"i'm only human" -> not this guy

[alex.s]

his Y chromosome is decedent from ... well, i'll let you read. if anyone still doesn't believe in evolution... you're stupid.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...years-old.html

[YamiLionheart]

Pretty interesting

[allanoue]

It is not that they are stupid. They want to fool themselves into thinking they have some control over there own lives through religion. The feeling of no control increases stress. That is why I wish I could lie to myself and close my eyes to facts. You know it is stressful knowing the universe is one big f***ing game of craps.

[Snake]

Great info!

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by allanoue

It is not that they are stupid. They want to fool themselves into thinking they have some control over there own lives through religion. The feeling of no control increases stress. That is why I wish I could lie to myself and close my eyes to facts. You know it is stressful knowing the universe is one big f***ing game of craps.

You know it's possible to be religious and believe in evolution right? They are not mutually exclusive.

The opposite is also true

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

You know it's possible to be religious and believe in evolution right? They are not mutually exclusive.

The opposite is also true

You are certainly correct about believing in evolution and being religious.

If you believe the opposite then Alex is right

[mlj2093]

Good Find! Very interesting article! An I've gotta agree with Jiggs. Just because you are religious doesn't mean you have to believe in Creationism. I don't.

[alex.s]

even the pope believes in evolution.

[alex.s]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholi..._and_evolution

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by alex.s

even the pope believes in evolution.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-f...b_2122104.html

[xSean13]

I believe in what is logical. The amount of negative evidence against evolution is astounding.

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by xSean13

I believe in what is logical. The amount of negative evidence against evolution is astounding.

You can believe whatever you want, but you'd be wrong. I think it's the terminology that you people have such a hard time with. Here's a little bit of light reading to help clear things up.

Originally Posted by The Internets

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of knowledge that has been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Scientists create scientific theories from hypotheses that have been corroborated through the scientific method, then gather evidence to test their accuracy. As with all forms of scientific knowledge, scientific theories are inductive in nature and do not make apodictic propositions; instead, they aim for predictive and explanatory force.

The strength of a scientific theory is related to the diversity of phenomena it can explain, which is measured by its ability to make falsifiable predictions with respect to those phenomena. Theories are improved as more evidence is gathered, so that accuracy in prediction improves over time. Scientists use theories as a foundation to gain further scientific knowledge, as well as to accomplish goals such as inventing technology or curing disease.

Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge. This is significantly different from the word "theory" in common usage, which implies that something is unsubstantiated or speculative.

Evolution is not something to believe in. It just "is." The fact that you don't believe it doesn't change reality. And you truly are an idiot.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by xSean13

I believe in what is logical. The amount of negative evidence against evolution is astounding.

could you please present any negative evidence suggesting evolution is incorrect?

[CThunder-blue]

Originally Posted by alex.s

his Y chromosome is decedent from ... well, i'll let you read. if anyone still doesn't believe in evolution... you're stupid.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...years-old.html

There's a lot of supposition in that article and you want to call people stupid who don't want to fall into the same boat you are in. Awesome. No one is forcing you to believe in God, so how about you stop calling people stupid for not believing in evolution?

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by CThunder-blue

No one is forcing you to believe in God

who said anything about god?

like i said, the catholic church's position is not in opposition with evolution. i myself am agnostic. many people believe i'm atheist which is very much not the case. you see atheism is a negative assertion that without some kind of proof or evidence, logically the default position is false. but i realize that i really know nothing about how the universe was created. (none of us do) sure i know lots of people have lots of different opinions on it... created with intent in 7 days by a conscious being... spawned from an egg, birthed from a flower carried by a turtle, 11th dimensional "Membranes" colliding causing a large scale expansion from a infinitesimally small singularity... the list gets crazier and crazier. who am I to say what is right and what is wrong? i have nothing that says we weren't carried here on the back of a turtle. so why offend people who believe its true when i really have no valid alternative?

what i do have is billions upon billions of individual pieces of evidence, including you yourself, that shows the process of genetic mutation and natural advancement of more successful variants of a species leads to higher rates of breeding in those successful variants which leads to higher proliferation of the successful mutations in the genes in question which builds up in a completely natural self sustaining system to convert what once was a few chemicals getting mixed together in the atmosphere, into RNA, into DNA, into basic protein structures, all the way into single celled organisms, coalescing into multicelled organisms which eventually grew bigger and gained additional complexity, eventually developing primative nervous systems which grew into more complex nervous networks which further aided the survival of those genetic mutations..... wait a second why the **** am i explaining this? you probably stopped reading when i told you the truth about the catholic church not being against evolution.


i think i asked someone else the same question yesterday; if you are opposed to evolution so much, please tell me why? SPECIFICALLY, what about it do you believe is incorrect? what about it do you believe is in conflict with your beliefs? have you stopped to think that maybe you don't even know what your own religion claims is "true"?

do you believe in hereditary traits? do you believe in hair color? do you look like your father? why is that?

