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Old December 20th, 2021, 02:56 AM   #1
Bob KellyIII
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Is Browns gas Viable in cars or bikes?

The answer to the title queston in my opinion is yes definitely... I say that because I have done it.... and got great results on MPG in my truck
I used 2 cell types a "Randy cell" and a "wall switch plate cover cell" both stainless steel and carefully constructed.
the wall plate cellgace me right at 2 LPM (that's...liters per minute )for 20 amps draw....the Randy cell gave 1 LPM at 10 amps and 2 LPM at 20 amps
so they both were equivalent, and excellent hydroxy cells.

years later I was rummaging through my Junk and came across the cells stashed away in a corner so I decided to pull them out and clean them up
and took a few pictures .
....
these are referred to as wet cells not dry cells which means they have to be immersed into electrolyte where a dry cell has the electrolyte bound within the plates.... I personally like the wet cells better.
....
before you say it doesn't work and point to all the other guys that have tried it and failed let me say I have done it and it works !
the main reason that other people try to do this and it fails is they get the cell in there hook it's output to the intake manifold and that's all....they do not reduce the amount of fuel going to the carburetor, so of course they get the same gas mileage ! if your trying to get better gas mileage you MUST reduce the gasoline being used by the engine. !
I did this on a Toyota Pickup truck 2wd with fuel injection 2000 cc engine (R22) and doubled my gas mileage from 22mpg to 44~45 MPG for over a year while I used it....
I finally got mad and took it off because of the green goo that was ever present in the cells... but that is another story ( I guess I used steel in what was supposed to be ALL stainless steel cell !)
.... SO YES IT WORKS !
....
here are some crude pictures probably taken 5 years ago
....
the 1st picture is the cells taken apart out of their ABS containers
the picture on the right is the Randy cell
3rd picture is of One wall switch plate cell pieces note large hole and smaller hole
they are stacked alternately so one cell is positive the next is negative and so on and must not touch.
I used 7 plates for the wall plate cell and vinyl hose pieces to insulate the bolts that held them in place
one bolt was fed negative and the other was fed positive directly from the relay ( so I could turn it on and off)
the gas the cell made went through a long 24" water filled bubbler then through a spark arrester of sorts
and then into the intake manifold....
both the Bubbler and the Hydroxy cells had pop off caps ! VERY IMPORTANT !
i had one pop off once and the cap flew 200ft in the air ! with a hellacious kaboom !
( i was experimenting with a Hydroxy torch !)
the Randy cell was constructed from 2" stainless steel fender washers with a large hole and a small hole
I used 11 washers and they were hooked up negative and positive all the way down the cell
the insulators were from Orange back to school folder pieces and it was hard to keep the spacing as small as possible
the negative side had thin washers between them I think
The Randy cell is not easy to construct as the spacing must be close but it actually out preformed any other cell we tried.
....
reducing the fuel in my truck was done by a metal condom over the exhaust sensor and a bypass hose around the air sensor with a valve in it (5/8 garden hose & small valve) with that I could lean out the engine till it died!
if you have any questions feel free to ask I will try to help
just remember you have to reduce the gas in order to see any MPG savings !
....
I have not seen a Motorcycle with a big enough alternator to handle a good Hydroxy cell... but that does not mean it can't be done !
.....
Bob........








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Old December 20th, 2021, 10:26 AM   #2
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Is there minimum size for these cells to function?
While 270-watts is large draw for motorcycle, what about downsizing everything?

What about producing this gas off-site?
Then pressurizing it into canisters and using it on bikes?

Much more precise methods can be used for metering such as using nitrous injectors. Then an exact amount (not tied to production-rate) can be injected to match amount jets have been reduced. Injection amounts can programmed on 3D map to vary with load X RPM.

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Old December 20th, 2021, 08:50 PM   #3
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well, we started to go into that years ago and the smallest cell we ever made was the one out of the 2" fender washers and I actually could not see any difference in production between the small cell and the larger wall switch cell
and there was a big size difference in the cells... production is a product of amperage, not so much voltage although higher voltage helps
... I got over 5LPM from a Randy cell by hooking it to my DC welder
and running it at 105 VDC Line voltage on the electrode of the welder and cranking up the amps to 200 amps....
that little cell really put out the Gas.... it never did arc between the plates like I expected it to !
....
storing HHO gas is not advisable, in any scenario as it is very highly explosive as you know. yes you can do that but gas production falls off over 3 and 4 psi and will almost be completely shut down at 20 psi. (Yes I tested that).
so you shoot yourself in the foot if you store it, not to mention it will recombine into water when stored for a long time.
....
it's far better to have cells that kick in on demand, than to store excess gas
....

