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Old May 11th, 2011, 01:46 PM   #81
Lowspeed Lowside
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Necessary hardware could be a simple as modifying a USB-headset w/mic.[...]I think timing accurate to 10 microseconds should be sufficient.
OK, maybe a $5 headset is a little too lowtech. But parts for a device with 192 khz DAC and ADC (which gives us about 5 microseconds resolution) should be able to be built for less than $50. I'm tempted to pester Uwe Beis (http://www.beis.de/index.html) and pick his brain a bit. AFAICT, he's more interested in high fidelity, but he appears to be a topnotch expert in DIY-electronics, and maybe the overall idea could tickle his interest.

We still have more than 7 months till winter, so there's no hurry. There's still a lot of time for someone to come up with the correct incantation to do everything with the stock carburetors.

Of course, once we have a computer hooked up, installing electronically controlled vales sounds appealing, as this would allow us to adjust the (effective) compression ratio on the fly, but my bet would be that we'd get more for our buck by upgrading the pistons first.
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Old May 15th, 2011, 12:20 AM   #82
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Cheap fuel injection

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Originally Posted by Lowspeed Lowside View Post
OK, maybe a $5 headset is a little too lowtech. But parts for a device with 192 khz DAC and ADC (which gives us about 5 microseconds resolution)
I think the 192 khz is likely overkill after all. Our cheap tablet-PC should be able to convert digital-to-analog and vice versa at 48 khz with the integrated chip, as even the most inexpensive sound chips for $2.36 are capable of doing this, and we can pulse the injector several times to tweak the amount of fuel we inject to a very high degree. I read somewhere that fuel flow during the first and last 1.5 microseconds is only about 1/3 of the maximum rate.

Piezo-electric pressure sensors (e.g. SENSOR,PIEZO FILM VIB TAB MASS 25x13mm,ANALOG~70VDC,50mV/g) are less than $2.50/piece, so we could attach several sensors at different locations on the engine, which should give us a better 'picture' of what's going on. Maybe it's even possible to activate the sound chip's 2-channel ADC converter (stereo) to effectively double the resolution.

There are several 7-inch tablet-PCs with VIA VM8650 800 MHz processors for less than $100 shipped, an appropriate fuel injector and pump should be less than $50.

At less than $200 this setup is within our budget and allows us to choose a trade-off between (possibly drastic) reduced engine-life and (possibly dramatic) increased engine-power. Considering the experiences of other members with carbed turbos, at less than $100 additional cost, I think fuel injection should not really be considered optional anymore.

Setting up a fuel injection system as described above might be useful to members who do not desire to turbocharge their Ninjettes, so this actually deserves another thread. Attaching a couple of sensors and monitoring the engine is non-invasive, so the monitoring software can be engineered and tested without removing or replacing any components required for the normal functioning of our Ninjettes, and we don't have to wait until the winter season.

Side-note:

One advantage of turbocharging over supercharging is that we essentially get two different machines in one: below 8000rpm we'd have a Ninjette-sheep and above 8000rpm we'd have a Ninjette-wolf.
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Old May 19th, 2011, 06:56 PM   #83
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required hardware list (pre-alpha)

I'm almost sure that the IHI RHF3 is the turbocharger we should be using. According to http://www.ihi-turbo.com/turbo_RHE-RHF.htm it's an appropriate turbo for engines generating 27-135 hp.

Turbocharging:
  • 1x Turbocharger RHF3 ($150 - 210 / Piece - alibaba)
  • 2x Intercoolers ($100 / Piece - bellintercoolers)
  • 1x Exhaust Manifold ($20 - DIY)
  • 1x Blow-off valve ($20 - Amazon)
  • 1x Air filter ($20 -Amazon)
  • 1x Tubes, clamps, bolts, seals, etc. ($50)

~$460-520 + S&H

If we're planning to add fuel injection later we might as well install a pair of oxygen sensors in the exhaust manifold. This should make adjusting the carburetors easier.

Tuning & monitoring:
  • 1x 7-inch Tablet PC w/USB, mic & headphone ports ($80-120)
  • 2x Piezoelectric Guitar Pickups ($20 - DIY)
  • 2x Lambda Probes ($20 - Amazon)
  • 1x Software ($0 - DIY open-source project)

~$120-160 + S&H

According to the specs, the host OS needs to poll full-speed USB-devices every millisecond, which would give us at least 100K CPU instructions to process the output of the lamba probes, engine-vibration pickups, etc. to compute when to open and close the circuit that controls the next cylinder's fuel injector.

Of course this requires a lot more thought, but to keep the cost of R&D down we'd like most of the work to be performed by our tablet-PC and our EFI-device should/could primarily consist of one read-only timer (absolute) and four write-only timers (2x on/off). Programmable ignition timing should be an easy option to add, as we'd only need another two timers and at least one read-only time-stamp to tell us when the last revolution was completed, although I think we'd want several to give us better accuracy when the engine is slowing down or speeding up.

Just for kicks, lets add a couple more timers so that when someone makes electric valves we can remove the camshaft and reduce the effective compression ratio on the fly at high boost.

