Ticketed for High Beams

[phr3ek]

Originally Posted by Too40gawlf

And commit two violations instead of one?

I.) illegal lane change (provided there is 3 or more lanes on the road youre on): moving from the left turn lane to the furthest most right lan in one motion.

II.) suppose after you make youre right, the road you're own has double yellow lines - now your U-turn is illegal.

i have been in traffic school and the book they go by, which court is also bound to go with, regardless of what the DMV handbook says

I.)in that book, it states that you MAY make a right turn, even if you are in the left turn lane, as long as it is safe to do so

II.)in the book, it states that you MAY cross a double yellow line IF its a left or right turn, NOT a u-turn
so the solution is, turn into a driveway and just back out.....


here's a bonus fact:

intersections with cameras for red light runner's
if the first picture captures you before the line, and the 2nd pic captures you after the line, you will get a ticket
but, if the 1st pic captures you AFTER the line, and of course the 2nd pic also be after the line (DU'H), you CAN fight it in court and win
the book states, for speed cameras, the 1st pic HAS TO HAVE you behind the line for the ticket to be valid

but if a cop see's you, you're screwed either way

[phr3ek]

Originally Posted by Too40gawlf

In the US? Is that Federal law? If so, I would be really, really curious to see the Federal code for that.

whoops
let me rephrase that, in CALI
idk about other states

[Too40gawlf]

Originally Posted by kaiserz

yes at night XD

For the record, the MSF Basic Rider Course Handbook, Edition 7.1, January 2007 (the latest and only edition I have in my possession); 'Night Riding' section; p36 says:

"Use the motorcycle's lights wisely, particularly the highbeam."

On p26, 'Being Visible' section, it states:

"Ride with the headlight on during the daytime".

While both statements are open to interpretation, to me it seems to be a tacit condoning of high beam use without making a clearly defined statement which would allow anti-motorcyclists to say "The MSF is advocating the breaking of the law."

[phr3ek]

courts dont go by what the handbook states
they go by a different book, i forgot what its called, but its a big ass book about 3 inches thick

i wanna take traffic school again so i can find out and buy said book

[sergemoat]

Actually only nine states have laws that say motorcyclists can run red lights if they are not recognized by the sensors

Oklahoma (2010)
Missouri (2009)
South Carolina (2008)
North Carolina (2007)
Wisconsin (2006)
Idaho (2006)
Arkansas (2005)
Tennessee (2003)
Minnesota (2002)

Georgia, Kansas, and Virginia are working on it.

you could try to argue that since the light doesnt recognize you the light is 'broken' and should be treated as an all way stop but good luck.

[Too40gawlf]

Originally Posted by phr3ek

courts dont go by what the handbook states
they go by a different book, i forgot what its called, but its a big ass book about 3 inches thick

i wanna take traffic school again so i can find out and buy said book

I think you're talking about the state's vehicle code. And no argument there. My point is that as a rider you are sacrificing safety to a degree to comply with a law that really doesnt take into account your circumstances as a rider. Maybe, Im just not perceptive as others, but Ive never noticed a detrimental effect from motorcycle highbeams on my vision. Highbeams from cars, definitely yes, but not bikes.

The other facet of my point is that if in fact it is safer to ride with a high beam on and that is what is being taught by profesional motorcycle instructors, then I dont care what the law says, Im erring on the side of my safety unless there is a real detriment to other drivers on the road - and as it stands I dont feel motorcycle highbeams endager other drivers.

I'd be curious to know, is there ANY motorcycle group or instructor that says NOT to ride with highbeams?

[Boom King]

Both sides make valid points here regarding high beam use. As a community of motorcyclists I believe we can all understand the good natured intentions of everyone's comments who are only looking out for each other. It was the same deal when I was a cyclist living in a congested urban city.

Again, I will say that it is not the purpose of the MSF or any handbook to teach you the laws. It is up to you to understand your local laws before you go out to ride. Whether you choose to obey certain laws is up to you but as others have stated be prepared to own up to the consequences if that time comes. There are good cops, there are bad cops, and there are the dickheads. It's like any other profession. Trying to guess which one is in your rear view is a game that may not always end up with a pleasant experience.

I'm not advocating a hard stance against high beam use myself. I have used them and will continue to use them when appropriate. Your safety when riding should always be the greatest priority. That being said, I still believe in having respect for the law and respect for others on the road. It's a balancing act that as a motorcyclist you have to pay greater attention to. Ride safe everyone and have fun .

