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Old July 23rd, 2014, 06:07 PM   #161
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Racer X - I forgot if I asked you before but did you just drop in the intake cam or have to degree it?
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Old July 23rd, 2014, 07:13 PM   #162
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On the. 282 I deg the two intake cams. On the 265 I did not deg because I only have one set of sprockets. But I did open up the bolt hole and move the cams on a good direction. Don't know for sure what I set them at. I have not run either engine on the dyno. The 250 will get sprockets and I have two intake cams for that.

What was the question?
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Old July 24th, 2014, 06:01 AM   #163
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Let me jusst run a thought by you, Most of the heat in an engine is created in the combustion chamber, the oil picks up this heat as it runs back to the crank case, if I remove the eccess heat with the coolant that should elieviate the hot oil, correct?= bigger radiator?
I can't tell you how to solve the problem but hope to help clarify where the heat is coming from. In a way, all of the energy is coming from the combustion, yes.

But, very generally speaking, if you have 30 kW output on the crank, you are burning around 100 kW of fuel. That corresponds to about 11 - 12 L petrol per hour. (You will use more since you are running rich, but around 12 L is burnt, the rest is passing through unburnt.)

Some 30-35 kW will exit the engine as heat through the exhaust. An equal amount is produced inside the engine and has to be cooled off by the cooling system. Most if this is NOT coming from the heat in the combustion, from friction in the engine. The surface of the combustion chamber is small, so it passes less heat than you think. The main friction is from the main bearings and from the sideways force on the piston. The valve train takes a few hp at full rpm, which then turns to heat as well.

Finally a few kW will be used by auxilliaries such as the alternator, pumps and fans.
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Old July 24th, 2014, 06:04 AM   #164
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Could always run E85 if you were FI :-p Runs WAYYYY Cooler
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Old July 24th, 2014, 06:21 AM   #165
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So your problem is the maybe 30 - 40 kW internal heat produced in the engine. (Also assuming here that you are running WOT at most 80% of the lap?) A lot of this will first be taken up by the oil before it can be transferred to the coolant.

The increased stroke makes it worse, because the 300 rod has to be shorter and the crankshaft has a longer stroke, so the rod will be at a wider angle when the piston pushes downwards. So the friction will be higher. Kawasaki tried to partially reduce the angle by putting the piston pin higher up, so the rod could be 1 mm longer than if the 250 piston had been used.
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Old July 24th, 2014, 06:26 AM   #166
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The big challenge is keeping the exhaust valve cool. That is the max point of heat. 1000to 1200 deg blow torch on a 4mm valve stem. The cooling system is designed around the heads ability to cool. The rest is easy. Air could be used to cool bearings and pistons.
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Old July 24th, 2014, 07:30 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by rgx107 View Post
So your problem is the maybe 30 - 40 kW internal heat produced in the engine. (Also assuming here that you are running WOT at most 80% of the lap?) A lot of this will first be taken up by the oil before it can be transferred to the coolant.
So you would you say it's more of an oil cooling issue than a radiator issue then?

I was wondering what oil he was running, as a heavy oil will move slower and transfer less heat away than a thinner oil - but I haven't heard.

I would think an ester synthetic 10W-40 would be good, but it's possible a 30 might work better. Neither will breakdown from excessive heat. I would think a 50 would compound the cooling issue.

Thoughts?
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Old July 24th, 2014, 08:47 AM   #168
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So you would you say it's more of an oil cooling issue than a radiator issue then?

I was wondering what oil he was running, as a heavy oil will move slower and transfer less heat away than a thinner oil - but I haven't heard.

I would think an ester synthetic 10W-40 would be good, but it's possible a 30 might work better. Neither will breakdown from excessive heat. I would think a 50 would compound the cooling issue.

Thoughts?
As a general rule of thumb, engines that run high operating oil temperatures require higher viscosity oil. Even when you look at professional race engines (cars, trucks and motorcycles) they all run different viscosity oil based on the heat the engines generate.

