H7 LED Headlight options vs HID

[408junglist]

I've had a 33W 6000K HID kit on my 08 250R for awhile now and it sucks. Doesn't light up the roadway all that great. I've been looking around for alternatives and so far I have several options but I would like to hear, from those who actually have used these options sv those who speak based on hear say.

-First up is a 55W 5000K HID setup running dual bulbs in a H7. Who's used this setup and how is your night riding with and without tinted/dark visors?

-Second up is LED H7 Headlight bulbs:
* http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/led-headlights.38304/
* http://m.ebay.com/itm/261417237344?nav=SEARCH
* http://m.ebay.com/itm/171250619739?nav=SEARCH
Thanks!

[azn370z]

You should use 4300k. The higher the number the less the road is going to be visible.

[ninja250r81]

Originally Posted by azn370z

You should use 4300k. The higher the number the less the road is going to be visible.

+1 change the bulb k to 4300

if it sucks that bad.

grab some led floodlights and put them at the front cowl is where the yellow reflective indicators go.

http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=SL3915

like cbr250r

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezxmDWgFdBs

[cuong-nutz]

You need a true HID setup besides those cheap bulbs and ballast setup. Bkmoto has a semi plug and play setup and hidretrofitsource has a kit that requires modding. HID bulbs require proper projectors, angles, and shields to put out the proper light scatter.

Phillips Motovision has a great halogen bulb which I use.

[oblivion007]

Originally Posted by cuong-nutz

You need a true HID setup besides those cheap bulbs and ballast setup. Bkmoto has a semi plug and play setup and hidretrofitsource has a kit that requires modding. HID bulbs require proper projectors, angles, and shields to put out the proper light scatter.

Phillips Motovision has a great halogen bulb which I use.

And the halogen isn't an HID so it doesn't need the projector? I could seriously use some better lights with my ride but now that I'm down to one bike I can't set it aside to install projectors for fear it might take more than a weekend.

[408junglist]

Sounds good. I'll look into these options. Thanks folks

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by oblivion007

And the halogen isn't an HID so it doesn't need the projector?

yes and no. The difference is not so much just projector vs reflector.

You can use halogens in halogen projectors or halogen reflectors. Look at the new Ford Explorers, etc with halogen projectors. Halogen reflectors are nothing new.

You can use HID bulbs in HID reflectors or HID projectors. Look at older Prius's with HID reflectors or many BMW's/Audi's withd HID projectors

The difference in halogen vs HID and reflector vs projector lies in the light source. HID bulbs and halogen bulbs do not put out light in the same manner and therefore require different methods of controlling the output. HID's are an arc-based light source, while Halogens are a filament based light source. The 'hot spot' of the bulb is in very different places and is a different shape. This is why specific light controlling hardware is required and why mixing is not recommended.

Basically, to get optimum output for your light source, you need hardware that's been designed for it. To use HID bulbs, you need a reflector or projector that's designed for HID bulbs. For halogens, you need a reflector or projector that's designed for halogens. Don't put HID in a headlight intended for halogens. Even if it has a sharp cutoff at the top so you don't blind people, you're going to have uber-bright light in all the wrong places.


The easiest way for you to get more light is to either get one of the ultra-effective bulbs (silverstar or similar) and aim it properly or upgrade your wiring harness and get a higher wattage bulb to put out more light (and heat).

Hope that helps you.

[choneofakind]

auxiliary LED lights are a great thing as well. Turn them on when you need them, off when you don't.

I wouldn't touch those LED replacement bulbs though. They look hard to aim. Same argument as the halogen vs HID. it's all in matching the light source with the method of controlling/aiming said light.

[408junglist]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

yes and no. The difference is not so much just projector vs reflector.

You can use halogens in halogen projectors or halogen reflectors. Look at the new Ford Explorers, etc with halogen projectors. Halogen reflectors are nothing new.