Fuel Injection:
  • 2x VENOM HP-624 Fuel Injectors ($40 - Amazon)
  • 1x Fuel Pump 60-80psi ($30-50 - unsure where)
  • 1x Fuel Filter ($10 - unsure)
  • 1x Intake Manifold ($20 - DIY)
  • 1x EFI controller ($30 - DIY)
  • 1x Cables, connectors, bolts, seals, etc ($40)
  • 1x Software ($0 - DIY open-source project)

$170-190 + S&H

Total:

$760-870 + S&H

The forum software has me currently on probation, so I have to take it easy with providing external links. As soon as my post-count hits 50 and we're a little more sure about the actual specs of the individual items, I'll keep an up-to-date list of where to get the hardware. There are a bunch of items that are individually only a couple of pennies, but which purchased at the local hardware store might be several hundred dollars, because we're forced to buy quantities of 10-20 even if we only need one or two.

In which case:

I'd be willing to stick a couple of bolts, O-rings and resistors in an envelope and mail it against the promise of free beer in case of a physical encounter.
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Old May 20th, 2011, 12:55 AM   #84
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Lambda probe placement

Placing two oxygen sensors in the exhaust before the turbo is a mistake. We might need to do a little more work at figuring out which piston the current emission pattern belongs to and we'll probably need a heated sensor since the exhaust after the turbo will be significantly cooler, but we should avoid obstructing the exhaust pulse to maximize its effect on driving the turbine.

The good news is that we'll only need one probe, the bad news is that heated lambda probes are considerably more expensive. Rockauto has a universal heated oxygen sensor for $20, but charges $32 for shipping. Ordering 10 units brings the price down to $24/piece incl. S&H. Amazon had one for $40 + S&H.

Note on tablet PCs:

Since we'll be wearing gloves we'll need a device with resistive not capacitive screen, which means we're in luck: the technology is a little cheaper!

For an extra $30-$50 we can get VERY powerful 7" tablets with ARM cortex-A9 processors and 512Mb RAM. Two cores @>1.0 GHz should be sufficient to run all the stuff we might want to add later, such as a rear view camera with nighttime vision enhancement post-processing and anti-locking brakes (which are both on my wish-to-do list). Supposedly, most android apps are single-threaded, so having an extra core to deal with time-critical operations can't hurt.

Although a 7" (16:9) device fits well (the screen has roughly the same hight as the speedometer), so depending on the top and bottom bezel-width we might be able to replace our dash-board with an 8" (4:3) device. We'd get an extra 120 pixels in height...
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Old May 20th, 2011, 08:05 AM   #85
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I unsubscribed from this thread a while back, but I wanted to correct you on 1 point. The exhaust gas after a turbo is far hotter than a naturally aspirated engine will put out. I'm not sure where you got that info, but it's typical to see 800+ F exhaust from turbo engines during max load. A heated sensor is just fine though since it will help during cold starts.

Also, venom injectors are complete junk. It's why they're priced lower than competition. Fuel pumps are measured in LPH or GPH, not psi. Blow off valve for $20? Sorry, but that won't likely protect your engine or turbo even once. Quality BOV's go for $200+. You also left off needing custom flanges made for the turbo. Also, did you plan on running wastegate pressure or using a boost controller? A decent manual boost controller from Joe P will set you back $45 too.
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Old May 22nd, 2011, 04:28 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by CThunder-blue View Post
I unsubscribed from this thread a while back, but I wanted to correct you on 1 point.
I think I need to correct you on several points....

Quote:
The exhaust gas after a turbo is far hotter than a naturally aspirated engine will put out. I'm not sure where you got that info,
If you read carefully, you'll notice that it wasn't about comparing a 'naturally aspirated engine' to a turbo! The diameter of the exhaust pipe is larger after the turbine, so according to PV=NkT the exhaust will be cooler. Here is a another way of looking at it: temperature is the average kinetic energy of the individual gas molecules and since the molecules 'hit' the turbine blades to spin the turbine wheel the molecules will slow down.

Quote:
but it's typical to see 800+ F exhaust from turbo engines during max load. A heated sensor is just fine though since it will help during cold starts.
I don't know where you get your info from...turbocharged 250cc are not typical, so any 'typical' values for 500000cc diesel engines running 800psi boost are not really helpful.

Also, we want our lambda sensor to work at most loads not just at maximum. Which reminds me that we need to add a variable resistor to measure throttle position. Riding the bike through extreme conditions might require 'recalibration' by occasionally opening and closing the throttle all the way.

We might as well save $10 and use only one unheated sensor or possibly none at all. The fuel injection setup should be able to figure out air/fuel mixture by constantly varying the mixture by say 1% and checking how much the engine speeds up or slows down.

Quote:
Also, venom injectors are complete junk. It's why they're priced lower than competition.
I don't think you understand the concept of a budget. Simply stating that something is 'complete junk' without providing an alternative is not helpful, and although I'm sorry to hear that you unsubscribed from this thread it's probably better you don't post anything.

To all others (if there are any left ) we have 4 intake valves so we might consider aiming 4 injectors at them. For an extra $40 we get a little bit of redundancy, so if one injector fails the computer can disable it and use the other one. We're also better prepared should we want to run pure ethanol (when gas hits $100/gal), which requires larger quantities of fuel.

Quote:
Fuel pumps are measured in LPH or GPH, not psi.
So? The problem is that LPH or GPH is irrelevant as long as the pump can can provide enough fuel. But, using a 100Gal/min pump generating 14psi and running 14 psi boost will result in zero fuel flow. This is obvious to me, I fail to see why you don't understand why the pressure of the fuel pump matters.

Quote:
Blow off valve for $20? Sorry, but that won't likely protect your engine or turbo even once. Quality BOV's go for $200+.
Really?

"my shadows mitsu turbo is fine and it has 125k on it without a BOV."


