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Old October 9th, 2014, 06:35 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by micoulisninja View Post
so today I tried fitting the 300 fuel pump along with its base and housing in my 250 tank and... fail !! there is a lip around the tank hole that prevents from letting it insert properly... so first I have to remove about 2mm of the inside diameter of the tank's housing to get the pump and base in place and then, mark the new bolt pattern to get it bolted on... I guess will be doing that next week since I am working on a few details at the moment (switching clutch springs, cleaning parts, labelling bolts and stuff)

So as far as pistons are concerned and their modification, here is the Kawahara racing photo of the pistons, top and bottom... notice the valve pocket angle on the pistons as they come with the kit...

[/URL]



and here are some photos of how they ended up after shaping the crown with the PROPER angle for the 250/300 head...

[/URL]

notice how much different the shape of the piston crown has become...

[/URL]

and bottom just before balancing their weight to each other's but also on each of their side (intake and exhaust)

[/URL]

holes on side of the skirts were made to relieve pressure underneath and oil circulation

and there from left to right...
very useful precision weight scale, 300, 250 and '00 ZX-6R stock piston, and my rotating assembly ready to be installed

[/URL]
What pistons did you end up using? Weight?
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Old October 9th, 2014, 11:38 AM   #42
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Bruce, beleive it or not, these pistons on the pictures are the same pistons that come with the kit, only that they weigh 17 grams less (135,4 now instead of 152,3 when they came with the kit) and their crown shape is totally different, to accomodate properly with the head's design...
so the rotating assembly is definetely heavier than stock by about 19-20 grams but also about 25 grams lighter in total than it would be if I let it untouched...
2000 ZX-6R's stock pistons were used as reference only to compare weight, shape, deck to pin distance etc... they are from another project that failed because of a bad fuel pump...

the plan is that after a week (when the engine will have been put together and operating that is...)of few working hours each day, we will put a camera in through the plug hole to check on their condition... I will keep ignition timing advance mild and AFR relatively rich and work my way towards ideal through the wideband II tuning kit I have on the bike....
if we see any deterioration or diagnose problem having to do with their quality, I will probably give a try to the 2008 ZX-6R stock pistons, having to do some minor changes with CR , cam timing etc...
what are your thoughts on what you have seen so far ?? I see no comments from people and keeps me wondering why...

have you finished your engine yet ? at what stage are you at the moment ?
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Old October 10th, 2014, 12:22 AM   #43
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I see no comments from people and keeps me wondering why...
Nick, no comment up to now bc we see you're on a good way and what you've done so far is looking really qualified, so just go ahead.

And about your last look for rims, this is the top choice with 4.6 kg for both (compared to stock this means go with the front rim only) http://www.bikehps.com/acatalog/KTM_...le_Wheels.html

By the way, if the streets here would be better...
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Old October 10th, 2014, 05:38 AM   #44
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Nick, no comment up to now bc we see you're on a good way and what you've done so far is looking really qualified, so just go ahead.

And about your last look for rims, this is the top choice with 4.6 kg for both (compared to stock this means go with the front rim only) http://www.bikehps.com/acatalog/KTM_...le_Wheels.html

By the way, if the streets here would be better...
thank you so much Roland !! streets are not that good here either... and the problem is Pratik has answered to me that the KTM 390 rims would not fit anyway on the 250....
BST has excellent quality products !! I have a friend with a '08 ZX-10R that has been running on these for 5 years on both public roads and track and they are still in excellent shape... no signs of any even minor cracking or anything and their gloss is as good as new...
their price though is exclusively for people that are at least well-off...
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Old October 10th, 2014, 06:12 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by micoulisninja View Post
Bruce, beleive it or not, these pistons on the pictures are the same pistons that come with the kit, only that they weigh 17 grams less (135,4 now instead of 152,3 when they came with the kit) and their crown shape is totally different, to accomodate properly with the head's design...
so the rotating assembly is definetely heavier than stock by about 19-20 grams but also about 25 grams lighter in total than it would be if I let it untouched...
2000 ZX-6R's stock pistons were used as reference only to compare weight, shape, deck to pin distance etc... they are from another project that failed because of a bad fuel pump...

the plan is that after a week (when the engine will have been put together and operating that is...)of few working hours each day, we will put a camera in through the plug hole to check on their condition... I will keep ignition timing advance mild and AFR relatively rich and work my way towards ideal through the wideband II tuning kit I have on the bike....
if we see any deterioration or diagnose problem having to do with their quality, I will probably give a try to the 2008 ZX-6R stock pistons, having to do some minor changes with CR , cam timing etc...
what are your thoughts on what you have seen so far ?? I see no comments from people and keeps me wondering why...

have you finished your engine yet ? at what stage are you at the moment ?
Your pretty thorough in your posts to the point where others probably don't have anything to add. You've created an audience.

