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Old April 27th, 2011, 11:38 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by RiujinZero View Post
My 2 cents...

Most gasoline engines can't handle much more than double their stock horsepower assuming a volumetric efficiency of 70-80% with a maximum volumetric efficiency of about 140-160% before things start to blow and give.
I could cite you a lot of cars that make well over double their factory HP. Supras are rated for 320hp, but can make over 700rwhp with the stock bottom end. If the engine is designed for power, it can handle it.

Where the 250 is concerned, I do agree that it's an econo bike and not really designed to take a lot of HP.
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Old April 27th, 2011, 11:44 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by CThunder-blue View Post
I could cite you a lot of cars that make well over double their factory HP. Supras are rated for 320hp, but can make over 700rwhp with the stock bottom end. If the engine is designed for power, it can handle it.

Where the 250 is concerned, I do agree that it's an econo bike and not really designed to take a lot of HP.

*Most* gasoline engines...

I wouldn't consider the inline 6 in the supra representative of *MOST* gasoline engines. That engine has a legendary status amongst tuners.
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Old April 27th, 2011, 12:18 PM   #43
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There are a lot of motorcycle engines that use ball bearings on the bottom end.You are correct the oil reqiirements of the turbo as little to do with the engine. I was mistaken . The perosn I first spoke with turbo charged a 200 cc single with a ball bearing crank and the first turbo siezed. He went to a seperate oil system for the tubo to deal with that.
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Old April 27th, 2011, 01:02 PM   #44
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*Most* gasoline engines...

I wouldn't consider the inline 6 in the supra representative of *MOST* gasoline engines. That engine has a legendary status amongst tuners.
There are vipers, 3000gt's, stealths, skylines that also make double the HP on stock internals.

But enough of the OT. I think people are really thinking about this the wrong way. This discussion is really a theoretical debate, so let's continue on with that. From my point of view, a supercharger would be far more beneficial on our carb 250's than a turbo. The power is much more linear and you could definitely tune the carbs to add fuel as the RPM's increased. Since boost starts immediately, you won't need to worry about the instant rush of power like a turbo so the bike would likely be more predictable. Boost is boost, regardless of the source. Another benefit would be that you wouldn't need extra exhaust work like you would for a turbo. Even a blow off valve could be seen as extraneous. The two major hurdles would be to find some way to attach a pulley to the crank and make sure the ignition component is capable of supporting the extra power. Forgot to add that you may need a better fuel pump. If you could run a s/c with an extra 8lbs of boost and keep the engine reliable, that would be awesome.
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Old April 27th, 2011, 02:08 PM   #45
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@CThunder-blue

Keeping it theoretical, as far as I understand we have three parameters (idle, midrange, and throttle) in the carburetors to adjust the air/fuel ratio in the throttle-position/rpm plane. When we supercharge the engine, we're only adding a linear component, but the overall shape of the plane doesn't change, whereas a turbocharging is non-linear and will warp the surface. Maybe we can do something by adding an adjustable non-linear component, like putting the fuel-line under turbo pressure? (I'm not claiming that this works)

Also, turbochargers are cheap because they are used/mode by many manufactures, but AFAIK superchargers are a real niche-product. But why not make our own? Do you think we can make a supercharger for $500? We wouldn't have to touch the exhaust, so this is simpler and I think we can afford to spend a little more on this than on a turbocharger.
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Old April 27th, 2011, 02:44 PM   #46
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Can you use an air pump for a supercharger? Also Mercedes has a really cool supercharger with a clutch. Useful for this application???
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Old April 27th, 2011, 02:47 PM   #47
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A boost activated pressure source is easy and has been done. You just need a boost switch that activates a secondary fuel pump or increases voltage of the existing pump at a certain psi.