[kkim]

Originally Posted by kaiserz

yes at night XD

I specifically asked the instructor during my advanced MSF course about high beam use. He said that during the daylight hours, he would highly recommend leaving it on, but at night, to go by the same rules/laws as any other vehicle. leaving your high beam on to oncoming traffic poses a safety hazard as you blind other drivers. I highly support the officer's decision to ticket high beam use at night to oncoming traffic.

[CZroe]

Even though I lived in GA I went to WV to pick up my bike from the dealer. I had a brother there who had just purchased a KLR650 (not his first bike) and was giving me new rider tips. The first thing he told me is to use my high beams at all times, day or night. I knew that behavior wouldn't fly just anywhere but he insisted. I decided I would do that to satisfy him on the ride from the dealer to his place but never since. Actually, that was daylight and I do frequently use it during the day. I rode 600 miles home the next day and when night fell I turned them off for traffic like I was supposed to do. I've never heard anyone say to do that regardless of the law since.

I worked 12hr security shifts in Peachtree City, GA and had to use my car to circle the building in the rain at one point during my shift. I realized that my headlight was blown during that round and noted it. PTC police are notorious for warning or citing any violation they see, so my coworkers piqued up and said "you know you aren't going to make it out of the city [home] without getting pulled over, right?" Well, I only had to go a couple blocks to be out of the city and I actually made it only to realize that I still had the guard keys. I made a U-turn at the very next opportunity and returned only to get pulled over on my way back. My coworkers listened to everything on the police scanner and were laughing when I walked back in. The officer only gave me a warning but it very nearly turned into a citation. Basically, I replaced the bulb the very next day and it blew almost right away. I didn't realize how sensitive they were to being touched and may have contaminated the bulb when installing it. Anyway, I got pulled over again and they looked at the warning I already had in the system and told me that they would have to issue a citation. Before they did though I found the replacement bulb's box and receipt along with the old blown bulb showing that I had just replaced it earlier that day. Thank goodness for being too messy to deal with that stuff earlier (found them under the seat). After that they allowed me to go on without issuing a citation.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

Turn right, then U turn.

Every place I try that in SD sends me miles away due to intersection after intersection with "U-turn prohibitted" signs. Half the time, I end up being forced into several more turns and stuck at ANOTHER insensitive light. It's infuriating.

[rusninja]

Originally Posted by phr3ek

the law, in CALI (idk about whole US), states that if that were the case, after 3 min. has elapsed of you waiting there, you MAY run a red light, given that it is safe to do so

cali has some of the lames car laws but motorcycles get it all lane spliting running red lights makes you feel important

[Havok]

Originally Posted by phr3ek

courts dont go by what the handbook states
they go by a different book, i forgot what its called, but its a big ass book about 3 inches thick

i wanna take traffic school again so i can find out and buy said book

I have to do traffic school for a speeding ticket, go for me.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by rusninja

cali has some of the lames car laws but motorcycles get it all lane spliting running red lights makes you feel important

Atually, because I saw that rule in other states, I specifically looked for it in CA and could not find it. I think we've been misinformed here.

[Too40gawlf]

Originally Posted by CZroe

Atually, because I saw that rule in other states, I specifically looked for it in CA and could not find it. I think we've been misinformed here.

whoops... wrong reply.

[n4mwd]

Are you sure he was a real cop? Even if he is, it sounds like he is singling out bikers. Its definitely worth going to court over. Do some research. Go to the clerk of the court and get a list of the types of vehicles that he has ticketed in the last 6 months and for what.

If you can show prejudice against bikers, then that could be grounds for dismissal.

In FL, cops are not allowed to break the law just because they are cops. You said that the cop sped past you and then rapidly decelerated. Assuming that you were going the speed limit, that means that he was speeding. If he knew for a fact in advance that you were riding with high beams, he would have simply pulled you over. Slamming on the brakes on the interstate is also illegal in some states.

In other words, the cop broke the law in order to catch you. Anything he discovered as a result of that is called "Fruit of the poisonous tree" and is not admissible as evidence or testimony.

Now the cop CAN go faster than the speed limit to catch someone he already knows has committed a crime (such as from a radar gun) or if he is on route to an emergency. But speeding just because is not allowed.

Also, low beams are angled to the right. That means that someone on the side of the road will perceive that you have high beams on even when you don't. So the only way he could know for sure was to be directly in front of you.

Good luck. I hope you fight it and win.

