you want a 400, you get a 400

[sixstring]

Originally Posted by 2WheelGuy

While Kawasaki has built those bikes before I think the problem lies in cost. Manufacturing costs for a full-on inline four sportbike are pretty much the same for a 250, 400 or 600.

Well cost is definitely an issue. But even if the zx4 and zx6 cost around the same, I'd still pick the zx4 because I've only had around 9000 km on two wheels, I'm under 25 and I don't know what to do with 120 hp.

Originally Posted by 2WheelGuy

I come from the standpoint that if they made a "Cool" small displacement bike, it might finally end the squid thing of newbies starting off on a 1000cc rocket and give us guys that prefer the small displacement bikes a real twisty-eating fun machine.

I think your absolutely right. I mean isn't the aggressive styling and ergos the ONLY reason why ANYONE would choose a Hyosung GT250 over the Kawasaki EX250? I mean the Hyosung is heavier, has a slower top end, has inferior build quality, and poor aftermarket support.... So that means alot of people are sold on the styling alone. Kawasaki TAKE NOTES!!

If Hyosung had stuck an inline four in that bike instead of a v-twin I would have been ALL OVER it.... build quality be damned!

[Talonne]

Originally Posted by bdavison

You can lie and say you want the bike with "upright" riding position, but we all know what papers you'd be signing at the stealership.

The papers for the bike with the upright position. :P Surely not everyone wants to be doing push-ups on their bike?

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by Talonne

The papers for the bike with the upright position. :P Surely not everyone wants to be doing push-ups on their bike?

I do crunches while riding

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by bdavison

I come from the standpoint that if they made a "Cool" small displacement bike, it might finally end the squid thing of newbies starting off on a 1000cc rocket and give us guys that prefer the small displacement bikes a real twisty-eating fun machine.

And by cool, I mean supersport ergos, looks, weight and suspension.

Seriously...if you could get a small displacement kawasaki that had the looks, suspension, and ergos of a Aprilla 250RS or Ducati 918 over a 650R clone....which would you go for?

You can lie and say you want the bike with "upright" riding position, but we all know what papers you'd be signing at the stealership.

Squid newbies have a choice already to not get a liter bike. Don't think offering a small displacement supersport is really going to change that.

It would be a lie for ME to say I want a bike with an upright sitting position. I never would have bought a zx6r if this was true. But if I was buying my son, daughter, wife, etc. their first bike, I would not want one with such an aggressive riding style. I would want one that was easier and more comfortable to ride. Since this is Kawi's target market for the 250r, it is probably the reason why the 250r is a lot more upright than my bike.

I do think there is a small market for such a bike though. But I don't think its big enough for them to either walk away from a lot of the current market size, or big enough to support such a mass produced bike.

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by sixstring

I think your absolutely right. I mean isn't the aggressive styling and ergos the ONLY reason why ANYONE would choose a Hyosung GT250 over the Kawasaki EX250? I mean the Hyosung is heavier, has a slower top end, has inferior build quality, and poor aftermarket support.... So that means alot of people are sold on the styling alone. Kawasaki TAKE NOTES!!

If Hyosung had stuck an inline four in that bike instead of a v-twin I would have been ALL OVER it.... build quality be damned!

You do realize that Hyosung does not have near the reach of Kawasaki. If anyone should be taking notes on how to sell more bikes it should be them from Kawasaki. Don't you think?

[sixstring]

Originally Posted by revstriker

You do realize that Hyosung does not have near the reach of Kawasaki. If anyone should be taking notes on how to sell more bikes it should be them from Kawasaki. Don't you think?

Maybe, but Hyosung has certainly grown alot more than Kawasaki and there's clearly a reason for that DESPITE all the quibbles their GTs have. So clearly theres something to be learned there no?

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by sixstring

Maybe, but Hyosung has certainly grown alot more than Kawasaki and there's clearly a reason for that DESPITE all the quibbles their GTs have. So clearly theres something to be learned there no?

No doubt that a company could learn something from Hyosung. But the growth (if you want to call it that since their sales have declined over the last 2 years) of this company come in large part from them expanding to new markets. I don't think it's a fair comparison to Kawasaki. And of course, there is still a big question mark whether they will be successful in these new markets, especially in the USA.

Just taking a quick look at their financials, I would say they've got a ways to go before they are successful. Their total revenue last year was $96 million(worldwide). With a high cost of goods sold, they ended up finishing the year with a net earnings loss of over $7 million.

