Here's why you don't use the rear brake in a panic stop - Page 2

CC Cowboy · February 6th, 2013, 05:29 PM

Funny video, was anyone hurt?

Trailerboy531 · February 6th, 2013, 05:30 PM

Because "enough room to stop" assumes perfect braking technique and even then it's not a sure thing. The lane in his right was NOT slowing down or stopping. Rather the car in front of him panicked over a car entering the shoulder and hit the brakes. So if you watch the video again you'll see that there was plenty of space and speed in the #2 lane and it would have been the right thing to do.. as many others in this thread have pointed out.

CZroe · February 6th, 2013, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tooblekain

Wow...glad you're okay.

I watched the video and I actually have ran into situations exactly like yours a few times.

What I wouldve done differently was actually swerve right and go to the #2 lane to avoid and should get away unscathed...the danger at that point would have been if the Toyota would have swerved too.

Considering the situation and Im not sure how many miles youve logged on the bike you did okay and its good you're fine. THis is coming from someone that has probably close to if not more than 100,000 commuting miles on bikes.

Also, it looks like you could have stopped the bike a lot faster and sooner if you decided to not swerve to the other lane. However it can be hard to tell since it is a wide angle camera.

I think it would be a good idea to actually practice front brake threshold. I know Lee Parks does a school where you practice that and Keith Code's CSS has a bike where you can practice this drill. Believe it or not you can be hard on the front brakes and come to a stop pretty quick, but you need to be smooth.

EDIT: I watched the video a second time and timed the gap you had between the car in front of you and your bike...it looked like 3 seconds...plenty of time to come to a full stop.

We know. The rear broke loose and he couldn't use maximum braking on the front while swerving.

CZroe · February 6th, 2013, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trailerboy531

Because "enough room to stop" assumes perfect braking technique and even then it's not a sure thing. The lane in his right was NOT slowing down or stopping. Rather the car in front of him panicked over a car entering the shoulder and hit the brakes. So if you watch the video again you'll see that there was plenty of space and speed in the #2 lane and it would have been the right thing to do.. as many others in this thread have pointed out.

That's part of my point: Moments earlier the lane in front was not slowing down or stopping either. If you don't anticipate that these things often involve multiple lanes, your assumptions might one day kill you. We know that it wasn't the case now, but the van entering the emergency lane may have easily been doing so to avoid rear-ending another car just ahead, leaving the vehicle behind even less warning. If the vehicle ahead wasn't already involved with a vehicle in the right lane, the next one in line was likely to swerve right to avoid it and the van on the left. That is why these things often involve multiple lanes. Stopping must be a consideration when planning escape routes.

allanoue · February 6th, 2013, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falcor

Like you've said in your crash thread you would have been totally fine if you hadn't used rear, had ABS, and didn't get distracted for that little bit

Nice smile btw.

out of 43 posts

Z300 · February 6th, 2013, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles

What bike should I destroy next?

this one

or this one

StephenA · February 6th, 2013, 05:51 PM

Falcor · February 6th, 2013, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninja yas

this one

or this one

That makes two votes!

Jiggles · February 6th, 2013, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tooblekain

Wow...glad you're okay.

I watched the video and I actually have ran into situations exactly like yours a few times.

What I wouldve done differently was actually swerve right and go to the #2 lane to avoid and should get away unscathed...the danger at that point would have been if the Toyota would have swerved too.

Considering the situation and Im not sure how many miles youve logged on the bike you did okay and its good you're fine. THis is coming from someone that has probably close to if not more than 100,000 commuting miles on bikes.

Also, it looks like you could have stopped the bike a lot faster and sooner if you decided to not swerve to the other lane. However it can be hard to tell since it is a wide angle camera.

I think it would be a good idea to actually practice front brake threshold. I know Lee Parks does a school where you practice that and Keith Code's CSS has a bike where you can practice this drill. Believe it or not you can be hard on the front brakes and come to a stop pretty quick, but you need to be smooth.

EDIT: I watched the video a second time and timed the gap you had between the car in front of you and your bike...it looked like 3 seconds...plenty of time to come to a full stop.

I had 3000mi on the n1k. The thing about swerving right is you don't necessarily know if other traffic is stopping up there too.

Also, I was focused on the van I wanted to make sure he wasn't going to swerve back in to me so when I saw the sedan braking it surprised me and I tried to brake too. I know the threshold of the front brake, the issue was that as I was coming close to that threshold the rear locked up cuz I hit it like an idiot. So once the bike started swerving I lost a lot of braking potential.

Oh and you're close! It was 2.6 seconds

Jiggles · February 6th, 2013, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

Funny video, was anyone hurt?