My engine will be going back together next week. I bolted the head and cylinder together on the bench to pressure test the cooling system and found no faults meaning that I don't have combustion gas getting in the cooling system rather the coolant is just boiling. One thing I did notice was that without the balance shaft the vibration around 10k made the liquid in my overflow tank do some strange dance. I don't know if this could cause the water pump to cavitate and not circulate fluid (the 250 pump is marginal at best), so I'm installing the 300 oil pump and water pump assembly as well as putting the balance shafts back in. Also adding an extra radiator. I'll dyno it when done and see what difference the balance shaft makes as far as power.
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Old October 10th, 2014, 06:31 AM   #46
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Pratik has answered to me that the KTM 390 rims would not fit anyway on the 250....
Pratik made them fit, last week I'd show one link about what the guys here are making fit, take a look to Indonesia there are the best of the best - and Nick, from what I've seen up to now from you doing in ENGINE mods, that is the high level, I'm very sure it would be a quiet easy task for you to get some rims fitted - you need some different spacer, that's all besides the rotors
But you're right - they have a price...
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Old October 10th, 2014, 11:14 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by bruce71198 View Post
Your pretty thorough in your posts to the point where others probably don't have anything to add. You've created an audience.

My engine will be going back together next week. I bolted the head and cylinder together on the bench to pressure test the cooling system and found no faults meaning that I don't have combustion gas getting in the cooling system rather the coolant is just boiling. One thing I did notice was that without the balance shaft the vibration around 10k made the liquid in my overflow tank do some strange dance. I don't know if this could cause the water pump to cavitate and not circulate fluid (the 250 pump is marginal at best), so I'm installing the 300 oil pump and water pump assembly as well as putting the balance shafts back in. Also adding an extra radiator. I'll dyno it when done and see what difference the balance shaft makes as far as power.
Excellent news !! The pressure test you did with head on block is the best possible test !!
Your guess about vibration causing insufficient water impeller performance is also correct...
upgrading to 300's water and oil pump is critical on our case but keep in mind that even if more efficient, it is only by a fragment...
you see the water pump has different number of "wings" and flows better but since driven by oil pump, it is restricted by that... the oil pump is lighter but since same teeth, no more flow is provided... optimum solution as I have mentioned before, would be making a sprocket of same "pace" but with an extra tooth for the same OD... that would increase flow (=cooling efficiency) significantly both for oil and coolant without giving excessive stress to their components and would benefit the whole engine performance through quicker heat dissipation....
so if you can make another sprocket, just do it...best investment you can do reliability-wise...
anyway, I believe it is also good you are placing balancing shaft back in... you might lose a bit of rev nerve but you will gain in overall long term endurance... imagine engine moving parts as people living right next to an airport...their houses might stand the noise (however some minor damage that becomes major with time does occur) but their mental health can never be optimum even if they behave ok... now if you take that "irritating" factor away (or diminishing it significantly) might help them restore back to ordinary city lunatics like myself...
it is a 2cyl engine... vibrations do not "damage" it but definetely worsen operating quality, so I believe dropping it back is good IMHO...

finally, extra radiator will help but still keep in mind that it is oil that it fries up when pushed and it does so in an odd manner, probably because the 250 cases take only a couple of liters of oil... just fit an oil cooler there as soon as you can get your hands on one... I am trying some Su...ki V-strom and gixxer to see which I can fit (how and where) cause I can't find any ZXR400 around for cheap...
looking forward to see how your baby works out after all !! you are setting standards for mine
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Old October 13th, 2014, 02:13 PM   #48
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so reporting on progress so far...
managed to put everything together in the bottom end just fine...

however I had a little issue with the water and oil pump fitting...I am using the 300 oil pump and the 250's water pump... at the beginning I had in mind that I would be able to swap oil pump's axle with the 250's one but that was not exactly applicable mostly because the 300 casings have diversified internal compartment shape... so after loooking at it this way, that way, I ended up that best and easiest solution was to just leave oil pump as it is and cut off 6mm of the 250's water pump axle (that much was necessary and then "reform" the axle's tip as formerly shaped with the central cut through for the oil pump to engage... sorry but no pics about that since I was in a hurry to get through with that so that tomorrow I will finish with fitting the 300 fuel pump in the 250's tank and if no other obstacles, Wednesday I start checking on kit's block and pistons on the engine...
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Old October 14th, 2014, 02:19 AM   #49
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This part is intersting mostly to guys owning FI models or interested in converting to factory's specs full FI mod...here are pics of how I had to grind part of the tank opening for the 300 pump to fit...

[/URL]

250 stock Keihin pump and housing on the left, 300 Mitsubishi on the right...

[/URL]

[/URL]

all set at last...

[/URL]

I've marked the points where new holes will be drilled to the new pump's housing but the hard part is over...
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Old October 14th, 2014, 11:50 AM   #50
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Hi nick, i remembered you want to put 250 injectors on 300 TB. Thats not possible because it is shorter, which doesnt fit on the 300 TB. Please tell me if you had any idea on how to fit the injectors
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Old October 14th, 2014, 03:24 PM   #51
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Hi nick, i remembered you want to put 250 injectors on 300 TB. Thats not possible because it is shorter, which doesnt fit on the 300 TB. Please tell me if you had any idea on how to fit the injectors
I will let you know as soon as I get to that, a week or so later... that kind of stuff is holding me back a bit but I'm sure there must be some way around... besides, using the 300's injectors is a good option anyhow. I prefer finding a way to fit the 250's just because of the extra cc and all the other mods that make the package.

