Ninjette seemed fine, but now won't start.

[ACL 9000]

Hey everyone! I'm new here, but I've been lurking for a couple months just checking out old threads and trying to absorb what I could. I've run into a problem with my bike and I was hoping I could get some advice if I described my trouble and how I'm trying to solve it.

Check lower for the short version.

I'll start at the beginning: The bike is a 2005. When I bought it the odometer read something around 1850 miles. That was in June, but I didn't ride it much until late July because I was slow to set up insurance and get it registered. Since I got my tag I've put only about 1000 miles on it.

When I picked it up the battery was weak and it didn't like to start when cold, and was just generally grumpy. Out came the old battery, in went a new one from Advance Auto. The seller – who wasn't really the PO, just a guy flipping a bike for cash – said he'd synchronized the carbs, but hadn't cleaned them. I suspect the bike sat unused for close to eight years. I ran some Seafoam in the first tank of gas I put in it, and changed the oil (with the Rotella T6 the wiki mentions) after running through that tank. With a new battery, fresh gas, and a few recent miles on the clock, the bike really perked up.

I didn't have any gear until mid-September, just because I'm slow like that. As a result I never rode on any highways until very recently. This whole time, at speeds of ~45 mph or less, everything seemed like it was working great. After I got my protective gear I went for an exit-to-exit hop on a state highway I know has light traffic, just to see what 70 felt like. That first time out, everything still seemed to be great.

Last week I planned to go for a longer ride incorporating more different types of roads – such as that highway – just so I could keep improving as long as possible before everything got covered in snow and ice for months. This time the bike seemed to run out of gas at speed, so I turned the petcock to reserve and waited to feel an improvement that never came. After a few moments I cranked the throttle way open to see what would happen. Revs climbed a little sluggishly to 9000 and parked there. My exit came up, and I hopped off like I planned. When I got to the stop at the end and pulled the clutch lever I noticed everything seemed quiet, and realized the engine had died.

At that point I assumed I had just run it completely out of gas somehow. I checked visually in the tank and it was definitely way low, so I grabbed a can and filled it at a nearby station and put it in the bike. My next few attempts at starting the engine didn’t work out. The failure to start reminded me of the first couple tanks of gas when the bike seemed very finicky, as well as the few times I forgot to turn the fuel on and noobfully tried to start it with dry carbs. I decided to wait a few minutes and give it one more chance, and on that attempt it did start, but refused to run steadily, as if cold-starting without proper choke. I tried that a few more times, the bike agreeing to continue running only when I applied a little throttle, until I decided I’d just try to ride it back to my house on slow roads and see what happened. After only a few miles it perked up again, and I could sit at a stoplight and let it idle without worrying.

That night I started it again to ride a short distance, and it was once again reluctant, but the temperature was also about 40 degrees, so I chalked it up to that.

Assuming that I had simply run out of gas the day before, I took it out again the next morning. It started up as normal, but I thought maybe it sounded a little rougher. I attributed that to paranoia, threw on my gear, and started off. I got back on the same highway as before, and experienced pretty much the same thing. Running up close to 12k on acceleration, topping out at about 70, or wherever 9000 rpm in top gear puts me, and then it started to slug out. I hopped off at the first exit and noticed some backfiring or some other kind of popping on deceleration. It died at the stop.

So, I brought it home and put it in the garage, and that’s where it is.


TL;DR:
Bought a bike that sat, it ran fine for a couple months of low speeds, then got super angry at me and died on one of the first highway excursions. Now it pretty much refuses to start.


I looked around on this board and a few other places and concluded that a valve adjustment might solve the problem, so I ordered the tool and the gauge, and I’m going to take care of that when they arrive. I suspect the bike never got the 500-mile adjustment, so this is probably in order anyway. I’m also open to the possibility that there is a fueling problem, either some mechanism has come way out of tune, or a chunk of crud is blocking something, or whatever. The spark plugs might also be crummy for all I know. I bought new NGKs when I got the bike, but I didn’t feel like going to the trouble to get under the tank just then. I guess I’ll do that now.

My questions to you fine people are as follows:

1. Does tight valves sound like the problem? It’s the closest thing to an explanation I could find in my searching the past couple days.
2. Would I benefit from cleaning the carbs, or can I put that off for now, given that it ran 900+ miles without complaint until I got it up over 60?
3. What other sorts of things can cause this phenomenon, that you know of? I think of myself as a fast learner, and capable of grasping the concepts that underpin the workings of an internal combustion engine, but I'm definitely too ignorant to diagnose this on my own right now.

At this point I don’t suspect the engine is actually damaged or anything; it just seems suddenly reluctant to run. I’d really like to get it back in shape so I can put a couple hundred more on it before the weather becomes really cruel.