The purpose of the BOV is to protect turbine wheel when the throttle is closed quickly. So with appropriate throttle control a BOV would never trigger. We also don't need a device that prevents us from shifting into 1st gear and popping the clutch at 90mph.

So, I think we just saved $20. Also, trying to protect a $200 turbo with a $200 BOV seems a little extreme, don't you think? We can always add one later.

Quote:
You also left off needing custom flanges made for the turbo.
True! But what do you think we need to spend on a piece of metal with holes - $400? Did you read somewhere that titanium with a signature by Leonardo DaVinci is much better than steel so we should be using that?

Quote:
Also, did you plan on running wastegate pressure or using a boost controller? A decent manual boost controller from Joe P will set you back $45 too.
I was thinking of using the built-in wastegate control of the RHF3 turbo, since it's built-in. The advantage of built-in things are that they are built-in so that it's really unnecessary to worry about extra stuff that is not built-in, as not built-in stuff is extra. Not to mention that not built-in stuff is extra, and since it is extra it will likely cost extra money. Money is the stuff we use to buy things and there is a limited supply of it.
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Old May 22nd, 2011, 06:11 PM   #87
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What sort of time frame are you working with . When will you start building?
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Old May 22nd, 2011, 08:11 PM   #88
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What sort of time frame are you working with . When will you start building?
As stated, ahem, multiple times, ahem, I am figuring that we have about 6-7 more months for R&D, and about 2 months (8 weekends) to do the actual work. I am counting on a little bit more input from this and other forums, especially when it comes to tracking down suppliers for parts. Although I don't expect any deal-breakers, I do expect a ton of unknown problems lurking in the details.

Personally, I think we'll (which, most likely means I'll) be having most issues with getting the EFI software to run, as there are going to be very few people indeed with the willingness to learn how to debug a device driver especially if they don't have any way to test it on their own hardware.

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Cool idea i spose.. but why not just start off with a faster bike?
Now, where is the fun in that?
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Old May 23rd, 2011, 03:29 AM   #89
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Wink

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Originally Posted by Lowspeed Lowside View Post
As stated, ahem, multiple times, ahem, I am figuring that we have about 6-7 more months for R&D, and about 2 months (8 weekends) to do the actual work. I am counting on a little bit more input from this and other forums, especially when it comes to tracking down suppliers for parts. Although I don't expect any deal-breakers, I do expect a ton of unknown problems lurking in the details.

Personally, I think we'll (which, most likely means I'll) be having most issues with getting the EFI software to run, as there are going to be very few people indeed with the willingness to learn how to debug a device driver especially if they don't have any way to test it on their own hardware.
This is the only time frame reference I found.(it took me ~6 hours to familiarize myself with the subject matter.)

Is that 8 moonths on the EFI system alone ? Or is that. The whole turbocharged 250 ninja?
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Old May 23rd, 2011, 04:46 AM   #90
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Is that 8 moonths on the EFI system alone ? Or is that. The whole turbocharged 250 ninja?
Having powerful electronic control and monitoring capabilities should give us a definite edge over more competent mechanical engineers with larger budgets. Digital systems are exact and $100 in electronic components go very far. For example, wiring a piezoresistive pressure sensor ($2.50), having a computer convert the resistance to PSI and display the results on a screen should be a lot cheaper and more exact than any mechanical device could possibly dream to be (caveat: the little bastards also react to temperature, so one needs to include a temperature sensor, too). The drawback is that it requires time and brains to figure out how to do right.

In short: keep pantyhose on.
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Old May 23rd, 2011, 06:30 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowspeed Lowside View Post
Having powerful electronic control and monitoring capabilities should give us a definite edge over more competent mechanical engineers with larger budgets. Digital systems are exact and $100 in electronic components go very far. For example, wiring a piezoresistive pressure sensor ($2.50), having a computer convert the resistance to PSI and display the results on a screen should be a lot cheaper and more exact than any mechanical device could possibly dream to be (caveat: the little bastards also react to temperature, so one needs to include a temperature sensor, too). The drawback is that it requires time and brains to figure out how to do right.

In short: keep pantyhose on.
OK no rush
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Old May 23rd, 2011, 06:40 AM   #92
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I really wanted to post up a lolcat or something, but I'll just come out and say it - this thread made me lol so hard!

Reading suggestions to the OP:

- Maximum Boost
- Street turbocharging
- Engine Management - Advanced Tuning

After a little more than "6 hours" of homework, please come back, repent, and start over.
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Old May 23rd, 2011, 10:31 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowspeed Lowside View Post
I think I need to correct you on several points....



If you read carefully, you'll notice that it wasn't about comparing a 'naturally aspirated engine' to a turbo! The diameter of the exhaust pipe is larger after the turbine, so according to PV=NkT the exhaust will be cooler. Here is a another way of looking at it: temperature is the average kinetic energy of the individual gas molecules and since the molecules 'hit' the turbine blades to spin the turbine wheel the molecules will slow down.

LOL. No, just because the diameter of the pipe will be larger doesn't mean the exhaust gas will be cooler unless you're talking about temp coming out of the muffler. The exhaust gas right after the turbo will be extremely hot.

I don't know where you get your info from...turbocharged 250cc are not typical, so any 'typical' values for 500000cc diesel engines running 800psi boost are not really helpful.

I get my info from 10 years of modifying turbocharged cars. Where's your experience?

Also, we want our lambda sensor to work at most loads not just at maximum. Which reminds me that we need to add a variable resistor to measure throttle position. Riding the bike through extreme conditions might require 'recalibration' by occasionally opening and closing the throttle all the way.