A motorcycle takes far less HHO to run it than a car but unless you add a large car altenator to the bike engine I don't see how you can get enough amperage to run a cell ... I had 2 cells in one container at one time
on my truck and that worked really good I got double the production of gas but also double the draw....
Bob Boyce's tube cells were very good producers but their spacing was a long way apart if you could make a tube cell with a spacing of 1/16" or less
that would be a fantastic cell...
so the size of the cell ( surface area) really doesn't come into the picture much... just about any cell will handle an insane amount of amperage
Logic tells me there should be a point of saturation, but I never found one on the Randy cell.
I started to make a 12"x12" stainless steel plate cell like Bob Boyce made one time but I didn't have the $400 bucks for the stainless steel
the theory there was the abundance of plate area made for more production
but that is not what I found, I found it was mainly amperage that determines production amount.
he also ran an inverter giving the plates 220 vdc and alot of amps...( can't remember how many amps right now but it was alot!)
and he had a frequency adjust pulser on that voltage that in his words "shook the bubbles loose ".... it must have done something as his VW sand buggy got a minimum of 8LPM and as much as 12LPM and it ran fine in all situations.... with NO gasoline.
....
so he was way ahead of me on production of HHO .... so I figured I would just add more cells... which would be the poor mans way out...<grin>
his VW had the same CC's as my truck so how could I go wrong copying that ?
I got 6 cells made and was making 8... had them attached to a board that sit behind the cab in the pickup bed...and was going to plumb it to the engine from there... I had in mind of running the last 2 or 3 cells on relays that
were automatically switched on my a sensitive pressure switch of 1 PSI to keep the gas pressure as low as possible
I don't know how well that would have worked though ,my alternate plan was to have switches on the dash for when demands were high, like going up hills.I was going to use a propane carburator to hook the HHO gas to the engine
so I would have throttle control... a easy cure for the metering of the HHO.
...
I am guessing but I would think that 8 LPM gas production would be enough for a 750cc motorcycle
but I have no way of knowing that.... it's a guess bikes use more fuel per cc than a car engine as they produce more HP per cc.... in almost every case.
.... I had a 3.5 HP B&S engine that I hooked to the HHO container and got it started it idled fine but would not take any throttle .... any throttling up killed it as it was just too lean.
and that was just 2 LPM of HHO
...so you can see the problem a motorcycle would take 4 times as much HHO production than that to work.
...
Yes there are fancy injectors that when computer controlled could solve the HHO injection problem , turn on extra cells when needed ,and really be a boon to the whole idea... but that is expensive , and anyone doing this is trying to do it to save money because their poor, the rich people don't bother, they just bitch at the gas pump !
....



Bob....
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Old December 21st, 2021, 08:32 PM   #4
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Another Viable alternative to The extremely High, gasoline prices is Fuel vaporization.... what got me started in this was an article I found in an old mechanics Illustrated magazine that showed a few pictures of this fell'a in Nebraska who converted his Model A ford pickup to run on gasoline vapor
he claimed a whopping 400 MPG ! I got close to 100 MPG once with my ford pinto but nothing even approaching the 400 mpg mark he claimed
my ford Pinto got 80 MPG and that was a unit I made up that had a coil inside a 3" steel plumbing pipe that was filled with hot water from the heater core of the car.... a 190deg. thermostat was put in and that was the jests of the vaporizer from the vaporizer it ran directly to a needle valve that went to the base of the carburetor at the vacuum port.... no fancy automatic metering here it was by guess and by golly running this system !
although I found later that I could have installed a propane carburetor and have had normal throttle control

