel in mine and have never had the clutch slip. If someone at the stealership told me that story I would definitely be looking for a new place to take my bike.

Thanks for your response, he must not have been using the wrong oil for the
wet clutches. I'm going to get me some full synthetic today

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by MoMoney

I have question about the type of oil blend I should use in my bike. I have a 2010 with 1285 miles on it. I purchased this bike a few weeks ago and the oil has never been changed. Went to my dealer to pick up the oil and filter. Was going to buy the Amsoil 10w40. The parts guy told me, he didn't recommend sythetic oil in my 250. He said he tried a half synthetic blend in his racing 250 and it caused his clutch to slip. Has anyone heard of this? I'm just wanting the best for my bike. Any recommendations would be appreciated

Typical...

It wasn't the oil. The clutch was either toast or not adjusted properly.

The proper synthetic oil is an advantage in almost every situation (especially extremes) in a cycle engine.

[MoMoney]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Typical...

It wasn't the oil. The clutch was either toast or not adjusted properly.

The proper synthetic oil is an advantage in almost every situation (especially extremes) in a cycle engine.

That's what I was thinking, what do you think about Castrol full
synthetic? They've been around a long time.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by MoMoney

That's what I was thinking, what do you think about Castrol full
synthetic? They've been around a long time.

I like it.

I am running Castrol 4T RS 10W-40 in my SV650 right now. I've run Rotella T6 (synthetic 5W-40) and it's fine, but after 1000 mi or so the shifting isn't as good as before. The Castrol doesn't change.

[MoMoney]

Originally Posted by jkv45

I like it.

I am running Castrol 4T RS 10W-40 in my SV650 right now. I've run Rotella T6 (synthetic 5W-40) and it's fine, but after 1000 mi or so the shifting isn't as good as before. The Castrol doesn't change.

Good to know, thanks

[DEFY]

I heard chainsaw oil is good for a bikes motor

[MoMoney]

Originally Posted by DEFY

I heard chainsaw oil is good for a bikes motor

[broilmebk]

Out of curiosity, what does the clutch slipping feel like?

[EsrTek]

Feels like the bike has clutched pulled in when you are not actually pulling in on clutch.

You will feel a slip in power, I guess is way to say it.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by broilmebk

Out of curiosity, what does the clutch slipping feel like?

The engine's RPMs increase but the cycle doesn't accelerate.

[dcj13]

Originally Posted by DEFY

I heard chainsaw oil is good for a bikes motor

Good one! Especially the 2-strokes with worn rings. And make sure to sharpen that chain!

[mgentz]

synthetic does wonders for the 250. Don't listen to THAT guy...

[fast1075]

The only oil I have had trouble with relating to the clutch is Castrol Syntech blend oil. Amsoil is good oil, but it will make the transmission feel different (notchy) in the 10-40 weight, not so much with the 20-50.

I currently am running the Castrol 4t oil in 20-50 weight. It works well. I use the 20-50 because it is always warm(ish) here. If I ride on a cool day, I just let it warm up good first.

[mgentz]

Amsoil has a v-twin weight oil as well.

[KrazyWalle]

I did 3 oil changes when I was braking in the bike.
1st oil change was at 600mi with regular oil.
2nd change was like at 1,200-1,500mi that was done with Lucas Semi-Syn.
3rd oil change I went straight to Syn. Castrol. I'm now using Amsoil works great for me. I do occasionally get a false neutral but it's hard to tell if it's the oil or me shifting like a girl..

[mgentz]

Shifting technique

[dcj13]

Originally Posted by KrazyWalle

...occasionally get a false neutral but it's hard to tell if it's the oil or me...

So are the Ninjettes known to have false neutrals? I haven't noticed any with my pre-gen. BMW first generation K-bikes, on the other hand, are famous for false neutrals: the way to avoid them it to preload the shift lever before you shift. Perhaps I'm doing that on the Ninjette out of habit (without realizing it)?

[mgentz]

No issues

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by fast1075

The only oil I have had trouble with relating to the clutch is Castrol Syntech blend oil. Amsoil is good oil, but it will make the transmission feel different (notchy) in the 10-40 weight, not so much with the 20-50.

I currently am running the Castrol 4t oil in 20-50 weight. It works well. I use the 20-50 because it is always warm(ish) here. If I ride on a cool day, I just let it warm up good first.

Even if the ambient temps are high, there's rarely a need to go heavier than 10W-40 if you are using synthetic.

Water cooled engines rarely overheat the oil, and synthetic will cover any viscosity breakdown that could have occured with conventional oil from higher that normal (over 200) oil temps. Cruising on the highway even in 100 degree heat isn't going to cause oil pressure issues.

