Ecotrons Install Thread

[choneofakind]

Well they can, just not quickly enough. And the problem is, the O2 sensors don't adjust by temporarily changing the mixture, they permanently change the map because they're only used in learning mode.

What we need is another sensor that reads the ambient air pressure so the kit can adjust for elevation/weather changes without changing the map or requiring closed loop to be used.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Well they can, just not quickly enough. And the problem is, the O2 sensors don't adjust by temporarily changing the mixture, they permanently change the map because they're only used in learning mode.

What we need is another sensor that reads the ambient air pressure so the kit can adjust for elevation/weather changes without changing the map or requiring closed loop to be used.

On a lot of bikes and cars, the O2 sensors are just for pollution control. Reportedly, the Ninja 300 only has one on the CA models and the 49 state models have none. They use a barometric sensor instead.

But even still, it wouldn't work with our bikes. Cars and factory bikes have some kind of mechanism to increase the air flow in high altitude areas because lowering the fuel flow is not always an option due to the mechanical limits of the injectors and the fact that you don't want it to idle too slow.

I'm wondering if Setasi has even done that trip with a carbed Ninja 250 and what the results were.

[choneofakind]

Other kits from Ecotrons have stepper motors controling the idle air screws. It would work fine.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Other kits from Ecotrons have stepper motors controling the idle air screws. It would work fine.

But didn't he say he had the screws backed out as far as they could go? That would imply that they aren't sufficient for high altitude use.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

But didn't he say he had the screws backed out as far as they could go? That would imply that they aren't sufficient for high altitude use.

I did have the screws backed out as far as they could go but I think if I adjusted the throttle plates to open a little, I could "close" the idle air screws more and be perfect at sea level so that closed is starting at 0... maybe.

Originally Posted by n4mwd

But even still, it wouldn't work with our bikes. Cars and factory bikes have some kind of mechanism to increase the air flow in high altitude areas because lowering the fuel flow is not always an option due to the mechanical limits of the injectors and the fact that you don't want it to idle too slow.

I'm wondering if Setasi has even done that trip with a carbed Ninja 250 and what the results were.

That's exactly the issue. Even if you got the perfect fuel ratio by lowering the fuel flow, you might still end up with a low idle and/or not enough power to stay idling. Doesnt quite change the situation.

I have not done the trip with carbs but Jiggles said that his 250 with pods (major cause) has a ton of trouble idling up on mt hamilton @ around 4000ft so who knows what would happen with carbs. Also, his BMW during this trip on certain occasions had a couple stalls because of elevation so it's possible that either way I might have some issues. I do think that if I had carbs, I could easily adjust the idle speed screw and be fine though since it essentially opens up the throttle plate and not have had too much of a problem. Hence my idea of swapping it out for a thumb screw.

[lgk]

i guess if you're going up to that high, the bike needs to learn at more of a restrictive environment when at sea level.

maybe wrapping half of the pod with duct tape, while retraining the ecu at sea level will help high altitude climbs.

[n4mwd]

Or a solenoid of some kind to open up another air hole. The UK throttle body has an extra butterfly valve that is servo controlled. Actually, forget the solenoid, to much power drain, the servo system sounds a lot better.

[choneofakind]

That second set of butterflies is used for small throttle control and throttle response off idle. Not sure what else it's used for.

Either way, you'd still need a sensor to tell the outside air pressure in addition to a MAP sensor. At least, the way I'm thinking, you'd need it.

Anyone have experience with this in cars? They have an extra sensor in the intake usually right?

[setasai]

Well during my trip it's not like I can "retrain" the ECU and bring it up there because I'd ride up to the top one night and then ride down the next. It's really something that needs to be adjusted faster as it changes. For reference, the highest altitude that we went was over 9000ft.

[choneofakind]

Like I said, we need a sensor to read the outside air pressure so it can adjust on the fly without requiring long term 'learning' via the O2 sensors. Just like we have an IAT sensor, we need an air pressure sensor.

