IC Ignitor issues & power loss

[Alex]

Sam - the issue is that people's tachs are already variable; it's not a very precise instrument. Exactly 50 mph will not be exactly 6000 rpm on everyone else's tach. On some it will show 6500, some it will show 5500, and neither one of those necessarily has the CDI issue. In addition to tach & speedo display variability, the rolling circumference of the rear tire matters as well, so anyone with either a brand new tire or worn tire, or even a completely different sized tire will show a difference of engine rpm --> speed conversion, with or without the CDI issue.

[Alex]

Sounds about right to me.

[randomwalk101]

looks like a bunch of people are going to line to for a TIS upgrade

[kevins_garage]

Originally Posted by Alex

Sam - the issue is that people's tachs are already variable; it's not a very precise instrument. Exactly 50 mph will not be exactly 6000 rpm on everyone else's tach. On some it will show 6500, some it will show 5500, and neither one of those necessarily has the CDI issue. In addition to tach & speedo display variability, the rolling circumference of the rear tire matters as well, so anyone with either a brand new tire or worn tire, or even a completely different sized tire will show a difference of engine rpm --> speed conversion, with or without the CDI issue.

I don't think tachs are as variable as you indicate - most are made to a spec which does have a + or - tolerance, but I have yet to see tachs that read way different from each other as in your example. You might get a slight variance of 1-200 RPMs (which is pretty hard to discern on the tiny 250 tach anyway), but not 1,000 RPMs as you indicate among bikes/vehicles of the same make/model/year.

That was why I tried to stay away from spelling out a certain RPM at a certain speed for everyone to compare against (no way to account for all the variables on individual bikes). Everyone should be able to tell on their bike though, whether the RPMs are displayed different at the same speed in the same gear with the bike COLD vs. WARM.

[Alex]

+/- 1000 rpm may be a little much, agreed. But with the speedos varying from 2% high to 11% high based on what people have reported on this board, that alone means that coming up with an absolute baseline won't be accurate enough to matter, even if the tach variabilty is reasonably low. (Just as you said. )

[Buffalony]

bump
7250rpm @60 indicated cold morning mid 50's
9000rpm @60 indicated warm midday mid 70's

[noche_caliente]

so how's this for backwards.... 4th gear, 40 mph.... 6500 rpm, cold morning, and 6200-6400 on hot afternoons....

[headshrink]

speaking of backwards.... I have had this issue consistantly for months..... now that it gets above 100, I haven't seen the needle bouncing (usually in the 90s).

[randomwalk101]

I guess ifyou have cdi issue, the only way is to have the cdi swapped out and hopefully you'll end up with a good one like the one I recently replaced...or go aftermarket one ($400)

[kevins_garage]

Originally Posted by Alex

+/- 1000 rpm may be a little much, agreed. But with the speedos varying from 2% high to 11% high based on what people have reported on this board, that alone means that coming up with an absolute baseline won't be accurate enough to matter, even if the tach variabilty is reasonably low. (Just as you said. )

Keep in mind the speedo variability from bike to bike has no bearing on this issue. If my bike indicates 6000rpm at 50mph in 6th gear and yours 6000rpm at 55mph in 6th gear when cold, once the problem starts the tach will be the variable, not the speed. My speedo should still read 50 mph in 6th gear, but my tach will no longer read 6000rpm when my bike is hot. Yours should still read 55mph in 6th gear, but your tach will no longer read 6000rpm when your bike is hot.

There is no reason to worry about any comparisons of any kind from one bike to another bike or trying to identify a single baseline for everyone - every bike will have it's own baseline - just pick a speed and pick a gear when cold and watch your tach, then when the bike gets hot, maintain the same speed in the same gear and see what your tach indicates. If the tach indicates a different rpm when hot, or the tach needle flutters/bounces, or you get any kind of power loss, you probably have a CDI issue.

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

I guess ifyou have cdi issue, the only way is to have the cdi swapped out and hopefully you'll end up with a good one like the one I recently replaced...or go aftermarket one ($400)

If anyone in the US has the problem, please file a complaint with NHTSA online or by mail so they are aware of the problem. If they get enough complaints, it is possible they will open an investigation on this. Owners shouldn't have to pay out of pocket to fix this problem. Canada has their own version of NHTSA, I believe Transport Canada - not sure on other countries.

