IC Ignitor issues & power loss

[Buffalony]

Originally Posted by kkim

talk to your dealer first an see how receptive they are to the faulty CDI issue. It really doesn't matter which you do first, but some dealers (wrongly) will blame anything that goes wrong with the bike to mods they see you've made. To avoid that possible hassle, see if the CDI resolution will be a quick one or if you'll be like a salmon swimming upstream to have it fixed, then decide on the jetting/exhaust mods.

I agree. This is why I havent done anything to the motor yet. I dont know how this dealer is. Im sure if they wanted they can be a real pain if ya did anything to the bike.

[ankh26]

MY sons friend who has a 2009 ninja 250 told me he thought he was having funny readings with his tach, I told him to keep an eye out for it and no kidding his tach stopped working he has 1000 miles on the bike, So I am going to bring my bike in tomorrow and actually give them a print out of the cdi issue, from this forum the problem with my bike is after warm up, and mind you this is on a regular basis the tach will read 1000 rpm faster, so in other words when it's cold at 4k I can move at 35 mph after about 3 minutes it will still read 4k but my speed will drop to 30 mph all this in 6th gear, at 8K I can get 60 mph, what does one with no cdi issues get for mph when there tach is reading 8K, my son has a 2009 ninja 250 with no problems.
This is really a bummer...this could be the last Kawi I buy if this issue is not resolved.

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by ankh26

MY sons friend who has a 2009 ninja 250 told me he thought he was having funny readings with his tach, I told him to keep an eye out for it and no kidding his tach stopped working he has 1000 miles on the bike, So I am going to bring my bike in tomorrow and actually give them a print out of the cdi issue, from this forum the problem with my bike is after warm up, and mind you this is on a regular basis the tach will read 1000 rpm faster, so in other words when it's cold at 4k I can move at 35 mph after about 3 minutes it will still read 4k but my speed will drop to 30 mph all this in 6th gear, at 8K I can get 60 mph, what does one with no cdi issues get for mph when there tach is reading 8K, my son has a 2009 ninja 250 with no problems.
This is really a bummer...this could be the last Kawi I buy if this issue is not resolved.

Bummer to hear about your issues. Sure fire sign something is amiss with the CDI, as you seem to inidicate that the issues shows up after warming up the bike. Have you run side by side comparison with your son's bike?

As to the tach on the other bike not working, there are a host of other issues it could be before pointing to the CDI or tach. Several connecters and wires along the way there.....the dealer should be fixing it under warranty, no questions asked.

Have you verified your speedo against a GPS or a known good speedo? Lots of us have the 10% error......

I'm only getting needle bounce at 9k now, with no other performance or mileage impact. I indicate 7000 RPM at an indicated 55mph with the 10% error (I'm really only doing a GPS verified 50mph) in 6th gear.

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by g21-30

I am also having the same issue. I don't know when mine started, as I have a GPS blocking my view of the tachometer. I removed the GPS to verify it today. And to be sure the clutch wasn't slipping, I adjusted the clutch lever freeplay to roughly 1/2" to 3/4"! Just made the clutch grab sooner than later. With stock gearing, 50 MPH = 7000 RPM, 55 MPH = 7500 RPM, 60 MPH = 8000 RPM.

With my dealer, one must schedule an appointment via the 'Net, so I'm waiting for a response to my request! For service needed, I said "Warranty replacement of the igniter!"

Tonight, I readjusted the clutch lever freeplay back to spec.

Are those indicated or true (GPS verified) vehicle speeds?

Originally Posted by g21-30

Check out this thread:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20256

Enter motorcycle type, etc. - Choose 2008, since it is the same gearing as the 2009. Change the units from KM/h to MI/h.

That thing is pretty cool, and pretty close, but a little optimistic as it doesn't account for mechanical loss.

[randomwalk101]

Speed acuracy is not a concern here. It's consistency.
Cold: bike goes 70mph @ 7000 rpm in 6th gear
Warm: bike goes 70mph @ 8000 rpm in 6th gear
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[Banzai]

Originally Posted by g21-30

At the moment, I'm tempted to not even bother taking it to the dealer, since the performance hasn't been effected.