Obviously in this case, the oil and coolant used were not sufficient enough to prevent catastrophic damage or they were not sufficiently cooled (due to low flow rates of both cooling system and oil pump). It is very possible that the oil used suffered shear-induced viscosity loss, which can happen in engines operating at high RPMs. Given the relatively short period in which this overheating occurred, too thin of viscosity oil is very likely. They don't make xxW-50 grade racing oil for nothing.

A few race teams that use 15W-50;

Crescent Suzuki/Rizla Suzuki Team in the British Superbike Championship
Triumph BE1 Team for Supersport World Championships, G-LAB Triumph for IDM Supersport, and Factory KTM Racing in Europe and United States in the factory SXF engines
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Old July 24th, 2014, 09:23 AM   #169
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As a general rule of thumb, engines that run high operating oil temperatures require higher viscosity oil. Even when you look at professional race engines (cars, trucks and motorcycles) they all run different viscosity oil based on the heat the engines generate.
I recently spoke with a pro engine builder that builds and tunes mostly Porsche race engine (some air cooled), his experience also include building top NASCAR engines.

He said they run mostly a 30-grade race oil in everything.

Reducing localized high oil temps requires flow. Flow does the cooling. Thinner oils flow better, which helps cooling and power.

As long as you have adequate oil pressure for the RPM, you won't benefit from a thicker oil than necessary.

EDIT: A lot of the thicker-is-better is from back-in-the day with conventional oils that would breakdown with excessive heat. When a conventional oil breaks down it drops to the low end (W rating) of its rating. That's why the Big Twin guys always go for 20W-50. When it overheats it's still a 20.

With current synthetic oil that doesn't happen. You can run a wide-range oil that flows better without the risk of it breaking down. It may shear down somewhat, but it's not going to drop to the low end of it's rating like conventional oil.
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Old July 24th, 2014, 12:44 PM   #170
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So you would you say it's more of an oil cooling issue than a radiator issue then?
...
Thoughts?
I was only trying to describe where the heat comes from and how much. And that the longer stroke / shorter rods of the 300 will produce slightly more heat compared to the 250 - even at the same power output.

From what Bruce wrote it looked like the coolant was boiling, then the head gasket blew.
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Old July 24th, 2014, 02:24 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by rgx107 View Post
So your problem is the maybe 30 - 40 kW internal heat produced in the engine. (Also assuming here that you are running WOT at most 80% of the lap?) A lot of this will first be taken up by the oil before it can be transferred to the coolant.

The increased stroke makes it worse, because the 300 rod has to be shorter and the crankshaft has a longer stroke, so the rod will be at a wider angle when the piston pushes downwards. So the friction will be higher. Kawasaki tried to partially reduce the angle by putting the piston pin higher up, so the rod could be 1 mm longer than if the 250 piston had been used.
precisely !! and in combination with Bruce's big bore 66mm hogh compression pistons, it all gets worse... same as was in my case.... all of those coming to be added to the previous issues we mentioned relevant to outdated oil pan cooling and low air flow, blah blah...
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Old July 24th, 2014, 02:39 PM   #172
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I was only trying to describe where the heat comes from and how much. And that the longer stroke / shorter rods of the 300 will produce slightly more heat compared to the 250 - even at the same power output..
well, not quite the case... you see you are right about extra friction because of the stroke and the big bore= more heat production, but the short rods help in other points to prevent overheatingwhich might take pages to write down... but the most important factor is that they stay for LESS TIME at the TDC than a longer rod (I am talking about rod length, not stroke...) which, besides needing less advance spark timing (which also affects heat production...) keeps piston "bouncing" less on the cylinder walls, thus producing more friction....
the thing in Bruce's case is that he is using alla that "super frictious" moving parts in a totally outdated casing with only 2 liters of oil to cool all that extra friction, without oil cooler, without fins under the oil pan, like the 300 etc, a relatively inadequate (for such a huge mod) radiator, an also outdated and low-rate water pump in combination with low moving speeds at high revs...
the 300 casing takes more oil (3L), cools it better (external filter, fins etc), has an upgraded water pump and radiator with heat shield etc so it can cope better with the longer stroke.... I have been dealing with the same issues myself so I eventually decided to move on to a whole 300 transplant...
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Old July 24th, 2014, 02:57 PM   #173
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As a general rule of thumb, engines that run high operating oil temperatures require higher viscosity oil. Even when you look at professional race engines (cars, trucks and motorcycles) they all run different viscosity oil based on the heat the engines generate.

