October 14th, 2018, 02:49 PM | #1 |
gokartmozart
Name: randy
Location: land of corrupt govt-illinois
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 250 ninja ,it's realy a ninja motor on a scratch built alum chassis (avatar is my old kart) Posts: 22
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race harness / minimumized wiring
I've hoping to get in touch with others who have built race harnesses, or have an interest to use these for their bikes or like my case on a gokart. What I had in mind was a harness that only has the cranking circuit, ignition, charging, and cooling circuit. Detailed diagrams or any other helpful tips welcome. Feel free to pick what's left of my brain also. I've got my wiring done , but not sure if it's correct, a pesky gray wire, the brown and white wire from the reg/rec or the brown/black on the brain box ?? all Q & A welcome... here's my wiring diagram
DSC02412.jpg
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October 21st, 2018, 09:33 AM | #2 |
EX500 full of EX250 parts
Name: Bill
Location: Grand Rapids-ish, MI
Join Date: Jul 2012 Motorcycle(s): '18 Ninja 400 • '09 Ninja 500R (selling) • '98 VFR800 (project) • '85 Vulcan VN700 (sold) Posts: A lot.
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MOTM - Aug '15
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If you're using a different ignition switch, you can make things a little simpler by using the brown/black at the igniter to feed the 100Ω resistor/gray wire into the igniter's other pin (it doesn't have to run all the way to your ignition switch, since Br/Bk is already switched with the ignition).
The OEM "SH" R/R uses the brown wire to sense voltage in the system. The newer "FH" units get that off the main power wire. If you spend a few bucks to upgrade the R/R, you can eliminate the brown wire too (in addition to the standard upgrade benefits of more efficient and consistent output). The FH016 off an '07-'08 ZX6R has wire pigtails so you can install whatever connectors you want, rather than the molded Furukawa connectors on most other FH models. The white wire from the R/R doesn't need to go to the ignition switch. It may just be convenient for you to connect there, and that inherently routes it through the 30A main fuse. But you can wire it directly to the battery (with another fuse just to be safe). Or you could wire it directly to the main fuse connection on the starter solenoid. Same thing as now really, just the other end of that wire. The current fan setup mimics the OEM wiring. The fan will run any time the sensor is hot enough, regardless of the position of the ignition switch. I wouldn't expect it to be an issue in any normal situation, but someone could drain your battery by holding a lighter on the sensor or something stupid like that. Some years of the EX500 had the fan circuit powered by the switched brown wire, so the fan will only run when the ignition is turned on. You may consider making this a switched circuit as well, rather than always-on. The stock junction box has a "starter circuit relay" in it as well. The starter button flips the relay, which triggers the "starter relay" (solenoid) that actually powers the starter motor. I'm not sure how much the solenoid actually draws, but make sure your ignition switch can handle it if you're not using a relay.
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October 21st, 2018, 12:23 PM | #3 |
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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Start-button switch won't be able to handle solenoid by itself. Definitely needs starter-circuit relay. For minimizing weight on race-bike, I use 24g wire between start-button switch and starter-circuit relay. Which I place close to starter and power solenoid with 16g wire. Factory fat wire for starter itself.
Also don't use frame for ground, not reliable due to corrosion over time. Note that '94+ bikes have different wiring than pre-'94. Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; October 24th, 2018 at 10:07 AM. |
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October 23rd, 2018, 06:33 PM | #4 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Kyle
Location: Kansas city
Join Date: Apr 2014 Motorcycle(s): 02 Aprilia RS70 97 Ninja 250 Posts: 53
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Same idea... Just trying to get it to crank
I've been working on this 96 250 for awhile and figured it was time to step up to real clip ons and controls.
