Official 2013 Ninja 300 (and 250) Thread

[ninjaone]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

IMO there is a split when moving up from the 250. 600s are racing machines built with high quality racing parts, the ninja 650 is more of a sport touring machine and the 250 is inbetween those two.

There is no doubt that a 600 will allow you to advance your skills more than a 250, but that takes place on a race track not a city street

Again, compromises. The Ninja 650 is more comfortable then the ZX6R, but why? Well it has softer suspension for one, which means the cornering limits will be much lower, which means you have a higher chance of bottoming or topping out the suspension and running out of your limits of traction. Which is really better for beginners? The supersport will also have a much more communicative feel about what the wheels are doing compared to the "mushy" 650. Not to mention the suspension is much cheaper quality, so buying a used 650 will most likely have a worn suspension. Is a newbie going to know when to adjust, change, rebuild, replace a suspension system? Especially on a bike that can go as fast as a 650 I think it's not a trivial point.

Another thing regarding comfort, there is a reason supersport ergonomics are designed the way they are. They are designed for the rider to have maximum control of the bike. The high handle bars and upright seating position of the Ninja 650 don't allow as much control and feel as the low clip ons and high foot pegs on the ZX6R. Not saying you need to hang off the bike through every corner, but a supersport will emphasize better riding technique for those that want to learn it.

And I don't agree you need to go to a track to learn proper riding technique on a supersport. Yes, it helps. It helps to take your 250 or 650 to the track too. Plenty of people use 600-class supersports as daily drivers and no matter what bike you are on there is an opportunity to practice solid smooth control, managing traction, and knowing your limits. It just so happens the limits on the 600 supersport are generally much higher.

Again, all I'm saying is that there are pros and cons to each bike. A supersport isn't great for cross country touring, but people still do it and thoroughly enjoy it. Then again they do make touring bikes for a reason.

My only advice to those reading is to not write off supersports just because of what you heard on forums. Go to a demo day and try them out. You might really enjoy yourself.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by dirty nasty

No, my thoughts are well backed through my experiences. If you can't do it on a 250, you can't do it on a SS bike. Why the **** would you want to do long range touring on a SS bike anyways? There are other bikes much better suited toward that duty that will actually provide some level of comfort. People are free to ride whatever they want, but I think to think you NEED something is a bit ridiculous. I say quit being a baby and deal with it.

Like I (well, Jiggles I suppose) said, brain surgeon's going for the janitor's position.

Where did I mention a supersport in my response to you?

A FJR 1300, GS-1200, Tiger 1050, VFR 800, even a bloody honda dullville700 are all over your limit and as such are absurd... every one of them is more suited to touring than any 299cc bike.

So yes you sound like a complete fcukin idiot.

Go ride a few more bikes, take one across the country & see how a sub 300cc bike compares to a 750+ cc sports tourer or adventure bike for that.

I've taken my ninja across 3 countries in 2 days, done a few weekends where I clocked over a thousand miles of backroad & a few days where I did 13 hours on the bike. >300cc is not a luxury for that sort of riding.

BTW I know a few people who have toured europe on bikes including RC51s (V-twin superbike) CBR600s & a 636. I wouldn't say no to using a CBR600f4i (or maybe an 05 model R6) to go across england, take the tunnel to france (bike goes on a train for that bit) & down towards the black forest in Germany & possibly Switzerland.

Both are older supersports & both are comfortable enough to go for a good spin

[ninjamunky85]

I gotta say I think ninjaone knows what he's talking about. Getting back from an extended ride on my buddies ZX-6RR today made me rethink what my next bike will be.

The suspension is really nice on that bike. The weight difference isn't as big as I thought it was, and it was still fun to ride at legal speeds. The riding position forces you to be in the proper position for max control at speed.

It's still a pain to maneuver in the slow stuff. You can't throw it into turns like the 250, but in the long sweepers it's super stable.

Originally Posted by areifel

This is awesome news!


Still waiting to see if Yamaha surprises us with a 250.

Here you go! Been around a while now.

http://www.yamaha-motor.ca/products/...oup=M|&LANG=en

Style sucks though!

[alex.s]

guys its true they are saving money so they are cutting old zx motors in half
Posted via Mobile Device

[I'm Fred]

If they manage to keep the weight/power ratio of the 250 this could be a very very nice new-gen...I hope they don't **** it up on the aesthetic side too lol

[Jiggles]

Paging doctor @trolltits

Where'd you go bro? U mad?