Heavier oil builds unnecessarily high oil pressure and move slower - which in turn carries heat away slower.

Unless you are racing in extremely high temps there's no need to go heavier than a good 10W-40 synthetic oil, and even then chances are good a 10W-40 will still provide adequate oil pressure.

[fast1075]

The OP's question was about oil and clutch slippage. Oils that have issues in wet clutches are the one with friction modifiers, and are labeled "energy saving".

The "don't use synthetic oil in a new engine" is largely a myth. It more relates to saving money on the first couple of low mileage oil changes than any difficulty in the break-in process. Several manufacturers use synthetic oil as the original fill on new bikes, one of which is Erik Buell Racing, which exclusively uses Amsoil.

When I bought my 250, the original owner said he used Motul oil in it. It shifted very smoothly. I did an oil change and used garden variety Castrol GTX 20/50 and it liked it. The next change, I used 10-40 Amsoil. The engine ran cooler, but the shifting was clunky and notchy, not buttery smooth. I changed to the Castrol 4t and it once again is buttery smooth.

My Buell, on the other hand likes the Amsoil best. Go Figure. My scooter gets genuine Honda oil so there will be no BS over warranty if an engine problem pops up.

My truck will go 3000 miles between changes without needing any oil added if I use Pennzoil High Mileage oil, but will use a quart every 1000 miles with any other oil I have tried. Figure that one out.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by fast1075

The OP's question was about oil and clutch slippage. Oils that have issues in wet clutches are the one with friction modifiers, and are labeled "energy saving".

The "don't use synthetic oil in a new engine" is largely a myth. It more relates to saving money on the first couple of low mileage oil changes than any difficulty in the break-in process. Several manufacturers use synthetic oil as the original fill on new bikes, one of which is Erik Buell Racing, which exclusively uses Amsoil.

When I bought my 250, the original owner said he used Motul oil in it. It shifted very smoothly. I did an oil change and used garden variety Castrol GTX 20/50 and it liked it. The next change, I used 10-40 Amsoil. The engine ran cooler, but the shifting was clunky and notchy, not buttery smooth. I changed to the Castrol 4t and it once again is buttery smooth.

My Buell, on the other hand likes the Amsoil best. Go Figure. My scooter gets genuine Honda oil so there will be no BS over warranty if an engine problem pops up.

My truck will go 3000 miles between changes without needing any oil added if I use Pennzoil High Mileage oil, but will use a quart every 1000 miles with any other oil I have tried. Figure that one out.

I agree that lots of new engines come with synthetic from the factory, but I bet most of those engines get some dyno time to break-in under load before going out the door. The actual break-in - seating of the rings - happens pretty quickly in the right conditions. With the proper sensors you can see it on a dyno as a "blow-by" reading. When the rings have seated the reading will drop down significantly over what it was initially.

As far as using GTX in a cycle engine goes - it's not a good idea. The main issue isn't Friction Modifiers (any 40-grade and above oil doesn't have them anyway) it's the lack of safe levels of ZDDP (zinc and phosphorus) that protect the cams and rockers from galling. Current auto oils have lower levels of ZDDP due to stricter requirements on the lifespan of the catalyst, which is fine if the engine has roller lifter/rockers. Most cycle engines don't have rollers (except the Honda CBR250R that i know of) and need the higher levels of ZDDP.

A good low cost alternative to cycle-specific oils are diesel oils. The are not required to have lower ZDDP levels like auto oils, and are generally a good choice. Rotella T 15W-40 (warm temps only due to the "15W" rating) or T6 5W-40 (better for all conditions especially cold temps) synthetic or similar oils are a safe choice for all cycle engine IMO.

Most "High Mileage" oils have seal conditioners that swell engine seals to help reduce oil consumption. They also have higher levels of ZDDP, as they assume the higher mileage engine has solid valvetrain components instead of rollers like newer designs.

[fast1075]

A worthy and insightful post jkv45.

[Bob2010]

Why do people keep trying to re-engineer the bikes ? There is specific bike oil, just buy it lol
I been using off the shelf castrol 4T syn oil after about 1200 miles and 1 oil change. Used in both bikes now with k&n filters. I'll see what black stone labs report will say this spring when I turn over the samples.
It's one thing to experiment with your own property but don't suggest people use oil that isn't specified for our bikes.
I come here and pick the brains of the memebers with experience. I trust your opinions and trued and tried methods. But I would be disappointed if I read these posts and had clutch issues because I used a oil not destined for the bike to save $4

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Bob2010

Why do people keep trying to re-engineer the bikes ? There is specific bike oil, just buy it lol
I been using off the shelf castrol 4T syn oil after about 1200 miles and 1 oil change. Used in both bikes now with k&n filters. I'll see what black stone labs report will say this spring when I turn over the samples.
It's one thing to experiment with your own property but don't suggest people use oil that isn't specified for our bikes.
I come here and pick the brains of the memebers with experience. I trust your opinions and trued and tried methods. But I would be disappointed if I read these posts and had clutch issues because I used a oil not destined for the bike to save $4

You need to know why you need a specific type of oil for a motocycle engine to make an educated decision.