We might as well save $10 and use only one unheated sensor or possibly none at all. The fuel injection setup should be able to figure out air/fuel mixture by constantly varying the mixture by say 1% and checking how much the engine speeds up or slows down.



I don't think you understand the concept of a budget. Simply stating that something is 'complete junk' without providing an alternative is not helpful, and although I'm sorry to hear that you unsubscribed from this thread it's probably better you don't post anything.

I also provided you with the price range of good injectors. Anyone who's modified engines to produce more HP knows that using "budget" parts will invariably lead you to wasted money and time with a large scrap of metal that used to look like an engine.

To all others (if there are any left ) we have 4 intake valves so we might consider aiming 4 injectors at them. For an extra $40 we get a little bit of redundancy, so if one injector fails the computer can disable it and use the other one. We're also better prepared should we want to run pure ethanol (when gas hits $100/gal), which requires larger quantities of fuel.

LOL. Seriously? 4 injectors? LMFAO. I'm not going to even bother replying to that.

So? The problem is that LPH or GPH is irrelevant as long as the pump can can provide enough fuel. But, using a 100Gal/min pump generating 14psi and running 14 psi boost will result in zero fuel flow. This is obvious to me, I fail to see why you don't understand why the pressure of the fuel pump matters.

How in the world did you figure out that fuel and air flowing the same pressure would be = to 0 fuel flow? You don't push air and fuel thru the same tube. You have a throttle body and plenum that directs air and the fuel hose and injectors to direct fuel. Both flow into the cylinder and mix together. I didn't ever say there is any problem with LPH or GPH. You listed using a fuel pump with PSI. I was merely stating that fuel pumps are not rated using PSI, but LPH or GPH.

Really?

"my shadows mitsu turbo is fine and it has 125k on it without a BOV."


The purpose of the BOV is to protect turbine wheel when the throttle is closed quickly. So with appropriate throttle control a BOV would never trigger. We also don't need a device that prevents us from shifting into 1st gear and popping the clutch at 90mph.

So, I think we just saved $20. Also, trying to protect a $200 turbo with a $200 BOV seems a little extreme, don't you think? We can always add one later.

I know what a BOV is for. Thanks. Compressor surge also depends on the length and diameter of the intercooler pipes and the intercooler itself. Add to the fact that you'll have maybe 2' of piping and there's no way you're going to protect a turbo from compressor surge. If you read that thread, you would have seen some people who experienced compressor surge without the bov. Just because you found one pos car that could run without it doesn't mean a proper setup shouldn't have one. A cheap $20 one you're suggesting would likely just leak badly. I don't see anything wrong with protecting a $200 turbo with a $200 bov. Do you buy insurance for your car? If you don't buy a quality insurance part, then you'll just end up spending another $200 for another turbo.


True! But what do you think we need to spend on a piece of metal with holes - $400? Did you read somewhere that titanium with a signature by Leonardo DaVinci is much better than steel so we should be using that?

Do you know what shop rates are for custom projects? Try calling a local machine shop and telling them you want to have a custom flange made for your 250, one for the turbo inlet and one for the outlet. I'd love to know the answer. Can you make one yourself? Sure, I hope you have equipment able to cut and drill 3/8" steel. The turbo flanges are easy. The header flanges are easy. Can you cut and weld steel tubes for the custom manifold? If not, you're not going to find a shop that will do it for under $250.


I was thinking of using the built-in wastegate control of the RHF3 turbo, since it's built-in. The advantage of built-in things are that they are built-in so that it's really unnecessary to worry about extra stuff that is not built-in, as not built-in stuff is extra. Not to mention that not built-in stuff is extra, and since it is extra it will likely cost extra money. Money is the stuff we use to buy things and there is a limited supply of it.
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Old May 23rd, 2011, 11:30 AM   #94
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the biggest problem is when you take a small engine that makes 26 hp and double the power output.Then there is no room for error .What I mean is .IF you get everything set up perfect(as if ) then push the engine to the max.The slightest change in mixture or timing will blow the whole thing up.
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Old May 23rd, 2011, 02:44 PM   #95
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I get my info from 10 years of modifying turbocharged cars. Where's your experience?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experie..._to_experience

Immanuel Kant contrasted experience with reason: "Nothing, indeed, can be more harmful or more unworthy of the philosopher, than the vulgar appeal to so-called experience. Such experience would never have existed at all, if at the proper time, those institutions had been established in accordance with ideas."

Quote:
Originally Posted by CThunder-blue View Post
I also provided you with the price range of good injectors.
So, your argument is that if I find a supplier selling the VENOM injectors for $100/piece that will make them better? Sheesh...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CThunder-blue View Post
How in the world did you figure out that fuel and air flowing the same pressure would be = to 0 fuel flow?
Fuel injectors are little valves and fuel will only flow if the pressure on the one side is higher than on the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CThunder-blue View Post
Do you know what shop rates are for custom projects? Try calling a local machine shop and telling them you want to have a custom flange made for your 250, one for the turbo inlet and one for the outlet. I'd love to know the answer. Can you make one yourself? Sure, I hope you have equipment able to cut and drill 3/8" steel. The turbo flanges are easy. The header flanges are easy. Can you cut and weld steel tubes for the custom manifold? If not, you're not going to find a shop that will do it for under $250.
I hope you don't take offense, but I have limited experience in dealing with with functional illiterates. I have highlighted the passage that you have obviously faild to comprehend:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowspeed Lowside View Post
[...]Under the assumption[2] that our own labor is free, we have the right tools and know how to use them, the first thing we need to do is set two constraints, which I'll (rather arbitrarily) set at $1000 and 33kw.[...]
Explicitly, this means that we have the ability and tools to weld metal parts together.

