Incorrect Body Positioning?

[rasta]

So I recently got Total Control, and noticed this picture on page 19, in the "How Countersteering Works" section. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember something in TOTW2 about how you lean with the bike. So is this person's BP incorrect?

(not discounting anything about the book, it's just something I noticed and wanted to ask)

[adouglas]

Looks crossed up to me. Butt is way off the seat... two full cheeks' worth.

I believe you're supposed to align your torso with the centerline of the bike. One cheek is about all you need.

Look at butt cam footage of pro racers. Their a$$es don't appear to get anywhere near this far off, even the MotoGP guys.

[EsrTek]

Yes BP is off, and I think that is part of reason they choose that picture, to highlight improper way of doing it.

They do need to update pics, the 80's called and want thier pictures back.

[csmith12]

"Sometimes, when the track has the traction, tires have the grip and the bike has the lean, the rider can be awarded a lot of freedoms of body position and style." - csmith12

Is it right = no
Is it wrong = no
Does it work for him = thats all that matters

[alex.s]

thats the old style bodyposition. look at old school motogp

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by rasta

..........Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember something in TOTW2 about how you lean with the bike...........

Incorrect? ......... Here is a picture of Mick Doohan, who won five consecutive 500 cc World Championships (1994-1998):



Earlier than those races, we could see Mike Hailwood, becoming the first man in the history of the Isle of Man TT to win three races in one week (125 cc, 250 cc and 500 cc) while using his natural posture:



When in doubt, go to the source:

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/in...showtopic=1362

"There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth; not going all the way, and not starting." - Buddha

[Sirref]

motofool, sometimes I wonder what your bookmarks bar looks like and how you can even navigate it with the amount of links you're able to come up with.

That said, the pic was already stated as being used as an example for bad BP. Rider is crossed up as hell to the point where having his butt on the seat and leaning his upper body over as far as he can would likely reward him with more grip and a more upright bike.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Sirref

motofool, sometimes I wonder what your bookmarks bar looks like and how you can even navigate it with the amount of links you're able to come up with...............

By the way gents,.............. don't hang off while street riding, as the OP's picture suggests: it is unnecessary if you remain within legal-common sense speeds.

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by Motofool

By the way gents,.............. don't hang off while street riding, as the OP's picture suggests: it is unnecessary if you remain within legal-common sense speeds.

Strictly for commoners!

[Sirref]

^ I agree with motofool there, even though I do hang off while on the streets it's absolutely unnecessary within 20-30 mph of most speed limits. Excluding the occasional corner in PA or the mountains that has like 4-5 warning signs in front of it. If they have a warning sign there somebody probably went off and got hurt or worse for them to add it which is a damned good reason to slow down. If somebody else crashed in a corner because they went into it too fast without being able to see all the way through then it's definitely possible for it to happen again.

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

Strictly for commoners!

Well he said on the streets, commoners don't go to track days

[rasta]

Originally Posted by Motofool

By the way gents,.............. don't hang off while street riding, as the OP's picture suggests: it is unnecessary if you remain within legal-common sense speeds.

Common sense? Ain't nobody got time for that

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Incorrect? ......... Here is a picture of Mick Doohan, who won five consecutive 500 cc World Championships (1994-1998):

When in doubt, go to the source:

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/in...showtopic=1362
[COLOR="Blue"]

Did, and here's what it had to say:

The bum off/body twisted back across the top of the bike positioning, which many phase four riders had been doing, was and still is an interesting piece of self-deception.

Photos of famous, skilled and highly successful riders doing things old school only shows that what has now emerged as the preferred method had not been worked out at that time. Just because the guy was good doesn't mean he's doing it as well as it can be done (I hesitate to say "doing it right" because that can is full of worms).

If Doohan were to start racing today, do you think he'd ride like this? Somehow I doubt it. At the time what he was doing was accepted as state of the art. Not any more.

If we were to simply look at greats from the past and take their methods as gospel, nothing would ever change.

[CycleCam303]

Lee parks is a giant. In all of his pictures he is grinding a knee into the ground even on the street. People with long legs can just scoot off the seat and pull that off.

Plus 1 for csmith's comment. The fastest adult mini rider in our supermoto races just sit bolt upright in the seat. He isn't really pushing the bike down or anything. Most would say his BP could be way better. But not even the kids can touch that.

Rasta just go to a z2 trackday and hangout with @KazMan and have an instructor go out with you every session. Seriously, best dollar to learn ratio ever.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by CycleCam303

People with long legs can just scoot off the seat and pull that off.

it don' work, rickeyeeeee!

[mgentz]

I love the pic of Doohan. He has more lean angle than Marquez!!!