I've scoured the forums and without a straight-forward guide I'm left kind of guessing here. None of those posts were solved so here goes nothing... Ideally I would like the most simple wiring as well, but out of frustration have sufficed with just what I have. With my current wiring I can get the bike to turn on (radiator fan starts running) but it won't crank when I push the yellow button. Battery is good, safety switches isolated, and jumped the starter and it will crank. I ordered a new start/stop switch off Amazon to mount to the handlebar, but there's no diagram with it. Red button wires: blue, white, green Yellow Button wires: Brown, yellow From the harness I have IGNITION Brown connected to Grey with a 100 ohm resistor. The White wire is connected to White/Black. I connected these to two of the three wires for the red button, which powers the bike ON when pressed. EDIT: The wire from the push button only works when connected to the brown wire, not the grey wire after the resistor, even though BROWN and GREY are connected via resistor is this an issue? I traced the RED/BLACK wires from the stock RH control and wired these each to the yellow button's wires. (PHOTOS) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1K6...kU4_XHdGChBq7h https://drive.google.com/open?id=1OM...NkHz74p_YsWAes Maybe I'm missing something? Please help! Sidenote: If someone makes a simple diagram I'll do a write up AND KEEP THE PHOTOS ONLINE FOR THE COMMUNITY! |
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October 24th, 2018, 03:34 AM | #5 |
EX500 full of EX250 parts
Name: Bill
Location: Grand Rapids-ish, MI
Join Date: Jul 2012 Motorcycle(s): '18 Ninja 400 • '09 Ninja 500R (selling) • '98 VFR800 (project) • '85 Vulcan VN700 (sold) Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 1
MOTM - Aug '15
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Your description of your switch and wiring aren't clear. I don't know what the different wires on the switch do, or exactly what wires you have connected together.
The stock starter button is fed power on the red wire, which comes from the kill switch and also feeds the coils. When you press the button, the black/red wire powers the starter circuit relay in the junction box. You should just need to wire up the red and black/red to your yellow button for starting. At the ignition switch, power comes in on the white wire from the main fuse. When you turn the key On, the white wire is connected to the brown wire to power the accessory circuits, and to the gray resistor wire as a security feature for the igniter. The circuits for the running lights and turn signals also run through the OEM switch, for the Park feature. When On, the red/blue from the fusebox is bridged to the red wire for the running lights. In Park, the hot white wire is bridged directly to the red wire. In both positions, the white/black (which is just a fork off the white wire) is bridged to the white/green to power the turn signals. So you just need to use the white wire as power in, and run power out to the brown and gray wires. If there's not a Park function, you'll want to bridge the red/blue and red wires together so that the running lights are permanently connected to the TAIL fuse, and you'll want to connect the white/green turn signal wire to switched power (the brown wire or just the switched output of the ignition switch).
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October 24th, 2018, 10:15 AM | #6 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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Quote:
Also this is the only wiring diagram needed. Don't know why everyone wants to re-invent wheel. Make sure YOUR circuits match up to that diagram and everything will work perfectly. Sure, leave out lights and whatnot that you don't want. But what you actually have on bike, MUST match that diagram. No need to re-design Kawasaki's engineering, they hired A LOT more people with A LOT more engineering experience than you to design these circuits. Don't try to 2nd-guess or outdo them. It won't work... as you've found out. |
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October 24th, 2018, 11:21 AM | #7 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Kyle
Location: Kansas city
Join Date: Apr 2014 Motorcycle(s): 02 Aprilia RS70 97 Ninja 250 Posts: 53
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Thanks for the responses so fast!
I had the connections soldered at first, because I thought I had the idea together, but it still didn't start so I undid them and twisted just to check things out. When the connections are sorted out and I get it to crank over I'm definitely soldering all the connections and heat shrinking them. I have attached a diagram of what I have connected thus far. I tested for continuity in the switch with the three pole on/off in the diagram and it came out reading what I thought. Also: since this is a race bike I've negated the safety switches except for the neutral switch. I cut the connector at the left-hand switch and wired the yellow green with the green together, this should bypass the safety switch or does the yellow green need to ground out? |
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October 24th, 2018, 12:15 PM | #8 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
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Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): CB125T CBR250R-MC19 CBR250RR-MC22 NSR350R-MC21 VF500F CBR600RR SFV650 VFR750F R1M ST1300PA Valkyrie-F6C Posts: A lot.
MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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Not enough useful info to troubleshoot. Need to show interlock-switches and their states (how did you bypass?). Also show starter, starter-solenoid, starter-circuit-relay as well as start-switch. Having diagram is good start, but it must match exactly circuits you have on your bike, down to every wire-colour, wire-connector, switch, etc. Show every twisted-together junction, every soldered junction, colour of wires before & after. Once accurate diagram is created, then we can devise tests between various endpoints to troubleshoot.