Shouldn't you use only Kawasaki engine oil in a Kawasaki then? And Honda oil in a Honda - isn't that what they recommend? Isn't that the best? Isn't that all there is to it? No - no it's not.

Castrol won't even tell you what levels of additives (ZDDP) 4T has - I've asked - so is it safe?.

As I said, the major issue isn't clutch slippage - that's minor. The major issue is the lack of additives in certain oils that can contribute to major engine damage.

Do some of your own research and see exactly why cycle-specific oils are recommended.

Rotella T6 is JASO-MA rated for wet clutches, so it is certified safe in that respect. Shell didn't certify all of the other Rotella grades mostly because of cost, but I was told by a Shell Technical Rep that all Rotella T Multi-grade oils (not straight grades though) have the same additive package as T6.

Use what you feel comfortable with, and if you don't believe what you read here (or on the Internet) do some research until you find at least a couple independent trusted sources that agree.

Basically my intent here (and elsewhere) is to convince people not to use auto oils in the cycle engine, and that oils designed for diesel engines are a much better low-cost alternative.

If you want to call BS on what I've said - go ahead - but you'll need to post some legitimate info to prove it.

[Bob2010]

Hey I'm not posting to upset you or your views. It's just how you imply them.
Telling people to its OK to use or recommended to use an oil that isn't recommended or approved by the motorcyle manufactor isn't something that sits well with me.
Like I said before , I wouldn't want to read this thread , save a few bucks using diesel oil and then have an issue with my clutch.
Are you personally going to back everyone's bike with a garuantee ?
If my clutch fails and I used the appropriate oil, then I know where I stand with my warranty.

I read these before and I almost bought the oil. I just can't fathom why would anyone want to get rotella when there is a bottle sitting on same shelf that states specifically formulated for our bikes ?

[flitecontrol]

Here's a link to a test of motorcycle specific versus automotive oil in motorcycles: http://www.motorcyclenews.com/mcn/ne...e-oil-rip-off/

I use automotive oil in mine.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by flitecontrol

Here's a link to a test of motorcycle specific versus automotive oil in motorcycles: http://www.motorcyclenews.com/mcn/ne...e-oil-rip-off/

I use automotive oil in mine.

I've seen that - it was written in 1994! Direct link - http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/oiltest1.htm - first sentence.

Oils have changed. Auto oils are no longer safe to use.

They were comparing old auto oil (with adequate levels of ZDDP) to cycle-specific oils with even higher levels of ZDDP. Now the levels of ZDDP in auto oil are about 30% less than they were at that time.

Also, in high performance/high RPM applications, where valve spring pressures are greater, ZDDP is more important than in normal/lower RPM applications.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Bob2010

Hey I'm not posting to upset you or your views. It's just how you imply them.
Telling people to its OK to use or recommended to use an oil that isn't recommended or approved by the motorcyle manufactor isn't something that sits well with me.
Like I said before , I wouldn't want to read this thread , save a few bucks using diesel oil and then have an issue with my clutch.
Are you personally going to back everyone's bike with a garuantee ?
If my clutch fails and I used the appropriate oil, then I know where I stand with my warranty.

I read these before and I almost bought the oil. I just can't fathom why would anyone want to get rotella when there is a bottle sitting on same shelf that states specifically formulated for our bikes ?

It's up to the individual to decide if they want to believe what they read on the Internet. I'm confident in my information, but if you don't trust it - do your own research. Why don't you do some research and post why you believe my recommendation is incorrect or why it will cause damage to your engine?

You like guarantees, don't you? Try to get your clutch replaced under warranty and see how much of a "guarantee" you get.

If you look up "JASO-MA rating" you will see that is a designation that certifies ("guarantees") it's safe for wet clutches. All cycle-specific oils have the same certification.

You can see by flitecontrol's post that he's not even buying my recommendation of diesel oils - and my warning not to use auto oils .

As I said before, I totally believe any standard auto oil to be a very bad choice for a cycle engine for the reasons I stated above - but everyone is free to use anything they like!

