This never gets old. Braking with lean angle.

[Gurk]

This is a dead horse for me. I don't remember how many times I was irritated when I read posts saying "dude if you don't make the corner just lean moar and open throttle brodudebrooo". Yeah buddy. Below is an awesome post by Nick Ienatsch. Do yourself a favor and read it. Like I said, old news for many of us. But there are new riders in here everyday.

http://yamahafz1oa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122811

"If you have to stop in a corner, one of two things will happen. One, you will stand the bike up and ride it off the shoulder and into whatever is over there. Or two, you will lay the bike down and slide off the shoulder of the road. Braking is done before, or after a corner. The best thing to do before taking a corner is to grind the thought "I'm going to turn this corner" into your mind."

Hiya FZ1 lovers.
I’ve stewed for two days about the above quote taken from another FZ1OA thread...and finally decided to launch this thread. In past years I would have just rolled my eyes and muttered, “Whatever”…but not anymore. I want to tell you that there are measureable, explainable, repeatable, do-able reasons that make great riders great. And brake usage is at the very tippity-top of these reasons. It’ll save your life, it’ll make you a champion. It will save and grow our sport.
I’ll ask this one favor: Would you open your mind to what I’m about to write, then go out and mess around with it?
To begin: Realize that great motorcycle riding is more subtle in its inputs than most of us imagine. I bet you are moving your hand too quickly with initial throttle and brakes. Moving your right foot too quickly with initial rear brake. The difference between a lap record and a highside is minute, almost-immeasureable differences in throttle and lean angle. The difference between hitting the Camaro in your lane and missing it by a foot is the little things a rider can do with speed control at lean angle. Brakes at lean angle. Brakes in a corner.
Yes, a rider can brake in a corner. Yes. For sure. Guaranteed. I promise. Happens all the time. I do it on every ride, track or street. Yes, a rider can stop in a corner. In fact, any student who rides with the Yamaha Champions Riding School will tell you it’s possible. Complete stop, mid-corner…no drama. Newbies and experts alike.
There are some interesting processes to this sport, mostly revolving around racing. But as I thought about this thread, putting numbers on each thought made more sense because explaining these concepts relies on busting some myths and refining your inputs. Some things must be ingrained…like #1 below.

1)You never, ever, never stab at the brakes. Understand a tire’s grip this way: Front grip is divided between lean angle points and brake points, rear grip is lean angle points and acceleration points, lean angle points and brake points. Realize that the tire will take a great load, but it won’t take a sudden load…and so you practice this smooth loading at every moment in/on every vehicle. If you stab the brakes (um...or throttle...) in your pickup, you berate yourself because you know that the stab, at lean angle on your motorcycle (and bicycle, btw), will be a crash.

2)Let’s examine tire grip. If you’re leaned over at 95% (95 points in my book Sport Riding Techniques and fastersafer.com) of the tires’ available grip, you still have 5% of that grip available for braking (or accelerating). But maybe you only have 3%!!! You find out because you always add braking “points” in a smooth, linear manner. As the front tire reaches its limit, it will squirm and warn you…if that limit is reached in a linear manner.
It’s the grabbing of 30 points that hurts anyone leaned over more than 70 points. If you ride slowly with no lean angle, you will begin to believe that aggressiveness and grabbing the front brake lever is okay…and it is…until you carry more lean angle (or it’s raining, or you’re on a dirt road or your tire’s cold…pick your excuse). Do you have a new rider in your life? Get them thinking of never, ever, never grabbing the brakes. Throttle too…

3)If you STAB the front brake at lean angle, one of two things will happen. If the grip is good, the fork will collapse and the bike will stand up and run wide. If the grip is not-so-good, the front tire will lock and slide. The italicized advice at the beginning was written by a rider who aggressively goes after the front brake lever. His bike always stands up or lowsides. He’s inputting brake force too aggressively, too quickly...he isn't smoothly loading the fork springs or loading the tire. He may not believe this, but the tire will handle the load he wants, but the load must be fed-in more smoothly…and his experience leads to written advice that will hurt/kill other riders. “Never touch the brakes at lean angle?” Wrong. “Never grab the brakes at lean angle?” Right!
But what about the racers on TV who lose the front in the braking zone? Pay attention to when they lose grip. If it’s immediately, it’s because they stabbed the brake at lean angle. If it’s late in the braking zone, it’s because they finally exceeded 100 points of grip deep in the braking zone…if you’re adding lean angle, you’ve got to be “trailing off” the brakes as the tire nears its limit.