I put up a thread at kawiforums or e-mail me at kevins_garage@yahoo.com and I can send you a copy of the complaint form that you can print and mail - just heve to fill in your owner and bike info.

Based on what I've seen and read, I would say that the majority of owners have this problem - many just may not know it yet.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by kevins_garage

Keep in mind the speedo variability from bike to bike has no bearing on this issue.

Of course; the only reason I brought up the speedo variability is that because of it, it would be hard to come up with such a baseline across all bikes to quickly identify a CDI issue, that's all.

[kevins_garage]

Originally Posted by Alex

Of course; the only reason I brought up the speedo variability is that because of it, it would be hard to come up with such a baseline across all bikes to quickly identify a CDI issue, that's all.

I hope I am not belaboring the point, but that's the beauty of this issue, as no baseline is even required - the variance will be somewhat unique to each bike, but will easily be identifiable by a comparison of tach readings - cold vs. hot.

If the variance is within a couple of hundred rpm's, that could be "normal". As the difference approaches 4-500rpm or more, that (to me) would be an indication of a CDI issue.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by kevins_garage

I hope I am not belaboring the point...

You are, we get it.

Good luck to all who are experiencing this issue, and I hope that your local Kawi dealer is helpful in getting things replaced as needed. I also think that sending that complaint form into NHTSA isn't a bad idea either if this does end up affecting you.

[randomwalk101]

Not all 250 kiwi has this issue. I would guess about 30% out there has it (bad batch of cdi)? Anyhow mine has the problem but I swapped out the cdi and it's fixed. Consistent rmp regardless of the temp. Just drove 6 hrs and no rpm variation issue.
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[cifex]

I believe I have this problem as well. Though I thought, my RPMs actually were lower when it was cold. I could have sworn the engine sounded as though it were running a lower RPM but perhaps I am crazy. I am going to take some notes, using my iPhone to double check GPS recorded speed and recording ambient temperature and altitude before I bring it to the dealer.

[headshrink]

I have had the classic tach bounce issue pretty consistently since I bought my bike in June 2008. As I stated above, for some reason it seemed to stop this summer. Today was unusually cool too (I mention this because mine stopped acting up when the weather got super hot) and it still didn't bounce...... WEIRD

[Locksmiff]

I have been bitten by this from day one. I brought it to their attention that cold in the morning it was reading 7000rpm at 100k's come afternoon sitting in the sun all day, for the same givern speed it would 8000-8500. I said we would wait until the first service for them to verify it.

I got a call today from them and Kawasaki want to replace the speedo to try and repair the problem. In the back of my mind I am wondering how can someone assume the speedo (mechanical) can affect the tacho (electrical) in any way.

[randomwalk101]

i dont know if changing the speedo will fix it...but i replaced the cdi and issue is solved.

[Locksmiff]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

i dont know if changing the speedo will fix it...but i replaced the cdi and issue is solved.

I think the same. I also feel that it is going to continue to plague me while they play "Swap the part"

[randomwalk101]

Originally Posted by Locksmiff

I think the same. I also feel that it is going to continue to plague me while they play "Swap the part"

ask them to instead of swapping the speedo, swap the cdi

[Locksmiff]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

ask them to instead of swapping the speedo, swap the cdi

I have tried to point that out. They left it in Kawasakis hands and suggestion

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by Locksmiff

I have tried to point that out. They left it in Kawasakis hands and suggestion

This is VERY typical Kawi on this particular issue. They'll play swap the part until they put in a good cdi or you give up.

[Locksmiff]

Originally Posted by Banzai

This is VERY typical Kawi on this particular issue. They'll play swap the part until they put in a good cdi or you give up.

The bike is brand new so I got 2 years of warrenty for them to play with. I figure the dealer will jet jacked off quicker then me. They have to loan me a bike each time.

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by Locksmiff

They have to loan me a bike each time.

they have to loan you a bike!? How did you swing that?