[noche_caliente]

Originally Posted by sergemoat

Actually only nine states have laws that say motorcyclists can run red lights if they are not recognized by the sensors

Oklahoma (2010)
Missouri (2009)
South Carolina (2008)
North Carolina (2007)
Wisconsin (2006)
Idaho (2006)
Arkansas (2005)
Tennessee (2003)
Minnesota (2002)

Georgia, Kansas, and Virginia are working on it.

you could try to argue that since the light doesnt recognize you the light is 'broken' and should be treated as an all way stop but good luck.

Passed in Virginia 2 months ago

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by noche_caliente

Passed in Virginia 2 months ago

Also, I read that you treat it as a malfunctioning light in GA and procede with caution after yielding when I first started researching the bike in early 2008.

[TrueFaith]

In Massachusetts the DMV "strongly suggests" that motorcyclists use their high beams for added visibility during daylight hours.
I have never read anything that condones the constant use of high beams at night by motorcyclists. That's absurb as well as dangerous and I doubt the MSF would condone something like that.

[ladyrocket]

I usually leave them on during the day, if I got pulled over I will pull the "little girl on a streetbike didnt know cuz she was focusing on the road" excuse

[onizthegnome]

cagers are always high beaming me from every direction, so unfair

[Too40gawlf]

Originally Posted by TrueFaith

In Massachusetts the DMV "strongly suggests" that motorcyclists use their high beams for added visibility during daylight hours.
I have never read anything that condones the constant use of high beams at night by motorcyclists. That's absurb as well as dangerous and I doubt the MSF would condone something like that.

That seems like an opinion stated as fact.

[ally99]

Is there anyway we could add a poll to this thread asking:

Do you ride with your brights on?

Never
Sometimes
Often
Always

...or something to that effect? I know how to create polls in a new thread, but since this thread is on the topic, it would be great if we could add one. Alex, if not possible, let me know and I'll start a new thread.

[RhinoJC]

Turning your highbeams off at night while approaching another vehicle is a law for several reasons.

There is a difference between high and low beams, and it isn't just the brightness. Both lowbeams in a vehicle are pointed down at the road with the driver lowbeam pointed slightly towards the passenger side of the vehicle. High beams are points straight ahead and even pointed slightly up in some vehicles. It's the same with bikes. Lowbeam points down, highbeam points straight ahead or slightly up.

Aside from the highbeam potentially blinding someone, the light being pointed directly at them is going to cause them to lose their night vision, which takes several minutes to regain. Also, a bright light at night causes fixation, which is a BAD thing. It's a term referred to as headlight hypnosis (deer in the headlights), where the driver of the oncoming vehicle fixates on the bright light. As anyone with an ounce of riding experience knows, if you fixate on something you begin to move towards it, even in a cage. Next time you're driving at night and you see a vehicle approaching you with bright headlights, take note of where you are in the lane. Once the vehicle passes, check again. Unless you're making a conscious effort not to, you'll usually find yourself closer to the center line than you were when you first noticed the vehicle.

How many times have you been driving at night and seen a light in an oncoming lane and not known whether it was a vehicle or a light on the side of the road until you were nearly on top of it? Switching from your high beam to your low beam will get you recognized as a moving object a lot faster than simply leaving your highbeam on.

Using your highbeam during the day doesn't cause any of the problems it does at night but again gets you identified as a moving object. Since the light is pointed directly at drivers, even the slightest bump in the road or movement of the bike will cause that highbeam to have a flicker effect, identifying you as a moving object.

As riders we need to get ourselves noticed as moving objects because a moving object is a threat, not have people fixating on us.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by RhinoJC

Using your highbeam during the day doesn't cause any of the problems it does at night but again gets you identified as a moving object. Since the light is pointed directly at drivers, even the slightest bump in the road or movement of the bike will cause that highbeam to have a flicker effect, identifying you as a moving object.

I was wondering hat caused that. I thought it was headlight modulators.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by ally99

Is there anyway we could add a poll to this thread asking:

Do you ride with your brights on?

Never
Sometimes
Often
Always

Done.

[Xoulrath]

I voted "Sometimes". When I ride at night, which I enjoy, but don't have a need to do very often, I use my brights as I would in a car. That is to say, I only use them when no one else is affected by them.

During the day I really don't think about it. Until AFTER someone tries to kill me. I have had drivers pull the infamous left less than 100 ft from me a number of times. A couple of these times by the same gentleman. I noticed he stopped so I turned around and asked him what just happened. He said he didn't see me (both times). So after an event like that happens, I usually turn on the bright during the day and for a day or two after. I don't do it all the time though, because I just don't think about it most of the time.