@Racer X

Which is why the correct approach is to start low and see how far we can push it before our monitoring equipment tells us 'watch it!'.

BTW, are you using a device to shut off the ignition while upshifting? I was thinking, that tnstead of closing the throttle one might 'lift a foot' first to prevent the turbo from surging...
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Old May 23rd, 2011, 02:52 PM   #96
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I hope you don't take offense, but I have limited experience in dealing with with functional illiterates. I have highlighted the passage that you have obviously faild to comprehend:
None taken. I don't take offense from holier than thou people. Not everyone on this forum knows how to tig weld, which you seem to have overlooked. Nor is everyone a competent machinist and there are even people who don't even know what an angle grinder looks like. I don't really care. Build your budget project if you really think you can. In the end, if all you are planning to do is daydream on this subject and not actually do anything, this thread is pointless.
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Old May 23rd, 2011, 06:12 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by CThunder-blue View Post
None taken. I don't take offense from holier than thou people. Not everyone on this forum knows how to tig weld, which you seem to have overlooked. Nor is everyone a competent machinist and there are even people who don't even know what an angle grinder looks like. I don't really care. Build your budget project if you really think you can. In the end, if all you are planning to do is daydream on this subject and not actually do anything, this thread is pointless.
All true. And it should be clear that if a number of people want identical parts TIG-welded then there is a business opportunity for a member who can TIG-weld. In fact, economies of scale will eventually make this approach less costly.

But, for the sake of argument let's assume that there are four members interested in the project, then it is much more efficient for each member to order in multiples of four, keep one and send the other three to the second person, who keeps one, adds three new and sends them to the third, etc. Think: round robin assembly.

In my case, soldering components to an additional three circuit boards will require not much more effort as my skills are really rusty and I'm likely to waste a day making (s)crap until I figure out how to get it right, after which I figure that I'll need less than 30min/piece.

As for TIG welding, the maintenance guys at the plant up the road charge two large Papa John's pizzas for any sort of welding job. I suspect they eat the pizzas while 'training the new guy'.

I also have sporadic access to a plasma-cutter at a local machine shop (which may or may not come in handy). It's only a question of time until they call me to figure out why the computer isn't working the way it should (I told them I'd build them a fan-less system for the cost of the parts to limit the amount of dust that thing accumulates, but apparently they prefer to buy a new powersupply every couple of months).
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Old May 23rd, 2011, 06:34 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by CThunder-blue
I get my info from 10 years of modifying turbocharged cars. Where's your experience?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experie..._to_experience

Immanuel Kant contrasted experience with reason: "Nothing, indeed, can be more harmful or more unworthy of the philosopher, than the vulgar appeal to so-called experience. Such experience would never have existed at all, if at the proper time, those institutions had been established in accordance with ideas."


Your arrogance is appalling .The man has ten years of experience and scoff at it. You read crap on the internet for six hours and then go on to say you cant even solder.

Then you expect skilled craftsmen to make parts for Pizza or that some how there will be enough people that will need custom flanges to offset the cost.

I have tried to keep this thread a productive discussion .But you are a joke. You offend me so I don't care if you are offended
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Old May 23rd, 2011, 08:00 PM   #99
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I agree.

Two pages ago I (accurately) described this thread as Bat-Sh*t crazy. Reading this thread amounts to a mental health hazard.

It should be locked or deleted.
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Old May 23rd, 2011, 08:04 PM   #100
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Pioneers are the ones with arrows in their back (shot by the ones with 'experience').

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Your arrogance is appalling .The man has ten years of experience and scoff at it. You read crap on the internet for six hours and then go on to say you cant even solder.
In the mean time I've read crap for a lot more than six hours. Among other things, I've read that the available fuel injectors work differently than the man with ten years of experience thinks. On the other hand, when I told my friend's 8-year-old son (gifted, but with practically no experience at all) about the problem, he asked: "Wouldn't the piston suck out fuel when it's going down?" which means I was wrong and we might get non-zero fuel flow after all (although definitely not at the maximum rate).

Verdict: extra ice cream for the arrogant little brat who dares to point out mistakes made by a more experienced person!

Btw, unless you're suffering from delirium tremens you can teach yourself how to solder in a matter of hours. Once you've made a couple hundred joints you'll have developed a feel for how much and how long.

Here's an almost kkim-worthy DIY. With videos!
http://www.aaroncake.net/electronics/solder.htm
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Old May 23rd, 2011, 08:07 PM   #101
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I agree.

Two pages ago I (accurately) described this thread as Bat-Sh*t crazy. Reading this thread amounts to a mental health hazard.

It should be locked or deleted.
In logic, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or all people believe it; it alleges: "If many believe so, it is so."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
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Old May 23rd, 2011, 08:34 PM   #102
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I have tried to keep this thread a productive discussion .
RacerX, may I suggest a separate thread? Your earlier discussion here sounded very interesting and I'd love to hear more..
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Old May 24th, 2011, 12:18 AM   #103
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No one is putting anything in your back .I am in your face . You are not a pioneer .you are a joke .the only thing you will build is a pile of junk on a shelf in your parents garage. Don't talk about an eight year old . You know nothing about building a turbocharged engine .
You can't solder .that means you know nothing about electronics. Post up a photo of something that you have done becides talk.this thread is nothing but Bull .Everyone that reads it can tell you know nothing about the subject of turbocharging a motorcycle with a250cc engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowspeed Lowside View Post
Pioneers are the ones with arrows in their back. (shot by the ones with 'experience').