Please review this thread on troubleshooting no-start condition. There are no short-cuts. Need to measure voltages and ground status at every junction between battery and starter. Where the voltage disappears is your problem spot. https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=318707 At this point, we have no idea if cause of no-start is problem with ground-circuits or power-circuits (could be both, or multiple issues on each for all we know). Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; October 24th, 2018 at 01:52 PM. |
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October 25th, 2018, 06:34 PM | #9 |
gokartmozart
Name: randy
Location: land of corrupt govt-illinois
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 250 ninja ,it's realy a ninja motor on a scratch built alum chassis (avatar is my old kart) Posts: 22
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Was able to follow most of what you were saying on trouble shooting , but I am not using any h-bar or safety switches .
should I simply ground the g/bk @ the igniter (safety switch wire ?) can the gray 100 ohm connect to br/bk @ igniter ? ... does it matter if gray is before or after the 10A fuse ? is white on reg/rec connected to batt 12V+ (always hot ...before "on" switch) brown @ reg/rec , is that 12v+ after the "on" switch ? not using oem fuse box , each circuit has inline fuse . refer to diagram in first post how low can battery voltage be , before ignition will fail to operate
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October 25th, 2018, 11:16 PM | #10 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: AKA JacRyann
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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We should split this into two threads. gokartmozart is using new-gen wiring and dukeswift is using late pre-gen wiring!
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October 25th, 2018, 11:46 PM | #11 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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Quote:
sure can the gray 100 ohm connect to br/bk @ igniter ? ... does it matter if gray is before or after the 10A fuse ? tap into wire between igniter and 10a fuse is white on reg/rec connected to batt 12V+ (always hot ...before "on" switch) yup, after 30a main fuse. brown @ reg/rec , is that 12v+ after the "on" switch ? yup not using oem fuse box , each circuit has inline fuse . refer to diagram in first post You need fuse for power-lines to ignition-coils. Factory wiring takes power from BR wire leaving ignition-switch (like you have), and goes through fuse#3, then start/stop switch, then ignition-coils. how low can battery voltage be , before ignition will fail to operate Minimum 10v during cranking. |
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October 26th, 2018, 02:53 PM | #12 | |
gokartmozart
Name: randy
Location: land of corrupt govt-illinois
Join Date: Nov 2015 Motorcycle(s): 250 ninja ,it's realy a ninja motor on a scratch built alum chassis (avatar is my old kart) Posts: 22
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Quote:
thanks for answering my Q's
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December 9th, 2019, 08:36 AM | #13 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Kyle
Location: Kansas city
Join Date: Apr 2014 Motorcycle(s): 02 Aprilia RS70 97 Ninja 250 Posts: 53
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Here again
Well back on the never ending project... I ordered a used wiring harness from eBay and set out to start fresh and take out everything I don't need for the race bike. Can anyone help me verify this will work? I've traced everything in the diagrams and all has matched up with my harness and locations.
One of my main concerns is: am I correct in grounding all the safety switches at the junction box? |
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December 9th, 2019, 12:24 PM | #14 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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Yes, all interlock switches go through each other and end up grounding starter-relay's activation-coil's ground leg. With that grounded, all you need is +12v on other side of relay's coil to trigger it to run starter-solenoid.
Personally I would replace connectors with Weatherpak or similar sealed units to avoid corrosion. |
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December 9th, 2019, 02:19 PM | #15 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Kyle
Location: Kansas city
Join Date: Apr 2014 Motorcycle(s): 02 Aprilia RS70 97 Ninja 250 Posts: 53
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Okay I'm starting to get confused again.
So as long as I keep the junction box the Yellow/Red wire connects all the grounded safety switch wires, and proceeds to the starter solenoid where it receives +12V. So Ground -> Safety switches -> Junction Box -> Yellow/Red -> Rectifier -> 12v I'm not really expecting to ride this in the rain for racing, but after I mock the harness under the seat pan I've made I plan on 3D printing an enclosure for the whole mess. Well, except for the Regulator/Rectifier as I think that needs some airflow. |
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December 10th, 2019, 07:31 PM | #16 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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Don’t connect +12v power wire to ground of safety switches. This will be bad in epic catastrophic apocalyptic proportions! You’ll find foil in your microwave, your kids will instantly develop crooked teeth and need braces. Your wife will gain 20-lbs mysteriously. Don’t do it!!!