[setasai]

Air pressure sensor plus stepper motors on the idle air screws would get pretty close but up to a certain extent. I think with this throttle body throttleplate adjustment might still be necessary.

Maybe the ports for the idle air screws could be made a little larger to have more an effect.

[lgk]

in cars that where the mass airflow sensor comes into play, right?

instead of purely using the intake manifold pressure, which fluctuates,
you could install this to calculate air density while the altitude/pressure changes.

the results would be real time, and the fuel map can be trimmed gradually.

[choneofakind]

Airflow sensor. That's what I was thinking of.

[n4mwd]

A second sensor just exactly like the map sensor we already have would work. You don't need anything fancy. In fact, the same one we have could probably adjust for changes in atmospheric pressure.

The sensor we have will read from just over atmospheric pressure to almost zero. Its main purpose is to tell the ECU which cylinder is firing and allow it to calculate proper fuel load. But when the bike is turned off (or just before its started), it could be used to read the atmospheric pressure and make mixture adjustments based on that.

That is not exactly what you want when you are riding straight up a big mountain, but to do any better, you'd need a second MAP sensor exposed to the air.

But neither is feasible with our kits because the ECU doesn't support a second MAP sensor nor do our TB's have servos.

[lgk]

What you are concerned with is air density, not necessarily pressure.

You can calculate density from pressure but it wont be as accurate as a sensor designed to measure density directly in the intake tract.

[n4mwd]

I think what is most relevant is oxygen. That's what we need to burn the fuel. Air density is how thick the air is and changes drastically with humidity and temperature as well as altitude. It can't be relied on to get the oxygen content. With a simple pressure sensor, the ECU can calculate the approximate altitude of the bike and make whatever adjustments it can. The pressure at sea level is almost 15 psi and drops to under 10 psi at 9000 feet.

http://www.altitude.org/air_pressure.php

The percentage of oxygen is directly proportional to the pressure.

[choneofakind]

^^ yeah, but density takes the water in the air into account correct? Pressure doesn't.

Either way, there could be some improvements made on the sensor front for the kit.

[lgk]

atmospheric pressure is only one part of the puzzle.

Systems using a MAF sensor, measure air mass, density, and temperature at the same time. the o2 sensor provides a closed loop, and the system is truly tuned no matter what. its the only system that accurately adjusts for a wide range of operating environments.


the throttle adjustment on my euro throttle could have servo mounted easily.
the only problem is that once i install that, i'll need another piggy back computer, sensors, and software to control it.

i think an easier route is to make a high altitude fuel map and a spacer for the throttle body stop. the rider just has to remember to remove the fuel map/spacer after he gets below a certain altitude.

[setasai]

Originally Posted by lgk

i think an easier route is to make a high altitude fuel map and a spacer for the throttle body stop. the rider just has to remember to remove the fuel map/spacer after he gets below a certain altitude.

Why spacer? Why not just swap out the throttle body stop screw with something finger adjustable?

[choneofakind]

That way you have a definite setting for your low altitude, rather than having to guess (or remember) how many turns it was. Then you're assured to be in the same spot every time.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by setasai

Why spacer? Why not just swap out the throttle body stop screw with something finger adjustable?

i figured it would be more accurate and cheaper.
plus i like macguyver solutions, lol.

this way it'll be easier to revert to the other map and remove the spacer when your half way down the mountain.

unless the finger screw had detents where you could count the clicks, it might be hard to gauge when to stop.

[setasai]

Hmm that's a good point. I just assumed that you'd have the bike running and you'd just turn it until it had a stable idle. Kinda like the idle speed screw on carbs.

[lgk]

while turning the throttle stop works, i found it to be a pain in the ass since it has a real broad adjustment.

also if you take it too far then the ecu thinks you opening the throttle, which disrupts trying to set the idle.

[setasai]

Another good point. You'll need to reset the ECU to recalibrate the TPS sensor.