If I won't be able to fit them (which I doubt) and still need bigger than 300's injectors, I will fit some from another model...I had experimented on the previous engine with Yamaha TDM 900 (which are totally different in shape and size, only the connector fit) and kawa ZX-10 just to see how it would change the fuel map, throttle response and consumption...it was interesting how differently the engine would respond only to that change but that is getting a bit too "heavy" and out of topic for the time being...what was mostly interesting about it was the fact that the engine would perform pretty well anyhow (given the fact that it is equipped with a piggyback type of fuel controller and an AFR tuner).

I know guys who chose to mod engines keeping the 250 stock fuel pump (because it is nearly impossible to fit any other pump in the stock 250 fuel pump housing the way it is shaped) and pressure regulator with bigger injectors and the outcome was a tad inferior throttle "quality" and/or strange torque curves...but then again not all make fuel maps on the road and dyno tuning can sometimes be deceiving, especially with the climate changes and great altitude differences we have here within a few miles distance...
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Old October 15th, 2014, 02:22 AM   #52
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Nick two things to remind you or what you should take care of:
1. If you don't need many electrical power then go with the alternator from the 300, this will give you a better reving with less power-output - but when you need the higher electrical power then take the one from the 250 Ninja since this one got 23 A compared to the 21 Amps from the 300.
2. This point is important since you use many parts from the 300 and idk what all, but if you use the ecu from your 250 FI then take a close look to the connections on both ecus since they may be different (not to blow yours). Also it's the best to use the one from the 250 because this one will give you the better power-output from your engine. The ecu from the 300 is way too much emission orientated, what for tuning purpose is crap (sorry for this word but there is no other one).
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Old October 15th, 2014, 05:13 AM   #53
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Nick two things to remind you or what you should take care of:
1. If you don't need many electrical power then go with the alternator from the 300, this will give you a better reving with less power-output - but when you need the higher electrical power then take the one from the 250 Ninja since this one got 23 A compared to the 21 Amps from the 300.
2. This point is important since you use many parts from the 300 and idk what all, but if you use the ecu from your 250 FI then take a close look to the connections on both ecus since they may be different (not to blow yours). Also it's the best to use the one from the 250 because this one will give you the better power-output from your engine. The ecu from the 300 is way too much emission orientated, what for tuning purpose is crap (sorry for this word but there is no other one).
Roland thank you for pointing that out to me. The bike is a road going, track visiting all arounder so I have all lighting and stuff on (but the turn signals) and in addition some more current consuming "appliances" such as a gear indicator, PC V, Auto tune, quickshifter (I am a dynojet fan after all), a manual fan engaging switch etc. I am using the whole '09 250 european FI model stock electrical stuff (stator, rotor, alternator, harness and ECU) so I am sticking with those both for compatibility puproses and since my charging demands are rather greater than either 300's or 250's... in theory the only thing troubling me at the moment (if I manage to put that puzzle together I call engine...) is what should I do about ignition timing... I still have that pic you had uploaded with the ignition advance map for every model but I don't know if I should retard it and how much... I was running my previous engine on +3degrees compared to stock 250 european map and it was ok, maybe needed one less because of the crappy fuel we put in our tanks over here...
seeing how less advance the stock 300 map has, it is troubling me whether to go for sth between 300 and 250 (e.g. +2 degrees over stock 300) or maybe stock 250...I am afraid that if I don't retard advance timing I might blow a hole in those pistons prematurely...
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Old October 16th, 2014, 05:23 AM   #54
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Roland thank you for pointing that out to me. The bike is a road going, track visiting all arounder so I have all lighting and stuff on (but the turn signals) and in addition some more current consuming "appliances" such as a gear indicator, PC V, Auto tune, quickshifter (I am a dynojet fan after all), a manual fan engaging switch etc. I am using the whole '09 250 european FI model stock electrical stuff (stator, rotor, alternator, harness and ECU) so I am sticking with those both for compatibility puproses and since my charging demands are rather greater than either 300's or 250's... in theory the only thing troubling me at the moment (if I manage to put that puzzle together I call engine...) is what should I do about ignition timing... I still have that pic you had uploaded with the ignition advance map for every model but I don't know if I should retard it and how much... I was running my previous engine on +3degrees compared to stock 250 european map and it was ok, maybe needed one less because of the crappy fuel we put in our tanks over here...
seeing how less advance the stock 300 map has, it is troubling me whether to go for sth between 300 and 250 (e.g. +2 degrees over stock 300) or maybe stock 250...I am afraid that if I don't retard advance timing I might blow a hole in those pistons prematurely...
Nick, don't retard the timing, just start with the normal stock-setup and if you feel it's good then start to advance step by step in 1 degree steps until you reach 43 degrees.
Idk if with the pcv system its possible to adjust the timing for a specific rpm range, but if this is possible then retard the low rpms up to idle by 2 degrees.
I'm waiting for my ecu to pass the customs and reach the guy who'll look for it and get the bin-file for me to make my own changes, so in the moment i don't want to say to much about it. But when I see all the secrets inside then I think i'll be able to tell you more.
Ignition setup normally must be done on the test bench or alternative on the dyno.
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Old October 16th, 2014, 11:50 PM   #55
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Nick, don't retard the timing, just start with the normal stock-setup and if you feel it's good then start to advance step by step in 1 degree steps until you reach 43 degrees.
Idk if with the pcv system its possible to adjust the timing for a specific rpm range, but if this is possible then retard the low rpms up to idle by 2 degrees.
I'm waiting for my ecu to pass the customs and reach the guy who'll look for it and get the bin-file for me to make my own changes, so in the moment i don't want to say to much about it. But when I see all the secrets inside then I think i'll be able to tell you more.
Ignition setup normally must be done on the test bench or alternative on the dyno.
My PC V was one of the earliest models since I bought it almost along with bike and has no advance timing tuning feature...My ECU had been "hacked" only for extra revving so I messed with ign timing by moving the crank sensor...
remember this ?