I don't think you'll make a supercharger for that low of a cost. Only ones that cost that low are high production models. you're better off buying one that's already made for motorcycles. I found a company in the UK called Rotrex. http://www.rotrex.com/Home/Superchar...torcycles.aspx. The only thing is that it seems the dimensions for it may make keeping the fairings in tact really difficult.
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Old April 27th, 2011, 02:48 PM   #48
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Can you use an air pump for a supercharger? Also Mercedes has a really cool supercharger with a clutch. Useful for this application???
an air pump would require far more voltage than a single 12v motorcycle battery can produce to be of any use.
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Old April 27th, 2011, 04:41 PM   #49
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an air pump would require far more voltage than a single 12v motorcycle battery can produce to be of any use.

Not an electric one. Old Jags and stuff had serpentine powered air pumps.
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Old April 27th, 2011, 07:06 PM   #50
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Not an electric one. Old Jags and stuff had serpentine powered air pumps.
emissions air pumps aka secondary air pumps, smog pumps, don't feed the engine air, they pump into exhaust to clean emissions.

if it was a belt driven "air pump" feeding the engine, it would be a supercharger

the answer to all of the intercooler fuss/efficiency jargon/wprries of draw through carb turbo setup would be less of a concern with the cheap addition of water/meth injection.

Its a common fix to charge cooling cost and complexity used in many entry level turbo kits as a substitute to make the install simpler/cheaper. A ninja 250's needs are so low that would be the best bet, assuming you wanted to stay carb'd. Even for fuel injected gorced induction, water/meth injection on top of charge cooling means more boost, or higher compression, or more aggressive ignition timing, or all three are attainable. Which means more power before the engine is knock limited.


disclaimer: I am a motorcycle newb, amd no engineer, a of these opinions/facts are based solely on first hand experience and observations building crazy toys for myself and friends... and related work experience with cars.
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Old April 27th, 2011, 07:23 PM   #51
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I've had meth injection before and there are a couple problems with doing this on a bike.

1. no place to install a big enough tank of methanol.
2. no place to install a pump
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Old April 27th, 2011, 07:27 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by CThunder-blue View Post
There are vipers, 3000gt's, stealths, skylines that also make double the HP on stock internals.

But enough of the OT. I think people are really thinking about this the wrong way. This discussion is really a theoretical debate, so let's continue on with that. From my point of view, a supercharger would be far more beneficial on our carb 250's than a turbo. The power is much more linear and you could definitely tune the carbs to add fuel as the RPM's increased. Since boost starts immediately, you won't need to worry about the instant rush of power like a turbo so the bike would likely be more predictable. Boost is boost, regardless of the source. Another benefit would be that you wouldn't need extra exhaust work like you would for a turbo. Even a blow off valve could be seen as extraneous. The two major hurdles would be to find some way to attach a pulley to the crank and make sure the ignition component is capable of supporting the extra power. Forgot to add that you may need a better fuel pump. If you could run a s/c with an extra 8lbs of boost and keep the engine reliable, that would be awesome.
I agree that this is a theoretical discussion. And I love the out of the box thinking. But are we talking about boosting a 250 ninja engine or turbo/supercharging in general. Superchargers put a higher load on the bottom end than a turbo. They have much higher torque at low rpm.

But where would the pully be mounted? There is very little room on the 250 ninja for something like a Mercedies supercharger. And with out an intercooler the boost be it turbo or supercharger would be limited.
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Old April 27th, 2011, 08:21 PM   #53
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I was thinking of a short coupler on the end of the sprocket side crank shaft. If you took a billet steel stock (a type that would be extremely strong, maybe 300M? or something you could heat/cryo treat) machine it to have a hex pattern on the outside with the crank's thread in one end and some sort of internal thread on the other end. Then you get it balanced with the crank as part of a rotating assembly. The pulley would likely need to be custom as well and again balanced. This is all assuming you'd be using a centrifugal supercharger and not a roots type.
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Old April 27th, 2011, 09:31 PM   #54
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the tail section could have a tank moulded within it, or be extended beyond stock dimensions, etc.

the point is water/meth is simple, cheap, and compact for the most part, making it ideal for charge cooling in this application.