In the mean time I've read crap for a lot more than six hours. Among other things, I've read that the available fuel injectors work differently than the man with ten years of experience thinks. On the other hand, when I told my friend's 8-year-old son (gifted, but with practically no experience at all) about the problem, he asked: "Wouldn't the piston suck out fuel when it's going down?" which means I was wrong and we might get non-zero fuel flow after all (although definitely not at the maximum rate).

Verdict: extra ice cream for the arrogant little brat who dares to point out mistakes made by a more experienced person!

Btw, unless you're suffering from delirium tremens you can teach yourself how to solder in a matter of hours. Once you've made a couple hundred joints you'll have developed a feel for how much and how long.

Here's an almost kkim-worthy DIY. With videos!
http://www.aaroncake.net/electronics/solder.htm
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Old May 24th, 2011, 02:17 AM   #104
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Eureka!?

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You can't solder.
Then it's a good thing that the number of joints can be kept low if we use a factory soldered FPGA.

http://gadgetforge.gadgetfactory.net...butterfly_one/

http://www.cutedigi.com/product_info...oducts_id=4458

250K logic gates is total overkill (if we delegate the arithmetic to the tablet PC - but see below) yet $51 shipped is well within our budget and all necessary software is open source. As far as I can tell from the overflying the specs everything necessary for microsecond timing should be present in the preconfigured AVR8 (http://opencores.org/project,avr_core) processor.

One of the things I am topnotch at is writing high quality assembly code. To be honest, I wasn't entirely happy with the idea of relying on the Android OS to manage time critical code in the first place, but on a 8-bit processor one can fit a heck of a lot of code into 8K of program memory. The only drawback is that the 4K memory and lack of a floating point unit is insufficient to do audio processing, but knock detection isn't time critical.

I'm going to mull this over for a week - I have learned the hard way to not impulse-buy gadgets - but then I'm going to order one of these babies to play around with.
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Old May 25th, 2011, 06:13 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by lowspeed
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnNinjaGirl
Also, if it were the least bit of a good idea someone would have already done it.
If that were true, we'd still be using candles, I mean: torches, I mean: rely on moonlight.
Hyperbole never makes a point. You cannot compare something as niche as turbo charging a 250cc motorcycle to making light convenient and mobile.

As with everything development related the underlying driver is cost vrs reward. It's highly unlikely you would be able to market this toward the ex250 base therefore it would have to cost too much to be worthwhile.

You're better off just getting a built ninja650 and trying to fit the ex250 bodywork to it, then just tell people it's a 250.

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Old May 27th, 2011, 04:51 PM   #106
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$955.64 left

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I'm going to mull this over for a week - I have learned the hard way to not impulse-buy gadgets - but then I'm going to order one of these babies to play around with.
Mulling it over was good thing, it turns out. A much more powerful and appropriate device for less is:

USB 32-Bit Whacker - PIC32MX795 Development Board

Features:
  • 128KBytes of RAM
  • 512KBytes of Flash
  • 78 usable I/O pins
  • CPU runs at 80MHz
  • USB Bootloader

Against all better judgement I just impulse-bought one of these for $44.36 shipped, which means we have $955.64 left in our budget and six months for R&D. I figure we'll spend quite some time to find out how to generate an interrupt by connecting two wires and grounding a pin, and how to display the elapsed time between two groundings in microseconds on the screen.

What's the best way to monitor piston position? I'm pretty sure we don't want to tap into the distributor, because of the built-in timing advances and high voltages. So, do we attach a couple small magnets? And where would we attach them? Or is there a better way?

Interfacing with Android can wait until we actually get something working, so in the development phase I'll be using a x86-64 based computer to control and monitor the device.

I'll try to keep track of the tools I purchased as well.

7 Function Digital Multimeter

$2.99 w/coupon found in the Sunday paper.

Quote:
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Hyperbole never makes a point. You cannot compare something as niche as turbo charging a 250cc motorcycle to making light convenient and mobile.
The point (you missed) was about people arguing that innovation isn't possible because it's not already being done. I cannot fail to notice how people continuously make great efforts to discourage others from trying. I suspect, that many of the commentators in this thread harbor the misanthropic hope that any attempt to innovate fails so they do not have to deal with their narrow-mindedness should they be proven wrong.

Using electronics gives us better engine control which can give us better fuel economy in the mid-range. Better engine monitoring can help us get higher power in the top range because we can push the engine to the limit.
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Old May 27th, 2011, 05:32 PM   #107
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YES I want to call out to everyone. NO negative input on this thread. Lets see where it goes and above all .Lets keep it positive .

First of all there is no distributor there is a pick up coil . The flywheel has metal tabs that pass a coil of wire that is around an iron core. the placement of these metal tabs on the flywheel will tell the computer where the pistons are .

I don't know what type of pickups you are planning.BUT there is also a stator or alternator built into the flywheel . The electronic noise coming from the charging system will or may interferer with the pick up.SO as you plan the pick up . Noise suppression should be considered.
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Old May 27th, 2011, 06:01 PM   #108
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OK im in.

So for piston position why not use the cams? They already track piston position and the valve cover could be modded to add holes for some sort of sensor. Can't put magnets on the cams themselves due to their function but there may be something simple like a limit switch angled so that the cams tap them at a specific point. I want to say that the ex250 uses a 180 degree offset on firing. So cam 1 would be up when cam 2 is down.