4) Radius equals MPH. Realize that speed affects the bike’s radius at a given lean angle. If the corner is tighter than expected, continue to bring your speed down. What’s the best way to bring your speed down? Roll off the throttle and hope you slow down? Or roll off the throttle and squeeze on a little brake? Please don’t answer off the top of your head…answer after you’ve experimented in the real world.
Do this: Ride in a circle in a parking lot at a given lean angle. That’s your radius. Run a circle or two and then slowly sneak on more throttle at the same lean angle and watch what your radius does. Now ride in the circle again, and roll off the throttle…at the same lean angle. You are learning Radius equals MPH. You are learning what throttle and off-throttle does to your radius through steering geometry changes and speed changes. You are learning something on your own, rather than asking for advice on subjects that affect your health and life. (You will also learn why I get so upset when new riders are told to push on the inside bar and pick up the throttle if they get in the corner too fast. Exactly the opposite of what the best riders do. But don’t believe me…try it.)
Let me rant for a moment: Almost every bit of riding advice works when the pace is low and the grip is high. It’s when the corner tightens or the sleet falls or the lap record is within reach…then everything counts.
“Get all your braking done before the turn,” is good riding advice. But what if you don’t? What if the corner goes the other way and is tighter and there’s gravel? It’s then that you don’t need advice, you need riding technique. Theory goes out the window and if you don’t perform the exact action, you will be lying in the dirt, or worse. Know that these techniques are not only understandable, but do-able by you. Yes you! I’m motivated to motivate you due to what I’ve seen working at Freddie’s school and now the Champ school…
I’m telling you this: If you can smoothly, gently pick-up your front brake lever and load the tire, you can brake at any lean angle on and FZ1. Why? Because our footpegs drag before our tires lose grip when things are warm and dry. It might be only 3 points, but missing the bus bumper by a foot is still missing the bumper! If it’s raining, you simply take these same actions and reduce them…you can still mix lean angle and brake pressure, but with considerably less of each. Rainy and cold? Lower still, but still combine-able.

5)So you’re into a right-hand corner and you must stop your bike for whatever reason. You close the throttle and sneak on the brakes lightly, balancing lean angle points against brake points. As you slow down, your radius continues to tighten. You don’t want to run off the inside of the corner, so you take away lean angle. What can you do with the brakes when you take away lean angle? Yes! Squeeze more. Stay with it and you will stop your bike mid-corner completely upright. No drama. But don’t just believe me…go prove it to yourself.

6)Let’s examine the final sentence in the italicized quote. The best thing to do before taking a corner is to grind the thought "I'm going to turn this corner" into your mind.
No, that’s not the best thing. It’s not the worst thing and I’m all for positive thinking, but we all need to see the difference between riding advice and riding techniques. This advice works until you enter a corner truly beyond your mental, physical or mechanical limits. I would change this to: The best thing to do before taking a corner is to scan with your eyes, use your brakes until you’re happy with your speed and direction, sneak open your throttle to maintain your chosen speed and radius, don’t accelerate until you can see your exit and can take away lean angle.
7)Do you think I’m being over-dramatic by claiming this will save our sport? Are we crashing because we’re going too slowly in the corners or too fast? Yes, too fast. What component reduces speed? Brakes. What component calms your brain? Brakes. What component, when massaged skillfully, helps the bike turn? Brakes. If riders are being told that they can’t use the brakes at lean angle, you begin to see the reason for my drama level. When I have a new rider in my life, my third priority is to have them, “Turn into the corner with the brake-light on.”

I’ve said it before: This is the only bike forum I’m a member of. I like it, I like the peeps, I like the info, I love the bike. Could we begin to change the information we pass along regarding brakes and lean angle? Could we control our sport by actually controlling our motorcycles? If we don’t control our sport, someone else will try. Closed throttle, no brakes is “out of the controls”. Get out there and master the brakes.
Thanks, I feel better.

Nick Ienatsch
Yamaha Champions Riding School
Fastersafer.com

[Skullz]

I have book marked these videos and watch them every so often, i brake mid corner all the time to adjust my speed accordingly without issue. keeping light pressure on the pads is key until you no longer feel the need to use them and then release the lever.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[subxero]

Rojo's last vid from Laguna Seca

Skip to 1:50, it sticks!