[jkv45]

How does the inside of the tank look? If it sat for an extended period with a low level of fuel it may have a fair amount of rust. That may be clogging the fuel inlet. There's also a screen right at the inlet on the carb that may be clogged. I'd open the floatbowl drains and catch the fuel to see what it looks like.

You still may need to pull the carbs and clean the jets. If you do, be sure to do some research and be sure you've done it correctly the first time.

Look at the air filter and make sure there's nothing covering the intake snorkel.

I'd add the correct amount of Seafoam to the gas and top-off the tank with Ethanol-free 87 (if you can get it).

Are the caps off of the idle mixture screws? If so, check that they are close to 2 1/2 turns out - or a little more in cold weather.

[Lychee]

I think the petcock, filter, or fuel hose is partially blocked and on your last run, you simply ran the remaining fuel in the bowl dry. I bet if you try to start it again, after it turns enough to suck some gas into the bowls, it will then work for a little while and then die again. Jay's suggestion is a good one. If there is a partial blockage and you haven't tried to start it since the last time it died, there should not be much fuel in the bowl at all. It normally holds about 10 oz, according to the faq: http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_to_...he_float_bowls

The gas in the picture is really dirty. Use the amount for reference.
To answer your questions:
It should still start with bad valve clearances. It won't run that great, but it should start.
A carb cleaning will always be beneficial if the carb is suspect. They really need to be prestine in order to work well. The passages are very small and are clogged easily if the fuel is gummy or has stuff in it.
Don't worry about "other causes" yet. Always start with the basics - air, fuel, spark, and compresssion. Check all and which ever is faulty will point you in the right direction.

Good luck!

[alex.s]

insure the intake / snorkel and filter are unblocked.

and then clean out the carbs/fuel lines

[Lychee]

it's a pregen.

[ktp1598]

Carbs. Not being cleaned after sitting for THAT long will most definitely gum the carbs up. Mine sat for years then the PO had the carbs cleaned last winter, then stopped riding it (it's an '07 with only 280 miles on it). Guess what? They're gummed up a bit again. Fresh vacuum lines, full tank of gas with an additive like startron, new plugs and squeaky CLEAN carbs should do it. That's what I'm doing to mine when it gets here anyway.

[ACL 9000]

OK, I did a bunch of stuff! Sorry for letting this thread hang for so long, but I didn't want to post before I'd taken care of what I planned to, and I work at a noobish pace. Anyway, here's what happened:

I took the tank off and emptied it. There was some rust in the bucket when all was said and done. I'm going to put an inline filter on before the carb to prevent anything I didn't dump out from making its way into important small spaces.

I did not remove, drain, or in any way mess with the carbs. I know you guys all agree that I should give them a once-over, and I will soon, but for now I'm more eager just to have the bike buttoned up and running.

The spark plugs were Autolites and holy ****:



The new plugs are the correct NGKs.

I drained, flushed, and replaced the coolant. It didn't look bad, but it was easy to do while I had the plastics off. There's just some whatever-WalMart-had Prestone in there now.

I also adjusted the valves. There was another holy-**** moment when I went to stick the feeler gauge in and discovered that there simply was no clearance. Everything was as tight as it could be. I adjusted that out. Also I dropped the gauge into the engine three times, which wasn't amusing.

Tonight I fired it up for the first time since it died on me. Aside from the few moments it took to pull fuel from the tank it started up very quickly, and very happily. I rode it a small amount to warm it up and then I put it away because it's cold outside. Tomorrow I'm going to ride some more and make sure the cooling system is purged of all the air.

So that's where I stand right now.

I still want to clean the carbs, but I'm lazy and dislike pains in the ass, so I'm going to put that off for a few days anyway.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by ACL 9000

OK, I did a bunch of stuff!.................So that's where I stand right now................

[ktp1598]

Oooh, nasty plug!

[Floki]

How hard is the valve clearance? I'm coming up on my 15,000 mile service

[ACL 9000]

It seemed easy enough.

I bought the Kawasaki feeler gauges and the adjustment tool. I don't know how much more difficult it would have been without them.

I had to buy a new socket for the lock nuts because my torque wrench didn't want to fit in the smallish space without it. I just got the narrowest Craftsman deep socket I could find in the correct size (9mm?), and it worked out.

Tie a string around the feeler just in case. I often caught it on something when withdrawing it from the engine and ended up dropping it a lot, and then fashioning hilarious tools from whatever junk I had lying around in order to retrieve it.

The lack of precision in the whole adjustment procedure freaked me out, but it seems like being very exact isn't the goal. I had them pretty loose before I torqued the lock nuts down, and lost maybe .02mm of clearance when I tightened everything. The narrower feelers still slid in fine afterward.

It's surprisingly time-consuming if you've never done it before. It doesn't involve anything unusual and there aren't a lot of steps, but it eats up most of the day somehow.