[Locksmiff]

Originally Posted by headshrink

they have to loan you a bike!? How did you swing that?

They have loaner bikes. I think it's one off the floor. The last one they lent me was a 600 dirt bike. If you stack it you gotta pay $2000 for the insurance excess though. It also my only form of transport through the week.

I only go for the loaner when its a warrenty issue. I think you may be hard pressed getting them to loan you one just for a service. This is the second time I have had to use the loaner bike, but as I said above, knowing that it maybe play "Swap the part till you sort it out game" the dealer might start to get a little anoyyed and hopefully start putting some pressure on Kawasaki if it gets to that stage.

[g21-30]

Tell them to swap a 20 yr old CDI from an '88-94 Ninja 250, as it will cure the problem! I would love to see the expression on the Kawasaki mechanic, when you tell him that!

[Betlog]

For those of you that have gotten this fixed, how long does it take to get the CDI replaced? Did you have to go back multiple times at the dealership? Them checking the bike, then you having to go back after they receive the part from Kawi? Thanks.

[Daeldren]

Well I think my CDI finally went out on the 08. Tach is fine up to about 6k then the needle goes all wanky and rotates clockwise all the way till it can no longer turn, bogging the engine down because it thinks its at redline. Maybe time for the tis upgrade.

[g21-30]

Originally Posted by Betlog

For those of you that have gotten this fixed, how long does it take to get the CDI replaced? Did you have to go back multiple times at the dealership? Them checking the bike, then you having to go back after they receive the part from Kawi? Thanks.

Since you have gotten zero responses from "those who have gotten this fixed.....by the dealer", that should tell you something! You have 3 options: dealer (good luck), BRT TIS, or retrofit '88-94 CDI!

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by Betlog

For those of you that have gotten this fixed, how long does it take to get the CDI replaced? Did you have to go back multiple times at the dealership? Them checking the bike, then you having to go back after they receive the part from Kawi? Thanks.

It took my dealer several tries to get a "Good" one in stock and installed. If they know what they're doing, it only takes about 45 minutes to swap, start to finish.

[g21-30]

Originally Posted by Daeldren

Tach is fine up to about 6k then the needle goes all wanky and rotates clockwise all the way till it can no longer turn, bogging the engine down because it thinks its at redline.

I always wondered if the limiter would think the engine was at redline with a bad CDI. Looks like we have the answer!

[Daeldren]

Well I feel dumb now, turns out the problem I was having with my tach was not a CDI issue but a battery terminal was loose. I figured it out when I noticed the headlights were flickering the other night, they were running straight off the alternator, and figured it couldn't be coincidental.

[littledog]

I think my motorcycle has the odd tachometer behavior described above.

I got it on black Friday the day after Thanksgiving. The weather here has been consistently cold, until this past Tuesday I had not ridden in over 60 deg weather. I've got bunch of really warm clothes.

Due to the silly Kawasaki break in routine I know the speedometer shows 35 mph in 6th gear when the tachometer shows 4k rpm, and at 5k rpm in 6th gear, it shows 45mph. I could not stand the break in speeds, so I observed early on that I got 55mph at 6k rpm in 6th gear.

Very consistently, rpm x 9 / 1000 = mph in 6th gear.

That is until this past nice warm Tuesday afternoon, where I was going a touch over 30 mph at 4k rpm, and about 55 mph at 7k rpm. Even the idle looked to be a bit higher, but sounded no different than before. I drove the bike about 60mi while it was showing these unexpected gauge readings.

That night, at about 50 deg, I took the bike for a spin around the block, 20 mi or so. Back to the rock solid rpm x 9 / 1000 mph in 6th gear.

Today it was nice and warm again. I rode up to Martin Dam about 125 mi. round trip. For the entire ride, the tachometer - speedometer formula was about rpm x 8 / 1000 = mph in 6th gear.

What else to observe? Sound. My Ninja, when cruising in 6th at a certain speed, a new sound appears. I will call it "air box resonance", I don't know if that is an accurate term, but it always started at 6k rpm and 55mph before.

When the tachometer was "off" it started at 55mph and 7k rpm.