[rockNroll]

In SC we can go through the red light after waiting 2 minutes. I ride with stock high beams except at night with oncoming traffic or if I'm following traffic. If I have HID's or aftermarket "white" lamps then I use high beams only at night on boonie roads.

[wyckedflesh]

Just to comment to the OP...

When you are approaching another vehicle off to the side, flip off your highbeam, then turn it back on when you pass, if you get passed, turn off your highbeam as they pass, then turn it back on once they are well ahead of you.

Why?
When they are off to the side of the road at night, your highbeam could momentarily blind them if they are outside the vehicle and create a very dangerous situation. When a car passes, its very possible to "Double Blind" them when the light from your highbeam hits both their Rearview AND their side view mirrors which again can create a dangerous situation, especially if your on a curve.

Now if you think back, there has been a lot of talk about illegal mods on bikes and cars in Cali and here in AZ. By the book, they can not pull you over with out "probable cause" such as a moving violation like a misuse of highbeam citation. This gives the officer a reason to look over your bike. With the debate over bikes v cars on emissions, more officers are going to be equipped with sound meters, and some jurisdictions have begun to look into Mobile Emissions vans...IE vans and semis that can be set up to do a roadside smog check.

IF these come about, you can bet moe and more "annoyance" type moving violations will get enforced. On top of this, you can look at how effectively Sheriff Joe Arpio here in Maricopa county has used "annoyance" violations to crack down on both Fugitives with outstanding warrants AND apprehension of illegal aliens. Something he has been getting massive fire over since when his sweeps happen in low income areas, where the demographics are rich in a particular nationality, the number of violators of the nationality arrested and cited makes one think of racial profiling...

But no one screams when he does these sweeps in a higher income, more spread demographic and the tickets, violations and arrests are spread across the map...

Anyways, the point is, getting pulled over for an "annoyance" violation is often used to inspect for more serious violations.


BTW, here in Arizona, Motorcycle Enforcement is handled by the Gang Task Force...

Just some food for thought...

Oh yeah, I think a new line on the poll should be "When Prudent" because here in Maricopa County when driving in "Incorporated" areas it is ILLEGAL to operate a vehicle with the high beams on at night, period. You can legally operate a vehicle in "Unincorporated" areas provided you follow the safety guidelines.

How do you know the difference? Incorporated areas are well light with street lights. Unincorporated areas are sparsely lit with street lights or have no street lights at all. A year ago, if I went two blocks North I went from Incorporated to Unincorporated...In that last year, the area north of me for 2 miles has been made Incorporated. It was not uncommon on some nights to hear a PA announcement for someone to "turn off your highbeams in town". That rule also applies to the Highways and freeways that pass through Phoenix.

[Boom King]

This is why even proper aiming of your low beam lights are important.

[Cedilla]

I ride with my high beams on always during the day, and most of the time at twilight(because thats the most dangerous time for visibility). At night I use low beams unless i'm in a rural area.

When I use my high beams at twilight I'm unsure of the legality of it so I turn off the high beams when I see a cop.

[ally99]

Hey all. I do VERY little nighttime driving, just during the 2-3 months where my morning commute to work is dark. To be honest, I've always kept my brights on 100% of the time, so based on past riding, I should have voted "always", however, after reading everyone's opinions, I've thought a lot about the very infrequent dark riding I do, and I completely see everyone's point about not driving with brights on at night. I'd never really thought about it making me less noticeable as a moving vehicle, but it makes sense.
So I voted based on my views as of now and future. I'll always keep my brights on during the day b/c it's worked for me so far. People tend to see me, though I still ride like I think they can't. During the months of dark morning commutes to work, however, I'll use my brights as I would in a car. Thanks for everyone's well-thought-out responses to the OP!

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Alex

Done.

Thanks Alex!

[alex.s]

nice poll. i agree with most the others- don't blind people, it just pisses them off. i think you may have taken the officers actions in offense instead of what he may have been trying to do... the light was just reason for him to check you out. they do this alot to make sure people aren't drunk late at night in my area. after you pulled over, he saw your bike wasn't perfect so he assumed your riding isn't perfect. citations are motivation not to do things that are widely agreed to be either unsafe or annoying to those around you. the fact that he actually waited for you to take off i think says a lot about his intentions... i think he was just trying to give you a hard time to motivate you to get better. its not a bad ticket, especially compared to some of the citations i've received... i'm sure phr3ek knows what i'm talking about.

might i suggest an alteration to the poll? instead of "sometimes", have it be "when i'm not blinding someone and i need the brights to actually see" just an idea.