[/URL]

so now my ign curve is almost identical to yours from 5500 up...43 degrees max advance (3 degrees more than stock curve of european FI model)but it is by 2 degrees lower below 5500 compared to your curve...
since I will not be able to set it through the ECU or the piggy back, wouldn't the stock european FI 250 curve be safer than my current -which is pretty much like yours- for the 300 ?
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Old October 17th, 2014, 03:29 AM   #56
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My PC V was one of the earliest models since I bought it almost along with bike and has no advance timing tuning feature...My ECU had been "hacked" only for extra revving so I messed with ign timing by moving the crank sensor...

so now my ign curve is almost identical to yours from 5500 up...43 degrees max advance (3 degrees more than stock curve of european FI model)but it is by 2 degrees lower below 5500 compared to your curve...
since I will not be able to set it through the ECU or the piggy back, wouldn't the stock european FI 250 curve be safer than my current -which is pretty much like yours- for the 300 ?
Hi Nick, please be patient until I'd take a look inside the ecu. It doesn't make much sense to speculate now since it shouldn't be so long time anymore.
But as I said just go with stock setup would be a good starting point.
I'd get a picture from the guy to take a look for an example now to see what's possible (this is from the European-Version).

Attached Images
File Type: jpg ECU_EX250_0199.jpg (254.8 KB, 312 views)
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Old October 17th, 2014, 05:34 AM   #57
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Hi Nick, please be patient until I'd take a look inside the ecu. It doesn't make much sense to speculate now since it shouldn't be so long time anymore.
But as I said just go with stock setup would be a good starting point.
I'd get a picture from the guy to take a look for an example now to see what's possible (this is from the European-Version).
It doesn't make much sense to me anyway !! Don't know how to interpret those figures...so nothing I can do but be patient and await for your help ! Thank you anyway...
My mechanic says that we will start measuring my precise curve by a certain "pistol"-gauge he has especially for that kind of thing... we will make sure that the advance timing is set at a max of 42-43 degrees (@6500rpm+) as you said but will work in the opposite direction...if it feels "tight" we will retard it by 2 degrees otherwise will leave it as it is... however if you give me in the meantime a specified guideline I will follow it and experiment on that if necessary... I don't know how much of a factor it will be base CR (after we have it measured) and piston dome shape but I believe we will be close anyway...
only poor quality fuel available here however will definetely be a factor I must take into account...
made some progress today, will post pics later...
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Old October 18th, 2014, 08:38 AM   #58
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Hi nick, i remembered you want to put 250 injectors on 300 TB. Thats not possible because it is shorter, which doesnt fit on the 300 TB. Please tell me if you had any idea on how to fit the injectors
@red26 you aroused my curiosity when you mentioned that issue about the 300 injectors so, since on weekends I can't work on the engine, I decided to figure out how hard would it be to fit the 250's injectors on the 300's TBs...

for my previous 250 engine I had dumped the stock 28mm TBs and used a 31mm set from a Yamaha T-Max 500 '07 scooter which is quite popular in Greece...their center from center distance of the throttles is identical to 250's so it was perfect for the thing I had in mind... coupled with the fact that they had no secondary butterflies, it would be a matter of fitting the TPS and the throttle cable assembly-or so I thought... here it is with the 250's injectors and fuel rail...



and here is the way I built the throttle cable assembly stay with parts from other TBs I found dumped in my mechanic's store...



what you cannot see is how I managed to fit those injectors on them since thay had no holes on them for injectors to fit(the injectors on the T-max are fixed on a rubber part on the head) however they had "waiting blind points" which I drilled and widened so that I managed to get them in the proper position...the most difficult part after all was finding a place to fix steady the fuel rail...you can see how I fit it in the first pic...

the performance outcome for that upgrade had been 1-1,4 rwhp throughout the top range without deriving any power from the low-mids...

anyway, after having done that, I believed that the 300's TBs would be easier to make any mods if necessary...
so I took out both the fuel rails to compare them visually



so Red was right after all... 300's injectors are shorter, smaller at the nozzle and... green !!!

well, it took me about five minutes of brainstorming to figure out what to do in order to be able to fit the 250's injectors without excluding the case of using the green ones if I wanted to, so it took me about another ten minutes to get the job done...

first i removed the rubber gaskets that stabilize the green ones in place and opened up the holes by about 1mm



then ground up a bit of the fuel rail housing to get the proper angle for the longer injectors



and... there !! all set and done !!! could have been factory's setup all along...



by the way, the nozzles come a bit more upfront towards the head which is also good for performance...