You can use HID bulbs in HID reflectors or HID projectors. Look at older Prius's with HID reflectors or many BMW's/Audi's withd HID projectors

The difference in halogen vs HID and reflector vs projector lies in the light source. HID bulbs and halogen bulbs do not put out light in the same manner and therefore require different methods of controlling the output. HID's are an arc-based light source, while Halogens are a filament based light source. The 'hot spot' of the bulb is in very different places and is a different shape. This is why specific light controlling hardware is required and why mixing is not recommended.

Basically, to get optimum output for your light source, you need hardware that's been designed for it. To use HID bulbs, you need a reflector or projector that's designed for HID bulbs. For halogens, you need a reflector or projector that's designed for halogens. Don't put HID in a headlight intended for halogens. Even if it has a sharp cutoff at the top so you don't blind people, you're going to have uber-bright light in all the wrong places.


The easiest way for you to get more light is to either get one of the ultra-effective bulbs (silverstar or similar) and aim it properly or upgrade your wiring harness and get a higher wattage bulb to put out more light (and heat).

Hope that helps you.

Great information! Thank you!

[oblivion007]

Originally Posted by 408junglist

Great information! Thank you!

This! Thanks.

[warlord]

I have to agree that getting a color temp closer to daylight will give you much better night visibility and useful light.

Here's my bike, converted from 35W (3Five) morimoto 4300K to Cree 25W per LED (x4 LEDs) 4500k headlights. The HIDs I hade where techniclly brighter but not visibly so. I really wanted to test the new LED technology because I'm a big Cree fan and a former flashaholic.

Also regardless of what people may say HIDS willl blind oncoming traffic unless used in projectors or with appropriate glare shields. This is mostly because of the light shining directly from the bulb and not due alignment and reflector issues. HIDs are good for conspicuousness but terrible for oncoming drivers; no amount of re-aiming can reduce this glare, only the use of glare shields will (which I made and used). Priuses with factory equipped HIDs and reflectors utilize glare shields which is why they do not blind oncoming traffic. Some factory halogen housings also include glare shields which can help with HIDs in Halogen housings but YMMV. BTW the housing for the Ninja 250r DOES NOT have any sort of shielding.

The LEDs "bulbs" are 180 degree, 25w, two per bulb. They appear much whiter and the beam distribution is much closer to stock. There is no glare due to the fact that no light comes directly off the top of the "bulb" into oncoming traffic. I also like the instant on for the high beam, and white color unlike the halogen that I was forced to use in conjunction with my HID due to the warm up that HIDs need to be useful.

As far as not producing glare, the same cannot be said for the LED fogs/driving lights which have a tight focused beam (8degrees or so) but can still dazzle oncoming traffic since the LEDs are directed straight ahead. For this reason I mounted them low and aimed them low. I may still readjust them depending on further testing. The LED fogs are 2x Cree 10W.

The headlights are H7 units but again have 2 leds per "bulb". I'm thinking about ordering the H4 ballasts which allows for better control of the bulbs. the idea would be to use both of the upper LEDs per bulb to light as the low beam, and all of the LEDs to light for high. This would get rid of the "your headlight is out" look that having only one side illuminated gives.

[dfox]

4300 is the optimal color temperature for best visible light in the dark. Your eyes mostly use black/white vision at night. Once you start going very blue (6K+), you lose usable light. 5K is a pretty good compromise, but 4300 is the best.


and all that stuff @choneofakind said.

[ForceofWill]

If you want better lighting you need to pony up. I have 6ks and don't have any issues tho they're more blue than both my cars. You do a proper projector setup and you'll have a really wide field of view with a great beam pattern. Too many people on here slapping bulbs into the stock housing.

[NevadaWolf]

Question @warlord, where did you get your LED headlights?

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by warlord

This is mostly because of the light shining directly from the bulb and not due alignment and reflector issues.

Those look really cool and are a step in the right direction, but this statement is false. Yes, the open tip on an HID bulb is a part of the problem. But go look at the math behind reflectors. Moving a bulb out of the foci of the reflector ruins the scatter produced by the reflector and requires a different reflector. That's all there is to it.

