EFI kit

[g21-30]

Just a brief side note. Those of you who use Sta-Bil might want to switch to Marine Sta-Bil! Much better product at fighting the alcohol in the gas.

[AMMOCAN]

Not only are fuel injectors prone to clog, but you may find yourself on the receiving end of one of these codes, which is directly from the 2008 EX250K8F manual.

The Service Codes that you may receive are:
11-main throttle sensor malfunction;
12-inlet air pressure sensor malfunction;
13-inlet air temp sensor malfunction;
14-water temp sensor malfunction;
21-crankshaft sensor malfunction;
24&25-speed sensor malfunction;
31-vehicle down sensor malfunction;
32-sub-throttle sensor malfunction;
33-oxygen sensor inactivation;
51-ignition coil #1 primary winding malfunction;
52-ignition coil #2 primary winding malfunction;
56-radiator fan relay malfunction;
62-sub-throttle valve actuator malfunction;
64-air switching valve malfunction;
67-oxygen sensor heater malfunction;
94-oxygen sensor malfunction

However, no service codes will be reported for these issues:
1. FI Indicator Light
2. Fuel Pump
3. Fuel Pump Relay
4. ECU Main Relay
5. ECU Power Source Wiring and Ground Wiring
6. Fuel Injectors

Have fun and be sure to read the manual, as it is a good source to see what you might have to look forward to, as far as doing your own maintenance.

[Racer x]

As an auto tech for 30 years. I have worked through many changes in the auto industry. When people get a load of fuel injection problems they will want to convert back to carbs. The stock CV carbs work very well under a very wide veriety of conditions. I got 33 hp with them and rode in freezing temps. There are no wires or mystery boxes or anything else to go up. Just simple parts with holes that clog.

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by Racer x

As an auto tech for 30 years. I have worked through many changes in the auto industry. When people get a load of fuel injection problems they will want to convert back to carbs. The stock CV carbs work very well under a very wide variety of conditions. I got 33 hp with them and rode in freezing temps. There are no wires or mystery boxes or anything else to go up. Just simple parts with holes that clog.

I have yet to have any carb problems and I ride year round. For decades motorcycles and cars have had carbs with fewer problems than some of the sophisticated EFI and emissions systems they have today. A well tuned and properly maintained carb can be as good as EFI. I'd really like to hear from some more Ninjette owners, to hear if they have had any problems with there EFI systems. Who knows, the grass may not be always greener on the other side.

[ricochet08]

you guys are really starting to make me like carbs more and more.

honestly, i've been leaning towards fuel injected bikes JUST to get away from carbs. I hate using the choke. I'm just afraid of digging into the carbs, even with the DIYs here. I hope to one day get more familiar with my 250r.

[randomwalk101]

blahhh..just stay with carb...why spend more money

[Cuongism]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

blahhh..just stay with carb...why spend more money

Haha, coming from the guy who probably doesn't have anything left stock other than his carb and engine? I feel so behind you in mods...

[Nemesis]

Thanks for the entertainment guys. LOL!

[Racer x]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

blahhh..just stay with carb...why spend more money

I will not be able to get the air fuel ratio correct under boost with a carb.otherwise I would . :-}

[Indy250r]

http://www.stuntlife.com/forums/224-...50r-build.html

[Fly'in Ninja]

Originally Posted by Indy250r

http://www.stuntlife.com/forums/224-...50r-build.html

[red]

Originally Posted by kkim

you do realize, injectors can clog, too, right?

I know its possible, but I have never personally seen one that did. This is just my experience.

[kkim]

I've had multiple injectors get clogged in my Civics that I've owned.

Google it and you'll find most bikes w/ FI have to deal with this problem as well. Maybe not to the extent as a carbed bike, but don't think this will never be a problem just because you have EFI, is all I'm saying.