[mfresh]

I believe too many people confuse the "theory of evolution" with "the theory of human origin". The two are not identical.

"Evolution" exists, and this is particularly evident at the microscopic level. Evolution at the macroscopic level is also fairly evident but there are are certain assumptions made to explain the progression of microscopic changes that eventually may lead to changes at the macroscopic level.

In essence we assume evolution at a microscopic level will lead to evolution at a macroscopic level. I am not saying I disagree with this notion, after all it is entirely plausible that mutations or changes in say the genotype of an organism can manifest through its phenotype (mutations in genes/DNA can affect the organism physically).

So what I am saying is that we cannot, to my knowledge, be for certain that evolution happens at the macro-scale. It makes sense for it to happen given quite a large amount of evidence suggesting so, but there are still speculative factors involved.

Mostly due to the fact macro-scale evolution would take such a large amount of time to observe.

Anyways this is getting a bit long, but in short I am not really a creationist; however, I personally do not believe evolution, as it is currently presented, can sufficiently explain the origin of humanity.

Aren't we all a special bunch?

[CThunder-blue]

If you believe in evolution, why is that man has not evolved for thousands of years? Clearly, we can't be the end all. We still have diseases that kill us and not everyone is super intelligent. Evolution is a theory. You can claim facts all you want. You and every other scientist can't concretely determine how old the earth is or even how old man is. Carbon dating isn't exact either.

Your comment

what about it do you believe is incorrect?

is the defining statement here. Belief. Since we all have different beliefs, why call people stupid if they don't believe what you believe?

I don't want to debate creationism vs evolutionism. I just don't like it when people say "you're stupid if you don't believe in xyz."

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by CThunder-blue

why is that man has not evolved for thousands of years?

do you know what DNA is? it is kinda hard to deny DNA exists, with all the DNA evidence used in court cases today. do you know what a mutation in your DNA is? as in, why you aren't a carbon copy of your mother or father but in fact are unique? that is evolution. evolution doesn't happen as fast as religion. the changes you see over "thousands of years" are small and subtle. have you seen how some people have different sized toes? or different skin color? these subtle differences are the result of different lines of evolution in different areas of the world. in africa for example, humans developed much higher levels of melanin to protect their skin against the higher amount of sun in the desert. this article for example talks about one line of human evolution that has such a bizzare looking chromosome that its unique enough to track to a specific location, 300k years ago. evolving isn't some instantanous metamorphosis of a living creature into a slightly larger creature with extra capabilities like a pokemon. changes are extremely subtle, and lead to better solutions over thousands of generations. you can see changes much quicker in things that reproduce faster, for example the bacteria that are now antibiotic-resistant. do you think they just magically became antibiotic-resistant? maybe they always were, and were just dying for fun before.

Originally Posted by CThunder-blue

We still have diseases that kill us and not everyone is super intelligent.

many diseases are caused by genetic mutations. it is one side effect of evolution, mutations are random because it isn't know what is good and what is bad, you simply spam changes into the environment and the ones that do well will survive and breed and the changes that aren't good just die away from lack of food due to competition or disease in the case of really bad genetic mutations. and of the diseases that are caused by things like viruses and bacterial infections... what do you think a virus is doing? viruses and bacteria are CONSTANTLY EVOLVING. if they weren't, that flu vaccine from 10 years ago would still protect you from the current flu. except OOPS! its not the same flu, it has evolved since then. into a new strain. do you know what cancer is? in order for life to evolve, generations must die to make room for new generations with potentially beneficial genetic changes. DNA has a preprogrammed death-sentence called end-codeons and cancer happens when that part of the DNA is damaged. it can be damaged in a variety of ways, for example asbestos actually is small enough to get inside your dna and physically do damage to the endcodeon because of its molecular shape. its complete chance that it is the right shape. but that is life. a bunch of chances.

Originally Posted by CThunder-blue

You can claim facts all you want.

i don't think you know what a fact is.

Originally Posted by CThunder-blue

You and every other scientist can't concretely determine how old the earth is or even how old man is. Carbon dating isn't exact either.

do you know how carbon dating works?

Originally Posted by CThunder-blue

Your comment is the defining statement here. Belief. Since we all have different beliefs, why call people stupid if they don't believe what you believe?

you're allowed to believe the entire scientific community is wrong about the entire basis of our medical knowledge and i'm not allowed to believe you're stupid for that?