This is where most of us with the problem are, right now, too. As long as it's to the point where it SEEMS to be purely an indicating problem, and UNTIL Kawi gets a real fix, why be without the bike? As I experienced with the second CDI, chances are good that anything they replace could make it worse.

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by ztrack157

Man after reading this is sounds like I am bring over the TIS just in time for guys to swap out the ****** CDI with it.

Any more info on this? Different timing curves? Price point? Dyno comparisson? Warranty?

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by ztrack157

The TIS is programmable and allow you to adjust the timing and pull all the way to redline. Dynos won't show you much unless your doing serious tuning and pnp, piston changes, and using a higher octane. You'll feel the difference though and the programmer lets you tinker where you need it. It would be about $325-350 Shipped. As for warranty I'll have to see about that since you would be playing around with it I really shouldn't be accountable. I may let you get optional ins on it.

Sounds like an interesting toy, although the price point is up there. Then again, a replacement CDI is in the $390 range.

What map/mapss does it come loaded with? PC interface or silly little buttons and lights? Single spark or multi spark unit?

[randomwalk101]

interesting toy...sounds promising although I'm not quite sure I want to shell out 400 bones for kiwi's mistake.
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[Banzai]

Neat toy. What parameters can you adjust, and by how much? Stand alone unit or piggy back? Would love to read the instructions/manual before committing so much money, though.

[g21-30]

By enlarging the picture and google, I found the following info:

http://www.ayosdito.ph/NCR/1052947-BRT+Racing+CDI.htm

[Banzai]

Goggle is POWER!

I found all sorts of reference all over, but I can't read half of it! But their advertising hype seems as bad as America. 25% reduction in fuel useage? LOL

I found several references to there being some sort of button that mounts on the handlebars to switch from one map to another. Is that the case with the Ninja 250 unit?

[ankh26]

This Tis is interesting, what can it do for my bike? just a thought but....if we all knew each other well we could chip in buy the unit and share it...
by the way my bike is in the shop getting the cdi issue looked at I will post what the results are wont get it back until next saturday, I hope they fix it and I do not have to being it back,,, I ended up with these results when the bike was warm
4000 rpm=30 mph 5000 rpm=40MPH 6000 rpm=45 to 47 8000 rpm = 60mph.
Are there any after market cdi's???

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by ankh26

This Tis is interesting, what can it do for my bike? just a thought but....if we all knew each other well we could chip in buy the unit and share it...
by the way my bike is in the shop getting the cdi issue looked at I will post what the results are wont get it back until next saturday, I hope they fix it and I do not have to being it back,,, I ended up with these results when the bike was warm
4000 rpm=30 mph 5000 rpm=40MPH 6000 rpm=45 to 47 8000 rpm = 60mph.
Are there any after market cdi's???

Sorry, my man, the TIS replaces the CDI.....no sharing! So, yes, this is an aftermarket CDI.

Good luck with the dealer. Hopefully you get a good unit and won't have to deal with it anymore.

[randomwalk101]

Does this ecu issue happens to FI model too?
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[Banzai]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

Does this ecu issue happens to FI model too?
Posted via Mobile Device

I don't think so. Never heard of anyone other than the US carb models having this problem. The CDI/ECU for the FI models wouldn't work for ours as it likely has very different spark curves. And that's even before you considder the issues of connecter compatibility.

I could be wrong, though, as the aftermarket units are all overseas, and I thought only the US got the carb models?

If these aftermarket units are dual compatible, that raises some interesting questions!

[randomwalk101]

Take up this issue with a bike magazine. Kawi will def do something since mag is being read my millions and would damage kiwi's reputation
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[randomwalk101]

Don't really need to advance timing or anything...don't want a hole in my engine. Kiwi just needs to fix the drifting rpm issue and everything is kool.
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[Banzai]

Originally Posted by ztrack157

It's funny that it's suseptible to heat. Where I live gets hotter than anywhere you guys live yet I have had no problems. Even when its 115+ for 2 weeks straight.