a belt driven supercharger is usually a cheap and simple alternative to turbocharging, however not for this application. There are few superchargers if any that I know of that are mass lroduced enough to be within a normal persons budget. Also superchargers lacl the efficiency of a proper turbo setup, and god knows that with a 250cc powerplant, losing energy making the energy to move the bike is a horroble idea.

all in all its likely not a cost effective endeavor for most. Were I so inclined, and giving myself free labor as I tend to, I could find a way to make it happen cheaply... but then again I don't want a fast bike. I am buying a 250r for what it is, not what it isn't. I already have fohr wheeled vehicles that I am literally afraid of at times from their power delivery and output... my 250r goals are very different, and modest, and I just want 35whp, give or take 1whp, and it should be the bike I want that no one offers from the factory for me.

Glad to contribute to anyone needing help with sorting out turbo bits or brainstorming though. Definitely think water/meth is the key to a carb'd 250 turbo though if you want cheap reliable setup.
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Old April 27th, 2011, 09:51 PM   #55
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I suppose where the stock air box is currently could hold 2-3 qts of meth + the pump .
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Old April 28th, 2011, 04:48 AM   #56
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If you want 35 RW hp then you don't need this. I got 34 with pistoins carb and ignition mods. I have a methanol system that uses nitrous and methanol adding 30-40 hp or 20-30 hp with just nitrous and race gas. Any system this complex should be better than that or why bother.
Adding a pully to the crank is not that simple. There would need to be a bearing support and seal with a csustom side cover.Doable but complex and expensive even if you have a CNC machine and a big block of aluminum.
A turbo system is not that complex it is the fuel and ignition system that must work properly wether you yse carb or electronics . If the fuel system is not consistant youwill have low power or engine damage .Pushing a 26 hp engine to 75+ hp leaves no room for error
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Old April 28th, 2011, 07:49 AM   #57
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Either way, it's a heck of a lot of R&D. I wonder whatever happened to those guys in Indonesia who posted back in Dec on their turbo kit. I remember their carb engine turbo made ~50whp.
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Old April 28th, 2011, 08:11 AM   #58
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They used a micro squirt system. I copied there flywheel modification .The stock pick up for the ignition will not talk to most systems. I have made a couple atemps at contacting them .I have not gotten any responce.I was suprised at the HP number. I hoped for more. But it was a street system.
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Old April 28th, 2011, 09:24 AM   #59
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I already stated that my goals are only 35ish hp and I dont need forced induction for that.

Anyone expecting 70+whp from a system on a 250cc engine is not understanding what is and is not possible within the realm of "cheap" or "diy builds"... also anyone questioning the logic of it misses the point. There is no logic to it, its just to do it, if someone does it. At least in places where more powerful, viable, reliable options exist and are readily available and cost less than modding a 250r.

I honestly see no point for a us ninja 250r to ever see boost. My understanding is the malasian or indonesian or whatever turbo bike is that way because they dobt have the ability to get liter bikes or something to that effect.

But anything can be done with money and know how... but we won't be seeing boosted 250r's spitting out 75whp on setups that cost under a grand ever.
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Old April 28th, 2011, 09:25 AM   #60
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Old April 28th, 2011, 09:50 AM   #61
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They used a micro squirt system. I copied there flywheel modification .The stock pick up for the ignition will not talk to most systems. I have made a couple atemps at contacting them .I have not gotten any responce.I was suprised at the HP number. I hoped for more. But it was a street system.
They went to microsquirt after their initial results with the carb setup. Don't make me post the link!
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Old April 28th, 2011, 10:20 AM   #62
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I already stated that my goals are only 35ish hp and I dont need forced induction for that.

Anyone expecting 70+whp from a system on a 250cc engine is not understanding what is and is not possible within the realm of "cheap" or "diy builds"... also anyone questioning the logic of it misses the point. There is no logic to it, its just to do it, if someone does it. At least in places where more powerful, viable, reliable options exist and are readily available and cost less than modding a 250r.