the Idea was to start the car like normal and let it warm up once it reached operating tempiture you would turn off the gas going to the carburator and open the needle valve that restricted the flow of gasoline vapor....
it would stagger and run poorly for a few minutes but eventually clear out and run real smooth...
accelerating was a bit tricky as you had to turn the needle valve to the right position for that opening of the throttle.... not an easy thing to do so what I found I did was hold the throttle at a certain position and then adjust the needle valve to open, so the engine would run good I had it on the car for about 3 months and the problem was that it didn't have enough capacity to handle 65 mph on the main road and if I pushed it too hard vaporized fuel would get through the vaporizer and cause the engine to stagger and jerk badly..... the fuel line going to the vaporizer had to have a check valve in it
so the pressure of the vaporizer would not push into the fuel pump....
.... expanding on what I learned with that system I made a change and put the coil directly on the exhost manifold.... that worked fantastic I never ran out of vapor again with that method....
but it was a P.I.T.A. to use ! so I took it off....
later I made a completely diferent vaporizer that was heated by the exhaust
infact I ran the exhaust through a 1/4" steel plate box with a carb float valve in it and tried that on my toyota truck.... it worked but the vapor was recondencing before it reached the cylinders so it was only partially successful and the hand made butterfly valve to allow vapor into the air cleaner intake pipe was less than good by a long shot...so I built a heat rizer to end all heatrisers ! with 4 or 5 1 1/4" conduit pipes wrapped around the exhaust pipe... and fed the heated air to the intake... That worked !
at 65 mph it stayed vapor and the engine ran great ... **** hit the fan and I lost my job and I had to have reliable transportation so I took it all off there and saved it... I think I may still have it actually !
but i got it working real good about the time I had to stop playing with it !
and I never did get a MPG reading on it
...you see when the first jet engines came out the air force was very proud of their new technology but the flight time was terribly short ! 10 minutes !
hardly worth flying for that short of time.... however they came up with a process that vaporized the fuel and expanded that time to 30 minutes and they have been using vaporization on jet engines every sense !
so it would stand to reason that if I got 20 mpg before vaporization I should get as much as 60 mpg with vaporization ...so I thought it was worth a try
and that is using the governments data ...other privet parties of the time claimed 120 mpg and that claim was repeated by several people !
but no body I know of ever got the 400mpg that was stated in that article I found....
little tid bits I learned along the way
gasoline vaporizes at 110 degrees
gasoline expands over 600 times when it is vaporized
vaporized gasoline looses around 20% of its bang when it is vaporized
so the engine does have a little less power.
the ignition timing needs to be changed just like HHO gas as it burns much easier ... I think I set mine at TDC but I can't remember, or 5 degrees BTDC
instead of 12 degrees BTDC....being stock.
...
out of all the gas saving things I have played with fuel vaporization shows the most promise....
heat the fuel with the exhaust pipe and use a propane carb and a real good heat rizer ! LOL
....the problem with this setup is the engine needs to start on raw gasoline as everything is cold...
I got around that by running a 1/4" copper tubing from the electric fuel pump to a needle valve and then to the vacuum port on the base of the propane carb.... so when it was cold I would just crack the needle valve and hit the starter...and keep opening the needle valve till the engine fired up.
this was on my Old 1968 Dodge 318 V8 engine but I had trouble on that engine with the vapor re-condensing to droplets before it got into the cylinders ... an extensive heat riser was made and it cured the problem
the intake air needs to be at least 110 degrees and that is hard to do for the volume a V-8 uses !
Running vapor on that Dodge truck made the carburetor form frost all over it and also the intake manifold...
before the heat riser. and it didn't run very good as a result...
once the heat riser was installed it ran very smoothly but the Jet in the Propane carburetor was way too small
it would idle fine but when you tried to give it throttle it bogged and tried to die...
I never did get the propane carb to work like it should have.

the setup I used on the Dodge truck with a 318 single BBL carb and automatic transmition that got around 12 MPG
was a 3/8" copper tube about 25' of it filled with sand blasting sand and crimped off on both ends and wrapped around the exhaust pipe as close to the exhaust manifold as I could get it... it then was wrapped in insulation and tinfoil ... this truck had duel pipes so I used the other side for the heat riser an electric fuel pump fed a hand made check valve on line to the bottom of the coil a switch on the dash turned the fuel pump on and off and a rod went through the dash into the engine compartment to a valve just after the check valve so I could shut off fuel to the vaporizer and yet still have fuel to the idler circuit i made so I could start the thing....
i had another valve inline on the idler circuit so I could shut it off and then use the vaporizer ( I didn't bother putting a knob through the dash for that valve as I had the hood up anyways....
I was this close to having it running perfect and then My mother died....and Sh#@ hit the fan..we moved back to the Ranch and I never got back to it.