Yeah, it's a hit or miss issue.

[randomwalk101]

Yup...you don't see me argue with you there. I own. A kiwi and a Honda. Honda is light year ahead.
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[Banzai]

Originally Posted by ztrack157

There are no FI 250's in Indonesia so this product is not designed for and FI model.

I have learned something new today!

Thanks

[randomwalk101]

They ignored bc nobody sued them. If you slap them with 100 millions law suit and they lost, you bet there will be action. If I own kawi and all you do is whine, you can whine all you like...just done bug me sipping my magarita in the Bahamas.
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[randomwalk101]

Okay, so are we absolutely sure that it's the ecu and not the speed sensor? I mean rpm might have been correctly displayed but the mechanical speed sensor may heats up and go bizzart and displays a lower speed thus we think the rpm changes (rises). A possibility???
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[randomwalk101]

I would guess that it does... If the other guy have done it already. If it's dirt cheap, why not try it out?
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[Banzai]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

Okay, so are we absolutely sure that it's the ecu and not the speed sensor? I mean rpm might have been correctly displayed but the mechanical speed sensor may heats up and go bizzart and displays a lower speed thus we think the rpm changes (rises). A possibility???
Posted via Mobile Device

It's a mechanical gear that's attached to your wheel and transmits by a spinning cable to the speedometer. I'm thinking "not". Especially since below about 7K and above about 9K many tachs are indicating normal. It has somehting to do with heat, resonance, and the cdi/tach.

If it was as easy as a speedometer cable or gear, Kawi wouldn't START with the CDI, move to the tach, and then go CDI again and again and again. Remember, once you report the problem, Kawi goes straight for the CDI, doesn't even ASK about other indications. That says they KNOW FOR SURE there's something wrong in the CDI/tach loop.

Other than the known 10% error on many bikes, there doesn't seem to be any issues with the speedometer.

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by g21-30

Do the connectors from a pre-gen match up with the newgens? I can get an '07 dirt cheap and install it just to see how it performs cold and warm. I wouldn't take it to the redline.

Thoughts?

I have been told (I have not reviewed the wiring diagrams) that they do, but be aware that Kawi changed the heads and cams with the 08+ bikes, and the spark curve and rev limiter are different, so it may not be the most appropriate one for the bike. You'll also likely have to tinker with the set up on the bike to get it running best.

[Banzai]

I'm thinking the TIS could be programed to accomodate all of those changes and NOT need another wiring harness. Swapping any part of the wiring harness is a MAJOR PIA.

[randomwalk101]

Yup. Get the TIS and test it out
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[randomwalk101]

Originally Posted by ztrack157

I'm getting one to run through a full line of testing before I sell it. I want to make sure the system is reliable, well made, and of course kicks ass.

Cool. How long are you expecting to get one for testing?

[SteveL]

The problem with the indication sounds like a fault I had once on the car, the ignition coil was breaking down, some of the high voltage that should go to the plug arrives at the rev counter. The rev counters are a volt meter with an integrator in front the more pulses you get in a given time the higher the reading, when a high voltage pulse arrives the integrator jumps up in voltage and the rev counter indicates a higher rpm. It seems that the insulation in the high voltage section is breaking down with temperature and even if there is no faulty indication of rpm the voltage to the plugs will be reduced resulting in a poor burn and high fuel consumption.

Steve

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by SteveL

The problem with the indication sounds like a fault I had once on the car, the ignition coil was breaking down, some of the high voltage that should go to the plug arrives at the rev counter. The rev counters are a volt meter with an integrator in front the more pulses you get in a given time the higher the reading, when a high voltage pulse arrives the integrator jumps up in voltage and the rev counter indicates a higher rpm. It seems that the insulation in the high voltage section is breaking down with temperature and even if there is no faulty indication of rpm the voltage to the plugs will be reduced resulting in a poor burn and high fuel consumption.