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...29&postcount=1

Link to original page on YouTube.

[adouglas]

I think the problem with this topic is that it instantly devolves into a black-and-white, absolutist issue.

Keith Code encourages us to do our braking before tipping in... but read carefully. Ne has not said "NEVER, EVER TOUCH THE BRAKES WITH THE BIKE LEANED OVER." Disciples of the Church of TOTW tend to miss that fact, I believe because so much attention is paid to things like throttle control, SRs and Keith's obsession with making lists (e.g. "there are eleven things that hinge on this...."). In fact, the words "trail braking" never appear in TOTW 2 at all.

Similarly, Ienatsch advocates trail braking, but has never said "ALWAYS TRAIL BRAKE." Indeed, in the article above he says "'Get all your braking done before the turn,' is good riding advice." Yet people seem to think he's all about trail braking, all the time.

To me the issue is one of maintaining a margin of safety. If you trail brake to the limit, a tiny mistake (squeezing the lever just a bit too hard, for example) can cause a crash. It happens to the best riders in the world all the time. Tucking the front doesn't happen for no reason. If the likes of Marquez, Rossi and Lorenzo can overdo it so easily, what makes any of us think we won't?

If you take trail braking completely out of the picture, you're throwing away a useful tool. I think that's Ienatsch's point. But it's just that... one tool, just as proper throttle technique is a tool. And like the use of any tool, there are risks that go along with the benefits. The risk is that you increase the likelihood of a rider-induced crash.

Unquestionably the most powerful control on a motorcycle is the brake lever. Because of this, it's the easiest one to abuse. That, I think, is Code's point. In a tight spot, it can get you in big trouble fast. Do you really have the presence of mind to keep those last few points of traction firmly in hand when trying to make the corner?

Bottom line IMHO is that it's not all-or-nothing and never has been despite all the Intwebz debate. There's no harm in trail braking if you can do it right. There's no harm in staying away from it if you aren't capable of doing it properly.

[Sykes92]

I have never touched the front brake in a turn. Not since my first few days of riding. I crashed at real slow speeds from applying the front brake. So to this day the only break I have ever touched in a turn or corner was my rear break. And had also stuck to the "if you don't think you'll make, just lean and throttle"

So this thread has given me some good insight! It's likely the two incidents I had were due to applying too much pressure too fast.

[Whiskey]

I can do it but try to avoid it as much as possible, braking in the turn (rather than trailbraking into it or adjusting speed on the throttle beforehand) generally means I've fu*ked up on my observation/position/speed and need to re-evaluate the situation.

A slight drag of the rear can stabilise the bike, but finesse is the key, certainly if you're going for the front brakes.

[accumack]

I think the reason everyone says you can't brake in a turn is because too many people don't have feel for it. It's usually a panic move causing a hard squeeze of the brake and loss of traction. If you need a small correction in speed it works well. If you really entered a turn way too fast you're going to have problems. It is best to practice so you know you can do it and learn your limits.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Gurk

..........Like I said, old news for many of us. But there are new riders in here everyday................

I advise against even mentioning trail braking or simultaneous leaning-breaking to those new riders.

Those have enough basics to work on during the first months of learning, being proper, safe and efficient braking the most important one, IMHO.

A pedantic observation about point 1 of the above article: rear contact patch can take initial maximum braking force because, being at its maximum loaded state before rear-front weight transfer happens, it will take a sudden load (which will need to be reduced as the transfer happens).

[antiant]

Originally Posted by Motofool

I advise against even mentioning trail braking or simultaneous leaning-breaking to those new riders.

Those have enough basics to work on during the first months of learning, being proper, safe and efficient braking the most important one, IMHO.

[Gurk]

Problem here @Motofool that people get themselves in situations where the only way out is braking in a turn. And having ZERO practice doing it is the reason they eat it the first time they try it in a panic. We keep saying it's an advanced technique. That's the main reason why people should start practicing it earlier....


@adouglas My criticism wasn't towards Keith Code. A rider of that caliber for sure can apply brakes in a turn and I'd call him a liar if he said he never does it. Why he doesn't teach it is beyond me. But I know he doesn't mean NEVER USE BRAKES IN A TURN. My criticism is towards certain forum members and people who dismiss brakes in a turn completely and say outrageous stuff like "just lean moar and add throttle". Sure, if you're going from 20 to 30mph maybe.. But try adding that lean and throttle more towards the limit and see where you end up!