Obviously in this case, the oil and coolant used were not sufficient enough to prevent catastrophic damage or they were not sufficiently cooled (due to low flow rates of both cooling system and oil pump). It is very possible that the oil used suffered shear-induced viscosity loss, which can happen in engines operating at high RPMs. Given the relatively short period in which this overheating occurred, too thin of viscosity oil is very likely. They don't make xxW-50 grade racing oil for nothing.

A few race teams that use 15W-50;

Crescent Suzuki/Rizla Suzuki Team in the British Superbike Championship
Triumph BE1 Team for Supersport World Championships, G-LAB Triumph for IDM Supersport, and Factory KTM Racing in Europe and United States in the factory SXF engines
well, again... yes and... no...
IMO it is true that higher viscocity prevent oil breakdown and it is most probably the best solution to go along if having overheating conditions...
but on the other hand it is also said that it makes engines less easy to rev and to be unable to cope with what is being called "high revving micro-friction"..
I can't describe exactly how that works since I have been reading about it in some science-automotive sites but from the little I can understand, the chemical reactions involved combined with heat, friction, aluminum and other metalic surfaces touching (or rather not touching but coming too close to one another) create yet unexplored phenomena even on atomic or nano-molecular basis !! I don't even know how that might apply on our modest mass-production engines but it seems that when we push them a bit too much, well it comes closer to having "phenomena" going on in that combustion chamber...

my "no" to your quote comes when comparing Cresent-Suzuki or any other team and engined that has been designed all along or even totally and specially redesigned to cope in race conditions considering in specific clearances, materials, heat-dissipation conditions etc, to our... 250-make-a-pocket-rocket-out of-it... I mean we want, I am at the beginning of my third project with that engine as a basis... but after all, there's just about that much it can take...
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Old July 24th, 2014, 03:05 PM   #174
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So you would you say it's more of an oil cooling issue than a radiator issue then?

I was wondering what oil he was running, as a heavy oil will move slower and transfer less heat away than a thinner oil - but I haven't heard.

I would think an ester synthetic 10W-40 would be good, but it's possible a 30 might work better. Neither will breakdown from excessive heat. I would think a 50 would compound the cooling issue.

Thoughts?
I bet I have covered your question in a pile of thoughts now...
the bottom line is Racer X is once again and in simple words right...
all that effort to cool down the combustion chamber with oil, water and air is just to protect mostly the exhaust valves from overheating and melting which take most of that heat and for longer than the rest of the chamber...
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Old July 24th, 2014, 05:35 PM   #175
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So, I have a wrecked ninja 500 in storage. I think Ill use the radiator off of that and an add on oil cooler and see what happens.
For the record I use Rotella synthetic in my bikes.
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Old July 24th, 2014, 08:21 PM   #176
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So, I have a wrecked ninja 500 in storage. I think Ill use the radiator off of that and an add on oil cooler and see what happens.
For the record I use Rotella synthetic in my bikes.
Because you are pushing it with this one, I would consider a Group V ester synthetic like Redline or Motul.

10W-40 would be safe, 10W-30 might be faster and may even provide better cooling.

T6 does shear down to a low 40/high 30 range fairly quickly, so an ester 30 isn't far off.
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Old July 25th, 2014, 01:02 AM   #177
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So, I have a wrecked ninja 500 in storage. I think Ill use the radiator off of that and an add on oil cooler and see what happens.
For the record I use Rotella synthetic in my bikes.
what oil cooler do you plan on using after all ??
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Old July 25th, 2014, 07:09 AM   #178
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Because you are pushing it with this one, I would consider a Group V ester synthetic like Redline or Motul.