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Old May 27th, 2011, 06:33 PM   #109
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The flywheel has metal tabs that pass a coil of wire that is around an iron core. the placement of these metal tabs on the flywheel will tell the computer where the pistons are .
And here I thought a crank-sensor was just a different word for a kook-sensor.

How many metal tabs are there? As soon as we have several metal tabs, we can get extremely accurate relative readings.

How can we figure out the absolute position? One missing tab would be sufficient, but there probably are other, better ways.

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OK im in.
But don't go out and spend any money yet, unless you want to help with bleeding edge R&D. There are going to be a lot of unnecessary expenses trying to get the prototype working. For example, I have no clue what other stuff I should have ordered from sparkfun to actually be able to do something useful. I frequently suffer from nervous checkout-button-click-finger-syndrome.

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Originally Posted by bob138 View Post
So for piston position why not use the cams? They already track piston position and the valve cover could be modded to add holes for some sort of sensor. Can't put magnets on the cams themselves due to their function but there may be something simple like a limit switch angled so that the cams tap them at a specific point. I want to say that the ex250 uses a 180 degree offset on firing. So cam 1 would be up when cam 2 is down.
I think Racer X is right. If there is a crank sensor built in, it'd be really stupid to not use it.
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Old May 27th, 2011, 06:58 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Lowspeed Lowside View Post
And here I thought a crank-sensor was just a different word for a kook-sensor.

How many metal tabs are there? As soon as we have several metal tabs, we can get extremely accurate relative readings.

How can we figure out the absolute position? One missing tab would be sufficient, but there probably are other, better ways.



But don't go out and spend any money yet, unless you want to help with bleeding edge R&D. There are going to be a lot of unnecessary expenses trying to get the prototype working. For example, I have no clue what other stuff I should have ordered from sparkfun to actually be able to do something useful. I frequently suffer from nervous checkout-button-click-finger-syndrome.



I think Racer X is right. If there is a crank sensor built in, it'd be really stupid to not use it.
I meant I was in on the positive attitude I'm broke as a joke.

So as for the crank sensor, that's a good point. That is what talks to the CDI box for firing plugs so it could be intercepted.

The only concern I have is that the flywheel might not have enough sensors to accurately gauge engine speed which could throw timing off, where as the cams actuate the intakes and therefore can be always trusted.

I may be completely wrong on this. My only experience with flywheels in person is 1st and 2nd gen ex500 flywheels. 1st gen ex500 only has one pickup and it maintains spark fine but it is also a wasted spark system I believe, where both plugs fire when 1 piston is at top. While this is fine for the plugs, it could be an issue with fuel delivery.

We are still talking about fule injection stuff right?

Sorry, kinda distracted, Bruins Tampa game

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Old May 27th, 2011, 11:31 PM   #111
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We are still talking about fule injection stuff right?
Eventually, that's the plan. At present I believe we should first try electronic control of the ignition timing. Apart from a handful of sub $1 components all the required hardware should be present. If we get two new spark plugs, I think it should even be possible to develop and test the system offline. When we're satisfied with testing we can then switch one plug at a time to limit the damage in case we still managed to mess things up.

At present I'm unsure about almost everything, but my current model is as follows:

The crank sensor generates interrupts on a pin. The interrupt handling routine sets a timer taking the elapsed time between past interrupts and our ignition timing function into consideration. When the timer goes off its interrupt handler closes the sparking circuit for the appropriate plug.

As we want to avoid dealing with high voltages, we should control the 12V circuit, which means we may need a capacitor which will discharge when closed, generate the high voltage in the coil and create the spark.

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Sorry, kinda distracted, Bruins Tampa game
Bruins win Game 7, advance to Stanley Cup Final

Still sober?
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Old May 29th, 2011, 03:38 AM   #112
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jonthechron (who has unfortunately been inactive for 6 months) has published the full wiring diagram and the crankshaft sensor has yellow and black/white cables going into the igniter. I don't want to look inside the igniter and reverse engineer what's going on there, so maybe I'll make the first project to figure out how to make a simple oscilloscope using the 10-bit analog-to-digital converters of our USB 32-Bit Whacker. If we're going to run temperature-, pressure-, lambda- and throttle-sensors, we'll eventually need to know how to use the underlying technology anyway, so this isn't a wasted effort.
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Old May 29th, 2011, 03:51 AM   #113
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The crank sensor is 5 volt AC. Do you have a manual? This can be mesured with the multmeter.
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Old May 29th, 2011, 05:03 AM   #114
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The crank sensor is 5 volt AC. Do you have a manual? This can be mesured with the multmeter.
Thanks!

I didn't consult the manual, because I didn't have one. but apparently you do and so does rapidshare . There's a bunch of other stuff I will need to check on, so having one will simplify things considerably.

Edit: thepiratebay has an older one
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Old May 31st, 2011, 05:49 PM   #115
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Lessons from Turbokart

http://www.turbokart.com/turbo_exciter.htm

The turbo he uses for his stock 22hp engine is the Lombardini (aka Mitsubishi) TD025-03C. I couldn't locate a single click-to-buy supplier for this turbo, so anybody with pricing/supply information please step forward.

Also:

Quote:
I noticed that the boost buildup was very linear to the throttle pedal, almost too much so. It is almost as if the turbo is too small for this engine, which is hard to believe.
If it's beneficial to keep the bike's characteristics up to 8000rpm unchanged (most of us will only want boost when we're riding more aggressively), this is probably not the right turbo for us (unless it's really cheap, in which case we could even consider using two). On the other hand, we could control boost with a servo-motor...