[bdavison]

Just look at the ninja 250R pre-gen....and 08 and later. Did anyone catch the massive chaos at dealerships when the new design hit the stores. It was crazy. I was trying to get one when they first came out, and they disappeared off the showroom floor so fast I couldnt even get my name on one. I ended up having to wait a year before I could get one.

When these bikes were released, it was really hard to find one anywhere that wasnt spoken for already. If all the beginners wanted was a upright seating position...certainly they would have picked up the much cheaper already available 250's.....no...they wanted the sportier, performance tweaked, sportbike'esc 08 model.

If the ergos of the 250R were full on supersport ergos, they still would have sold like hotcakes, and probably would still be sold out. The new ergos and styling was what made everybody want one. Even the people with the pre-gens were selling them off for nickels to go get the new one.

Mark my words.....when you see a high quality 250-400cc bike from Kawasaki, Yamaha, Honda, or Suzuki enter the US in full supersport package, it will probably rival the Honda Cub as hottest selling bike ever.

[sixstring]

Originally Posted by revstriker

No doubt that a company could learn something from Hyosung. But the growth (if you want to call it that since their sales have declined over the last 2 years) of this company come in large part from them expanding to new markets. I don't think it's a fair comparison to Kawasaki. And of course, there is still a big question mark whether they will be successful in these new markets, especially in the USA.

Just taking a quick look at their financials, I would say they've got a ways to go before they are successful. Their total revenue last year was $96 million(worldwide). With a high cost of goods sold, they ended up finishing the year with a net earnings loss of over $7 million.

I have no insight into the sales figures of any motorcycle manufacturer. So what I was referring to growth, I guess I wanted to point out the fact that more and more people are buying into and accepting the brand. Whenever Hyosung gets mentioned on forums, the flamers always come storming in but the number of people defending the brand is getting larger (marginally). And the number of people who vote with their dollars for Hyosung, especially the gt250 will continue to grow because despite its problems, it oozes sportiness that no other manufacturer offers on lower ccs in North America.

[Xoulrath]

Originally Posted by bdavison

Mark my words.....when you see a high quality 250-400cc bike from Kawasaki, Yamaha, Honda, or Suzuki enter the US in full supersport package, it will probably rival the Honda Cub as hottest selling bike ever.

I agree. I purchased my 250 over the Ninja 500 and the GS500F despite knowing I was going to take a small performance penalty due to my weight. I wanted the bigger bike, but the best package was the 250R. I can't tell you how many times I cursed Kawasaki for not giving the 500R the modern treatment.

The Ninja 500 didn't have the look I wanted and the Zook 500 didn't have the riding position I was looking for. Granted, the 250 isn't true supersport, but it's closer than the tubular handlebar set-up the GS offers. So, despite giving up some power to those bigger bikes at a very similar cost, I chose the 250R. It was the best bike of the ones I was willing to purchase as my first street bike. If a 400 SS was offered, it would have been my first bike. I am not interested in a standard bike dressed in fairings (which the 250R is more or less and the 400R definitely is).

I think a lot of people would love to see a 400cc SS bike. Let's look at the benefits of a 400cc supersport:

1) Lower buy-in cost: The cost savings for purchasing the bike vs. a 600cc supersport could be substantial. The price difference between the ZX-6R and ZX-10R is $2,500. If this held true for the difference between the ZX-4R and ZX-6R, then we would be looking at $8,000. I think that is a damn good price for a true 400cc supersport. I suppose it could be slightly higher or lower, but either way, I believe the performance would be a great value.

2) Lower insurance: While some companies (like State Farm) base their rates solely on displacement, other companies have different criteria and getting true supersport performance for close to 250R insurance costs could be a reality with a 400cc bike.

3) Fuel economy: Who are we kidding? If Kawi, or any company for that matter brought out a 400cc I4 screamer, the last thing we'd do is save gas. But we could save gas. Ridden easily it should see close to 50 mpg. I suppose even more is possible.

4) Accessible power: A 400cc SS allows you to use a lot more of the bike's potential on the street vs. a 600 or 1000, both of which really have to be at the track to extract maximum performance from.

I believe there is a market for smaller displacement sport bikes and bikes that fit in between, the standard faired bike. I don't see why they can't both coexist. I feel there is a market for both 400s here in the States, and honestly, the world.