10W-40 would be safe, 10W-30 might be faster and may even provide better cooling.

T6 does shear down to a low 40/high 30 range fairly quickly, so an ester 30 isn't far off.
I was thinking about this one last night after a bit. The T6 is a great oil for frequent OCI. It does seem to shear down a lot with some miles in a shared sump application. It does seem to me that there are superior oils out there, specifically the GV units you mentioned would be good although it doesn't seem to me that it would significantly help with the cooling issue.

One of the thought processes I was going through on this one was the the GV based oils are really good in terms of shear stability but generally lack anti-oxidation and additive packages that allow for longer OCI use.

On a track bike I tend to go through around 3 to 4 days between OCI. Depending on the bike and schedule that could be 3 months or so. Any issues with using a straight grade GV race oil sitting in the sump for that period. I mean sure it would be an awesome solution for 1 event 1 OCI but that would get really pricey really fast.
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Old July 26th, 2014, 10:06 AM   #179
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One idea I had a while ago. Look into automotive heater cores as a radiator. You might find an aluminum one twice as thick as stock for a low price.
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Old July 26th, 2014, 12:48 PM   #180
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One idea I had a while ago. Look into automotive heater cores as a radiator. You might find an aluminum one twice as thick as stock for a low price.
excuse me, I didn't quite get that one... what do you mean ?? could you post a picture of that or a link to sth relevant ?? and how exactly can a heater core work as a "cooler core" ??
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Old July 26th, 2014, 01:36 PM   #181
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The Heater core in a car is just a heat exchange unit. Hot water goes in one end and across a large surface are called a core . Air passing over the core and cools the water inside. The water exits the core at an lower temp than when it enters.

Custom motorcycle radiators are ver similar in size to the heater core inside a car. And the cost of even the Mose expensive Hester core is around 100 dollars. Having a custom made radiator could be five hundred dollars or more.
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Old July 26th, 2014, 03:29 PM   #182
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The Heater core in a car is just a heat exchange unit. Hot water goes in one end and across a large surface are called a core . Air passing over the core and cools the water inside. The water exits the core at an lower temp than when it enters.

Custom motorcycle radiators are ver similar in size to the heater core inside a car. And the cost of even the Mose expensive Hester core is around 100 dollars. Having a custom made radiator could be five hundred dollars or more.
I am new to engine modification, but I'm loving this thread. Did a quick search to learn more about Heater Cores and this seems like an awesome idea. Turns out they're used in liquid cooling for PC builds as well, and can even help a struggling radiator by venting heat via A/C in a pinch. So the function is there. I guess now it's a matter of testing the core's efficacy on a Ninja?
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Old July 26th, 2014, 05:44 PM   #183
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The trick is finding one that fits with the hoses in the proper location. I do a fair amount of them so I will keep my eyes open.
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Old July 26th, 2014, 06:15 PM   #184
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That's a good idea racerx. I have access to warehouse full of them. And seeing as though they are designed to remove heat from coolant to use to provide heat they are probably really efficient. I have seen air conditioning evaporator cores, out of cars, used as radiators on sled engines in midget dirt track racer cars.

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Old July 26th, 2014, 07:10 PM   #185
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The problem with A/c evaporates is the hose size.
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Old July 26th, 2014, 07:28 PM   #186
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The problem with A/c evaporates is the hose size.
Couldn't a radiator shop weld up the size fitting you need?
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Old July 27th, 2014, 12:09 AM   #187
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Ya but AC pipes are 1/4 inch and heater hoses are. 3/4 inch. Avoiding paying the welder is the point.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 06:18 PM   #188
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What about fitting like a 600 or 1000 radiator on the bike? I'm sure you could find one that fits, even if it does not have a port for the fan temp switch that could always be worked around with other options... Check out some of the ZX6r radiators, I'm sure it would be real easy to mount one up and you can pick one up for about $100-$150???