Unfortunately, there was one fatality

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninja yas

this one

or this one

Idk what those are but they don't have windshields

ADoMinGu3z · February 6th, 2013, 07:55 PM

jiggles = drift king

Z300 · February 6th, 2013, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Unfortunately, there was one fatality

Idk what those are but they don't have windshields

You dont need em!! sexy as bike@!@!@!

First one is triumph street triple 2013
Second one is triumph speed triple 2013

tnr4 · February 6th, 2013, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninja yas

You dont need em!! sexy as bike@!@!@!

First one is triumph street triple 2013
Second one is triumph speed triple 2013

Yup, they don't make good sport-tourers. That's why I sold mine.

However, Triumph does put that beautiful triple mill in their Tiger adventure bikes. Adventure looks aren't my style, but you could ride that thing all damn day, and that 1050 or 1200 triple just sounds KILLER. Monster torque EVERYWHERE. RAWR.

(Although, full disclosure: I've only ridden the 675 triples; I'm just extrapolating, based on what I know plus what other fellow Trumpeters say.)

Jiggles · February 6th, 2013, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADoMinGu3z

jiggles = drift king

Let's race bro!

antiant · February 6th, 2013, 08:10 PM

I got distracted by your other videos...

Link to original page on YouTube.

LOL.

Jiggles · February 6th, 2013, 08:11 PM

I suck at kenpo

nickjpass · February 6th, 2013, 08:30 PM

Stop blaming the bike and just learn to use the rear brake properly... It decreases your stopping distance.

choneofakind · February 6th, 2013, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickjpass

It decreases your stopping distance.

There's been plenty of threads bickering about that Nick. Yes, it can decrease your stopping distance, but only minimally, especially when we consider how little overall effect it has and how much concentration/dexterity it takes to balance 2 wheels at the threshold of skidding to get maximum braking vs only doing that with the front wheel.

IMHO, it's better to just focus on one brake (the front, because it has the most power) and do it well than it is to attempt to get the rear brake in there.

Jiggles · February 6th, 2013, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickjpass

Stop blaming the bike and just learn to use the rear brake properly... It decreases your stopping distance.

When did I ever blame the bike

And I know how to properly use the rear, abstinence.

Jiggles · February 6th, 2013, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by choneofakind

There's been plenty of threads bickering about that Nick. Yes, it can decrease your stopping distance, but only minimally, especially when we consider how little overall effect it has and how much concentration/dexterity it takes to balance 2 wheels at the threshold of skidding to get maximum braking vs only doing that with the front wheel.

IMHO, it's better to just focus on one brake (the front, because it has the most power) and do it well than it is to attempt to get the rear brake in there.

Another thing people don't mention about locking up the rear is that it turns off your engine too

choneofakind · February 6th, 2013, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles

And I know how to properly use the rear, abstinence.

*pretends he didn't just laugh at that*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Another thing people don't mention about locking up the rear is that it turns off your engine too

Yeah, haha. Been there, done that. I've forgotten the clutch in a panic stop before. I think we all have/will at some point.

Jono · February 6th, 2013, 08:58 PM

Damn, you suck at riding bro!

But, you are damn good at crashing! Keep it up Jiggles.

ADoMinGu3z · February 6th, 2013, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Let's race bro!

i think you would win seeing how i only have a 250 and all lol

Jiggles · February 6th, 2013, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADoMinGu3z

i think you would win seeing how i only have a 250 and all lol

Hey me too!

But mine is faster than yours

ADoMinGu3z · February 6th, 2013, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Hey me too!

lol that was kinda the joke.

psych0hans · February 6th, 2013, 09:45 PM

This happens to me so often it's not even funny... Tho I never actually use my rear brake, I find myself making too many "emergency" stops to be good... Also my front wheel looses traction pretty quickly... Also, my brakes suck... I blame my brakes and my reaction time I guess... Not in that order... Brakes are being completely upgraded, reaction time I dunno so much about... Practice I guess... Glad you made out ok.

CZroe · February 6th, 2013, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Another thing people don't mention about locking up the rear is that it turns off your engine too

Even if you aren't grabbing the clutch when you brake, the engine will restart as soon as the rear regains traction. Engine braking will interfere by adding an unpredictable amount of assistance with the rear brake making it difficult to gauge how much pressure to apply. That's why I never combine the two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by psych0hans

This happens to me so often it's not even funny... Tho I never actually use my rear brake, I find myself making too many "emergency" stops to be good... Also my front wheel looses traction pretty quickly... Also, my brakes suck... I blame my brakes and my reaction time I guess... Not in that order... Brakes are being completely upgraded, reaction time I dunno so much about... Practice I guess... Glad you made out ok.

What tires are you running?

Alex · February 6th, 2013, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CZroe

Even if you aren't grabbing the clutch when you brake, the engine will restart as soon as the rear regains traction.