I honestly see no point for a us ninja 250r to ever see boost. My understanding is the malasian or indonesian or whatever turbo bike is that way because they dobt have the ability to get liter bikes or something to that effect.

But anything can be done with money and know how... but we won't be seeing boosted 250r's spitting out 75whp on setups that cost under a grand ever.
I understand. And you are correct . My logic is purly to set land speed records. There is no way anything can be done for less than a grand. I expect to spend 10 grand between the engine and the system . 75 hp will be a realistic goal. I hope to get a little more but I am not going to speculate on power output. Bonniville is at 5000 feet and the race is held iinAugust. So boost and methanol will be a must to compete with two stroke engines.
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Old April 28th, 2011, 10:22 AM   #63
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They went to microsquirt after their initial results with the carb setup. Don't make me post the link!
Some how I missed the carb version .But I can understand why they went to FI.
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Old April 29th, 2011, 06:32 AM   #64
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Random thoughts:
  • If we fiddle around with the intake cams, we can reduce with compression of the engine for free: e.g. if we close the fuel intake when the piston is halfway down, we sorta have a 125cc engine with a compression rate of 5.8:1; at 200cc we'd get 9.3:1, so although we're reducing the engine size, this will let us use insane boost rates without detonation. I wonder whether an insurance company would allow the smaller engine argument, as the power-strokes remain at 250cc.
  • 25 years ago I helped design an auto-fire with adaptable fire-rate circuit for a joystick hooked up to my C64, it was messy, ugly, and had drips of solder all over the place. It worked like a charm, though.
  • Fuel injector: ~$30, lambda-probe (unheated, Honda Civic): ~$12, electronic components for analog circuit: ~$20. A functional FI-system could be less than $100.
  • I'd still want a digital system. Analog to Digital is like Carbs to EFI. Deja Vu all over again!
  • A 7" Android tablet PC with a USB-port is $150. A USB device with a couple of A/D converters (and other stuff that people us to control their fridge-light) must be available for cheap, and we can control everything electrical on our bike, including FI and ignition timing, with almost infinitely configurable software.
  • Slapping a turbo on a motorcycle is crazy. The advantage is that crazy people can do crazy stuff like set idle to 8000 rpm and tune the crabs for the range 8000-14000. In this range boost will be much less non-linear.

Last futzed with by Lowspeed Lowside; April 29th, 2011 at 08:51 PM. Reason: fixed bad grammar (I think)
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Old April 29th, 2011, 08:50 PM   #65
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more intercooler considerations

http://www.bellintercoolers.com/pages/aachart600.html, e.g. Part Number A600020080, $104. 'Core' thickness is 6", which means that ambient air stays 4x longer in the cooler than for the 1.25" model. As they are only 2" wide a pair could maybe fit stealthily inside the fairings; we'd vent hot air out through the '<' cracks (or whatever they're called).

Although the cross section for a pair is only 0.02m², i.e. only 20% of what was computed in post #2, I think this could actually be sufficient for an engine generating 50% max power. I'm too lazy to do the math, but 37kw should be able to push a 300kg mass up a pretty steep hill @ 75mph, i.e. a speed still generating enough airflow to keep things cool.

If there are no objections, let's reduce our budget for the intercoolers to $250.
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Old April 29th, 2011, 11:57 PM   #66
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You should use forged pistons for a turbo.Stock pistons are cast. Retadring the cam that much will not work . It may reduce compression but it will reduce power also. As for functioning anything for 100 dollars?I don't think so.How about 1500 dollars for an in intercooler?
I am not a computer guy I am an engine guy . So I will stick with a proven electronic fuel injection system. Things have to work properly or it will waist time and money.

Why idle at 8000 rpm? Forget the carbs .sell them on Ebay to buy pistons
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Old April 30th, 2011, 01:44 AM   #67
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You should use forged pistons for a turbo.Stock pistons are cast.
I have a friend who claims, that he owns Henry Ford's original hammer - he's only replaced the head and handle a couple of times. We can avoid various philosophical conundrums by keeping as many stock parts as possible.