[Racer x]

I can't figure out the plumbing of that system . The turbo cold side is pointing down and the innercooler is just sitting there .and the big piece of muffler pipe with the air filter serves no purpose .I will be doing things different. First I am building a land speed racing bike not a street bike. I want the turbo as close to the engine as possible. That gives a hi speed hot exhaust pulse to the turbo. Also makes oiling better because it is well above the oil levelof the engine.I will mount the intercooler lower to act as a fairing behind the front wheel. My exhaust will only be 100 mm long and I intend to use a single throttle body on the inlet side of the turbo .I need a programable fuel injection system and ignition system and data logging with rpm air fuel ratio front and rear wheel speed and exhaust temp.the data and ignition system I have allready .This fuel system looks promising. But I need to talk to the people that make it.

[kkim]

I found this post rather informative as to what it's like to live with an EFI version of the 250R....
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showp...0&postcount=42

[AMMOCAN]

[wyckedflesh]

Something to keep in mind...

This is NOT an OEM system, so it is not constrained with EPA requirements, some of which limit how much adaptation the system is allowed to adjust to changes. ANY exhaust and intake that carries a CARB EO# will NOT need to have the ECM reflashed UNLESS the manufacturer specifically provides the flash. It is the EPA that causes an OEM system to be limited.

This system however, is NOT an OEM system. Comparing it to one is like comparing apples and pineapples...they both say "apple" in their name, but that is the extent of their similarities.

Is this conversion for everyone? Hell no. If your bike isn't broke, you live where you don't need to adjust things every few months because of weather, or you don't ride from Sea Level to 10K feet alot, then no, this mod is only something to do as a toy.

For someone who has to adjust the jetting for Summer and Winter, who hates the way the motor bogs when he goes to hit the run twisties because the jetting gets too rich. This is something to look at. Being able to plug a laptop in and switch to a map that is better suited for the Monday to Friday commute, then plug it back in and switch it to a Race Map that can be set to run Race Fuel is very pleasing.

If money wasn't so tight right now, I would be dropping $500 in a heart beat. Another $200 for Dyno tuning and I would be set.

A Microsquirt system is very easy to diagnose. Injectors themselves are easy to diagnose, but more importantly have very few issues. If I have the know how to install the system and tune it on the computer, diagnosing a problem will be simple.

[AMMOCAN]

To add to what wyckedflesh said, I would like to add some things that those of you who reside in California or any other C.A.R.B. State may want to think about.

1. Even though there isn't any required law to have motorcycles smog tested and inspected right now, they have been working on making this mandatory starting no later than 2012 for at least all model years 2000+.

2. Even if you don't have to get it inspected and smog tested until then it is still illegal to make any modification to your motorcycle, which directly effects the OEM emissions configuration and that does not have a CARB EO#. What this means is that at any time you are involved in an accident, pulled over by law enforcement, or have a complaint filed against you, you will be at risk of receiving a fine for having an illegal modification.

I know some of you absolutely don't care and will probably do it anyways considering you already made illegal modifications. However, if any other CARB State enforces the laws like they tend to do here in CALI, then there is a good chance you will be on the receiving end of a ticket at best sometime down the line, which is perfectly fine if you are willing to put up with that sort of headache and have the money to hand over.

3) There is a way that the manufacture of the EFI system to get it approved and receive a CARB EO#. The process is outlined on the ARB website. If I was one seriously thinking about getting this conversion and had that type of money to blow, then I would definitely get in contact with the company and inquire about wether or not they plan on doing this, especially when most of the highest populated States have already adopted the CARB standards.

[Cuongism]

Originally Posted by AMMOCAN

To add to what wyckedflesh said, I would like to add some things that those of you who reside in California or any other C.A.R.B. State may want to think about.

1. Even though there isn't any required law to have motorcycles smog tested and inspected right now, they have been working on making this mandatory starting no later than 2012 for at least all model years 2000+.

2. Even if you don't have to get it inspected and smog tested until then it is still illegal to make any modification to your motorcycle, which directly effects the OEM emissions configuration and that does not have a CARB EO#. What this means is that at any time you are involved in an accident, pulled over by law enforcement, or have a complaint filed against you, you will be at risk of receiving a fine for having an illegal modification.