Something like this.....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KAWASAKI-ZX6...fd34f6&vxp=mtr
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Old July 27th, 2014, 06:48 PM   #189
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They're to wide. Something off a bigger twin would work. TL1000? I'm going to try this EX 500 one end see what happens.
I took the cylinder head off earlier and discovered 2 things. 1 the heard gasket let loose between the cylinders and 2 I am running to little squish, the piston is just hitting the head. Good news is I can fix both with a thicker custom copper head gasket.
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Old July 27th, 2014, 06:50 PM   #190
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Good deal! Thanks for the info!

It would be nice if someone had a "buddy" who could weld two 250 radiators together... would be nice...
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Old August 4th, 2014, 07:55 PM   #191
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This is awesome. Sorry to hear about the troubles.

Fyi, my bike runs hotter than stock as well. I run synthetic oil, cooler plugs and LP coolant to combat it.

I should make it to BHF this year yet. We should meet up.
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Old August 5th, 2014, 10:12 AM   #192
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I expected some problems. I can work through them. I think I am running cylinder pressures a little on the high side, that can be fixed. Also the bike ran flawlessly and strong for several race weekends and, between me and my son, we ran it hard, lots of races getting passed off between he and I, it didn't get a rest. So im kind of impressed how well it held up.
As for Blackhawk, we are there Aug 17. There is a CCS trackday the 16th but I cant make that. Its right in your back yard so no excuses.
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Old August 6th, 2014, 09:17 AM   #193
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Bruce, I have an idea to help with the cooling issues. I remembered that the 300 introduced a radiator fan shroud to help with cooling the bigger displacement. Granted that the new shrould does effectively pull more air through a bigger surface area and direct it down away from the head and cylinders, why not make a shroud that covers the entire radiator to maximize the efficiency of the fan and radiator? They do it for cars and trucks, why not apply to our bikes?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-Kawasak...8135a1&vxp=mtr
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Old August 6th, 2014, 11:03 AM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cuong-nutz View Post
Bruce, I have an idea to help with the cooling issues. I remembered that the 300 introduced a radiator fan shroud to help with cooling the bigger displacement. Granted that the new shrould does effectively pull more air through a bigger surface area and direct it down away from the head and cylinders, why not make a shroud that covers the entire radiator to maximize the efficiency of the fan and radiator? They do it for cars and trucks, why not apply to our bikes?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-Kawasak...8135a1&vxp=mtr
a great idea indeed... factory shroud may be good and effective but I've decided to fit something larger than that either from another vehicle or design sth of my own....
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Old August 7th, 2014, 07:34 AM   #195
garth285
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You could also find another type of fan that you may be able to run two fans, the CBR1000's have some nice fans on their radiators, may fit.

You could also wire a toggle switch to your bars that will close the fan on/off switch and turn your fans on earlier than normal.

Lots of guys do that just on their street bike since it gets so hot down here in S FL.
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Old August 7th, 2014, 07:34 AM   #196
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You could also find another type of fan that you may be able to run two fans, the CBR1000's have some nice fans on their radiators, may fit.

You could also wire a toggle switch to your bars that will close the fan on/off switch and turn your fans on earlier than normal.

Lots of guys do that just on their street bike since it gets so hot down here in S FL.
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Old November 21st, 2014, 03:57 AM   #197
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@bruce71198, against the heat of your engine - coming with this in Winter-Time...
http://empiremotoshop.com/product/17...1400645876.jpg
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Old November 21st, 2014, 06:15 AM   #198
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He just needs to run on E85, engine temps drop 25-30* ;-)
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Old November 21st, 2014, 03:08 PM   #199
bruce71198
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Originally Posted by Somchai View Post
@bruce71198, against the heat of your engine - coming with this in Winter-Time...
http://empiremotoshop.com/product/17...1400645876.jpg
How difficult would it be to get one of these radiators to the USA?
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Old November 21st, 2014, 03:09 PM   #200
bruce71198
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He just needs to run on E85, engine temps drop 25-30* ;-)
With more compression and timing what do you think the expected power increase would be?
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