One can replace the stock cylinder block with a beryllium one. I know why you're (likely) not going to have one made. For the same reason we're (likely) not going to use forged pistons.

Although I did say we'd have the necessary tools and skills, the ability to forge pistons (obvious for me) wasn't implied. In the future please assume that I meant frequent encountered tools for hobbyists, maybe I was unclear about this. Even oxyacetylene equipment is pushing it, so the less we need to weld, the better.

Quote:
Retadring the cam that much will not work . It may reduce compression but it will reduce power also.
How do you know, that adjusting the cams to limit the amount of fuel/air we let into the engine will reduce net power? With 24psi boost a 200cc engine will generate upward of 50kw according to our calculator, which is much more than running a 250cc engine with 8psi boost. Just claiming that it will reduce in a loss of power is non helpful unless you can prove it. In this case you could argue that 24psi is the maximum we can expect from the RHF3, and since we're going to lose some pressure in the intercoolers, I'm being too optimistic.

Quote:
As for functioning anything for 100 dollars?I don't think so.How about 1500 dollars for an in intercooler?
Also, as stated in the first post, our maximum budget is $1000, so we can immediately eliminate any solution that requires a $1500 intercooler! Think hobbyist! I assume you're not just bragging about a $1500 intercooler, because things can get extremely embarrassing when someone achieves better results, using a $5 radiator he found at Walmart and a piece of chewing gum.

Quote:
I am not a computer guy I am an engine guy . So I will stick with a proven electronic fuel injection system. Things have to work properly or it will waist time and money.
Time spent thinking is never wasted.

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Why idle at 8000 rpm? Forget the carbs .sell them on Ebay to buy pistons
Because nobody I know of idles their engine at 8000rpm*, and since we're trying to do something that nobody else is doing, we have consider doing things that nobody else is doing! Duh! It's plain logical. It's not insane. It's not a manic episode of a bipolar disorder.

Insanity is doing the same thing that everybody else is doing and expecting different results.


Also, just because we're on a budget, doesn't in anyway imply, that the solution will be inferior. For example, one can spend $3000+ on a Garrett GT60 turbocharger and hook it up to the EX250 exhaust system, in which case the maximum gain in power will be approximately 0kw.

*if you're into racing you'll have to keep the engine above 8000rpm anyway. I figure everybody else would have to learn a new set of skills involving clutch, kill-switch and starter.

Last futzed with by Lowspeed Lowside; April 30th, 2011 at 01:53 AM. Reason: added footnote
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Old April 30th, 2011, 05:54 AM   #68
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I am sorry I missed the original 1000 dollar budget statement. I will just say IT CANT BE DONE . You can prove me wrong and I will be the first to congratulate you. But from my experience you can not run any real boost on cast pistons. The top of the piston crown will not hold its shape .that is not something you can get around . having pistons made cost about 800 dollars fore 4 pistons.

I have adjustable cam sprockets .I did a LOT of experimenting .if the cylinder pressure drops below 100 psi the engine will not start. with 62mm bore and 41 mm stroke the 250 ninja has a lot of trouble keeping a turbo spinning .even with 9 to 1 pistons there is still difficulty getting 20 psi boost.

I can not weld aluminum I contacted someone that can and that was the price I got .1500 dollars and 3 month lead time .I would not be embarrassed by anything . I encourage you to do you best . My 250 ninja has gone 121mph Shifteey went 122 a month later and I am proud of him BECAUSE he spent less money than me and went faster.