minor details will be set on the bike when fitting them...
will show you how I managed to work them without the secondary butterflies and axle and keeping the FI light off...
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Old October 18th, 2014, 09:46 AM   #59
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there is a mod for the TB, which is popular for the 650r guys is the inlet air pressure sensor.they take a Y connector to have both left and right pressure, rather than a blind plug on one of the TB as you can see here
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Old October 18th, 2014, 11:15 AM   #60
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there is a mod for the TB, which is popular for the 650r guys is the inlet air pressure sensor.they take a Y connector to have both left and right pressure, rather than a blind plug on one of the TB as you can see here
interesting !! but what performance gains does that offer ? do you have any record of before and after difference ? if it makes a big difference, I could make that on those TBs too...
if it gives out say 1rwhp on a 650 that would be less than 0,5 on a 300 but it would be an easy way to gain some extra ponies...do you have any links or pics to show us Red ?
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Old October 19th, 2014, 11:30 AM   #61
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http://www.riderforums.com/ninja-650...eady-done.html

or you can look for IAP sensor mods, that's Intake Air Pressure

I dont think it would increass any HP but these real simple mods did male a difference. I dont dyno before and after but my butt dyno says mid rpm improves a bit
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Old October 19th, 2014, 03:01 PM   #62
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Thanks Red !! I will check it out !!
In the meantime today I fooled around a bit with stock air ducts, yamaha Fazer 600's, R6's, ZX-14, ZX-12, ninja 650 and others and finally decided to use the ZX-12R's... they needed a bit of a mod, but they fit on the TBs pretty nice...will need a bit of work on the airbox too... they are wider so they will help top end power, which is my only concern since I know for sure torque won't be an issue with the extra ccs...
no need for pics for that...unless someone is really interested but I guess it is quite simple for anyone to do...
also got the pieces I need for the exhaust midpipe and can I am building myself...pics of that when almost ready to put together...
tomorrow I am having the head milled just a bit to clean and flaten its mating surface...I hope to have the valves lapped and all put together by the end of the week so that I will be able to start measuring clearances for squish band etc...
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Old October 19th, 2014, 03:59 PM   #63
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@red26 by the way, the link you posted is about removing seconday butterflies after all...
but after digging up a bit I found the right one...

http://www.riderforums.com/ninja-650...-hose-mod.html

anyway bottom line is (as people who have done this already claim) the only improvement it makes on the 650r is "...resolves "throttle jerkiness" or hesitation in lower rpms and engine surging sensation at steady throttle below 4000rpm..."
so for one, the 300 TBs and engine in general do not have any jerkiness or hesitation, given that one has removed secondary butterflies... also throttle response is good even at stock settings and anyone into tuning will definetely use at least a piggyback system (which has fuel pump "acceleration" features that can alter throttle response any way the rider prefers...)
and two, I don't think anyone can ride a 300 below 4k rpm...or even 5k unless they are stuck in traffic... where usually throttle response is unimportant I think... anyway, I will skip that but anyone who feels like it can give it a try and tell us their impressions of it... are you going for it Red ?
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Old October 19th, 2014, 07:27 PM   #64
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I have done it long ago..didn't cost me any as I have the parts already lying around.
and it is also easy to undo it.
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Old October 19th, 2014, 07:28 PM   #65
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Thanks Red !! I will check it out !!
In the meantime today I fooled around a bit with stock air ducts, yamaha Fazer 600's, R6's, ZX-14, ZX-12, ninja 650 and others and finally decided to use the ZX-12R's... they needed a bit of a mod, but they fit on the TBs pretty nice...will need a bit of work on the airbox too... they are wider so they will help top end power, which is my only concern since I know for sure torque won't be an issue with the extra ccs...
no need for pics for that...unless someone is really interested but I guess it is quite simple for anyone to do...
also got the pieces I need for the exhaust midpipe and can I am building myself...pics of that when almost ready to put together...
tomorrow I am having the head milled just a bit to clean and flaten its mating surface...I hope to have the valves lapped and all put together by the end of the week so that I will be able to start measuring clearances for squish band etc...
yeah, would definitely love to see the ducts that you mention
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Old October 21st, 2014, 03:53 PM   #66
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Will do Red but no time at the moment... working on engine at last... had the head slightly milled to clean off and straighten surface, just a 0.05" (0.12mm) and will start lapping valves on seats the day after tomorrow...
In the meantime today I put the rotor and stator in place and 250's side cases.
I also put the piston without rings and to see where it stands and it appears thet I still have some work to make the 250 kit work properly on the 300 crank and rods since extra stroke makes piston go slightly above the block, so I have ordered for a custom 1mm (0.39") base gasket to rise the block...
the piston's crown is also being slightly modified -again- on squish band to get appropriate clearance and another gram of weight will be off hopefully...
so after that top ring to squish surface distance will be same as stock 300 piston...
here are some pics...



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Old October 23rd, 2014, 12:38 PM   #67
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Looking good..
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Old October 23rd, 2014, 03:11 PM   #68
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Looking good..
thank you Rassie... any thoughts, ideas or suggestions ?

by the way, any progress on your bike ? are you going for the swingarm swap after all ? I have done some digging and asking around and people say that it is most probable that old suzuki's aluminum ones from old rgv250 (not the "banana" type) and gsxr400 are an almost direct fit... however I need the bike moving to check out for myself...
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Old October 23rd, 2014, 03:51 PM   #69
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No man it looks great, no suggestions. Regarding the swingarm, have not looked into it any further but I am tempted to buy one of the braced one from Delkevic in Indonesia.