I dont think it's necessary to adjust the throttle stop often if you can easily adjust the idle air screws but for my trip it wasnt enough. I'm not sure if I could "close" the idle air screws more at the beginning of sea level. If there was more turns I'd have opened up the throttle stop a little more and closed those. That way the range with the screws would be greater. I'll have to take a look the next time I yank the fairings off.

[lgk]

I try not to mess with the idle screws it could upset the sync.

[RacecarMan]

So some guys and I from school are planning to use this Ninja250R in a racecar for one of our school teams and we need to do some rewiring. If you look at the image I sent; there's a block that says 'STOCK HARNESS'. We don't have a stock harness, so we need to make the correct connections in place of where it says "stock harness". I have an idea of what needs to be done but I'm not 100% sure, so if someone could help me out with that, I'd really appreciate it.

[lgk]

what ecu are you using?

if you have the wires separated/organized it should correspond with your diagram.

you can direct attach with using connection block, but i highly recommend getting the harness rebuilt, it makes the connections water proof, eliminates connection errors, and is very secure.

[n4mwd]

If you have a running Ninja 250, then you already have a stock wiring harness.

I'm not sure I fully understand what you are saying. Are you saying you are trying to convert your bike to fuel injection? If so, just watch my video. Its pretty straightforward.

EDIT: If for some strange reason your bike was missing the wiring harness, then you should just buy a new one on ebay.

[RacecarMan]

We're putting the Ninja 250R engine into a small-scale hybrid racecar, when we bought the engine it didn't come with the stock harness.

We have this EFI kit: http://www.ecotrons.com/Kawasaki_Nin...c_EFI_kit.html

[n4mwd]

The kit needs the existing wiring harness to provide power, ignition pickup and coil signalling. Hopefully you have the ignition coils too.

Attached is the ignition wiring schematic.

[RacecarMan]

Yea we have them. Buying a stock harness was one of our options, but we were just trying to minimize costs.

[n4mwd]

If you are planning to have a charging circuit for the battery, then you'll also need the regulator and associated wiring. The alternator is the three wire plug and the ignition pickup is the two wire plug coming off the engine.

Only the 2 wire plug is used by the efi kit.

I'm curious why you bought an EFI kit rather than a used carb?

Anyhow, I suggest that you contact Matt of ecotrons and ask him for the OEM ECU connector pinout.

[choneofakind]

Question for all.

The only difference between the newgen and pregen kit is the wiring harness, correct? In theory, could you use a pregen kit for a newgen if you rewired the connectors?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Question for all.

The only difference between the newgen and pregen kit is the wiring harness, correct? In theory, could you use a pregen kit for a newgen if you rewired the connectors?

And the mix. I think newgens use different jetting. But that is programmable. Your programming is probably more equivalent to a newgen because you don't have OEM cans.

Also, the igniter is different so you would need a different connector.

Pregen:


Newgen

[choneofakind]

Thanks D.

So the only physical difference would be the connector to the OE harness. But since it has learning mode, the fuel mapping shouldn't be an issue.

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Thanks D.

So the only physical difference would be the connector to the OE harness. But since it has learning mode, the fuel mapping shouldn't be an issue.

yeah just the connectors. The maps for the newgen and pregen are all the same. Plus ur uploading ur rich map so no differences there.

U switching for something newer?

[Felipe the Ant]

Anyone else ever have issues with the gauges not reading properly in procal? TPS seems to read IAT, idk what IAT reads. They're all messed up except rpm, map, spark and ECT. Everything looks ok in list mode though and there are no DTC and the bike runs. Idk what's going on here but it's making it a pain to tune

[lgk]

Have you installed the latest software

[Felipe the Ant]

Yeah, right off the website

[speedpro]

I'm sorting out my FZR based engine at the moment and have spent lots of time recently with a PC connected to the bike while it's running. The gauges have always been doing what they should. I am using the whole Ninja kit including all the sensors.