I still do not see a reason to "idle" at 8k. I leave the line at 9000 and shift at 12000 and need to push the engine to 13000 rpm with a 16/42 gear set . Yes this is uncharted territory we are in . There are not many 250 ninja turbos . But there are plenty of turbo motorcycles . I deal with people that have 250 mph motorcycles.They have years of experience so I tend to take there advice and then do my own thing.

and Yes time spent thinking is not time waisted . I try to spent as much time thinking and listening and studying as I can. I live in a world of reality and I am very involved with making my 250 Ninja the fastest 250 Ninja on earth . I cant do that alone so asking questions and listening to people is the only way I can achieve my goal. I appreciated you input with this . We have to go outside the box on this for sure.
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Old April 30th, 2011, 06:21 AM   #69
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I would consider the running low boost without an inter-cooler. This would 1. Simplify the engineering 2. Reduce cost 3. Provide a manageable power increase. One of the reasons you don't see production turbocharged bikes is because of the non-linear power delivery that turbocharging provides. This leads to unforgiving performance characteristics which, while fun in a 4 wheeled vehicle, can be catastrophic when you only have 2 points of contact with the road.
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Old April 30th, 2011, 02:35 PM   #70
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@Racer x

The reason to set idle at 8k would be that the range we'd need to tune the carburetors for is smaller. Sufficiently magnified all smooth curves can be approximated by straight lines, and we can use calculus.

The price per forged piston is $200? This isn't prohibitive and might even be within the budget. We can also lower the compression ratio with different pistons, so we get 2 for 1.

@warlord

Seems like a viable option, for I don't see any reason why the upgrades cannot be done individually. First get the turbo working, then add intercooling, then add forged pistons, etc. If we get two intercoolers, we can run them in series until we get forged pistons in which case we'll run them in parallel, etc. And a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, so if you can't get the turbo on, you haven't wasted money on e.g. coolers, yet. Unfortunately humans are prone to the fallacy of sunk-cost, so many will waste money, nevertheless. But, it would be nice to have an upgrade plan, because e.g. the best choice of turbo clearly depends on the stuff you intend to add later.

According to the gas laws of physics compressing gas with a temperature of 330ºK compressed at 10:1 will raise its temperature to 3300ºK, so if we manage to cool the gas to 300ºK before compression, it will only raise the temperature to 3000ºK. Of course, a lot of the heat is absorbed by the piston, cylinder walls, etc. which gives one of Racer X's arguments its weight. My concern is that if we don't use any intercooling, we get fully hit twice, because we're pumping in more AND hotter gas. Since we *want* to get more gas into the engine, trying to cool first seems like the more obvious thing to do first, but the obvious is often the enemy of the correct.
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Old April 30th, 2011, 03:22 PM   #71
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MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16
Ok let's get basic. Let's get a set of 12 to 1 je pistons . Under 300 dollars then use a thick copper head gasket. The stock gasket is .010 get .045 .That is 50 dollars since I all ready paid the Rand D charge.Than you can figureh out what the compression ratio is . That raises the heas and advances the cam timing. So far so good.Then use the coldest spark plugs you can and the Barnett springs for the clutch at 15 dollars so far that is close to 400 dolars forget the iintercooler mount the turbo that cost 350 dollars to the back of the head .Blow the air directly into a plenum that is 500cc twice the displacment of the engine. On the inlet side of the turbo mount a single carb it will be easy to tune and you only have to buy one . The stock CV won't work at all but as I said sell them to pay for the plenum. You still need the brtTis ignition system at 373 dollars
The boost would be controled by an exhaust side waist gate and a blow off valve in the plenum you would have to make a pipe that would drive the turbo but having the turbo mounted high would cause a bit of lag and no intercooler would limit it to 7 lb od boost.But that is with out dyno time to tune it Or you will break it tuning.so what is that 1300 bucks ?

Last futzed with by Racer x; April 30th, 2011 at 07:00 PM.
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Old April 30th, 2011, 03:32 PM   #72
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Who needs a turbo?

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Old April 30th, 2011, 04:20 PM   #73
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@Racer x

According to the 1st post our optimization problem has the following constraints: minimize cost @33kw or maximize power @$1000. I thought it was implied that stock parts cannot be sold, and the approach should be appropriate for a very determined hobbyist/amateur.