I just bought a ZX6R track bike. Once I have it in the garage I will look at the swingarm, see if it is doable.
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Old October 24th, 2014, 03:46 PM   #70
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Hope it is @Rassie... I've seen that put many times on Z-750s with minor modifications but I think it might be a little too big for the ninjette... fitting a 180 rear tyre might look nice but will be too much for it... and besides that even if having the pivot side narrowed, how will the front and rear sprocket align unless you use a special "spacer sprocket" ? (it is a sprocket that has a cup shape to keep the chain aligned for such mods, used mostly on hillclimb dirt bikes with I-4 engine transplants !!!)


It has been raining heavily for the last couple of days... Athens has flooded today and it is getting freaky in some places...I can do nothing but wait for the weather to calm a bit...
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Old October 24th, 2014, 09:37 PM   #71
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@micoulisninja, hello Nick I promised you some more infos and after today I had the chance to take a first look in the setup of my ECU, here we go:
- a real good tuning can not be done without remapping the ECU.
- the fuel is based on Alpha-N (TPS) and the measerements from the IAP
- the maps based on Alpha-N are different for the two cylinders!
-> So there could be a problem (by the way it must not, but...) when you're using other TB's since the IAP can or will change.
- opposite to what the manual says (Ignition 10 deg at 1300 rpm and 38 at 6000 rpm here for the country-version) the real values in the ecu are 15 deg BTDC at 1300 rpm and 41 deg starting at 4000 rpm and since the EU-Version got 2 deg above that (from manual) they even could be higher. So my setup for the ignition goes up to 46 degrees (with no pings and a very good running engine - by the way 46 degrees...).
Up to 5000 rpm the ignition is finetuned in small steps and from there it's taking bigger ones.
The values for the ignition are going up to 14000 rpm only, so every rpm above is anything in the nirvana...
Also the rpm-limiter is set to 13369 rpm, so you could rev higher but the ECU doesn't assist you anymore (or how should I say this?)...
So reving the Ninja higher than at least 13369 rpm doesn't make any sence unless you remap the ECU (what also states that dynos which show any value above that rpm are worth the word with 'c').
At least from what I see I'm pretty sure that this could be very common for all the Ninjette's out there (including the 300's) which are based on Fuel-Injection, just with different values for each country.

The requirements in tuning an electronical system are quite different to the mechanical systems (like carburetors) and so it's easier to understand that the Scuderia Platini has changed to their own ECU-System.
When I get my interface then I'll lower my ignintion to more civil values in the low range and then start calculating the values for fuel (what at least will take some time with many tests).

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Old October 25th, 2014, 04:52 AM   #72
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@micoulisninja, hello Nick I promised you some more infos and after today I had the chance to take a first look in the setup of my ECU, here we go:
- a real good tuning can not be done without remapping the ECU.
- the fuel is based on Alpha-N (TPS) and the measerements from the IAP
- the maps based on Alpha-N are different for the two cylinders!
-> So there could be a problem (by the way it must not, but...) when you're using other TB's since the IAP can or will change.
- opposite to what the manual says (Ignition 10 deg at 1300 rpm and 38 at 6000 rpm here for the country-version) the real values in the ecu are 15 deg BTDC at 1300 rpm and 41 deg starting at 4000 rpm and since the EU-Version got 2 deg above that (from manual) they even could be higher. So my setup for the ignition goes up to 46 degrees (with no pings and a very good running engine - by the way 46 degrees...).
Up to 5000 rpm the ignition is finetuned in small steps and from there it's taking bigger ones.
The values for the ignition are going up to 14000 rpm only, so every rpm above is anything in the nirvana...
Also the rpm-limiter is set to 13369 rpm, so you could rev higher but the ECU doesn't assist you anymore (or how should I say this?)...
So reving the Ninja higher than at least 13369 rpm doesn't make any sence unless you remap the ECU (what also states that dynos which show any value above that rpm are worth the word with 'c').
At least from what I see I'm pretty sure that this could be very common for all the Ninjette's out there (including the 300's) which are based on Fuel-Injection, just with different values for each country.