[5evenz]

[CZroe]

While I agree that this thread is awfully trollish, I do have to wonder what Kawi may do to differentiate themselves, especially seeing as how the CBR250 already has ABS and FI. If Yamaha actually is interested in a 250 entry, then this may be even more incentive for Kawi to differentiate.

[sombo]

I do remember taking a Kawasaki survey online (an old thread had linked us to it on here) that had several questions about the idea of a 300cc. So it's not completely out of the question for them do as such. They apparently had/have an idea for one and used the survey to get an idea on the possibility of it being a good sell or a bad flop. I guess we will just have to wait for the official announcement on all 2013 models from them to see what happens.

[Jiggles]

Wouldn't a 300cc engine make it so they could not be beginner bikes in many countries?

[DennyV]

Both are crappy beginner bikes, that being said, an you use one as a beginner bike? Sure thing, hd plenty of my friends start on a supersport who are still alive today. Now just for your information.... torque is turning force... pretty much helps with acceleration, and torque can get you in trouble depending on where it peaks in the rpm range. Horse power is torque times rpm, this is why a ss makes more hp then a 650, they have an insanely high redline, hp caan also get you in trouble if you wanna fly into a wall at 150mph. My conclusion, neither is beginner friendly unless your a fatass which negates the difference between the 250

[THE BIG SITT]

Originally Posted by massacremasses

I <3 u

Shouldn't it be Sandusky in that picture?

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Wouldn't a 300cc engine make it so they could not be beginner bikes in many countries?

They'd just sleeve it down like the 650R-to-400R or detune it like so many sport or sport-touring bikes with supersport power plants..

[Jiggles]

So this guy has inside sources saying it will be a 300cc bike and n4mwd has sources telling him next year the bike will be fuel injected. So basically next years 250 is going to have an MSRP of $5,999

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

So this guy has inside sources saying it will be a 300cc bike and n4mwd has sources telling him next year the bike will be fuel injected. So basically next years 250 is going to have an MSRP of $5,999

May as well, if Yamaha and Honda are going to duke it out in $4,500-$5,000 territory: yeah. Why settle for a portion of that market when they can offer a larger bike with a larger price that largely appeals to the same buyers and may attract more? I'd estimate $5,399 base with a $500 ABS option and an additional mark up for special edition or sporty accessories (optional solo seat cowl, steering damper, adjustable suspension, etc). They'd probably hold out on the SE treatment until the second year of the new model.

[I'm Fred]

Originally Posted by CZroe

May as well, if Yamaha and Honda are going to duke it out in $4,500-$5,000 territory: yeah. Why settle for a portion of that market when they can offer a larger bike with a larger price that largely appeals to the same buyers and may attract more? I'd estimate $5,399 base with a $500 ABS option and an additional mark up for special edition or sporty accessories (optional solo seat cowl, steering damper, adjustable suspension, etc). They'd probably hold out on the SE treatment until the second year of the new model.

Steering damper on a 250/300? Would that really be necessary? I don't think they'll add so many options to the ninjette, paying that much would defeat its most common utility: being a starter bike. It has to be simple, teach the basics effectively and safely. Spending 6k on a 300CC with ABS and steering damper would be pretty much pointless if your goal is to learn and progress to a more powerful bike eventually

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by I'm Fred

Steering damper on a 250/300? Would that really be necessary? I don't think they'll add so many options to the ninjette, paying that much would defeat its most common utility: being a starter bike. It has to be simple, teach the basics effectively and safely. Spending 6k on a 300CC with ABS and steering damper would be pretty much pointless if your goal is to learn and progress to a more powerful bike eventually

It's a $900 hike for fuel injection and a 20% larger engine. Everyone estimates $500 for FI so $400 for the extra size/power isn't that far off base and may attract quite a few who might be on the fence about the CBR250 or R2.5 vs a larger bike. A lot who weren't considering a bike twice the size would still go for it because it isn't significantly larger than the other options but is measurably better. I suspect that the economies of scale for adding FI isn't as expensive as people estimate, so it may be possible to sell it for under $5,000 on the introductory year. It's not like more CCs automatically means that it cost more to make, which is even more incentive for Kawi to just do it. They already have a FI version and the economies of scale will only make it cheaper to produce than the current FI model. They could conceivably offer 300cc Euro-spec for LESS money than the current model, though it would be a problem for graduated licensing so they would more likely sell the same thing but sleeved down.

I'm just saying that it could be a smart move if the Yamaha 250 rumor is true. Also, I know the steering damper sounds silly, but so is a slipper clutch on a street bike. It's just one more way they could profit off of the perceived performance advantage it would have over the competition. And the pointlessness of it for a bike targetted at learners is exactly why I suggested that it would make sense only as an option (profit off of the few that want more).