[jonthechron]

Originally Posted by mikecronis

Not too new, the Ninja 450 was used by Jessica Alba in Dark Angel. I'm pretty sure the kawasaki.jp site had Ninja 400 bikes for some time. I'm pretty sure I saw them in Misawa, Japan in 1997.

I'm pretty sure it was a 250 modded to look like the 400

[jonthechron]

Originally Posted by patw

Looks like Canada for sure, and based on the article, not the UK. We'll have to wait and see if Kawi USA is importing it.

I hope this come to Canada, specially here in quebec. I would trad my 250 in no time for this.

Not because its better looking, just because it's faster.

[Zandit]

I have just traded in my wife's CBR125R for a new Ninja 650R. My wife will move to my 250R. Yes, the bars are very high compared to the 250, but the power and torque is unbelievable!!
I am looking at getting some "Sportsbars V3" that will lower the bars by about 2-3" so I think that will make all the difference. Pick it up Saturday Morning!! Can't wait!

[jonthechron]

Gotta sell my 250 ASAP then, I'm afraid the value might drop slightly due to this new product, especially here in Quebec (400 is considered to be on the same level as 250, as far as registration costs). The 250 sales will drop by alot.

With the release of the 400R here, Honda will definitely loose a crap load of sales, already that they don't have a sport 250, now they don't even have a sport 400. A reputable bike from the makers of the most popular 250R, I think I am SOLD.

Actually, I'de much rather get a used 07' ZX-6R for 6000$

[jonthechron]

Went to the Canadian Kawasaki website and clicked on the 650R to notice that it says ''Now Available as a 400R''.

Could this mean that they are giving the 400R the new-gen 650R look and possibly have a new design for the 650R?

http://www.kawasaki.ca/model/ninja-650r:1194

[adouglas]

Given that they just refreshed the 650R for 2009, that makes no sense. Too soon.

The most logical reason for this bike to exist, I think, is the licensing regulations in place in various countries.

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Given that they just refreshed the 650R for 2009, that makes no sense. Too soon.

The most logical reason for this bike to exist, I think, is the licensing regulations in place in various countries.

Or as the replacement for the 500.

[Cab305]

Wow, looks pretty legit. All other references we've seen looked home-made photoshop.
Still, I'd prefer a 400 engine in the 250 frame (faster) not a 400 in the 650 frame (slower). It almost seems as a downgrade of the 650 instead of an upgrade to the 250. Poor marketing in my opinion.

[HKr1]

sounds like a filler:

Canada - The 2011 Kawasaki Ninja 400R recently has been announced for Canada. This Kawasaki will be launched in 400 cc engine capacity that many people want. Not like the other Kawasaki, this particular bike is the one who complete the Ninja series that is already in the market. Many people think that the Ninja 250 engine capacity is too small while in ninja 650 the engine capacity is too big. Therefore, now Kawasaki is launching the new Ninja 400R that engine capacity is in the middle thus many people who think that the Ninja 250 and 650 is not able to provide them what they want, then using this bike they are all answered.

[SCREEM]

Originally Posted by Cab305

It almost seems as a downgrade of the 650 instead of an upgrade to the 250. Poor marketing in my opinion.

Agreed. The Ninja 250 is the best little bike around IMO which you can modify for sporty ergos if you like, lighten it up a bit and squeeze another 5 HP from. I would only be interested in a 400 in the 250 package as well.

[adouglas]

Just saw this

Full details... specs, price (sob), more photos:

http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/photo...-Ninja400R.htm

[sofo]

That is one fat bastard of a 400 - 447lb!

[patw]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Just saw this

Full details... specs, price (sob), more photos:

http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/photo...-Ninja400R.htm

I'm not sure if anyone noticed, but the press release is from Kawasaki USA, so it looks like you guys are getting it too. The US price isn't listed (TBA), but I'm going to guess $6.7k.

[2WheelGuy]

Originally Posted by sofo

That is one fat bastard of a 400 - 447lb!

I like small and LIGHT bikes. This 2011 400 weights about 50lbs more than my 1998 GSXR750!

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by sofo

That is one fat bastard of a 400 - 447lb!

That's wet weight.

[2WheelGuy]

Originally Posted by adouglas

That's wet weight.