[InvisiBill]

I'm interested in your LED headlight bulbs too. I'm considering a HID projector retrofit for the 500, but would go LED if I can get brighter, whiter light with less work (and maybe even less cost). The good LED replacement headlights I've seen were $300-$500 each, so I don't trust the really cheap ones, and I've been wary about dropping a decent chunk of money on the ones that appear to be better (but may not actually be any better).

[warlord]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Those look really cool and are a step in the right direction, but this statement is false. Yes, the open tip on an HID bulb is a part of the problem. But go look at the math behind reflectors. Moving a bulb out of the foci of the reflector ruins the scatter produced by the reflector and requires a different reflector. That's all there is to it.

There is an assumption in your statement about moving focal points as well as lack of providing evidence. It also appears that you are discussing poor beam dispersion instead of glare. Yes, I stand by the statement that the majority of dangerous HID glare emits from the top of the bulb when used in a reflector housing. Furthermore, I believe that HIDs should just be used in the correct housing.

@ NevadaWolf All of the Cree emitters were sourced from eBay. The H7 kits were $47 and I don't recall the cost of the fogs.

@ InvisiBill I feel the same way about low cost LED kits but for the price I thought it was worthy of experimentation. I wouldn't have posted anything about my LED headlights experiment except for the utter lack of information available on the web or forums such as these.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by warlord

All of the Cree emitters were sourced from eBay. The H7 kits were $47 and I don't recall the cost of the fogs.

@ InvisiBill I feel the same way about low cost LED kits but for the price I thought it was worthy of experimentation. I wouldn't have posted anything about my LED headlights experiment except for the utter lack of information available on the web or forums such as these.

So it was just a random eBay auction? I took a quick look at the H4 options, but didn't see anything that really seemed to stand out from the others. Some variance in lumens and wattage, but all of it seemed to be pretty much the same Chinese stuff from different sellers.

I'd prefer to find one without a fan. I realize that once it's generating a certain amount of heat, you simply need more airflow to cool it down, but I'd rather not have a crappy little fan (based on my experience with computers and other electronics) sitting somewhat exposed on the bike. There's a lot less between the road and the back of my headlight on the 500 than in a typical car, so I'm a little more concerned about stuff (including water) getting kicked up into it. I suppose I could always rig up a huge heatsink contraption that went down to the useless ducts in the fairing...

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by warlord

There is an assumption in your statement about moving focal points as well as lack of providing evidence. It also appears that you are discussing poor beam dispersion instead of glare. Yes, I stand by the statement that the majority of dangerous HID glare emits from the top of the bulb when used in a reflector housing. Furthermore, I believe that HIDs should just be used in the correct housing.

@ NevadaWolf All of the Cree emitters were sourced from eBay. The H7 kits were $47 and I don't recall the cost of the fogs.

@ InvisiBill I feel the same way about low cost LED kits but for the price I thought it was worthy of experimentation. I wouldn't have posted anything about my LED headlights experiment except for the utter lack of information available on the web or forums such as these.

Go pick up any calc 2 textbook and read about parabolic reflectors. There's no assumptions here. Moving light out of the foci of the parabola results in light that is emitted in a different direction than intended.

I'm on my phone. I don't have time to go find a scholarly source other than my engineering classes and text books.

[dfox]

^correct.

it's not just the exposed bulb that creates the "glare", it's the light that's now bouncing off of the reflector in different directions than designed. Poor beam dispersion IS glare when it occurs above the typical "cutoff" line. Ever have a maglite? understand how you can change your beam pattern by twisting the top? now imagine if that reflector was designed to have a distinct horizontal cutoff. As you twist the top to change the beam pattern, light is going to go everywhere.

[choneofakind]

But I will admit. There is a lot of glare produced from the top of the exposed bulb vs a capped halogen bulb. There just be glare all over let keep lights in the proper containment/aiming hardware please.