Accordingly, it cannot be done if someone can prove that getting 33kw must cost more than $1000. For example, if the cheapest turbocharger in volume were $999.99, and we know we also need to buy a piece of chewing gum for 2c to attach it to our bike, then 'it cannot be done' is correct.

So far I'm getting the impression that you're content with successfully proving that the highest end system possible will cost more than $1000, or using the turbo efficiently is more than $1000, or something to that effect, which I have no doubt is absolutely correct and true and provably so!
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Old April 30th, 2011, 07:13 PM   #74
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MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16
My iintent is to build a functioning system Its not that I thin the upper end system will cost more than 1000 dollars. I don't think the cheapest system can be built for 1000 dollars. I did not get the implication that stock parts cannot be sold.But. I can go along with that .limiting the budget to 1000 dollars is not something I can do .I don't have the skill and paying pros will break the budget. I can tell you that Boss Noss has a nitrous system that will deliver 20 hp and it works great. It cost 700 dollars.just another option
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Old April 30th, 2011, 07:15 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sowega View Post
Who needs a turbo?

42 hp out of a 250 ninja? How did you do that?
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Old April 30th, 2011, 08:02 PM   #76
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Quote:
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42 hp out of a 250 ninja? How did you do that?
No.

43.
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 08:04 AM   #77
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Quote:
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No.

43.
I would rather you answer the second question than the first
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 08:33 AM   #78
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I would rather you answer the second question than the first
Just a tiny shot of N2O into the intake.
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Old May 2nd, 2011, 09:06 AM   #79
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ah ok. That's one way to go about it.
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Old May 8th, 2011, 05:37 PM   #80
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novelty filtering software / lambda-probe-less EFI?

Here's the general idea: attach a microphone to the engine and use software to monitor for 'funny sounds'. The good sounds are the rhythmic ones: valves opening/closing, spark plugs sparking, air/fuel mixture rushing and going 'boom', etc. Fuel preignition and detonation will be arrhythmic, which can be isolated by appropriate filtering. I'm unsure about the exact details, but the field of digital signal processing is fairly well understood and there is tons of literature/software available.

Step 1 would be to velcro a cheap tablet-PC (7", $81 @ http://www.chinazrh.com/wholesale-7-...ra-p-4728.html) to the tank and when the screen goes red, you should ease off the throttle and reduce max psi/adjust the carbs.

Step 2 would be to the same setup to control a fuel injector: 'lean' will sound different than 'rich', and our objective could be as simple as choosing a fuel quantity that maximizes the sum-of-squared amplitudes (i.e. the mixture that gives us the biggest 'boom').

<OT>

Step 3 would be to replace the analog gauges with the tablet-PC (at this point we wish we had spent a little more and bought one with GPS), install a 0.3mp 60fps webcam with a wide-angle lens and get rid of the mirrors.

Bonus anti-theft feature: use a root-password, disconnect the tablet pc and put it under the seat.

</OT>

Necessary hardware could be a simple as modifying a USB-headset w/mic. Writing and setting up the necessary software will be a little less simple. Android OS will probably need to go because we'll need a Linux Kernel with appropriate real-time features such as high resolution timers. I've only skimmed the docs on USB devices and it's a mess. I also don't know yet what type of fuel injector we'd need. For a two cylinder/four-stroke engine @ 12,000rpm we need to inject fuel 100 times/sec, which gives us 2.5milliseconds to inject fuel. I think timing accurate to 10 microseconds should be sufficient.

What specs would our fuel injector need? Here's one for $24 shipped: http://www.amazon.com/ACCEL-150130-P.../dp/B000CIC1SE

Synopsis:

If we use novelty filtering software to monitor the engine, then we can get EFI for less than $100.

EDIT: apparently, the novelty filtering idea isn't new. Here's a video Engine Knock Detection and Sensing.

Last futzed with by Lowspeed Lowside; May 9th, 2011 at 04:45 PM.
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