Still that makes it only 12lbs lighter than a very wet 2010 ZX10 carrying a FULL fuel tank!

[sofo]

Originally Posted by adouglas

That's wet weight.

Regardless it is heavy for what it is.

There is a huge argument thread about this bike on a local forum over the weight and "sleeved-down 650r" nature attributing to the weight. With the price being what it is, I can't see this as a good choice over the 650r it was derived from.

Either Kawi. is testing the waters with this or between the 400r and 650r sales, one bike will be dropped and the other will stay is my opinion.

That said, if you want it / like it, then buy it since more options are better than fewer IMO.

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by bdavison

Just look at the ninja 250R pre-gen....and 08 and later. Did anyone catch the massive chaos at dealerships when the new design hit the stores. It was crazy. I was trying to get one when they first came out, and they disappeared off the showroom floor so fast I couldnt even get my name on one. I ended up having to wait a year before I could get one.

When these bikes were released, it was really hard to find one anywhere that wasnt spoken for already. If all the beginners wanted was a upright seating position...certainly they would have picked up the much cheaper already available 250's.....no...they wanted the sportier, performance tweaked, sportbike'esc 08 model.

If the ergos of the 250R were full on supersport ergos, they still would have sold like hotcakes, and probably would still be sold out. The new ergos and styling was what made everybody want one. Even the people with the pre-gens were selling them off for nickels to go get the new one.

Mark my words.....when you see a high quality 250-400cc bike from Kawasaki, Yamaha, Honda, or Suzuki enter the US in full supersport package, it will probably rival the Honda Cub as hottest selling bike ever.

I don't think that an upright seating position is "all beginners want". Certainly the styling of the bike is important too. But as Kawisaki says in their own write up:

Rider-friendly Ergonomics
* The riding position was specially designed to inspire rider confidence. An ideal relationship between the handlebars, seat and footpegs results in a comfortable and natural position suitable for a wide range of riders.

They are designing this bike for a wide range of riders.

I disagree with you about a Supersport 250-400cc bike being a best seller. I think the ergos on this type of bike would only appeal to a select group who is probably already buying a 250r or a 650r. In fact, I think if they were to use a more aggressive riding position on the bike, while you and others may like this better, I think it would be a turn off, or a reason not to buy the bike for others. Lets face it, the majority of those who purchase a 250r are not taking it to the track.

Of course, these are just my opinions. But I think if there was really a viable white space for a lower CC'd supersport here in the states, then I think there would be a lot of companies going after this customer. My guess is that their research tell them that this type of bike would trade off sales from their 600 series bike.

Anyway, looking forward to seeing this one in the showrooms. My guess is that it will be very popular the first year as the 250r was.

[sofo]

Originally Posted by revstriker

I don't think that an upright seating position is "all beginners want". Certainly the styling of the bike is important too. But as Kawisaki says in their own write up:

Rider-friendly Ergonomics
* The riding position was specially designed to inspire rider confidence. An ideal relationship between the handlebars, seat and footpegs results in a comfortable and natural position suitable for a wide range of riders.

They are designing this bike for a wide range of riders.

I disagree with you about a Supersport 250-400cc bike being a best seller. I think the ergos on this type of bike would only appeal to a select group who is probably already buying a 250r or a 650r. In fact, I think if they were to use a more aggressive riding position on the bike, while you and others may like this better, I think it would be a turn off, or a reason not to buy the bike for others. Lets face it, the majority of those who purchase a 250r are not taking it to the track.

Of course, these are just my opinions. But I think if there was really a viable white space for a lower CC'd supersport here in the states, then I think there would be a lot of companies going after this customer. My guess is that their research tell them that this type of bike would trade off sales from their 600 series bike.

Anyway, looking forward to seeing this one in the showrooms. My guess is that it will be very popular the first year as the 250r was.

I agree with you regarding ergonomics. Upright isn't what new riders want, comfortable and ability to reach the ground / position themselves properly as they learn and strengthen their core muscles is what they want... or rather need.

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by sofo

Either Kawi. is testing the waters with this or between the 400r and 650r sales, one bike will be dropped and the other will stay is my opinion.

That said, if you want it / like it, then buy it since more options are better than fewer IMO.