Originally Posted by CThunder-blue

I don't want to debate creationism vs evolutionism. I just don't like it when people say "you're stupid if you don't believe in xyz."

you are stupid if you refuse to see the facts in front of yourself because you think it somehow conflicts with something else you think you believe in even though the people who tell you how what you believe in works say that its fine to see the truth in front of you, you still deny yourself out of fear.

if creationism were true, why do we have disease? why do we have stupidity? why do we have birth defects? why do we have ANY issues? if an all-knowing devine creator designed us, why do we have flaws?

[alex.s]

[CThunder-blue]

Originally Posted by alex.s

if creationism were true, why do we have disease? why do we have stupidity? why do we have birth defects? why do we have ANY issues? if an all-knowing devine creator designed us, why do we have flaws?

The answer is in the bible. I could explain it to you, but if you don't believe in the bible or God, then the answer becomes meaningless.

[alex.s]

haha. i thought you were serious at first. well played sir. well played.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by alex.s

who said anything about god?

like i said, the catholic church's position is not in opposition with evolution. i myself am agnostic. many people believe i'm atheist which is very much not the case. you see atheism is a negative assertion that without some kind of proof or evidence, logically the default position is false. but i realize that i really know nothing about how the universe was created. (none of us do) sure i know lots of people have lots of different opinions on it... created with intent in 7 days by a conscious being... spawned from an egg, birthed from a flower carried by a turtle, 11th dimensional "Membranes" colliding causing a large scale expansion from a infinitesimally small singularity... the list gets crazier and crazier. who am I to say what is right and what is wrong? i have nothing that says we weren't carried here on the back of a turtle. so why offend people who believe its true when i really have no valid alternative?

what i do have is billions upon billions of individual pieces of evidence, including you yourself, that shows the process of genetic mutation and natural advancement of more successful variants of a species leads to higher rates of breeding in those successful variants which leads to higher proliferation of the successful mutations in the genes in question which builds up in a completely natural self sustaining system to convert what once was a few chemicals getting mixed together in the atmosphere, into RNA, into DNA, into basic protein structures, all the way into single celled organisms, coalescing into multicelled organisms which eventually grew bigger and gained additional complexity, eventually developing primative nervous systems which grew into more complex nervous networks which further aided the survival of those genetic mutations..... wait a second why the **** am i explaining this? you probably stopped reading when i told you the truth about the catholic church not being against evolution.


i think i asked someone else the same question yesterday; if you are opposed to evolution so much, please tell me why? SPECIFICALLY, what about it do you believe is incorrect? what about it do you believe is in conflict with your beliefs? have you stopped to think that maybe you don't even know what your own religion claims is "true"?

do you believe in hereditary traits? do you believe in hair color? do you look like your father? why is that?

Very well said, I agree with you 100%
However, I have a strong urge to insult you.
You suck.

[alex.s]

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by CThunder-blue

1)If you believe in evolution, why is that man has not evolved for thousands of years? Clearly, we can't be the end all. We still have diseases that kill us and not everyone is super intelligent. Evolution is a theory. You can claim facts all you want. You and every other scientist can't concretely determine how old the earth is or even 2)how old man is. Carbon dating isn't exact either.

Your comment is the defining statement here. Belief. Since we all have different beliefs, why call people stupid if they don't believe what you believe?

I don't want to debate creationism vs evolutionism. I just don't like it when people say "you're stupid if you don't believe in xyz."

1) Combine a long breeding cycle, that most mutations are either silent or deleterious & very few are germline mutations anyway. But you are wrong, humans have evolved over the last thousands of years, selective pressure is coming off slightly due to modern medicine, so the rate of evolution in humans will most likely decrease.

Evolution is at the molecular level, and changes are subtle, we're not going to suddenly gain another arm. The best way to find these changes (short of doing whole genome sequencing on everyone born from now on for the next few thousand years & plot their genetic sequence against mortality rates, which would be confounded by the lack of selective pressure due to modern medicine) is to look at changes that cause genetically recessive diseases & check their molecular changes against common diseases in the area for the last few thousand years.

Take sickle cell anaemia as an example. It's a recessive condition that mostly occurs in people of African extraction. In affected individuals (2 mutated genes) a drop in O2 levels can cause the red blood cells to change shape, which can cause blockages in veins & capillaries, but carriers (who have a single affected gene & a single normal gene) have a much higher resistance to malaria. This conferred an advantage to carriers of the sickle cell mutations.