Depends on the bike, the gear the bike is in, and the speed. A 250 will restart the engine pretty much instantaneously once the rear wheel gains speed again, as there is so little mass in the engine. A big inline-4 with high compression takes quite a bit more energy to get spinning, so if you're in a high gear and the road speed is coming down, the rear wheel may never regain enough traction to spin the engine fast enough to restart smoothly before the bike comes to a stop. Slipper clutches affect this behavior as well, letting the rear wheel spin faster than the engine, and therefore not bringing the engine up to speed fast enough to restart.

psych0hans · February 6th, 2013, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CZroe

What tires are you running?

Stock IRCs right now... Getting psd by next week...

ChaoSS · February 7th, 2013, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Yea I usually do ride closer to the line since it makes me more visible to other cars and it has less crap than the middle portion.

What's that phrase about a bunch of little things to cause an accident? And the absence of just one would prevent the accident?
If the van hadn't gone left, if the sedan hadn't stopped, if I hadn't hit the rear, if I'd been in the right portion of my lane

Yup. I was just saying something about that in the thread about the assholes blocking off the highway for a marriage proposal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trailerboy531

Actually you had just moved past a car on your right before you hit the brakes which means 2 things. 1) It's open - there is a space for you to fit as you can see in the video and 2) you are moving faster than the traffic in that lane so you don't have to worry about being rear ended so long as you swerve and don't cut a lot of speed.

I was thinking about this today while out riding and driving. It seems a lot of people have the reaction to slow down and swerve, when that is often the worst possible thing to do. I had someone do that right in front of me when they almost rear ended someone, and if I hadn't seen it coming before she did it, I'd have had a hyundai hood ornament on the front of the truck. People don't realize that swerving in front of a semi doing 20 mph slower than it and slamming on your brakes is a bad idea.

If you accelerate into the other lane, you have a much lower chance of being hit from behind.

Now, true, sometimes traffic in front of you can slow down too, but I'd rather deal with that than get hit from behind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles

I had 3000mi on the n1k. The thing about swerving right is you don't necessarily know if other traffic is stopping up there too.

You know better if you are sitting almost between the lanes instead of in the middle of the lane.

So when are we going to see pictures of your new Concourse?

dooby · February 7th, 2013, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Another thing people don't mention about locking up the rear is that it turns off your engine too

Is that what the red light coming on signifies at 0:17 (and 0:56 in the slow-mo)? That's the point at which the oil pressure (?) light comes on since the engine (hence oil pump) stopped rotating?

Cheers, Pete

Gurk · February 7th, 2013, 08:09 AM

You kids with goddamn A.D.D.

Glad ur ok. I think you tensed up and had some input on the bars too. I stopped with rear sliding before. You keep riding the slide and apply front brake mostly it doesn't go that crazy or out of line unless you try to swerve while you slide the rear. Then again best to not slide the rear of course lol.

Motofool · February 7th, 2013, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurk

You kids with goddamn A.D.D.

"AD, Attention Disorientation, affects riders at all levels including professionals. We’ve handled more pro riders than anyone else in the world, trust me on this one, they have the same problems." - Keith Code

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/in...?showtopic=978

CC Cowboy · February 7th, 2013, 09:12 AM

Has anyone ever taken the rear brake (break) off. With all this talk about not using the rear brake and how bad it is, why do these bike come with a rear brake? If you take it off then you can't use it and crash. I feel thick soled sneakers would be safer to stop in a panic situation.

If we had a crash test dummy (with a bike) we could experiment.

ADoMinGu3z · February 7th, 2013, 10:16 AM

i think the scariest part of jiggles situation is what would had happened if he actually broke hard enough to stop and not hit the car. whose to say the person behind him would do the same.

dino74 · February 7th, 2013, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles

What bike should I destroy next?

If Jigs gets a 300, I'm first in line for salvage rights when he crashes it.

Jiggles · February 7th, 2013, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dooby

Is that what the red light coming on signifies at 0:17 (and 0:56 in the slow-mo)? That's the point at which the oil pressure (?) light comes on since the engine (hence oil pump) stopped rotating?

Cheers, Pete

Yep

CZroe · February 7th, 2013, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADoMinGu3z

i think the scariest part of jiggles situation is what would had happened if he actually broke hard enough to stop and not hit the car. whose to say the person behind him would do the same.

A vehicle stopping in time is the only way to break the cycle. Once stopped you can still use the remaining room to go forward or around. Those options still exist and I think it's well understood that you need to look out behind you after an emergency stop.

LNasty · February 7th, 2013, 01:33 PM

Holy christ man, now I understand the other thread on which bike you should get next. at least no femur snap this time

Jiggles · February 7th, 2013, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LNasty

Holy christ man, now I understand the other thread on which bike you should get next. at least no femur snap this time

Luckily it was titanium reinforced

February 6th, 2013, 05:29 PM	#41
CC Cowboy ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Whodat Location: Ware Is.,MA Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): I pass the wind! Posts: A lot. MOTM - Mar '13, Jun '14	Funny video, was anyone hurt? __________________________________________________ If everything seems under control; you're just not going fast enough!