The requirements in tuning an electronical system are quite different to the mechanical systems (like carburetors) and so it's easier to understand that the Scuderia Platini has changed to their own ECU-System.
When I get my interface then I'll lower my ignintion to more civil values in the low range and then start calculating the values for fuel (what at least will take some time with many tests).
I am a bit confused about all that you describe here...
-I will be using the 250's TPS along with the injectors, IAP etc and ECU...
what I cannot understand for one is why the maps are different for each cylinder and by how much ? do you see a reason behind that factory choice ?
-The values I have set the crank sensor to are 2-3 degrees above stock (European version) so is it 17 at idle and 43 @4000 on or what ?
And what values do you suggest I can stick to for optimum performance on the 300 engine without danger of damaging it ?
-My ECU had been hacked by a car specialist about 3 years ago and has been measured by 2 different dynos having the rpm limiter set at 14348rpm(15100 on tacho)...however he did not mess with ignition advance values (he claimed that resetting the limiter had been difficult to do and had asked me if I wanted him to set the advance timing but he would have charged me a lot more so I dropped it...) and I am wondering now what those values might be in that range....also what fuel values... I have been told that the signal being transferred when overreving is the signal of that of the last "in-map" setting(both for fuel and advance timing)... which in turn means that the value for the 13369 rpm should remain unchanged as a base signal up to whatever rpm the engine revs... is that valid or not ?
More questions... if I have him set my fuel, advance timing and rev limiter on the 250 ECU what values should I be asking for on the 300 engine ?
My PC V has values up to 13.5k and I was thinking of operating the engine up to 13.7k max...
I am grateful you shared all that precious info, however it has confused and troubled me a lot... I hope you can help some more by having some answer to my queries...
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Old October 25th, 2014, 06:02 AM   #73
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I am a bit confused about all that you describe here...
-I will be using the 250's TPS along with the injectors, IAP etc and ECU...
what I cannot understand for one is why the maps are different for each cylinder and by how much ? do you see a reason behind that factory choice ?
-The values I have set the crank sensor to are 2-3 degrees above stock (European version) so is it 17 at idle and 43 @4000 on or what ?
And what values do you suggest I can stick to for optimum performance on the 300 engine without danger of damaging it ?
-My ECU had been hacked by a car specialist about 3 years ago and has been measured by 2 different dynos having the rpm limiter set at 14348rpm(15100 on tacho)...however he did not mess with ignition advance values (he claimed that resetting the limiter had been difficult to do and had asked me if I wanted him to set the advance timing but he would have charged me a lot more so I dropped it...) and I am wondering now what those values might be in that range....also what fuel values... I have been told that the signal being transferred when overreving is the signal of that of the last "in-map" setting(both for fuel and advance timing)... which in turn means that the value for the 13369 rpm should remain unchanged as a base signal up to whatever rpm the engine revs... is that valid or not ?
More questions... if I have him set my fuel, advance timing and rev limiter on the 250 ECU what values should I be asking for on the 300 engine ?
My PC V has values up to 13.5k and I was thinking of operating the engine up to 13.7k max...
I am grateful you shared all that precious info, however it has confused and troubled me a lot... I hope you can help some more by having some answer to my queries...
Hello Nick, it wasn't my idea to make you confused - sorry about that.
I'd only wanted to inform you about what I've seen to give you some inside and help for your project.
So if your ECU is set up to a higher rpm-limit forget what I said about that point.
When you've changed the TPS you MUST set it up new, because when the TPS is misaligned forget about your motor-management since the TPS and RPM is responsible for the Alpha-N values and there your fuel-mixture is coming from.
Your ignition should be no problem, when mine is running good even if higher values.
You ask about a value for this, so like I said before, ignition-setup MUST be done on a test-bench and here comes the important point: at least after the mechanical work is done your engine must be setup on a test-bench for the greatest success in power-output. But when I talk about a test-bench here, this means equipment that you find in the factory or the big professional tuner have this, like the Racing-Teams.
About the value, where is none, when overreving I am not sure what value is valid in this moment, but this you could see with the real test-equipment. And do be sure, every rev-range you use must have a value set.
If you are able to contact the guy who did the work for you last time, go and contact him again to set the values in the ECU for the new conditions.
If it would be me, then I still would use the values from the 250 since your engine is no 300, it is still a 250 based engine with modifications.
And remember the setup from the 300 is very high emissions orientated, so for real good or high power output this all would not be so useful to look there.
Like I said before, with an FI-System you must do much more than with the easy changes needed when you have carbs and saying this, with what you're doing you'd already moved ahead from pure hobby tuning.
Good luck
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Old October 25th, 2014, 03:11 PM   #74
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Hello Nick, it wasn't my idea to make you confused - sorry about that.
I'd only wanted to inform you about what I've seen to give you some inside and help for your project.
So if your ECU is set up to a higher rpm-limit forget what I said about that point.
When you've changed the TPS you MUST set it up new, because when the TPS is misaligned forget about your motor-management since the TPS and RPM is responsible for the Alpha-N values and there your fuel-mixture is coming from.
Your ignition should be no problem, when mine is running good even if higher values.
You ask about a value for this, so like I said before, ignition-setup MUST be done on a test-bench and here comes the important point: at least after the mechanical work is done your engine must be setup on a test-bench for the greatest success in power-output. But when I talk about a test-bench here, this means equipment that you find in the factory or the big professional tuner have this, like the Racing-Teams.
About the value, where is none, when overreving I am not sure what value is valid in this moment, but this you could see with the real test-equipment. And do be sure, every rev-range you use must have a value set.
If you are able to contact the guy who did the work for you last time, go and contact him again to set the values in the ECU for the new conditions.
If it would be me, then I still would use the values from the 250 since your engine is no 300, it is still a 250 based engine with modifications.
And remember the setup from the 300 is very high emissions orientated, so for real good or high power output this all would not be so useful to look there.
Like I said before, with an FI-System you must do much more than with the easy changes needed when you have carbs and saying this, with what you're doing you'd already moved ahead from pure hobby tuning.
Good luck
Roland I didn't mean you confused me -on the contrary- you have been -as always- very helpful and informative !! And I am very grateful to you for that !
It is the fact that I had tuned the previous engine without having knowledge of any of that and it is by pure luck it hadn't blown by some omission or bad setting since I did it by using only one fuel map for both cylinders and my lambda sensor was bolted onto the midpipe right after the link...
I became so anxious that I did contact the tuner and he answered me that
-The ECU indeed keeps the last values set by the manufacturer for the overreving range...
-The TPS is no trouble since it is almost identical on 250 and 300 in terms of voltage and resistance so values will not be greatly affected anyway...
-It would be ideal to fine tune the values through the ECU but I can get close enough with the PC V...
-In order to get optimum fuel values I should set them by the auto tune and dyno lambda sensor on each primary separetely to set each cylinder accordingly (which I will)...hopefully the PC V provides the possibilty to have different fuel map settings for each cylinder...
-In order to set optimum ignition timing values I will use a bolt-on (to the side case) sensor that "reads" degrees of advance throughout the rev range and choose a setting for the crank sensor as close to ideal as possible since my PC V is the early model without advance timing settings...
-Dyno will be used to help fine tune original settings and auto tune values will be in comparison to find a best possible setting...
I think this is the best I can do with the means available here... any other suggestions or thoughts on that ?