Air box resonance sound starts at 55mph in 6th gear, whatever the tachometer shows.

Another thing I have paid attention to is the fuel mileage. I know I am sort of ridiculous about numbers. However... if you're driving habits are consistent but your mileage goes down, there is a problem developing.

Driving back and forth to work I average 61 mpg. Driving the 45 - 55 mph back roads I get about 65mpg.

I used over half of the current tank full while the tachometer was "off", all of the current tank full used for fun riding on back roads. I just now filled it and measured 67mpg.

So,my Ninja is showing one of the tachometer symptoms, and it appears to me to be a fault with the tachometer reading only, with no loss of performance (inferred from fuel efficiency).

[Disturbed]

Any news of this problem in the European spec FI model?

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by Disturbed

Any news of this problem in the European spec FI model?

Yes, and the news seems to be that it's not a problem. Only the US spec carbed bikes, mostly 08s (but some 09s, haven't seen anyone post about their 10 yet, but the season is just getting started), seems to have this issue.

[HKr1]

Originally Posted by Banzai

If they know what they're doing, it only takes about 45 minutes to swap, start to finish.

45 minutes to swap out the stock CDI?, guess if your putting the BRT in(twice the size). Otherwise no rear body work even needs to come off to change the stock one out, just take the seat off and it comes right out/in

Originally Posted by Disturbed

Any news of this problem in the European spec FI model?

They dont have a CDI.

[Locksmiff]

Originally Posted by Banzai

Yes, and the news seems to be that it's not a problem. Only the US spec carbed bikes, mostly 08s (but some 09s, haven't seen anyone post about their 10 yet, but the season is just getting started), seems to have this issue.

My 2010 has this issue. The odd thing is when the dealer put a known faulty tacho in it, it stopped playing up. The fault with the faulty tacho was it would stick you had to give it a blip to get it off zero. They put a new tacho in and the problem reappeared.

[Banzai]

Originally Posted by Locksmiff

My 2010 has this issue. The odd thing is when the dealer put a known faulty tacho in it, it stopped playing up. The fault with the faulty tacho was it would stick you had to give it a blip to get it off zero. They put a new tacho in and the problem reappeared.

You running a carb or FI model?

[petiteninja]

hello everyone, i've been following this thread very closely, i think it's very interesting. i do have a imiportant question...

i don't have a ninjette yet, in fact i will probably purchase a used one tomorrow. it is a 2008 with about 300 miles on it. my husband will be test riding the bike because 1) i'm inseam challenged and wouldn't want to drop a bike that didn't belong to me and 2) he has over 20 years of riding experience (i've passed my MSF course and have a vespa)

what should we be listening/looking out for if the CDI was an issue? i mean, it hasn't been broken in yet and so redlining isn't a good solution. should i ask him to pay attention to the tach and watch for skipping/sticking?

i can't wait to get my bike. it's been at least a year of researching which mod's i'm gonna hook up and shopping for protective gear. yayaya!

[Betlog]

Originally Posted by petiteninja

hello everyone, i've been following this thread very closely, i think it's very interesting. i do have a imiportant question...

i don't have a ninjette yet, in fact i will probably purchase a used one tomorrow. it is a 2008 with about 300 miles on it. my husband will be test riding the bike because 1) i'm inseam challenged and wouldn't want to drop a bike that didn't belong to me and 2) he has over 20 years of riding experience (i've passed my MSF course and have a vespa)

what should we be listening/looking out for if the CDI was an issue? i mean, it hasn't been broken in yet and so redlining isn't a good solution. should i ask him to pay attention to the tach and watch for skipping/sticking?

i can't wait to get my bike. it's been at least a year of researching which mod's i'm gonna hook up and shopping for protective gear. yayaya!

When you are about to test ride, make sure the bike is cold. Have the rider pay attention to the speed given a certain RPM, for example, the bike at 6th gear might be running at 35MPH @ 4K RPM when cold but when it gets hot, 30MPH @ 4K RPM. Make sure you take the bike for a long run, not just a quick jog around the block. It may take a while before that happens though. It would help if you are test riding the bike when it's sunny and hot outside. Good luck!