[warlord]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Go pick up any calc 2 textbook and read about parabolic reflectors. There's no assumptions here. Moving light out of the foci of the parabola results in light that is emitted in a different direction than intended.

I'm on my phone. I don't have time to go find a scholarly source other than my engineering classes and text books.

One assumption you're making I'd that the ampule's arc is moved from the focal point of the original bulb's filament. There are also a lot of variables you're glossing over in order to say my statement is false. Well it's not because it's not even related. My assertion is both a generalization and compatible with the issue of poor beam dispersion due to the concerns you imprecicely mention.

BTW, how do the photons emitted directly from a light source traveling into the eyes of the observer have anything to do with a reflector they never make contact with? You're really glossing over that one. Or perhaps you can realize we're not even talking about the same thing... but you still keep quoting me. Do you really think I'm wrong, ignorant, or misleading?

Sent from my mobile phone. Plaes ingore ny misteaks.

[warlord]

Originally Posted by dfox

^correct.

it's not just the exposed bulb that creates the "glare", it's the light that's now bouncing off of the reflector in different directions than designed. Poor beam dispersion IS glare when it occurs above the typical "cutoff" line. Ever have a maglite? understand how you can change your beam pattern by twisting the top? now imagine if that reflector was designed to have a distinct horizontal cutoff. As you twist the top to change the beam pattern, light is going to go everywhere.

Did I say mostly or only? Also, reflectors don't have cutoff lines so what the heck are you talking about?

[choneofakind]

Relax.

1. Think of a filament as a line. It's a long and relatively skinny coil oriented across the reflector. Now, let's assume the drop-in LED IS centered perfectly where the center of the filament normally should be. There's still a problem. That LED is a large circle, not a slim line. Its center is in the correct place in the lens, but there is still a large amount of light emitting area (the yellow patch in your pictures) that is producing light that is NOT in the correct place. All else equal, this will cause glare (and a poorly controlled beam) from the reflector. Do you follow that?

2. I did agree (see above) that there is a lot of glare from the exposed tip of a drop-in HID bulb. I never said you were wrong. I said that is only part of the problem. Unless your headlight hardware is specifically designed for HID bulbs, don't use them. Same goes for LED's. The reflectors for each of those respective light sources simply aren't compatible/interchangeable.

3. A standard reflector is designed to make a 'cutoff'. It won't pass DOT inspection if it doesn't. Drive towards a wall with your car and you'll see a line where there is significantly less light above. Though not as sharp as a proper xenon cutoff, it is still a flat 'cutoff'

[choneofakind]

@warlord one last thought. Would you take pictures of your light output at a wall and again at a distance? I'm still seeing shine and washed out portions of the pictures, which tells me you've still got glare.

Even with my crummy fluted pregen lens, the bixenon projector controls the light well. It doesn't show any dazzle to the camera until the high beam is on or until the camera is put below the cutoff; and my cutoff isn't even that sharp.

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by cuong-nutz

Phillips Motovision has a great halogen bulb which I use.

Can confirm, and +1 (2 actually).

[headshrink]

Which lights are you using on the fork? I use the Mondomotos, but I like the subtle filter on yours.

[dfox]

@warlord

It seems as though you already have your mind made up, but I highly recommend you set aside your predisposition and read these articles.

http://www.danielsternlighting.com/t...nversions.html
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/t...dvantages.html

I have engineering instruction and design experience in the design of lighting and luminaires (light fixtures), this is all right up my ally. I don't have time to address every single thing you have to say, but I will guarantee you're probably getting worse light output (poor light dispersion, hotspots, glare) from your setup than the stock halogen setup. An exposed bulb will create some glare, but it pales in comparison to the concentrated light being reflected from every other direction that the bulb emits light. Keep in mind you will be hard-pressed to find a car with a low beam that lacks a shield, and those headlights glare like crazy when you put in HID kits.