[agentbad]

Wow those plugs were awful no wonder you had trouble. If it's running well now you probably are good with the carbs thought a cleaning wouldn't hurt. Where did you buy the feeler gauges and the adjustment tool? Any good guides on valves adjustment I do well with pictures.

[notsofast]

Great job, im working up the courage to do this myself. I am a bit nervous of my landlords coming around and showing me the rental agreement though. Apparently I cant work on my bike in a car port...

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by ACL 9000

I also adjusted the valves. There was another holy-**** moment when I went to stick the feeler gauge in and discovered that there simply was no clearance. Everything was as tight as it could be. I adjusted that out. Also I dropped the gauge into the engine three times, which wasn't amusing.

You are sure you had the cams in the proper position - right? If not, there will be problems...

Tie a long string to the feeler gauge so you can easily retrieve it if it gets away from you.

[ACL 9000]

Originally Posted by agentbad

Where did you buy the feeler gauges and the adjustment tool?

I got these feelers and this tool. Both of those links go to Partzilla, but you should shop around. PZ's prices are nothing to write home about and their customer service is pretty limp. The important numbers are right there in the photos, though; 57001-1553 and 57001-1220. Google or Bing for those numbers and a lot of retailers should show up.

Any good guides on valves adjustment I do well with pictures.

For a guide I pretty much relied solely on the wiki entry at ninja250.org. "What is the adjustment procedure?" and "Hints & Tips: Valve Adjustment" in particular.

Originally Posted by jkv45

You are sure you had the cams in the proper position - right? If not, there will be problems...

Pretty sure. I followed the guide I linked above, and did it the "easy" way rather than the official method. The cam lobes were pointed up and away from the tappets when I made the adjustments, and again when I verified that everything was still in-spec before putting the cover back on.

In the event that I did it incorrectly, what sort of signs should I be on the lookout for?

[ACL 9000]

Rather than create a new thread I'll just continue to use this one to post about what I'm doing to my bike...

Stuff I've done:

• Installed the leads for a battery tender. Very simple.
• Added a USB socket powered by the rear accessory hookup. Couldn't readily find connectors to fit the stock female terminals, so I cut those off and crimped on some new ones from Radio Shack.
• Added the wireless transmitter for my helmet light. For this I used the included tap connectors, which made me feel dirty, but I'm not going to get fancy with it.
• Removed rear fender and replaced with Saylor fiberglass insert, moved turn signals to unused tail pods. Of that I made a silly video: https://www.dropbox.com/s/gxr9yesfnpf9f7l/BLINKY.MOV featuring a blurry Mazdaspeed6 cameo.

Up next is installing grip heaters into the forward accessory leads, flush-mount front turn signals, possibly turning the forward side reflectors into lights, and getting a scarf or something so I can still ride when it's not snowy or icy.

I'm wondering what people think of the taillights right now. I can leave them as they are, which seems to work fine, or I can use the low-watt filament as well and have them dimly lit all the time. Or I can put amber lenses over the signal lights.

If I choose to go with amber blinkers, I'm going to need to find some paint. The only aftermarket lenses I could find were clear. I bought them, but now I need to color them. I did some searching and found some Civic and Neon forums where dudes were using Krylon Stained Glass paint, and I also saw there's 40-dollar "JDM" (har-har) lens paint on eBay and Amazon. I want to stay away from Testors and Tamiya paints, simply because I build models and I know how fragile those finishes can be. I need something road-worthy. Any suggestions?

[agentbad]

Hahaha nice video. Just to let you know the feeler gauges is cheap like 10 bucks if you get the bikemaster one off bike bandit for like 9 bucks. Still have to fork over the money for the adjustment tool though.

As for the lights you can spray the filament itself with krylon so it will flash yellow and keep the back blinker inserts clear.

Scroll down a ways to see the painted bulbs.
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/I_want_...s_on_the_front

[ACL 9000]

Originally Posted by agentbad

Just to let you know the feeler gauges is cheap like 10 bucks if you get the bikemaster one off bike bandit for like 9 bucks.

That's a good plan. I only went with the gauges I got because I didn't want to screw something up by trying to be clever, so everything I got had a Kawasaki sticker on it somewhere, just to eliminate that variable.

As for the lights you can spray the filament itself with krylon so it will flash yellow and keep the back blinker inserts clear.

I actually have amber bulbs in the pods already, so I could just swap to the clear lenses and still have amber blinkers. I just don't really like the way the clear plastics look as much. That same Krylon paint probably will work fine on the lenses, though, so I'll check that out.

I installed those cheap-o Tusk grip heaters recently. All the installation guides I checked said to do weird stuff like cut the stock grips off, but in my brief search for aftermarket grips I didn't see anything I liked.

I certainly did not remove the bar ends, because that seemed impossible. Instead, I just rolled the grips up to install the heaters, and then unrolled them. Done. It took a little effort, but not so much that I would recommend cutting them.