Bob........
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Old December 22nd, 2021, 11:13 AM   #5
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Eh? Petrol only burns as vapour.
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Old December 22nd, 2021, 11:56 AM   #6
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On constructing HHO cells there are a bunch of cell designs out there and most work fairly well. there are 2 categories wet cells and dry cells, I never really got into dry cells because they seamed like they wasted alot of surface area of the plates where if it was a wet cell all the airea would be used... but that was just my preference.
My method of making a cell is fairly straightforward... every other plate has to be negative and the other ones are positive so it's negative, positive,negative, positive etc. all the way through the cell to make that arrangement you have to insulate the bolts you are holding the thing together with really good or you will have a direct short and the cell will not work
I will describe how to build a really nice cell for good production that needs no insulation but might need a zip tie or two to keep the plates separated.
( keep in mind I haven't built this cell it's just an idea I had)
using 4"x6" stainless steel plates 20 of them and 2 1/4" threaded rods about 8" long or so ( long enough so you can get 10 plates on it with a stainless steel nut between each one....how ever long that needs to be and have about 2" over hang on the end.... drill 1/4" holes in the center of the width and about 1/8" away from the edge on each plate and assemble the first half of the cell by putting the threaded rod through the hole of the plate and a nut on either side of it near one end of the rod... add the next plate and another nut and keep doing that until you have all 10 plates on the threaded rod
line up all the plates and snug up all the nuts half the cell is done.....
now make another one of those using the same method. now these 2 pieces can inter mesh with each other and the plate spacing will be very small, which is what we want !
now those threaded rods need to be attached to something solid so they won't move , I suggest a 1" piece of thick white plastic or plexy glass
don't use black plastic as it has an electrical resistance that will rob electric power.
once you mount the 2 threaded rods to the Plexiglas seperator you might make another one for the other end of the threaded rods to help keep them at the same distance.
this is all well and good and the cell is almost complete as long as the plates do not touch and the odds of that are very high that some will be touching
so you get some white zip ties and force them under the plate that wants to touch and that will keep them from touching. you don't have to do all the plates that way only the ones that are not cooperating !now check the threaded rods with a VTOM meter for continuity between them, there should be NONE !
once No continuity is achieved the cell is ready to be used
.... the problem with this design is it's shape it's a "long rectangle" and it's hard to find a container that it would fit into and be air tight ( it MUST be air tight) you could make your own container from 1/4" plexiglass or use a tupper-ware container ! just remember it has to hold acid and you don't want that to leak ! you simply mount the cell in the container and make a hose connector to collect the gas from a vinyl tube.
the easiest method is to mount the cell onto the lid of the container and add a hose bib to the lid as well....
fill the container with distilled water and add some KOH or several packets of Lemmon aid Kool-Aid to the water the amount of electrolyte (KOH or kool-aid) you add to the water determines how much amperage you will draw so so accordingly
to draw 20 amps it takes alot of electrolyte to draw 40amps the water has to be at the saturation point with the electrolyte. meaning adding more electrolyte makes no change in amp draw.
so there is a point at which you cannot go beyond in production because you cannot get anymore amps into the cell !
that is why if you want more HHO you have to run more cells.
....
now that you have a HHO cell water and electrolyte you can hook up a battery to the cell ( through an amp gauge) and actually see it work...
using just water it will barely bubble or make a cloud of tiny bubbles
but not be really productive at all the electrolyte really changes that
it will transform the water into a rolling boil !
but that gas it is making is extremely explosive so safety precautions are needed.... you now need a bubbler ! a bubbler is a way to keep the flame from entering the production chamber and blowing up the cell
it is made by using a 24" piece of PVC pipe with a cap on one end and a red
"POP off cap "or removable plug on the other and 2 nylon hose bibs put into the side of the pipe one at side of the bottom and one at the top's side so you can stand the pipe upright
run a vinyl hose from the cell container to the bottom of the bubbler ( make sure the water in the bubbler will not back flow into the cell by raising the hose above the top of the bubbler (you'll need a fairly long hose for that))
container and from the bubbler to a pan of water with a bit of dish soap in it
just for fun.... then you can light the bubbles and you will realise why this stuff is dangerous ! a 50 cent piece size bubble will be like a shot gun blast !
and you do NOT want to ignite that large voluum in the HHO cell or the top of the bubbler !!!
....
that's a quick to make HHO cell
keep in mind
you NEVER want to use a glass jar as a cell holder it will shatter and cover you with glass... if your lucky , if your unlucky send you to the hospital with a shard of glass stuck in your eye ! ...it's not worth it...use plastic !
and use a removable plumbing cap for the 2" pipe in the bubbler those things are great put it on snuggly and you don't have to worry about it
if the flame travels up the hose ( and it will) it will ignite the HHO voluum in the top of the bubbler and blow that cap off the top with a kaboom.!!!
so keep that voluum small by keeping the water about 1/2" below the upper hose connector ! that still a large volume of HHO gas ! but it is small compared to the cell container.
....
Bob...
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Old December 22nd, 2021, 12:11 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Eh? Petrol only burns as vapour.
Very true but you get 600 times more of it if it is vaporized before it goes into the cylinder.....
you get a much much finer vapor that way and it all gets used instead of just a large percentage of it as in a F.I system