Modifying any headlight to install a different type of bulb than what was designed is illegal for use on the street. If you chose to break the law, at least due the prudent thing and install something proper. A projector designed for LED bulbs (come stock on corolla and other more premium cars) or HID bulbs (lots of oem and aftermarket options) will likely pass typical DOT tests, even though your headlight is still technically illegal.

[warlord]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Relax.

Please take your own advice to prove you're worthy of giving such.

[warlord]

Originally Posted by dfox

@warlord

It seems as though you already have your mind made up...

You should be embarrassed to think you know what knowledge and experience I do and don't have. You're posting what I would consider general knowledge or the basic fundamentals of automotive lighting. You think I have no clue. What does that say about you?

[dfox]

Originally Posted by warlord

You should be embarrassed to think you know what knowledge and experience I do and don't have. You're posting what I would consider general knowledge or the basic fundamentals of automotive lighting. You think I have no clue. What does that say about you?

I have not assumed anything about your intelligence or experience and therefore have nothing to be embarrassed about. If you have inferred that I am insulting you, I apologize.

I will say that some of the information you have provided in this thread is contrary to current lighting engineering practice, particularly the assertion that moving focal points doesn't create glare, only exposed bulbs do. Moving focal points is exactly how high beams function in cars/motorcycles with only one bulb. There are two filaments located in two different spots. Light up one, low beam. Light up the other, high beam (glare). The attached links cover the basics about moving focal points in automotive lighting, including laboratory tests, and how that creates glare. The only reason I posted this information was due to your responses to choneofakind.

I would much rather have a discussion regarding the technical merit behind the LED retrofit that you have done than a battle trying to evoke emotional responses. If you would like to provide technical information, I'd be happy to continue this discussion, but until such time, I'm out.

[Asspire]

LED drop in replacement bulbs are a waste of time, I have no idea why they are even made.

A proper HID projector retro fit is the way to go.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by dfox

I would much rather have a discussion regarding the technical merit behind the LED retrofit that you have done than a battle trying to evoke emotional responses. If you would like to provide technical information, I'd be happy to continue this discussion, but until such time, I'm out.

Same here.

Through debate comes sharing of info and learning by all. Name calling and emotionally charged posts do nothing to contribute to either of those outcomes.

Deuces.

[warlord]

Originally Posted by dfox

I have not assumed anything about your intelligence or experience and therefore have nothing to be embarrassed about.

Who said anything about moving focal points? Not me. You should perhaps bone up on your reading comprehension and critical thinking before posting comments unrelated to what you incorrectly think I'm saying (posting).

Why do you think that choneofakind needs you to hold his or her hand anyway? He's the one that started off on an incredibly irrelevant tangent and has prescribed positions incorrectly to me in the first place. All you're doing is propagating those incorrect assertions and taking them to a new level. The fact that you're oblivious about what you're doing should be cause for embarrassment for any sensible person -but you can't even see what you're doing when it's pointed out to you.

Now if you guys think you're being mature, helpful, appropriate, or even relevant then you need to re-evaluate what those words actually mean. If anything I posted has gotten you upset in any way, you need to realize that isn't my intent. Again my intent is to share an interesting experiment -not to declare that my toying with cheap LED lights is the end-all of Ninjette lighting solutions.

If you two truly wanted to discuss the Pros/Cons and the viability of an LED retrofit then that's what your posts would have been instead of the epeen "I know everything" nonsense and thread-crapping you've been doing.

[choneofakind]

@Alex. The density is overwhelming.

[ninja250r81]

Originally Posted by warlord

I have to agree that getting a color temp closer to daylight will give you much better night visibility and useful light.

Here's my bike, converted from 35W (3Five) morimoto 4300K to Cree 25W per LED (x4 LEDs) 4500k headlights. The HIDs I hade where techniclly brighter but not visibly so. I really wanted to test the new LED technology because I'm a big Cree fan and a former flashaholic.