[seanshawnS]

Originally Posted by CZroe

May as well, if Yamaha and Honda are going to duke it out in $4,500-$5,000 territory: yeah. Why settle for a portion of that market when they can offer a larger bike with a larger price that largely appeals to the same buyers and may attract more? I'd estimate $5,399 base with a $500 ABS option and an additional mark up for special edition or sporty accessories (optional solo seat cowl, steering damper, adjustable suspension, etc). They'd probably hold out on the SE treatment until the second year of the new model.

How much does it cost them to keep a dog in the fight? I was under the impression the 250 was pretty cheap to produce. If they give up the 250 they've conceded a pretty significant portion of the market to Honda, with both the 250cbr and the 125 being success stories.

I would think an updated 250, technologically speaking for North America would be more likely than a 300. Especially when considering the 400 that already exists.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by seanshawnS

How much does it cost them to keep a dog in the fight? I was under the impression the 250 was pretty cheap to produce. If they give up the 250 they've conceded a pretty significant portion of the market to Honda, with both the 250cbr and the 125 being success stories.

I would think an updated 250, technologically speaking for North America would be more likely than a 300. Especially when considering the 400 that already exists.

As indicated earlier when discussing the measurements for boring it out, it wouldn't cost them a dime more to make it 298cc instead of 250cc and yet they could charge more. Keeping their dog in the race would be more costly if they DIDN'T do it after carving out their portion of a more crowded 250cc segment. Remember: We didn't even have a 250cc racing class a few years ago and it's still not settled, so that's not keeping Kawi at 250cc.

[Carnage]

you gotta prove it. i dont believe you

over the last 5 yrs the 250 has been kawi top seller why would they leave a market that they have dominated for so long.

[jcgss77]

Originally Posted by Racer x

I did a lot of measurements. With custom sleeves and pistons. The max you can bore a 250 ninja into is a 299cc. Kawasaki could built a 299cc bike and not change the price. The extra 50cc would be worth 5-10 hp so would you like to have a stock 250 ninja with 30 to 35 hp?

So my question is, would this engine hold up if it was bored out that much? I find this extremely interesting, as the ZXR-250 is my dream bike, it would pretty much be the closest thing to it(minus 2 cylinders, of course). You think it would last at the driving a 250r usually gets, lots of high rpms? If so, sign me up!!!

[DennyV]

Originally Posted by jcgss77

So my question is, would this engine hold up if it was bored out that much? I find this extremely interesting, as the ZXR-250 is my dream bike, it would pretty much be the closest thing to it(minus 2 cylinders, of course). You think it would last at the driving a 250r usually gets, lots of high rpms? If so, sign me up!!!

Or they can just make up the extra Hp by letting the 250 rev as high as the SS bikes

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by DennyV

Or they can just make up the extra Hp by letting the 250 rev as high as the SS bikes

This market needs a $7,000 250, but its an i4 not a twin

[jcgss77]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

This market needs a $7,000 250, but its an i4 not a twin

Oh yeah with EFI and turbo...it would be a new generation of

[Racer x]

You can buy pistons from JE that will go 282cc. But you need sleeves. I run the 265 cc pistons with just a bored out stock cylinder. JE says you will not need to re balance the rotating mass with this up grade.
From what I got. If you bore to 299cc you need sleeves custom pistons and re balance and there is only 2mm between the sleeves. Anything larger will requier stroking the crank. That is big money.

I have seen the 250cc In4 bikes. I was not that impressed. No torque and you have to wring the ne to 15000 rpm to get any power .I would rather have a hoped up twin with a nice aluminum frame. Olines suspension and brembo brakes.

[Jiggles]

I'd rather have a 250 that revs to 20k

[Racer x]

I would rather have an engine that revs to 14500 that I can fix

[ninja250r81]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Wouldn't a 300cc engine make it so they could not be beginner bikes in many countries?

in aussie

for l's, p1, p2 the bike can have a max 660cc limit but with a max power to weight ratio of 150kw per ton

our top selling bikes are the 250 class including ninja 250r, cbr250, hyosung

insurance is around 1/4 of a 600cc bike

[Racer x]

There is a very fine line . If the factory was to build a beginner bike that is inexpensive. You get a Ninja 250. If you start to jack up the performance. Then you get to the same price as a 600. No one will pay 6500 to 8500 dollars for a 40 hp bike no mater what size it is.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by Carnage

you gotta prove it. i dont believe you

over the last 5 yrs the 250 has been kawi top seller why would they leave a market that they have dominated for so long.