1. Ground safety switches to chassis ground. Connect with ring-terminal to frame. Or connect to black/yellow wire somewhere. 2. INPUT to starter-relay to trigger it is +12v from start button. This is black-red wire 3. Other side of starter-relay is +12v OUTPUT. This is yellow-red wire that goes to stater solenoid. Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; December 11th, 2019 at 11:01 AM. |
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December 11th, 2019, 10:52 AM | #17 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: Kyle
Location: Kansas city
Join Date: Apr 2014 Motorcycle(s): 02 Aprilia RS70 97 Ninja 250 Posts: 53
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Quote:
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December 11th, 2019, 01:09 PM | #18 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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Don't get switch and relay mixed up, they are not same thing. Switch is simple with an input and an output. Relay has FOUR terminals, two inputs and two outputs. Don't get inputs & outputs mixed up OR connected. DO NOT connect input power directly to ground (greens). It will just blow up your battery, your fuses and start-switch. Take look at start-relay in junction-box:
Let's go over FOUR connections for start-relay: 1. GROUND, yes tie all safety switch grounds together and connect to real GROUND. Such as chassis-ground on bike, or black/yellow wire that's connected to ground. TEST this connection with voltmeter and measure how much resistance (ohms) you have to frame and battery-negative terminal. 2. +12v INPUT to COIL of relay. This activates relay and connects switch on other 2 terminals of relay. This is lower black wire that gets +12v from black/red wire coming from start-switch. It's normally un-powered UNTIL you push start-button. 3. +12 INPUT to relay SWITCH. This is black wire and shares +12v INPUT from black/red wire from start-switch. Again, this is normally un-powered UNTIL you push start-button 4. +12 OUTPUT from relay SWITCH. +12v power coming from black/red start-switch is then directed to yellow/red OUTPUT wire from junction box going to starter-solenoid which then powers starter. To test this, you measure for +12v starting from battery. Basically trace flow of electricity to each component that needs it. 1. measure power at positive-terminal of battery. What is this voltage? 2. measure power leaving battery going INTO ignition switch at white wire. What is this voltage? 3. measure power leaving ignition switch at brown wire. What is this voltage? 4. measure power entering junction box at brown wire. What is this voltage? 5. measure power leaving junction box at red/green wire. What is this voltage? 6. measure power entering right-hand controls at red/green wire. What is this voltage? 7a. with start/stop switch ON, measure power leaving right-hand controls on red wire. What is this voltage? 7b. with start/stop switch ON, measure power at red-wire at each ignition-coil terminal. What is this voltage? 8. with start/top switch ON, measure power at red/green wire entering ignition-module. What is this voltage? 9. with start/top switch ON, measure power at grey wire entering ignition-moduleWhat is this voltage? 10. with start/top switch ON, start-button PUSHED, measure power leaving right-hand controls on black/red wire. What is this voltage? 11. with start/top switch ON, start-button PUSHED, measure power entering junction-box at black/red wire. What is this voltage? 12. with start/top switch ON, start-button PUSHED, measure power leaving junction-box at yellow/red wire. What is this voltage? 13. with start/top switch ON, start-button PUSHED, measure power entering starter-solenoid at yellow/red wire. What is this voltage? This is all very simple, it's just like water flowing through garden hose to your sprinklers. Where +12v power stops, shows there's a problem upstream. Just like a clog in your garden hose. So take all those 14 measurements and post them here and your problem will jump out and be obvious like lion chewing on your leg. Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; December 11th, 2019 at 04:55 PM. |
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December 11th, 2019, 01:14 PM | #19 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
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Also, pull each and every fuse and measure resistance across legs. If I had penny for every time someone said, "fuse looks ok"...
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December 11th, 2019, 01:28 PM | #20 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Kyle
Location: Kansas city
Join Date: Apr 2014 Motorcycle(s): 02 Aprilia RS70 97 Ninja 250 Posts: 53
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Thank you SO much Danno for breaking this down. I understand the process and will report back when I've tested everything as you've outlined!
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