Steve

I've seen similar faults, too. One of the things that I tried was swapping coils, and the issue didn't go away. I've also tried coils off of another bike, same problem. Unless all of the coils are bad?

But then again, one of the service techs at my dealer slaved in another tach onto the #2 coil when my bike was acting funny, and the slave tach indicated fine while the factory tach (getting it's input from #1 coil) was going funky. And to complicate matters, when the factory tach was showing problems, the motor wasn't stumbling at all!

It's a strange problem, to be certain.

[ankh26]

Follow up to the cdi issue, well got the bike back, factory pro jet kit installed, new Comp wereks exhaust installed, and the dealer says he called kawai about the CDi problem and Kawi said there was no problem, so I gather that someone is lying, the bike is the same as before no change still get the 1000 rpm advance after the bike warms up. bike seems to move a little faster, but tach issue will not go away because there is a problem with denial, so I'll wait until there is an after market CDI for my bike and get it and install it, but I will say, I will never buy a Kawi again.

anyone know where or if I can get a aftermarket cdi I know there is one a few post ago but no mention of where to get it. do you think a dyno would help

[kkim]

Originally Posted by ankh26

do you think a dyno would help

help what?

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by ankh26

Kawi said there was no problem, so I gather that someone is lying..... there is a problem with denial...... but I will say, I will never buy a Kawi again.

One of the things about the 250r that is so brilliant for the US market, is it's reach into the new rider market, including those that wouldn't otherwise ride at all. Considering the importance of brand loyalty to customer lifetime value, they are making a VERY large mistake in treating new customers in this manner. What happens when it is time for an upgrade? ...... defection!
They may not be feeling the immediate effects of this right now, but new riders being what they are, do like to get that bigger bike after very short amounts of time.

I'm still thinking about the new 650r, but since I have no $$ right now, have lots of time to watch how they support their people.

Of course being lied to by the stealerships service dept. does motivate one to do more of their own work. I tell you, in the END, honesty will always "pay."

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by ankh26

...and the dealer says he called kawai about the CDi problem and Kawi said there was no problem, so I gather that someone is lying, the bike is the same as before no change still get the 1000 rpm advance after the bike warms up. bike seems to move a little faster, but tach issue will not go away because there is a problem with denial, so I'll wait until there is an after market CDI for my bike and get it and install it, but I will say, I will never buy a Kawi again.

anyone know where or if I can get a aftermarket cdi I know there is one a few post ago but no mention of where to get it. do you think a dyno would help

Your service department is full of SHYT. One call to the Kawi warranty line and Kawi doesn't even bat an eye, they ask for the dealership number and ship a CDI out, no questions asked. There have been at least a dozen people in this thread alone who have had CDIs and/or tachs replaced under warranty for this very problem. Never mind many others who have verified that their service departments also know of the problem all over the country have also posted.

As to where to get an aftermarket CDI, the far side of the Pacific rim.

What would a dyno do for the CDI issue?

[ankh26]

maybe if the bike was set by a dyno I would get an accurate tach reading, just guessing

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by ankh26

maybe if the bike was set by a dyno I would get an accurate tach reading, just guessing

Lots of math to back convert from wheel rpm to engine rpm, and it won't usually be very close because of mechanical loss and a whole host of other factors. I guess it could be done, but ultimately won't really solve anything. You'dd never be able to tell for sure if you were 'cold' and didn't need to convert or 'hot' and did.

[ankh26]

well ordered a used CDI off of someone from ebay supposedly came off of a 2008 Ninja, when I get it I will install it and put it through it's paces hopefully I can tell you good news. until then....

[Banzai]

The tach is in parallel with the spark plug, won't work in series.

[randomwalk101]

Originally Posted by g21-30

RESULTS: The OEM tach was off (high), while the secondary one read what it was supposed to, i.e. in 6th gear @ 50 MPH = 6000 RPM!

what it reads is irrelevant...we are talking about absolute differences of hot & cold bike/cdi