February 6th, 2013, 05:30 PM	#42
Trailerboy531 Gear crash test dummy Name: Max Location: South Bay (So. Cal) Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Ninja 250 race bike, 2014 ZX-636r Posts: A lot.	Because "enough room to stop" assumes perfect braking technique and even then it's not a sure thing. The lane in his right was NOT slowing down or stopping. Rather the car in front of him panicked over a car entering the shoulder and hit the brakes. So if you watch the video again you'll see that there was plenty of space and speed in the #2 lane and it would have been the right thing to do.. as many others in this thread have pointed out. __________________________________________________ CVMA #531

February 6th, 2013, 05:51 PM	#47
StephenA Riding Ruby.. Name: Stephen Location: SoCal Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2014 Yamaha Bolt R-Spec, 2007 Ninja 250R Posts: 392	__________________________________________________ Unregistered

February 6th, 2013, 08:11 PM	#56
Jiggles Jigglin' your Jiglets Name: Sean Location: San Jose, Ca Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2009 K1300S, 2013 Ninja 300, 2011 Ninja 250R, Faster than Unregistered's ninjette Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 1 MOTM - Apr '13	I suck at kenpo __________________________________________________ If the Ninja 250 doesn't have enough power for you, then you don't know how to ride it. AFM #676 Supersports are for n00bs

February 6th, 2013, 08:30 PM	#57
nickjpass #squid Name: nickypoo Location: Five Guys Join Date: Jul 2011 Motorcycle(s): Track dedicated 2008 ZX6R Posts: A lot. MOTM - Jul '16	Stop blaming the bike and just learn to use the rear brake properly... It decreases your stopping distance. __________________________________________________

February 6th, 2013, 07:55 PM	#51
ADoMinGu3z ninjette.org member Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 117	jiggles = drift king

February 6th, 2013, 08:10 PM	#55
antiant antiant Name: antiant Location: Cali Join Date: Aug 2012 Motorcycle(s): None Posts: A lot. MOTM - Oct '14	I got distracted by your other videos... Link to original page on YouTube. LOL.

February 6th, 2013, 08:58 PM	#62
Jono ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Jono Location: Memphis, TN Join Date: Sep 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Triumph Street Triple, 2009 KLX250SF, 2003 Suzuki SV650S (Sold), 2006 Ninja 250 (Sold) Posts: A lot.	Damn, you suck at riding bro! But, you are damn good at crashing! Keep it up Jiggles.

February 6th, 2013, 09:45 PM	#66
psych0hans ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Hansveer Location: Bombay, India Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250r - Track whore, Ninja 300 - SOLD, KTM RC390 - Orange Hulk, Ducati 899 Panigale - Red Devil. Posts: A lot.	This happens to me so often it's not even funny... Tho I never actually use my rear brake, I find myself making too many "emergency" stops to be good... Also my front wheel looses traction pretty quickly... Also, my brakes suck... I blame my brakes and my reaction time I guess... Not in that order... Brakes are being completely upgraded, reaction time I dunno so much about... Practice I guess... Glad you made out ok. __________________________________________________ GETTING BACK INTO RIDING? Read this.

February 7th, 2013, 08:09 AM	#72
Gurk Done here. Name: - Location: Track Join Date: Jul 2011 Motorcycle(s): - Posts: A lot.	You kids with goddamn A.D.D. Glad ur ok. I think you tensed up and had some input on the bars too. I stopped with rear sliding before. You keep riding the slide and apply front brake mostly it doesn't go that crazy or out of line unless you try to swerve while you slide the rear. Then again best to not slide the rear of course lol.

February 7th, 2013, 09:12 AM	#74
CC Cowboy ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Whodat Location: Ware Is.,MA Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): I pass the wind! Posts: A lot. MOTM - Mar '13, Jun '14	Has anyone ever taken the rear brake (break) off. With all this talk about not using the rear brake and how bad it is, why do these bike come with a rear brake? If you take it off then you can't use it and crash. I feel thick soled sneakers would be safer to stop in a panic situation. If we had a crash test dummy (with a bike) we could experiment. __________________________________________________ If everything seems under control; you're just not going fast enough!

February 7th, 2013, 10:16 AM	#75
ADoMinGu3z ninjette.org member Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 117	i think the scariest part of jiggles situation is what would had happened if he actually broke hard enough to stop and not hit the car. whose to say the person behind him would do the same.

February 7th, 2013, 01:33 PM	#79
LNasty Daily Jap rider Name: Lance Location: La Porte Join Date: Dec 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2012 Ninja 250r Posts: A lot.	Holy christ man, now I understand the other thread on which bike you should get next. at least no femur snap this time

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