I know some of you absolutely don't care and will probably do it anyways considering you already made illegal modifications. However, if any other CARB State enforces the laws like they tend to do here in CALI, then there is a good chance you will be on the receiving end of a ticket at best sometime down the line, which is perfectly fine if you are willing to put up with that sort of headache and have the money to hand over.

3) There is a way that the manufacture of the EFI system to get it approved and receive a CARB EO#. The process is outlined on the ARB website. If I was one seriously thinking about getting this conversion and had that type of money to blow, then I would definitely get in contact with the company and inquire about wether or not they plan on doing this, especially when most of the highest populated States have already adopted the CARB standards.

Has there been any updates that I haven't read about? I know the proposed bill in 2009 to require inspections did not pass. Instead, it gave CHP the authority to ticket for certain emission modifications. As of Sept 2010, Arnie signed a bill that requires bikes 2013 and newer to have EPA stickers on the exhausts, but this doesn't affect any older bikes.

Technically speaking, almost every aftermarket exhaust is illegal since full exhausts removes both catalytic converters (and every pipe is generally louder). I haven't really heard of anyone being ticketed for this yet though. I am curious if the EFI kit actually makes the bike more green as most FI equivalents are.

related thread:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...ght=inspection

[AMMOCAN]

Yes, you are correct that the original bill was amended and thus the smog testing didn't pass, which is why I said they were working on it, as I have recently heard that because of the change in Sacramento both C.A.R.B. and other EPA activists are gearing up for another round due to the current proposed support of both State and Federal legislatures.

I didn't mention anything about the so called 'Approved Exhaust Identification' law because IMHO it is irrelevant to the topic at hand. However, for those of you interested here is a good article explaining it: Exhaust Law

Again, regardless if they ever pass a mandatory smog test and full inspection into law or not it is still illegal to modify the emissions equipment put on a motorcycle by the manufacture according to C.A.R.B. regulations and you can be ticketed and fined for it.

[wyckedflesh]

Originally Posted by AMMOCAN

To add to what wyckedflesh said, I would like to add some things that those of you who reside in California or any other C.A.R.B. State may want to think about.

1. Even though there isn't any required law to have motorcycles smog tested and inspected right now, they have been working on making this mandatory starting no later than 2012 for at least all model years 2000+.

EHHH! Next Victim!

Arizona has areas that require smog testing of Motorcycles, Phoenix being one of them.

Fortunately, the state is in the process of having that requirement put to rest as they have PROVEN that motorcycles are not enough of a pollutant in a Major Metropolitan area that has a Year Round riding season to make up 1% of the gross emissions.

Several States already implement "Safety" inspections that do cover things like exhaust and airbox mods which are violations of the "alteration or modification of emission control systems".

[spooph]

All you FI denouncers obviously haven't ridden in the mountains... I can't wait to see this system works so I can get my hands on one. To have the bike running right at 5,000, 10,000, 13,000 feet would be awesome!

[CThunder-blue]

Originally Posted by Racer x

I can't figure out the plumbing of that system . The turbo cold side is pointing down and the innercooler is just sitting there .and the big piece of muffler pipe with the air filter serves no purpose .

I was confused at first too, but from what it looks like, the turbo sucks in air thru the filter, then outputs thru that pipe that looks like an exhaust pipe, but is actually the hot side, which then runs to the IC. The IC looks to be directly bolted to the TB. The exhaust isn't bolted on yet. You can see there's nothing on the other side and can plainly see the heat shield on the right fairing. Too bad that thread is from 09 and was never updated.

[Racer x]

The curved pipe is definitly going to the IC but that would be still cold side. The out side of the IC is what is not clear .yes the exhaust is not finished. The oil lines are all hooked up. I have seen a video of the bike running on the dyno. But they did not show the system. I would love some details

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by spooph

All you FI denouncers obviously haven't ridden in the mountains... I can't wait to see this system works so I can get my hands on one. To have the bike running right at 5,000, 10,000, 13,000 feet would be awesome!