[Misti]

Originally Posted by mgentz

I love the pic of Doohan. He has more lean angle than Marquez!!!

It's an amazing pic for sure and the fact that he is carrying more lean angle than Marquez is exactly the point. By hanging your body off the bike and not riding "crossed up" you are able to get around a corner at the same speed with LESS overall lean angle. That means you reserve more margin for error.

Doohan came from a dirt riding background and was exceptional and sliding the bike, front and rear and carrying this extreme kind of lean angle. Not everyone can do that. Is it right or wrong? I think it is more about the fact that it worked for him, that style works for some, but the majority of riders would benefit from adjusting their body position so they are leaning with the bike, locked onto it with a stable lower body and carrying a little less overall lean angle.

[mgentz]

Originally Posted by Misti

It's an amazing pic for sure and the fact that he is carrying more lean angle than Marquez is exactly the point. By hanging your body off the bike and not riding "crossed up" you are able to get around a corner at the same speed with LESS overall lean angle. That means you reserve more margin for error.

Doohan came from a dirt riding background and was exceptional and sliding the bike, front and rear and carrying this extreme kind of lean angle. Not everyone can do that. Is it right or wrong? I think it is more about the fact that it worked for him, that style works for some, but the majority of riders would benefit from adjusting their body position so they are leaning with the bike, locked onto it with a stable lower body and carrying a little less overall lean angle.

Oh, I'm not saying that his style is perfect, just that he is carrying an insane amount of lean angle. Also, you are right in that Mic knew what he was doing when it came to sliding the bike.

[cbinker]

BP is constantly evolving, that was good BP back then, but now everyone is trying to catch Marquez's BP.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by cbinker

BP is constantly evolving, that was good BP back then, but now everyone is trying to catch Marquez's BP.

This.

Look for suit manufacturers to put more and more metal elbow sliders on the outer part of the sleeve (like Marquez has) for all the wannabes out there.

I'm waiting for someone to put sliders on helmets.

[Motofool]

http://starmotorcycle.com/body-posit...snt-realistic/

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by csmith12

"Sometimes, when the track has the traction, tires have the grip and the bike has the lean, the rider can be awarded a lot of freedoms of body position and style." - csmith12

Is it right = no
Is it wrong = no
Does it work for him = thats all that matters

/End Thread

[sharky nrk]

Two riders, same bike, same tires, two very different styles. ....... both work. Ok now /End Thread

[Sytiane]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Incorrect? ......... Here is a picture of Mick Doohan, who won five consecutive 500 cc World Championships (1994-1998):



Earlier than those races, we could see Mike Hailwood, becoming the first man in the history of the Isle of Man TT to win three races in one week (125 cc, 250 cc and 500 cc) while using his natural posture:



When in doubt, go to the source:

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/in...showtopic=1362

"There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth; not going all the way, and not starting." - Buddha

Solid link, thanks for sharing!

["A"]

My style of body positioning, inside elbow to the pavement.

The New Body Position While Cornering

The closer rider's upper body is closer to the corner=the less the bike has to lean and more tire meat on the pavement. Even more so when you lean with your head.

[sharky nrk]

There was a really cool Blog by Scott Jones overlaying and comparing the body position of the GP guys at COTA. Work filter keeps me from finding it but if I remember when I get home I will put he link up.

[adouglas]

The product at that link (TL;DR: a second foot peg that goes above your foot) is nuts.

Anything that could possibly entangle a body part in a get-off has no place on a motorcycle. The fastest riders in the world do just fine without that nonsense. ijs....

Question: Okay, I get the whole tilt-the-head thing. Vale does it a lot. What I'd like to know is, how do you look all the way through the turn with your head tilted to the side? You have to look up instead of rotating at the neck, and you can't see as far that way (try it).

I imagine that the whole tilt-the-head thing is of greatest benefit at maximum lean, and as you get back up on the seat you do in fact level your head so you can turn it.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by sharky nrk

There was a really cool Blog by Scott Jones overlaying and comparing the body position of the GP guys at COTA. Work filter keeps me from finding it but if I remember when I get home I will put he link up.

I got you...

https://photo.gp/2015/06/19/riding-s...m-cota-motogp/ - Honda Riders

http://photo.gp/2015/06/22/motogp-ri...m-cota-part-2/ - Yamaha Riders

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I got you...

https://photo.gp/2015/06/19/riding-s...m-cota-motogp/ - Honda Riders

http://photo.gp/2015/06/22/motogp-ri...m-cota-part-2/ - Yamaha Riders

Those overlaying pictures are very interesting as they show that the lean angles of the bikes are practically identical.

Note the front suspension tubes.