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Old December 22nd, 2021, 12:33 PM   #8
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Carbs vapourise petrol before it goes into cylinder.

That's basis of EFI and direct-injection, completely vapourising petrol. Once it's in cylinders, you'll still need stoich mixture of 14.7:1. Honda's done good job of using leaner 16:1 or so by concentrating richer mixture near plugs. Not sure how you can lean it out more than that and still have useable combustion. About 16.5:1 was leanest I can get for steady state low-load cruising. As soon as I add throttle for acceleration, it would start knocking & pinging like mad!

F1 turbo cars in '80s heated petrol to 70-80C before injecting. On one high-boost car, I actually aimed injectors upstream back at throttle-body for maximum turbulence and vapourisation. It was large 150-lb/hr injectors due to large volume of E85 needed. Ended up with better performance using dual staged injectors, 2 per cylinder. Again, straying too far from stoich mixture lowered power and efficiency.
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Old December 23rd, 2021, 12:21 AM   #9
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Danno !
I see where your coming from ...Why bother if a FI system vaporizes the gas just as well Right ? well, the problem is a FI system does not "Vaporize the gas" technically.... it just sprays it out in a fine mist... finer than a carburetor will do most definitely, but no where near as fine as a true Vaporizer will do because a true vaporizer used heat to vaporize the fuel a good fine sprey will get you as much as 20~24mpg on a full sized modern truck where a True vaporizer will get you 120~124 MPG most do not achieve that I'll admit ... but I think that is simply because of an inadequate heat rizer . most systems I've heard of got 50mpg and above doubling the milage or tripling the milage they originally had.
... when you vaporize gasoline it expands it volume by 600 to 630 times and that is not igniting it, that is just vaporizing it. so in technical terms a vaporizer system is capable of giving you 600 times the MPG you are currently getting...
you get more gasoline to play with per gallon using a vaporizer... you do not get that advantage with a fuel injected unit because the gas is not expanded to it's maximum amount before being used in the cylinder. that expansion is the important part.
if your vaporizer only partially expands the gas that means all the gas molecules are not All seperated and that's no better than a good FI system.
the problem as I stated before is when you mix air into the vaporized fuel the fuel wants to Re-condense back into a liquid and the only thing that will stop it from doing that is heating that air to over 110 degrees.... I had 210~220 degree air going into my carb with the heat rizer I made and it maintained that temperature so I think I was fairly safe to say the system was working as planned I just didn't have a big enough jet in the propane carb to actually use it. I don't know what it did at highway speeds.
about that time line I got a harbor freight 3 in one Mill,Drill lathe and I was going to drill out the rivet that holds the main jet to the diaphragm and make another one with a larger slot in it, all it was was a taper about 1/2" long with a fairly wide slot cut in it and that was riveted to the diaphragm that pulled it up letting the propane or gas in.... but I never did that.
instead I made a wood gas generator for that truck....which was never finished ! and a wood gas generator is way more complicated than a vaporizer i found LOL
.....
A good way to think about it is "Gasoline comes in it's compact storage mode right from the pump....
a vaporizer un packs it for use !
the end results is exploding a Gas/air mixture not a fine mist... by gas I mean gas as in it's natural form not gasoline
and that is the major difference .... if it didn't work jet engines would not use it ! but it does and they keep refining it as the years go by !