Anyway..I just encourage everyone to read/listen to pros rather than nobody's on a forum. Don't take my word for it either. See what great riders do and practice that... Like he says in his post, that "advanced technique" will save someone's life on the public road someday.

[csmith12]

Apples and Oranges guys...

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/in...showtopic=4034

[Alex]

@Misti shared it with us as well right here.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by Gurk

Problem here @Motofool that people get themselves in situations where the only way out is braking in a turn. And having ZERO practice doing it is the reason they eat it the first time they try it in a panic. We keep saying it's an advanced technique. That's the main reason why people should start practicing it earlier....

I can somewhat agree with this, after all... "Braking in a Turn" is a MSF drill. But let's not confuse it with trailbraking. One is to set entry speed, one is an emergency skill. As a new rider which will put on your arse and which may save your life?

[Gurk]

I like how everyone's assuming just cause you're a new rider, you don't overcook (in relation to our own technical ability) a corner....

Yeah cause none of us ever did that in our first month right?

[rojoracing53]

You guys want to see an over cooked corner try hopping on a superbike with a roached 4rd gear on the backside. Nothing like scrubbing speed going into turn 9 at willow springs when suddenly your bike pops into neutral with no chance of getting it out. I mean I was already on the limit of traction going for a pass on the outside of Toye and suddenly it felt like someone rear ended me with a semi and kept pushing me wide. I can't say what I did exactly to keep it on course because it was all instinct but I'm sure whatever I did it was all very smooth and delicate. The bike did it once more going into turn 1 but I had no chance of keeping it on course and was forced to go strait off at near 100 mph and jump the 20-30' trench they have out there to keep bikes from crossing the course and re-entering into traffic. I'm not sure but I may be the only rider to successfully clear the trench, and if not I know I'm the only one to do it twice.

After my few near death experiences the team took my words of concern a bit more serious and tore apart the trans to find 4th destroyed on the downshift side.

[gleyfman]

It is an excellent article,
Some years ago right after my MSF course I was scared to death by "Do Not Brake in corners" thing and had some close encounters because of it.
On my own I did some experimenting and found out it is very much possible to brake, as long as you are careful.

Also now, I would probably think twice before riding aggressively any bike without ABS brakes.

[Gurk]

Originally Posted by gleyfman

It is an excellent article,
Some years ago right after my MSF course I was scared to death by "Do Not Brake in corners" thing and had some close encounters because of it.
On my own I did some experimenting and found out it is very much possible to brake, as long as you are careful.

Also now, I would probably think twice before riding aggressively any bike without ABS brakes.

Off topic : Holy sh!t we live close I'm in Saratoga.

[gleyfman]

Nice, see you around!

Originally Posted by Gurk

Off topic : Holy sh!t we live close I'm in Saratoga.

[Sykes92]

So I rode on twisties for the 2nd time yesterday. And they were more "aggressive" than the first time I rode twisties. This thread kept popping in my head. I was riding with Scorch, who is much more experienced rider than me. Some of the turns I was really hesitant to match his speed, mainly because I was 100% unfamiliar with the roads/corners.

I think trail-braking was good AND bad for me as a newbie. While the technique worked a few times and helped me through some corners, there was one corner that had a decreasing radius and when I went to try and slow down, my newbie mind went into panic mode because I was headed towards a steep hill. If I had kept going, I would have rode wide and possibly down that steep hill. So instead I had tried to use my brakes and had a violent fishtail towards a guard rail. I saved it. It all happened so quickly that Scorch was never out of my field of view. It was insane though, I literally kept thinking "this is it, this is where my bike is gonna be destroyed, I might have some nasty injuries in a few seconds too.."

Later on in the day, however, I used the technique successfully to glide through a few corners.
I definitely see where Motofool is coming from, this may be the wrong time in my riding to try this technique out. At least on the real streets. I've practiced emergency braking before, for extended periods of time. But I think I need to do it even more now, because I was stuck between a rock and hard place and panic mode set in. I've been very lucky that I have been able to save every fishtail/highside that's ever occurred to me. For some reason my body just has the natural reflexes to keep calm, hold the rear brake, and let the bike do its own thing. But that luck is bound to run out, so it's best I avoid getting into a situation like that again.