Also regardless of what people may say HIDS willl blind oncoming traffic unless used in projectors or with appropriate glare shields. This is mostly because of the light shining directly from the bulb and not due alignment and reflector issues. HIDs are good for conspicuousness but terrible for oncoming drivers; no amount of re-aiming can reduce this glare, only the use of glare shields will (which I made and used). Priuses with factory equipped HIDs and reflectors utilize glare shields which is why they do not blind oncoming traffic. Some factory halogen housings also include glare shields which can help with HIDs in Halogen housings but YMMV. BTW the housing for the Ninja 250r DOES NOT have any sort of shielding.

The LEDs "bulbs" are 180 degree, 25w, two per bulb. They appear much whiter and the beam distribution is much closer to stock. There is no glare due to the fact that no light comes directly off the top of the "bulb" into oncoming traffic. I also like the instant on for the high beam, and white color unlike the halogen that I was forced to use in conjunction with my HID due to the warm up that HIDs need to be useful.

As far as not producing glare, the same cannot be said for the LED fogs/driving lights which have a tight focused beam (8degrees or so) but can still dazzle oncoming traffic since the LEDs are directed straight ahead. For this reason I mounted them low and aimed them low. I may still readjust them depending on further testing. The LED fogs are 2x Cree 10W.

The headlights are H7 units but again have 2 leds per "bulb". I'm thinking about ordering the H4 ballasts which allows for better control of the bulbs. the idea would be to use both of the upper LEDs per bulb to light as the low beam, and all of the LEDs to light for high. This would get rid of the "your headlight is out" look that having only one side illuminated gives.

Would like to see a night video or photo of the individual lights on and how they make a difference.

individual low - high - fogs then
low with fogs - high with fogs

[warlord]

Originally Posted by ninja250r81

Would like to see a night video or photo of the individual lights on and how they make a difference.

individual low - high - fogs then
low with fogs - high with fogs

I'll try when I can but I don't have a great camera for those kind of pics, just a point and shoot or my cell. Also I'll probably going to be spending a lot of my free time shopping for my next bike this week on top switching to work overnights.

I did just finish rewiring the kit so that both upper emitters (LOW) come on first then all emitters turn on with the high beam switch. One of the interesting things you can do when each emitter only uses half the reflector. No more of that "headlight out" look. I still need to take it out at night in this configuration to see how the light distribution looks.

There are plenty of vids on you tube showing the comparable fog output. They're the same 10w cree used in a wide variety of different manufacturer driving light kits *cough*Denali*cough*. Mine have a narrow angle lens in order to provide more throw, rather than flood. They can be had in a variety of beam patterns, none of them being traffic friendly. The solution that most systems use is dimmer switch so that they can be used at all times for conspicuity and full power (usually wired to the high beam) for additional road lighting.

[alex.s]

how much blinker fluid do those take

[warlord]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

@Alex. The density is overwhelming.

Originally Posted by alex.s

how much blinker fluid do those take

Calling all trolls! You guys actually troll your own forums as MOTMs, WOW! That's like pooping where you eat. Good for you guys!

As I have no actual need to share the info I've been gathering let's just say I'm done posting. No worries though, unlike choneofakind I walk the talk and can keep my word. I'm sure those who are interested in the differences between stock halogens, Morimoto HIDs, and Cree LEDs in the stock reflector housings can figure things out once they've invested the time and money it takes to play around with all three lighting options as I have. This is clearly not the right place to share such information.

You may now return to playing amongst yourselves, lol.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by warlord

Calling all trolls! You guys actually troll your own forums as MOTMs, WOW! That's like pooping where you eat. Good for you guys!

As I have no actual need to share the info I've been gathering let's just say I'm done posting. No worries though, unlike choneofakind I walk the talk and can keep my word. I'm sure those who are interested in the differences between stock halogens, Morimoto HIDs, and Cree LEDs in the stock reflector housings can figure things out once they've invested the time and money it takes to play around with all three lighting options as I have. This is clearly not the right place to share such information.

You may now return to playing amongst yourselves, lol.

is this guy serious? don't take the internet so seriously.