Speaking of servo-motors, if we manually close the throttle, we can have our electronics delay the closing of the actual butterfly-valve, shut off ignition and/or fuel supply, which should prevent compressor surge and eliminate the need for a BOV. And we can get cruise-control for free, as this can be done entirely in software.

His solution to the difficult problem of getting the A/F mixture right was to supplement the carburetors with FI, which is something we haven't considered. One pro would be that we could keep the entire throttle body stock and one fuel injector would be sufficient. I still think a full conversion is preferable as we'll need electronics anyway and we'd get better fuel economy, but I'm not entirely convinced.
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Old May 31st, 2011, 08:09 PM   #116
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MIPS vs. ARM (almost entirely Off-Topic)

When I was a kid, I made my baby steps in assembly programming on the 6502 (e.g. Commodore 64), to which the natural successor was the ARM processor (e.g. Acorn Archimedes), and not the 68000 (e.g. Commodore Amiga). Getting a PIC32 development board was done entirely because of price, and ceteris paribus I would without a doubt have chosen a Cortex (ARM) board. Avoiding branching with conditional execution is so cool! Not only that, but Android devices are based on ARM, so having to learn tricks and pitfalls of yet another instruction set seems like a PITA.

However, the more I read about the MIPS ISA, the more I am amazed at how powerful, beautiful and elegant it is in it's simplicity. Apparently I got lucky, because programming the PIC32 is going to be better than sex[*].






[*]
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Old June 1st, 2011, 12:49 AM   #117
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Not like it hasn't been done before...

Retrofit Engine Management System for Older and Custom Gasoline Engines

Bill of materials: $81.14

The system is designed to control engines with up to 12 cylinders and 24 injectors and our USB-Whacker has the connectivity stuff already on board, so we're going to require way fewer parts and prices for components have dropped since 2008.

Last but not least, the schematics will help a lot.
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Old June 1st, 2011, 07:09 AM   #118
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Your arrogance is appalling .The man has ten years of experience and scoff at it. You read crap on the internet for six hours and then go on to say you cant even solder.

Then you expect skilled craftsmen to make parts for Pizza or that some how there will be enough people that will need custom flanges to offset the cost.

I have tried to keep this thread a productive discussion .But you are a joke. You offend me so I don't care if you are offended
this. Although I have no personal experience with forced induction even I know enough about engines and turbocharging to know what you are trying to do here on a shoestring budget is ridiculous. Telling someone that your internet research (i don't give a flying **** how many hours you've studied) trumps 10 years of experience is downright ignorant and insulting.
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Old June 1st, 2011, 11:41 AM   #119
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this. Although I have no personal experience with forced induction even I know enough about engines and turbocharging to know what you are trying to do here on a shoestring budget is ridiculous. Telling someone that your internet research (i don't give a flying **** how many hours you've studied) trumps 10 years of experience is downright ignorant and insulting.
So, far almost every self-proclaimed expert has announced that it cannot be done because he cannot (or thinks he cannot or has heard from his cleaning lady's mother-in law's second cousin once removed that he cannot) do it.

For example, this is useless:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CThunder-blue View Post
[...]I also provided you with the price range of good injectors. Anyone who's modified engines to produce more HP knows that using "budget" parts will invariably lead you to wasted money and time with a large scrap of metal that used to look like an engine.[...]
Anybody who has actual experience in R&D knows that we're running a large risk of wrecking a lot of stuff during development. Experimenting with expensive components is just plain foolish. The primary objective is to get stuff to work. The secondary objective is to get stuff to work well.

Compare this to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo0stZomb13 View Post
If you have never ran a turbo carbed vehicle, then trust me its NOT FUN. I ran several bugs that way. Sooner or later they all saw mega squirt.
The next time this guy posts something, I'm going to pay much more attention, because he made several successful attempts before he concluded that it was NOT FUN. This post and the fact that electronics are cheap has made conversion to EFI a sub-goal.

Nevertheless, I'm beginning to suspect that a very large number of posters tries to compensate the higher bodily injury risk of motorcycling by displaying extreme cowardice when it comes to intellectual challenges.

Shoestring budget?

You don't seem to realize that the cost of developing the software alone will be approximately $50,000. However, our actual expenses will be much lower because we are doing all the R&D and installation ourselves. Why is that so hard to understand?

Why do you insist on being an ignoranus (a person who is both stupid and an anus)?
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Old June 1st, 2011, 12:05 PM   #120
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MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16
I guess the problem is the budget, at least it is for me . Even if all the electronics are FREE and work perfect . The mechanical part will be more than the budget will allow.
I am trying to keep an open mind. From my experience that involves THIS motorcycle for over 4 years of land speed racing and another 30 years of hot rodding and engine modifications tells me that getting something to work at all is the first thing.But failure means the engine is damaged and then where is the budget?
There is ONE turbo 250 ninja I know of .The owner I know personally. And I work with the builder on a project with my bike . The owner spent over 50,000 dollars on the bike. So forgive me for being skeptical that you can do it for 1000 dollars .

From you posts up to this point I have to ask if you even have a 250 ninja. Or have done any engine modifications. Even with my experience I am putting holes in pistons and breaking things . So does your budget include damaged parts? OR is it 50,000 dollars of R&D then 1000 dollars to build a system AFTER the R&D is done.

IF I where you I would dispense with name calling . You are a member of MENSA that to me means you can calculate the angle and friction coefficient of a knot .But are incapable of tying you shoes . No offence.
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