P.s. What do you mean by saying that my engine is not a 300 but a modified 250 ? Are you saying so because I am using the 250's wiring and ECU ?
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Old October 25th, 2014, 06:41 PM   #75
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@micoulisninja - Quote: "Are you saying so because I am using the 250's wiring and ECU ?"
Yes Nick, that was what I meant with my Deutsch-English way to think and saying but I see you're clever enough to even understand this - European people...
The 300 engine at least is in principle the same like the 250 and the bigger difference makes the 'center of command' what means the motor-management and there you still use the 250's 'brain'.
By the way I guess the easiest way with an US, CA or CO Ninja 300 to have the missing 3 hp more is to use the WVTA-ECU, with disabling the O2-Sensor.
Good to read that you'd contact the Tuner and so I'm sure everything will work out fine.
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Old October 26th, 2014, 09:53 AM   #76
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@micoulisninja - Quote: "Are you saying so because I am using the 250's wiring and ECU ?"
Yes Nick, that was what I meant with my Deutsch-English way to think and saying but I see you're clever enough to even understand this - European people...
The 300 engine at least is in principle the same like the 250 and the bigger difference makes the 'center of command' what means the motor-management and there you still use the 250's 'brain'.
By the way I guess the easiest way with an US, CA or CO Ninja 300 to have the missing 3 hp more is to use the WVTA-ECU, with disabling the O2-Sensor.
Good to read that you'd contact the Tuner and so I'm sure everything will work out fine.
Roland, I am honoured that a man of your standing adresses me as "clever".
However, the fact is that even if I might seem clever enough to understand what you are saying, I am striving to keep up with the thousands of rpm your brain is spinning above mine, in order to be able to "decode" the deepest meanings of what is most probably self-evident to you because of your deep knowledge and vast automotive engineering experience...
No need to mention your English is pretty good, perhaps better than mine...sometimes I have a word in the tip of my "tongue" (or should I say finger since we are typing...) and I just can't figure it, I realise I am getting rusty...

Back to topic... weather is getting better but this weekend is being followed by a national anniversary and it is practically impossible to work on the engine before Wednesday...
Will update when there is some progress...
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Old October 29th, 2014, 03:29 PM   #77
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Managed to put the head together today...final finishing and lapping valves onto their seats, new oil seals etc... shims are original that came with the engine when bought, will check and swap when head is in place and cams bolted on...
Next step is putting together with old gaskets and measuring clerances...
A couple of pics...



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Old October 30th, 2014, 05:38 AM   #78
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No time to work on the engine today so at least I drilled the fuel pump's housing to fit on my tank and here it is in place at last... Looks as if it could have been stock all along !!

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Old November 4th, 2014, 12:23 PM   #79
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After some delay, today I put the engine together with old gaskets to measure squish band and static valve to piston clearence and I managed to get it well in the "safe" range of 1,2mm for squish (almost half inch) and about 3mm for valves... will measure again of course after all shimming and cam timing is done...



that 190+rwhp immensly modded '08 ZX-10R in the background has guaranted to donate a few to my engine just by being photographed along...

Now I am checking valve clearance to find out that evey single one needs reshimming... I am lucky to have all necessary ones...
so next is putting on piston rings, bolting it up with kit gasket and timing cams...
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Old November 6th, 2014, 12:40 PM   #80
bruce71198
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Name: bruce
Location: northern illinois
Join Date: Jan 2012

Motorcycle(s): Race bikes:08 Ninja 250,11 R6,16 ZX6,SV650.3 HD-1947,2-2003,2010. 1946 Indian and a lot of dirt bikes.2

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Quote:
Originally Posted by micoulisninja View Post
After some delay, today I put the engine together with old gaskets to measure squish band and static valve to piston clearence and I managed to get it well in the "safe" range of 1,2mm for squish (almost half inch) and about 3mm for valves... will measure again of course after all shimming and cam timing is done...



that 190+rwhp immensly modded '08 ZX-10R in the background has guaranted to donate a few to my engine just by being photographed along...

Now I am checking valve clearance to find out that evey single one needs reshimming... I am lucky to have all necessary ones...
so next is putting on piston rings, bolting it up with kit gasket and timing cams...
1.2mm or 12mm? Either way sounds eccessive. As does 3mm at the valves.
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