Preach it brother! Mine starts crapping out around 5,000 feet ASL.

Funny thing is I took my bike up to Tahoe to help fine tune the carbs. The idea wasn't to tune for Tahoe, but exaggerate the problems I was having to help pinpoint them. There was construction near the summit, and traffic was stopped.... I was concerned I wouldn't be able to get it moving... it was tough, but I did get it to roll. So yes, next bike will have EFI, but I'm going to watch how others do with a retro kit for awhile.

[choneofakind]

Honestly, the efi kit is cool, but how much would it cost to sell your ninja, and then import one from europe? Maybe you'd pay a bit more for the import, but you'd get a proven system that you wouldnt have to tweak and tune without any help, and there is a power commander for use with an FI ninja 250 that would be usable with all exhaust/intake mods you do. So IMHO, just skip the kit step, and import a euro-spec 250R. Seems easier to me.

[CThunder-blue]

Originally Posted by Racer x

The curved pipe is definitly going to the IC but that would be still cold side. The out side of the IC is what is not clear .yes the exhaust is not finished. The oil lines are all hooked up. I have seen a video of the bike running on the dyno. But they did not show the system. I would love some details

No, the curved pipe is the hotside of the IC system since it comes off the turbo. The other end of the IC would get attached to the throttle body. Looks like they just didn't have a pipe fabricated for it yet in the pics posted.

[spooph]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Honestly, the efi kit is cool, but how much would it cost to sell your ninja, and then import one from europe? Maybe you'd pay a bit more for the import, but you'd get a proven system that you wouldnt have to tweak and tune without any help, and there is a power commander for use with an FI ninja 250 that would be usable with all exhaust/intake mods you do. So IMHO, just skip the kit step, and import a euro-spec 250R. Seems easier to me.

I think you need to check into some numbers.... The extra costs (shipping, taxes, certifications, etc) would be as much as the bike itself.... I'd rather go with the kit, and then know how it works so I can tune it to what I want....

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by spooph

I think you need to check into some numbers.... The extra costs (shipping, taxes, certifications, etc) would be as much as the bike itself.... I'd rather go with the kit, and then know how it works so I can tune it to what I want....

But what about only importing only the OEM FI parts?

[Bo0stZomb13]

Originally Posted by CZroe

But what about only importing only the OEM FI parts?

I was tring to find info on that also. There is a guy up here (in the marines now but was navy) with a FI 250r.

[choneofakind]

Well I don't know if importing the whole bike would cost more than the bike necessarily. I have a friend and her dad has an old-school mini cooper (right side drive, go cart tires, fun car) that they payed about 2000 to import from England. I mean right now I can't afford that, but later on in life when I don't want to futz with carbs, that might not be too much

[spooph]

Originally Posted by CZroe

But what about only importing only the OEM FI parts?

A possibility for sure, but when I had my local Kawi shop price out the entire system with new parts it was going to run me $1,200 plus shipping.... What WOULD be nice is to find somebody who can scour junkyards for wrecked 250FI's, rip off the parts, and ship them to the states....

[HKr1]

Originally Posted by spooph

All you FI denouncers obviously haven't ridden in the mountains... I can't wait to see this system works so I can get my hands on one. To have the bike running right at 5,000, 10,000, 13,000 feet would be awesome!

I just denounce CV carbs! Keihin CR's and Flatslides kick mother fooking asss in the mountains For that matter sea level too... you just walk away from another bike running CV's

[randomwalk101]

I'd rock stock FI parts. This company has no phone contact for sales/tech supports. Also not sure of quality of the kit. I think we should not press our luck.

[almost40]

Interesting observation after reading this thread.