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Old December 23rd, 2021, 12:06 PM   #10
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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
You need to collect more concrete measured emperical data:

- measure exactly how much petrol is being injected: fuel-pressure in rail, pulse-width injector is open = fuel mass being injected

- calculate optimum AFR 14.7 to 16.0:1

- sniff exhaust to verify combustion with wideband-O2 sensor, any unvapourised petrol on intake stroke is vapourised during heat of combustion. Anything not finding O2 to react with will go out exhaust

You will find:

1. carbs are sending extra unnecessary petrol into engine, extra wasted unburnt fuel will go out exhaust. Not unusual to find cruising AFR in rich 12-13:1 range and 9-10:1 under WOT

2. EFI with port-injection and O2-sensor feedback improves this tremendously. Cruising at 14.7-16:1 gives optimum combustion and mileage. WOT typically in 11-12:1 range. EFI typically gives +10-20% improvement in power and mileage over carbs

3. EFI with direct-injection improves things slightly. Primarily through use of wideband-O2 sensor feedback for tighter control of AFR under all operating conditions. WOT mixtures can now stay at 14.7:1 all way to redline. Minor +5% improvements over port-injection.

What you'll find with objective quantifiable data from sniffing exhaust is there's no extra fuel being wasted!!! High-pressure injection vapourises petrol completely! Anything not is vapourised by heat of compression stroke. AND confirmed by wideband-O2 in exhaust that there's no extra fuel being wasted!!!.
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Old December 23rd, 2021, 03:24 PM   #11
Bob KellyIII
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Name: Robert
Location: Weed, California.
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Motorcycle(s): 2012 Kawasaki Ninja 250R, 2021 CSC TT250, 1977 Triumph Bonneville 750cc,2001 Honda XR650L.

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"quote"
What you'll find with objective quantifiable data from sniffing exhaust is there's no extra fuel being wasted!!! High-pressure injection vapourises petrol completely! Anything not is vapourised by heat of compression stroke. AND confirmed by wideband-O2 in exhaust that there's no extra fuel being wasted!!!." "unquote"
Ok then what the heck are they actually doing to get such low gas mileage ?
the max gas mileage I've seen on a truck is 26 mpg
if their getting NO WASTE as your saying then something else is going on

Remember I got 80+ MPG on my ford pinto a car that got 20mpg before I started yes there was alot of staggering involved trying to get the mixture right but still I did it......
Please don't tell me you believe what the Car manifacturers told congress ! about the maximum gas mileage anyone can possibly get is 50MPG !
at the time the Honda Accord got 58mpg on long trips at 80 mph ! My father in law did that !
those lying idiots convinced congress that it was ok to over charge us on gas ! and were just trying to justify the poor mileage of American cars
when all along they know we could be getting in the 100's miles per gallon !
their HYPE is nothing but a stack of lies....
......
you cannot get Complete vaporization and turn gasoline into a GAS without using heat, I'm sorry I just dont think high pressure injectors is going to accomplish that ..... that would mean no 2 molicules of gasoline are left stuck together..... just because you spreyed it real good... sorry ...that ain't happening ! at best you would get a high percentage of vaporization
.... and if that is happening the gas mileage on new cars should be in the 70 to 80 MPG range
.....
back in the 1970's I made a discovery that shocked me....
I had a Ford at the time and it got 15 to 20 MPG is all....
a friend of mine got a brand new Dodge pickup and he got 20 mpg with it
LOADED or un loaded.... let me repeat that ,LOADED or unloaded which should be impossible ! the car manufacturers were so clever to do that with Chevy ,ford, dodge and all the rest of the car manufacturers, that takes talent
and alot of engineering to accomplish that task same mileage loaded or unloaded should not be possible with a carburetor ! but they pulled it off some how !
with my 1968 dodge I found that the 12 mpg I was getting could be improved by blocking off the accelerator pump ! after I did that I got 20mpg consistently out of a 318 v-8 ! i also added straight pipes...
so the car manufacturers have been playing us for fools for a long time now
.... why would they do such a thing ? that goes against logic ? because they all own stock in oil companies you scratch my back i'll scratch your idea.
they have been playing that game sense the late 1960's and still do it.
and their no longer worried about foreign competition because they got them to play ball in the 1980's did you notice that toyota and Honda both show a MPG in the mid to high 20's ? somewhere along the line behind secret doors an agreement was made to limit MPG to the 20's it's not the lack of technology their all in cahoots ! LOL.....
another friend of mine down in Florida Walt Whitman if i remember correctly
built up a chevy 427 engine 4 bolt main. and had it in a el camino it was a blue printed engine that made over 500 hp....he owned a tow truck and had a small towing business going the engine in his tow truck took a dive and had to be replaced so he took the engine out of his El Camino and put it in his tow truck
he got over 50 mpg with the El Camino and even when he put it in the heavy tow truck he got in the high 40's to low 50 s MPG ....
he said it was simply because the engine was not working hard at all !
( he towed my 36' school bus with that truck !)
he knew that engine like the back of his hand and kept it in perfect tune at all times,,, it had 4" exhaust pipes on it to relive back pressure and huge headers i don't remember what he had on it for carburetors but I think it was duel quadrajets that were highly modified.... that engine was a Monster !
he said conventional engine theory is all screwed up you do not want back pressure, your shooting yourself in the foot if you do that ! you want the easiest flow into and out of an engine ....and I had to agree !
....
later all
Bob.....
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Old December 23rd, 2021, 03:42 PM   #12
DannoXYZ
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Let's see your fill-up and MPG logs for that Pinto.