That's just it: it isn't far enough away to be consider "leaving." It's more like stepping out in front. For the last five years they didn't have two major competitors with 250cc sport bikes. Assuming the Yamaha rumor is true, maintaininging their sales success from the last five years may require this at a value price which would still be more profitable (manufacturing costs stay the same, price raises only enough to distinguish it).

[Carnage]

Originally Posted by CZroe

That's just it: it isn't far enough away to be consider "leaving." It's more like stepping out in front. For the last five years they didn't have two major competitors with 250cc sport bikes. Assuming the Yamaha rumor is true, maintaininging their sales success from the last five years may require this at a value price which would still be more profitable (manufacturing costs stay the same, price raises only enough to distinguish it).

Yamaha is releasing the 250 to India. Not the US. Changing to a higher cc will not bring them more business especially if it's gonna be a grand more expensive. I would suggest they create a 4cyl 250cc engine with duel front disk, efi, new exterior design. Just doesn't make sense to built a 300cc bike for only one market. The 250 is in all markets that kawi sales in.

I still call BS till I have proof.

[Stingray1000]

Originally Posted by Carnage

Yamaha is releasing the 250 to India. Not the US. Changing to a higher cc will not bring them more business especially if it's gonna be a grand more expensive. I would suggest they create a 4cyl 250cc engine with duel front disk, efi, new exterior design. Just doesn't make sense to built a 300cc bike for only one market. The 250 is in all markets that kawi sales in.

I still call BS till I have proof.

Aren't they building a 400 CC bike for only one market? Canada.....?

[seanshawnS]

Originally Posted by Stingray1000

Aren't they building a 400 CC bike for only one market? Canada.....?

It's available in the U.K.. and New Zealand? as well I think.

[Carnage]

Multiple markets. But I would be Kool with getting the 400 here. That would me kick azz

[ScorpionNinja]

Originally Posted by Sinister

I haven't heard anything about this but i will say that the 250 was conspicuous in its absence at the demo days tour this year.

+1 This.

Maybe their going to design a Fuel Injected, 400cc Inline-4 motor and stuff it on the current gen, 250s chassis. Hopefully putting out 55-65 HP? On a 375 lbs, agile, flickable 250 bike???

Sign me up for one...

[Jiggles]

This thread

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by Carnage

Yamaha is releasing the 250 to India. Not the US. Changing to a higher cc will not bring them more business especially if it's gonna be a grand more expensive. I would suggest they create a 4cyl 250cc engine with duel front disk, efi, new exterior design. Just doesn't make sense to built a 300cc bike for only one market. The 250 is in all markets that kawi sales in.

I still call BS till I have proof.

We are discussing TWO rumors. The other rumor is that Yamaha is making one for the US/world market, which is why I said over and over "IF Yamaha..." before most of my statements about why it could make sense. It may be that Kawi is just waiting to see what Yamaha does before playing their hand: If Yamaha announces nothing, we get an unchanged 250. If Yamaha does intend to crowd their market, we get a distractingly close but distinguished offering to steal their and Honda's thunder. It may be BS, but it just makes sense.

If they only increased the cylinder size and kept the current design there's nothing that would make it measurably more expensive to produce beyond minimal one-time R&D and re-certification costs (EPA, DOT, etc), and yet people would gladly pay a little more to get more (covers that). If they also added FI, then it would have to go up significantly and would push closer to a grand but both could be added for the cost of FI alone (estimated at about $500). Standardizing FI would actually LOWER the cost of producing the FI model worldwide with less differences to accomodate on the assembly line and greater economies of scale. Sleeving back down to 250ccs for certain markets would be negligible. Rather than assuredly losing some customers to Honda and Yamaha if they do nothing, they could do minimal work and be a clear performance leader in the sub-500cc market (sub-600cc these days). That would attract quite a few beginner bikers who were on the fence about a small-displacement bike and even many who would have been perfectly fine with a 250 from them or a competitor: "An extra 50ccs in the same price range as the Honda and Yamaha 250 offerings without going up to a significantly more dangerous class for a beginner? *shrug* Why not? I'm still getting an easy-to-ride, power-limited, fuel-efficient learner's bike with all the advantages of the previous model and its competition." Think about it.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Could always resurrect GPZ305.

[Xoulrath]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

I have never ridden a 600, I have however ridden and owned a Ninja 650. That thing has too much power for the street. That bike is not a good beginner bike. How could a production 600 race bike that is arguably better in every aspect than the 650 be a good beginner bike?

Because it just is, Sean, damn. Why you gotta be hatin?