[infinitethrill]

Due Date 07/05/2011

1. PAY $235.00
2. PAY $292.00 to attend traffic school.


Huh. Doesn't say why. How about I instead use the money to buy a Shoei rf1100 that fits me. In Neon Orange of course. Either way, I am so fighting this.

[exploring/carolina]

Run high beams during daylight hours, hardly ride at night, but use low beams around other traffic at night.

[wtfh4xx]

Definitely bullshit ticket
a few observations...

1. Him passing you on the right. Isnt this illegal in your state?
2. Police officer speeding and maneuvers are aggressive and distracting to your focus on the road and working your bike.
3.You should always turn off your highbeam before any car passes you on any side. I think you know this.

From his side he might have thought you were running your highbeam at him for speeding by so quickly in the right lane and felt like punishing you.

Either way I'd probably just pay the ticket and get over it.
Just follow all the laws all the time on the road, no matter how lame they are.
Blinker every lane change, full stops at signs (ur wheels gotta stop moving), etc.
Then the police should have no means to harass you and generate some revenue.

my 2c

edit:
oh and $4xx is nothing, run a red light camera and its $480 for that.
Then $60-80 in court fees
oh yeah and finally driving school so it don't **** your insurance $260.
shits lame

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by infinitethrill

Due Date 07/05/2011

1. PAY $235.00
2. PAY $292.00 to attend traffic school.


Huh. Doesn't say why. How about I instead use the money to buy a Shoei rf1100 that fits me. In Neon Orange of course. Either way, I am so fighting this.

I'm not familiar with CA laws. Does that mean you have to chose 1 or 2 or do both? In FL, if you get a ticket, you'll usually get bombarded with solicitations from lawyers offering to fix it for you. I haven't used one myself, but I have heard nothing but positive comments. Usually, the lawyer gets around $100 and the state nothing. Again, I'm not sure how things work out there.

I do know that for an infraction, you are guilty until proven innocent. Basically, the judge is going to make the assumption that everything the cop says is true and everything you say is a lie. You must prove the cop was wrong for giving you a ticket.

Basically, what you need to do is get the cop to testify that he pulled in front of you and that you were going the speed limit. That means that he went faster than the speed limit. He's not allowed to break the law to catch someone. However, if you said anything to the cop after you got stopped, you can be sure that he will be repeating it to the judge if it will make things worse for you.

Personally, I think that a fine of more than $10 for driving with the bright lights on is a violation if the US constitution's 8th amendment. Honestly, I think something needs to be done to reel in the states abuse of power.

[Murtasma]

Damn sorry for you luck. While technically what you did is against the law (retarded law since trucks/suvs always seem to have their high beams on, if they aren't on they are at the exact level of your eyes and are very distracting when you have some jerk off tail gating you).

To me it sounds like you got pulled over by an asshole cop looking to hassle someone enjoying two wheels. He should have just given you a warning and let you be on your way but seeing as how it looks like they were pulling over bikes around that time you could have probably been riding perfectly with no high beams and they would have pulled you over for an improperly tied shoe.

If only you had a video camera mounted on your bike you could prove the officer was breaking the law when he pulled you over. I bet he speed up to get in front of you so he could claim the bright distracting lights were too much for his hang over.

[Linuss]

I have my brights on at ALL times when on my bike, for 3 reasons:

1) During the day, as people just seem to notice me better with both being on (who woulda thunk people noticed a bright light?)

2) At night, because again, people notice me better, and I can see further than the pitiful single light when driving at 4am.

3) I hate being told I have a headlight out.




And knock on wood, I've yet to be pulled over for the brights, even with a handful of cops being infront of me. Heck, I passed by one trooper who nodded and waved at me, and a bike cop who waved at me.

[NathanUc]

When I was taking my MSF course a few weeks back, I brought this up and was told if I received a ticket for high beams in a similar situation, I should bring the Indiana State Drivers manual to the court date and point out where it says when it's acceptable. Also, they told me in situations like that, to contact ABATE (Indiana's MSF program) and let them know as it's common from them support you in court to help protect your 'rights'.

Either way, that's a bogus fine for a bogus ticket. I hope it all works out for you.