[Alex]

If you're having violent fishtails, you're using way too much rear brake. It's not helping you at this point.

[Sykes92]

The majority of the fishtailing was in my first month of riding. Yesterday was the first time since. But, I do know it was due to my panicking and putting too much pressure on the rear. I've been trying to be more efficient with using the rear. Like I said, I'll probably go back to emergency brake practice and try to beat the muscle memory into my right leg/foot. It's not an experience I want go through again . Definitely not a positive dose of adrenaline haha.

[gleyfman]

I am sorry, there are so many things wrong about this story I don't know where to start.
What you are doing is a recipe for disaster...
- If you ever been to any group rides before - the first rule - ride at your own pace! DO NOT TRY TO CATCH UP TO THE GUY IN FRONT.
- If this guy in front is much more experienced rider, he should have had you riding first, observe for some time and give you feedback.
After that may be switch and ride at relaxed pace to allow you to work on your technique, not your survival instincts!
- I would suggest to never ride with that guy again. Find a friendly group or better yet group with the lead who emphasizes teaching and training aspects for new riders.
Be safe out there. In order to get better you need experience and it does not come from crashes and injuries, but from patience and practice.

Originally Posted by Sykes92

So I rode on twisties for the 2nd time yesterday. And they were more "aggressive" than the first time I rode twisties. This thread kept popping in my head. I was riding with Scorch, who is much more experienced rider than me. Some of the turns I was really hesitant to match his speed, mainly because I was 100% unfamiliar with the roads/corners.

I think trail-braking was good AND bad for me as a newbie. While the technique worked a few times and helped me through some corners, there was one corner that had a decreasing radius and when I went to try and slow down, my newbie mind went into panic mode because I was headed towards a steep hill. If I had kept going, I would have rode wide and possibly down that steep hill. So instead I had tried to use my brakes and had a violent fishtail towards a guard rail. I saved it. It all happened so quickly that Scorch was never out of my field of view. It was insane though, I literally kept thinking "this is it, this is where my bike is gonna be destroyed, I might have some nasty injuries in a few seconds too.."

Later on in the day, however, I used the technique successfully to glide through a few corners.
I definitely see where Motofool is coming from, this may be the wrong time in my riding to try this technique out. At least on the real streets. I've practiced emergency braking before, for extended periods of time. But I think I need to do it even more now, because I was stuck between a rock and hard place and panic mode set in. I've been very lucky that I have been able to save every fishtail/highside that's ever occurred to me. For some reason my body just has the natural reflexes to keep calm, hold the rear brake, and let the bike do its own thing. But that luck is bound to run out, so it's best I avoid getting into a situation like that again.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Sykes92

...........
I definitely see where Motofool is coming from, this may be the wrong time in my riding to try this technique out. At least on the real streets. I've practiced emergency braking before, for extended periods of time. But I think I need to do it even more now, because I was stuck between a rock and hard place and panic mode set in. I've been very lucky that I have been able to save every fishtail/highside that's ever occurred to me.........

Yes, all the problem with new riders is the lack of extensive training about the most powerful of all the controls in any motorcycle.

Consider that the right hand of even a poorly trained rider is able to load the frontal contact patch with 0.7 G in less than a second during vertical emergency braking exercises.
That means that that patch can feel a sudden rearward horizontal force of 70% the total weight of the bike plus rider (around 350 lb !!!).
In that state, the rear contact patch will be feeling only a 30% of that force (around 150 lb).
That weight that gets transferred is a plumb or vertical force that gives equivalent braking capability to each contact patch.

Let's talk about horizontal forces that appear with circular movement (any corner or turn):
If the rider is accelerating along the turn as he should, a serious lean that makes metal parts drag on the road (around 45 degrees) will never load that frontal patch with lateral horizontal forces above 40% of the total weight (bike+rider) (around 200 lb), and it will take more than a second to achieve that starting leaning from vertical attitude.

As you see, while the bike is leaned and turning, any rider can overload (total horizontal force = rearward force + lateral force) that poor contact patch with anything more than a gentle hand squeeze.

That makes the frontal contact patch the weakest link while simultaneous braking and leaning and the frontal brake the one that requires more tact and fine application by the rider (exactly what the new rider lacks) and the less forgiving of all the skids-slides.
Even experienced riders will grab that frontal lever with brute force each time that their brains panic.