Kawasaki's recommendation reads - "Kawasaki Performance 4-stroke Motor oil, Kawasaki Performance Semi-Synthetic Motor Oil, Kawasaki Performance Full-Synthetic Motor Oil, or other 4-stroke oils with API SG, SH, SJ, SL, SM, and JASO-MA, MA1 or MA2 rating.


http://www.kawasaki-techinfo.net/sho...1&lang_code=EN

Rotella T6 -

http://www.euris.rs/maziva/Rotela-T6.pdf

[mgentz]

I like motorcycle specific oils due to their anti-foaming and anti-wear capabilities. I ran auto oil in my bike to break it in.....changed it to synthetic 200 miles later.

[flitecontrol]

A little clarification. By automotive oil, I was including oils that are often used in or rated for diesel engines, to differentiate them from motorcycle specific oils. I've used Rotella, Castol and other brands of oil in the 10W-40 to 15-W-50 range, depending on ambient temperature, in my bikes.

What strikes me about the 1994 test, is that those who sold the motorcycle specific oil claimed it was better for motorcycles. When confronted with the test results, they couldn't explain why it didn't perform as well or better than some of the automotive oils it was tested against. Similar claims are being made today by those selling motorcycle oils, but there is still little or no data supporting their claims.

Marketing is designed to get folks to buy a product, whether it's an American made brand of motorcycle, or a specific oil. Consumers buy into the marketing pitch for a variety of reasons; "it's a lifestyle [and I'm secretly a BA biker, so I'm gonna get one]", "it costs more, so it must be better", "my ride will last forever if I use XYZ brand of oil", etc., etc. Without independent test data to back up such claims, consumers tend to make emotional, rather than rational decisions when purchasing such stuff.

[dcj13]

Cool! A full-on oil thread! My first on ninjette.org!

Anecdotal observations, strong beliefs, and opinions. It's almost analogous to religious discussion, complete with quoting scriptures that sometimes conflict with each other.

And I have my oil and filter beliefs. And they have evolved (perhaps devolved) over the years. I do know that if I ever experienced clutch slippage unexpectedly right after an oil change, I would replace the offending oil with what I thought to be a non-offending oil and not worry about it.

And if I suspected foaming, I would look for evidence in the oil level sight glass.

Keep up the good posts, folks!

[fast1075]

Oh NOZE! Not an oil thread!!! :doh

How about opening a tire scuffing, or countersteering, or "couldn't make the turn", or "had to lay 'er down" thread or two.

I headed to town to get some oil on my bike with new tires. At the first turn I countersteered, the tires skidded, I couldn't make the turn and had to lay 'er down, and my flip flops flew off, and I rashed my ass cause my shorts tore off, lost my sunglasses, and tore up my fingerless gloves, skint up my new NOZZ bottle, and scratched the chrome on my stretched swingarm and wheels.

[dcj13]

Originally Posted by fast1075

Oh NOZE! Not an oil thread!!! :doh

How about opening a tire scuffing, or countersteering, or "couldn't make the turn", or "had to lay 'er down" thread or two.

I headed to town to get some oil on my bike with new tires. At the first turn I countersteered, the tires skidded, I couldn't make the turn and had to lay 'er down, and my flip flops flew off, and I rashed my ass cause my shorts tore off, lost my sunglasses, and tore up my fingerless gloves, skint up my new NOZZ bottle, and scratched the chrome on my stretched swingarm and wheels.

Did you damage your K&N air filter or aftermarket exhaust?

[mgentz]

I love oil threads. Do what you will Unregistered, my bike is still faster as I have more stickers.

[dcj13]

Originally Posted by mgentz

I love oil threads. Do what you will Unregistered, my bike is still faster as I have more stickers.

Mike, I'm sure it is faster! And I enjoy the oil threads, too!

[Boom King]

My oil is better than yours because I said so.

But seriously I've used Rotella T6 without issue. I buy a jug or two when it's on sale.

[jkv45]

Everyone loves to rip on oil threads...

The only reason I keep chiming-in on them is because there continues to be so much WRONG information floating around out there - everywhere.

I've researched this for years, have spoken to numerous manufacturers, and feel very confident that the information and recommendations I post are correct.

I'm not selling anything, just trying to give a safe alternative for those that do not want to purchase a motorcycle-specific oil. The cost for a good alternative (diesel oil) is almost exactly the same as the cost of a bad one (auto oil) - why not run the good one? I see it as a PSA.

When I say "Don't run auto oil!" - I mean it!

[mgentz]

Jay,

I get it. I have used Mobil and Shell Diesel oils with no known side effects. In fact, I still run Mobil turbo diesel truck in the dirtbike. Currently, the ninja 250 runs Amsoil because of my experiences with their oils in my two-stroke motors. In this application, they cannot be beat. However, as has been said, everyone has their own preference and they will swear up and down that there stuff is the best. It's kinda like the Ford/Chevy/Dodge truck debate.