I got 500-bhp once from my pre-gen Ninja by running it with mix of cough-syrup and rubbing-alcohol. My neighbor only got 400-bhp from his with molasses and rum because mixture was too thick to fully vapourise.

Back-pressure is out-dated idea as exhaust-pressure is not constant. Modern knowledge and current tuning idea is called pulse-tuning. At certain times, there's pressure in exhaust, other times, there's vacuum. You want to time things so vacuum pulls exhaust out of cylinder just as exhaust valve opens.
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Old December 23rd, 2021, 06:23 PM   #13
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Some very interesting facts and theories being presented in this thread.
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Old December 23rd, 2021, 10:35 PM   #14
Bob KellyIII
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Name: Robert
Location: Weed, California.
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Motorcycle(s): 2012 Kawasaki Ninja 250R, 2021 CSC TT250, 1977 Triumph Bonneville 750cc,2001 Honda XR650L.

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Yes but unfortunately not everyone will believe what I state as FACT because I have no DATA to back it up... i just say it is so and that means nothing to some
I don't lie I have been taught better than that and I am a man of my word
if people don't believe what I say they are out of luck ...that's all !
I cannot prove it.
While Danno religates what I say to "Fanciful Dreams" or out and out lies
a few others might believe and Try to make one themselves ! that is my goal here.... I will help anyone I can in that endeavor !
.....
Bob.......
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Old January 22nd, 2022, 10:03 AM   #15
JohnnyBravo
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If you don’t have data you don’t have facts; not trying to knock you just stating facts.
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Old January 22nd, 2022, 12:01 PM   #16
Bob KellyIII
Retired motorcycle Mc.
 
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Name: Robert
Location: Weed, California.
Join Date: Jul 2021

Motorcycle(s): 2012 Kawasaki Ninja 250R, 2021 CSC TT250, 1977 Triumph Bonneville 750cc,2001 Honda XR650L.

Posts: A lot.
Data has to be gathered and planned for when your doing something for yourself there is no need for that !
I kept records on gas mileage and expenses for a long time but I lost all that in the Ranch fire.....
I think the reason most people doubt that Hydroxy gas will actually work is because of the cheepo fly by night sales things that are supposed to give you 20% better gas mileage and only produce .02 or .03 liters per minute of gas flow..... that small amount will barely improve the idle. yet alone improve gas mileage ! so it doesn't work. and all such devices are a lie !....
it takes a large volume to do any good at all.... as your engine needs a large volume of air and your trying to make that air explosive so it takes alot of it..... i would say at a bare minimum you need 2 LPM to begin to see any change at all and you can pipe that directly into the intake but that will not change your gas mileage at all... you have to lean out the fuel going to the engine if you want to save gas ! and even the mythbusters missed that part of it ! OF CORSE IT'S NOT GOING TO CHANGE THE GAS MILAGE if you don't reduce the glow of gas !!! think about it
..... the idea is if you reduce the flow of gas your engine won't run any more... because it is too lean... so you add the Hydroxy gas so it will run good again.... that is how you go about it. ! it's not rocket science it's common sense !
Bob...




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