Old guys (like myself and KKim) have no problem with a carb
Young guys....... like FI
Could it be that the old guys had cars and trucks long before FI was an everyday product on cars??
FI is good for everyday use, cold starting etc etc.
Take and FI bike to the strip and youll get hammered on buy a guy who properly tuned his carb. (for less than $20 in jets and needels)
Goto any dragstrip and look under the hoods. 95% of the cars that dont have a turbo or supercharger have a big fat carb bolted to the top of the manifold.
Why is that?? Ease of use, cost, tunability, simplicity and most importantly more power down the track.

Dont get me wrong, an expensive and properly tuned EFI system will make as much HP as a carb. (in most cases) The problem is, that it will cost you thousands and thousands of dollars and countless hours of tuning with a laptop and a dyno to get that EFI system to make those big numbers.

For those of you who dont have any carb tuning experience. Carbs are NOT complicated. Yes, they need to be maintained. Yes, they SEEM complicated. THEY ARE NOT.
The only real plus to an EFI system is if it adjusts for altitude. If it doesnt adjust (closed loop) there is no real benefit to spending the $800 for FI.
IMO of course.

[AzEKnightz]

Originally Posted by almost40

Interesting observation after reading this thread.

Old guys (like myself and KKim) have no problem with a carb
Young guys....... like FI
Could it be that the old guys had cars and trucks long before FI was an everyday product on cars??
FI is good for everyday use, cold starting etc etc.
Take and FI bike to the strip and youll get hammered on buy a guy who properly tuned his carb. (for less than $20 in jets and needels)
Goto any dragstrip and look under the hoods. 95% of the cars that dont have a turbo or supercharger have a big fat carb bolted to the top of the manifold.
Why is that?? Ease of use, cost, tunability, simplicity and most importantly more power down the track.

Dont get me wrong, an expensive and properly tuned EFI system will make as much HP as a carb. (in most cases) The problem is, that it will cost you thousands and thousands of dollars and countless hours of tuning with a laptop and a dyno to get that EFI system to make those big numbers.

For those of you who dont have any carb tuning experience. Carbs are NOT complicated. Yes, they need to be maintained. Yes, they SEEM complicated. THEY ARE NOT.
The only real plus to an EFI system is if it adjusts for altitude. If it doesnt adjust (closed loop) there is no real benefit to spending the $800 for FI.
IMO of course.

Personally, I agreed with you stating that it cost MUCH less to tune a carb than EFI. Yes it's cheaper, but it having a choke in the morning wasting gas, polluting air is a big no no.

I know I might not know bikes alot since I just started and got my license not too long ago. But I am strongly believe that EFI is a MUCH better and efficient because I fixes cars daily as a professional(I own an auto repair shop).

Why? First thing many would say, NO choke necessary. Just the couple minutes without the usage of a choke already spare quite a bit of air and not necessary for "spare the air days."

Secondary, efficiency. With a properly operating o2 system, the fuel/air ratio is constantly changing to adapt to altitudes, air intake, temperature, speed and many more.

You stated that why most drag strips has cars with carbs in them? Well, here's my question. Why all cars have EFI on a race track?

Personally, there is nothing wrong with either system. But if you were want to have better air for the later generations EFI or even hybrids would be a better choice.

Sooner or later, all carbs will be gone from the auto/bike market I guaranteed you.

-AzEKnightz

[caliente103]

Just found this looks like the same kit
http://ecotrons.com/Kawasaki_Ninja_250cc_EFI_kit.html

[Racer x]

This is the same kit. But plug and play?You have to weld in two O2 sensors. And then the return line hs to go back to the tank I guess .and then there is the map sensor. Two manifolds and one sensor. It looks good though.

[g21-30]

^^You can avoid the welding by using the clamp on bungs mentioned by kbryant of Area P in other discussions!

That kit looks good, but they don't mention the price of the optional recommended CDI.

[randomwalk101]

Originally Posted by caliente103

Just found this looks like the same kit
http://ecotrons.com/Kawasaki_Ninja_250cc_EFI_kit.html

Ahh..a US company..much better. Nice looking kit.