Whether or not panic reactions can be reduced with training is a never-ending debate.
The main benefit that I see in emergency braking practices (vertical and leaned) is getting used to the unfamiliar forces that the body of the rider feels, eliminating one more thing to get spooked about.
My best advice is avoiding situations that spook your brain (as it is at current time).
A feel of excessive speed/lack of space is the most powerful to alarm and to activate your survival reactions.

That feel can be educated with time, as is just your perception according to what you know and believe regarding riding a motorcycle.
That perception is normally way off the physical capability of your bike when you are new to this.
Experienced riders who dominate basic techniques, have a more accurate perception and can handle higher speeds without experiencing those natural reactions.

The rear contact patch can take a lot of braking load, but only at the beginning of the process, before the weight on the rear shifts forward and that tire and suspension become lighter.
The situation is exaggerated if you are going downhill.

Engine braking (downshifting + slow clutch out) is more recommendable in the case you faced, simply because it is pneumatic in nature and more flexible regarding application of braking load than your foot in panic.
That is what I mainly use for wet conditions and long downhill turns.

Fishtailing happens when excessive application of rear brake is able of locking the wheel, reducing friction and centripetal acceleration drastically, allowing the rear contact patch to describe a straight line rather than to follow the turn's trajectory.
This situation is bad, but it tends to correct itself and is a more forgiving error that the one explained above.

Both of the contact patches can take much more braking load when the bike is vertical than when it is leaned, reason for which the technique of going vertical before applying emergency brakes while turning is learned early in the MSF basic course.

Explained in a more simple way:
If all any of your contact patches can take laterally is 40% of the weight it supports before losing traction, all it can brake simultaneously is 40% of the weight it supports.
It takes a lot of tact to apply that brake with such precision: close to what great riders can, far from what a rider in panic could.

More reading:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=172628

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=114555

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?p=730748

Please, excuse me the long lecture.

[Sykes92]

Originally Posted by gleyfman

- I would suggest to never ride with that guy again. Find a friendly group or better yet group with the lead who emphasizes teaching and training aspects for new riders.
Be safe out there. In order to get better you need experience and it does not come from crashes and injuries, but from patience and practice.

Scorch is a very good rider, and was very helpful the majority of the ride. I would absolutely ride with him again. It's not really his fault I took the corner that hot.

As to @Motofool, once again great information for me to mull over

[gleyfman]

That is great, I may have gotten a wrong impression from your post.
In any case - ride at your own pace is the rule to follow.
On the street it is not normal to ride anywhere close to your limit. You should always have ~30% margin for error or a deer on the road!

Originally Posted by Sykes92

Scorch is a very good rider, and was very helpful the majority of the ride. I would absolutely ride with him again. It's not really his fault I took the corner that hot.

As to @Motofool, once again great information for me to mull over

[250rr]

Thank you, Gurk! I will practice this. I have been using very mild trail braking since I began riding, I just didn't know what I was doing. Still don't, but that's another thread.

Wow. For once my instincts weren't the wrong ones! (I have to watch my target fixation constantly).

Luckily for me my tendency is to be smooth. Good in some situations (like this), not good in some other motor-based activities I participate in. We all have our strengths and weaknesses, I suppose.

[Sargent]

This "rule" is news to me. I've never had a fear of, or problem with, braking in a lean or in a corner.

If you don't have the ability to safely slow and/or stop your bike, you should not be riding.

[gleyfman]

Ok, I think there are at least two good sources of this misconception and sadly one of them is MSF riding class - the one most beginners go through to get their license.
- The last exercise in this course - accelerate, turn into 130 degree corner, stop.
They will fail you if you slow down or brake while in the corner. Ask me how do I know .
Has been many years ago, but I remember it very clearly.
Second reason is Keith Code books and instructions.
Again it is misinterpretation, I am not saying his instructions are wrong, but they focus on same pattern - brake before corner! In the corner you would be keeping constant throttle and accelerating once you are getting out of the corner...
Put two together and you get your "Never brake while in the corner" rule...

Originally Posted by Sargent

This "rule" is news to me. I've never had a fear of, or problem with, braking in a lean or in a corner.