The resistor for the "low" setting on the heaters gets so ridiculously hot, and will start to melt itself pretty much instantly. I zip-tied it to a fork tube because I figured a big metal cylinder would make an effective heat sink. I'm not going to use that setting for now anyway, and I'll probably replace the resistor with a flasher or something.

At least now my hands will be a little warmer.

[EsrTek]

On mine I took DaBlue's advice and used RC paint to tint the clear lenses and black them out.
In particular I used RC294 Window tint, gotten from local hobby store for >$5.
3 coats was a smoked looked, 6+ made them so dark it was hard to see lights blink.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by EsrTek

On mine I took DaBlue's advice and used RC paint to tint the clear lenses and black them out.
In particular I used RC294 Window tint, gotten from local hobby store for >$5.
3 coats was a smoked looked, 6+ made them so dark it was hard to see lights blink.

Testors also makes a spray tint that's pretty easy to find at hobby or craft stores.

It's made to be very runny, so it's best to spray very light coats with dry time in between or it will just puddle at the bottom. 3 coats is about right for that too.

[EsrTek]

Yep that's the brand of the spray I used.. nice pic to show perfectly what it will look like.

[ACL 9000]

Here's a new one:

The bike has been sitting unused for about a week. I didn't plug in the battery tender, and today when I turned the key nothing lit up.

I assume one of the electrical bits I installed earlier must somehow be draining it slowly. I checked the grip heater switch and it's been off. For now, I've disconnected the switch, so if it does constantly draw it won't be able to continue for now. I guess I'll follow the guide for making the accessory leads switched, and see if that resolves the problem.

I plugged in the battery tender and it shows that it has power, but the "charging" light hasn't come on.

I hooked up one of those Die Hard charger/starters and flipped its switch to "start," thinking that I'd be able to start the bike regardless of battery charge, but still nothing came on.

Here are my questions:

1. Is it possible for grip heaters which are turned off, or a USB socket with no devices connected to drain the battery?
2. Can a months-old battery be killed permanently this way, and never hold a charge again?
3. Shouldn't I be able to start the bike anyway, with the charger/starter?

I'm just trying to figure out what caused the battery to completely discharge so I can take steps to prevent that in the future, but I'm not sure how to go about that.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by ACL 9000

..........Here are my questions:

1. Is it possible for grip heaters which are turned off, or a USB socket with no devices connected to drain the battery?
2. Can a months-old battery be killed permanently this way, and never hold a charge again?
3. Shouldn't I be able to start the bike anyway, with the charger/starter?

I'm just trying to figure out what caused the battery to completely discharge so I can take steps to prevent that in the future, but I'm not sure how to go about that.

1) No.

2) Once they fully discharge, it is hard to make them live again.

3) Avoid using anything other than a 12 v battery, the internal electronics could be damaged.

I would take the battery back to the Advance Auto store and explain what happened, you may walk out with a new battery.

To learn more about our batteries:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Battery_stuff

[jkv45]

If a battery is completely discharged it will take more than trickle-charging to bring it back to life - and that may not always work either.

It requires a much larger amp push than what you would typically charge it at, but only for a limited amount of time or it will damage the battery.

Once it's accepting a normal charge it can take many hours of charging (10-20) to get it back up to normal voltage.

Basically -

A 12V battery reads 12.6-7V when fully charged.

12.2V is a 50% charge.

12.0V is a 25% charge.

[ACL 9000]

Originally Posted by Motofool

1) No.
2) Once they fully discharge, it is hard to make them live again.
3) Avoid using anything other than a 12 v battery, the internal electronics could be damaged.

Originally Posted by jkv45

If a battery is completely discharged it will take more than trickle-charging to bring it back to life - and that may not always work either.

...

A 12V battery reads 12.6-7V when fully charged.

12.2V is a 50% charge.

12.0V is a 25% charge.

Thank you guys, that was very informative.

I was able to charge the battery somehow, and it was capable of starting the bike, so I guess I lucked out. Going to keep it hooked up to the tender for now.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by ACL 9000

Thank you guys, that was very informative.

I was able to charge the battery somehow, and it was capable of starting the bike, so I guess I lucked out. Going to keep it hooked up to the tender for now.

Good to hear - you should be fine.

My son built an electric vehicle for an competition and we found out that the top teams were completely discharging and charging their lead-acid batteries many times in order to allow them to hold more than standard voltage.

They had some batteries that had been cycled heavily dozens of times without showing any signs of damage, and in fact were their best ones.

[Alex]

Interesting! I wouldn't have expected that to help; I had assumed that every charge/discharge cycle was taking off a small bit of performance each time.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Alex

Interesting! I wouldn't have expected that to help; I had assumed that every charge/discharge cycle was taking off a small bit of performance each time.

That's what we thought too...