Cystic Fibrosis is another good example, it's more common in Northern Europeans, in affected cases the individual fails to transport ions across a cell membrane. This leads to a build up of mucus in the lungs & severely reduces life expectancy due to recurrent lower respiratory tract infections, difficulty breathing, failure to thrive (infant grows slowly) & also causes infertility in males due to an absence of plumbing between male organs. However carriers lose a lot less fluids during bouts of cholera, so survive better during cholera epidemics & can continue to breed. A 25% loss rate (usually soon after birth without medical treatment) was not enough to stop this mutation from spreading.

2) Human lineage can be traced back through females via Mitochondrial DNA, and through males via their Y chromosome. You've hit the nail on the head saying that scientists can't say exactly how old humans are, this is because we evolved from similar but slightly different ancestors, who evolved from similar but slightly different ancestors, who evolved from... there is no specific genetic demarcation point as to what is human & what was 99.99999% the same but was not human

Of the ~3,000,000,000 bases in the human genome around 50% can be found in the same sequence in a banana plant's genome, that shows how far back common ancestry goes.

Phylogenetics is an incredibly interesting subject if you can wrap your head around it.

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by alex.s

do you know what DNA is? it is kinda hard to deny DNA exists, with all the DNA evidence used in court cases today. do you know what a mutation in your DNA is? as in, why you aren't a carbon copy of your mother or father but in fact are unique? that is evolution. evolution doesn't happen as fast as religion. the changes you see over "thousands of years" are small and subtle. have you seen how some people have different sized toes? or different skin color? these subtle differences are the result of different lines of evolution in different areas of the world. in africa for example, humans developed much higher levels of melanin to protect their skin against the higher amount of sun in the desert. this article for example talks about one line of human evolution that has such a bizzare looking chromosome that its unique enough to track to a specific location, 300k years ago. evolving isn't some instantanous metamorphosis of a living creature into a slightly larger creature with extra capabilities like a pokemon. changes are extremely subtle, and lead to better solutions over thousands of generations. you can see changes much quicker in things that reproduce faster, for example the bacteria that are now antibiotic-resistant. do you think they just magically became antibiotic-resistant? maybe they always were, and were just dying for fun before.



many diseases are caused by genetic mutations. it is one side effect of evolution, mutations are random because it isn't know what is good and what is bad, you simply spam changes into the environment and the ones that do well will survive and breed and the changes that aren't good just die away from lack of food due to competition or disease in the case of really bad genetic mutations. and of the diseases that are caused by things like viruses and bacterial infections... what do you think a virus is doing? viruses and bacteria are CONSTANTLY EVOLVING. if they weren't, that flu vaccine from 10 years ago would still protect you from the current flu. except OOPS! its not the same flu, it has evolved since then. into a new strain. do you know what cancer is? in order for life to evolve, generations must die to make room for new generations with potentially beneficial genetic changes. DNA has a preprogrammed death-sentence called end-codeons and cancer happens when that part of the DNA is damaged. it can be damaged in a variety of ways, for example asbestos actually is small enough to get inside your dna and physically do damage to the endcodeon because of its molecular shape. its complete chance that it is the right shape. but that is life. a bunch of chances.

Not to piss on your parade, some of what you said is spot on, some is close enough but the asbestos point is way off.

The 'end codeons' are calles Telomeres & they reduce in size every time the cell they're in divides. You have about 50 divisions before the cell is programmed to pack itself up & recycle itself, cancer occurs when the pack up & recycle signal is overpowered by a keep dividing signal.

Asbestos is a nasty little bastard of a chemical, it's not small enough to fit into DNA (some others are, Ethidium Bromide for example) and cause damage that way, it's very pointy & attracts macrophages, cells which digest invading bacteria. the macrophages get skewered & release their cocktail of unpleasantness into the surroundings causing massive damage & attracting more immune cells.

This pic shows one shard of asbestos that's got a couple of macrophages skewered on it

[alex.s]

"(A) Mechanical Damage. There is experimental evidence that very slim fibers (<60 nm, <0.06 μm in breadth) do tangle destructively with chromosomes (being of comparable size).[48][49] This is likely to cause the sort of mitosis disruption expected in cancer."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbestos



close enough.

[Whiskey]

I'd not seen that before, but there seems to be a few articles on it.

Seems to be the same process as with the macrophage, but as the lung cells don't have the bag of enzymes to dump everywhere destroying themselves they survive, divide & the asbestos spike prevents chromosomes from pulling apart correctly.


How did I end up getting into this after arriving back from the pub

[alex.s]

[alex.s]

[CynicalC]

[alex.s]

i keep trying to click "real" but its not working!!!