If you don't have the ability to safely slow and/or stop your bike, you should not be riding.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by gleyfman

Ok, I think there are at least two good sources of this misconception and sadly one of them is MSF riding class - the one most beginners go through to get their license.
- The last exercise in this course - accelerate, turn into 130 degree corner, stop.
They will fail you if you slow down or brake while in the corner. Ask me how do I know .
Has been many years ago, but I remember it very clearly.

This is not the case in KY, the only automatic fail(s) are; dropping the bike or being ejected from the course during the test. During that last exercise, if you don't have a smooth throttle roll, it's to the discretion of the MSF RiderCoach to deduct points or not.

[gleyfman]

Perhaps you got a really nice coach!
This exercise was giving you most negative points if you screw it up. So if you had even most negligible error on any other test, it will fail you...

Originally Posted by csmith12

This is not the case in KY, the only automatic fail(s) are; dropping the bike or being ejected from the course during the test. During that last exercise, if you don't have a smooth throttle roll, it's to the discretion of the MSF RiderCoach to deduct points or not.

[csmith12]

No, I AM the coach. I am a nice guy though. lol

[gleyfman]

That explains it!

Originally Posted by csmith12

No, I AM the coach.

[Motofool]

Please, read the full article here:
https://www.facebook.com/SurvivalSki...57496437616278

"A corner is what's termed a fixed hazard - what you see is what you get, and a corner won't change as we ride through it. Once we've seen it and assessed it for risk, it's simply a case of applying our skill and judgement to get round it.

But we don't ride the road in isolation, and the moment we introduce other people into the equation, the potential for OTHERS to what we didn't expect is introduced. The potential for a 'cluster****' goes up and our margins for error go down in equal proportion.

The trouble is with these kind of errors is that one moment everything's going swimmingly and we're swinging through the bends and the next we're off the road. If you think you're in full control of cornering, just ask: "what will happen if I run into the the next bend 5mph too hot, turn in five metres too early or run 10cm too wide?"

It's worth that many bike-only cornering accidents occur when the rider hits the brakes mid-corner when we think we're in trouble. When we think speed is the problem, slowing down is an extremely powerful instinct response but it's one we need to learn to control."

........... and the comments:
"Of course the time that things go wrong is not the time to do something new because you can only do what you have made habit through practice! This is a BIG problem for a lot of riders in that they don't spend much time practicing disaster scenario's. Changing the lean angle or applying the brakes in mid corner is dead easy to do so long as you have done it plenty of times when you haven't needed to. Thruppeny Bit-ing is something we would normally avoid like the plague, but if you do it on gentle and easy corners then that is just the sort of practice that is invaluable for when you need to do it for real. Being able to tighten a line in the middle of every corner no matter how fast you have gone in or how extreme the lean angle, is an essential skill that will eventually save your life."

[Sargent]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Please, read the full article here:
https://www.facebook.com/SurvivalSki...57496437616278

"A corner is what's termed a fixed hazard - what you see is what you get, and a corner won't change as we ride through it. Once we've seen it and assessed it for risk, it's simply a case of applying our skill and judgement to get round it.

But we don't ride the road in isolation, and the moment we introduce other people into the equation, the potential for OTHERS to what we didn't expect is introduced. The potential for a 'cluster****' goes up and our margins for error go down in equal proportion.

The trouble is with these kind of errors is that one moment everything's going swimmingly and we're swinging through the bends and the next we're off the road. If you think you're in full control of cornering, just ask: "what will happen if I run into the the next bend 5mph too hot, turn in five metres too early or run 10cm too wide?"

It's worth that many bike-only cornering accidents occur when the rider hits the brakes mid-corner when we think we're in trouble. When we think speed is the problem, slowing down is an extremely powerful instinct response but it's one we need to learn to control."

........... and the comments:
"Of course the time that things go wrong is not the time to do something new because you can only do what you have made habit through practice! This is a BIG problem for a lot of riders in that they don't spend much time practicing disaster scenario's. Changing the lean angle or applying the brakes in mid corner is dead easy to do so long as you have done it plenty of times when you haven't needed to. Thruppeny Bit-ing is something we would normally avoid like the plague, but if you do it on gentle and easy corners then that is just the sort of practice that is invaluable for when you need to do it for real. Being able to tighten a line in the middle of every corner no matter how fast you have gone in or how extreme the lean angle, is an essential skill that will eventually save your life."

Plan for the worst, hope for the best.