I agree. But I would suspect that it is more a competition between the 400r and the 250r. If you think about it, the customer buying this bike is either going to be a potential 250r customer going bigger, or a potential 650r customer going smaller. They certainly don't want sales trading down, so I would imagine they would want to see the sales trade away from the 250r. In the US, there are really no other brands competing in this area, so I would suspect its about themselves making more money from their existing potential customer base. If it is true that the 400r and 650r are the same engine, just sleeved down for the lower CCs, I would suspect that this bike would be cheaper to mass produce along with the 650r than to have two separate bikes with completely different engines. Lastly, because they are virtually alone in offering a sporty 250 in the US, there is no other place for these potential 250 customers to go so they would probably lose a small percent of these customers but more than make up for them by selling a more expensive bike (400r).

Just my thoughts.

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by sofo

I agree with you regarding ergonomics. Upright isn't what new riders want, comfortable and ability to reach the ground / position themselves properly as they learn and strengthen their core muscles is what they want... or rather need.

Also, and this is my own observation for what it's worth, but I find that there are more "younger" owners of supersport bikes (as a percent to total) than of the 250s. While still a great first bike for a young rider, many older guys and gals, with and without experience, are attracted to the 250r as well. I could be way off on this, but when you look at owner forums, I see more threads like "Killed a Mustang on the highway today". Where on forums like this one you see threads that are much more mature in nature.

Maybe "less mature" is more accurate than younger as there are probably some old guys that fall into that category too.

[sofo]

Originally Posted by revstriker

I agree. But I would suspect that it is more a competition between the 400r and the 250r. If you think about it, the customer buying this bike is either going to be a potential 250r customer going bigger, or a potential 650r customer going smaller. They certainly don't want sales trading down, so I would imagine they would want to see the sales trade away from the 250r. In the US, there are really no other brands competing in this area, so I would suspect its about themselves making more money from their existing potential customer base. If it is true that the 400r and 650r are the same engine, just sleeved down for the lower CCs, I would suspect that this bike would be cheaper to mass produce along with the 650r than to have two separate bikes with completely different engines. Lastly, because they are virtually alone in offering a sporty 250 in the US, there is no other place for these potential 250 customers to go so they would probably lose a small percent of these customers but more than make up for them by selling a more expensive bike (400r).

Just my thoughts.

Good thoughts too!

But you do have to think outside of the U.S. since the 250r is very popular in places with displacement restrictions.

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by sofo

Good thoughts too!

But you do have to think outside of the U.S. since the 250r is very popular in places with displacement restrictions.

Thanks. And I agree. A company may have different considerations when introducing the same vehicle in different countries. I was speaking strictly of the United States Market.

[kkim]

Scott/Andrew... now cut that out! There will be no civil/mature discussions with opposing viewpoints allowed here!!! How dare you two?

[revstriker]

Originally Posted by kkim

Scott/Andrew... now cut that out! There will be no civil/mature discussions with opposing viewpoints allowed here!!! How dare you two?

LOL! Ok. I'll change my opinion to a more combative one. Maybe something that involves religion or politics.

[jonthechron]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Just saw this

Full details... specs, price (sob), more photos:

http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/photo...-Ninja400R.htm

yeah, its been posted for a few days now, just check Kawasaki Canada

[bdavison]

Whats likely to happen is Kawasaki will dump this bike on us, saying they are testing the market for 400cc bikes.

And when it fails they will say...see thats why we dont make them..

Unfortunately they wont realize the reason it failed was because it was a bloated tuna boat...not because the market doesnt want a 400cc bike.

[Racer x]

350 lb max 50 hp for under 5000 dollars. with FI is that impossible? Why not make a 350 ninja out of the 250 instead of making a 400 out of the 650?
I don't get it. Riding a 250 is great fun . Why not make it just a little bit bigger? NOT take a an already big bike and gut the power.

[Reswob]

I would love to be able to buy a true super-sport bike smaller than a 600. The ergo's are probably my biggest gripe with the 250R (#2 being lack of F.I., #3 being a tad underpowered). Kawi could have had a real winner here, too bad they blew it big time and made a mini-650R instead.

[Racer x]

Originally Posted by Reswob

I would love to be able to buy a true super-sport bike smaller than a 600. The ergo's are probably my biggest gripe with the 250R (#2 being lack of F.I., #3 being a tad underpowered). Kawi could have had a real winner here, too bad they blew it big time and made a mini-650R instead.

a mini 650 would rock this IS a 650 with less power. O I know " Do they make a big bore kit for my 400 ninja "