Finally Crashed...

[akima]

@n4mwd: thanks.

I try and lean with the bike and keep my spine straight. I've never seen myself doing it though, so I'm not 100% sure my body position is ok. One day I hope to get on the track and progress my skills there... and go really really fast

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by akima

..........To me, that looks like a massive amount of lean! ... near pannier scraping! I don't think I've been over that far. It's a great picture for illustrating your point. If he simply kept in alignment with the bike (not even hanging off it), would the same rider on the same bike in that same corner be pictured at a smaller angle of lean?

Yes, Akima, that looks like a massive amount of lean respect to a vertical line.
Note, however, that looking at the curved cross section, the outside edge of the road is super-elevated above the center-line.
The amount of lean respect to the road is not so massive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometr...ds#Cross_slope

In that type of curves, gravity helps provide some of the centripetal force needed to go around the curve; hence, there is less lateral force on the contact patches.

Think of the motorcycles speeding in all directions inside a spherical cage in a circus: they can be horizontal or inverted respect to the ground, but still keep close to zero lean angle respect to the surface of the cage.

If the rider simply kept in alignment with the bike, he would have been pictured at a greater angle of lean (respect to a line perpendicular to the road), while the bike would have been pictured at a smaller angle of lean.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Because the geometric relationship between your shoulders, arms and the bars forms a parallelogram*, the act of leaning with your hands on the bars will simultaneously countersteer the bike automatically. So that is why when you go around a corner, the correct way is to both lean and countersteer.

FAAAAAALLLLSSSEEEE!

Your arms don't stay stiff. The inside elbow bends down and slack, the outside elbow rests on the tank, also slack and bent. It is VERY possible to hang off the bike and not give input to the bars. In fact, that's the whole idea of bending your arms and keeping them relaxed; to not give unnecessary input to the bars. Your bars/shoulders/arms are NOT a 4-bar linkage system, they have more pivots and the ability to rotate; use them fully.

I know FL turns are extra hard and all () but, don't tell people that hanging off and giving input to the bars are dependent on each other. They're not connected in the sense that the BP leaves loose arms and unweighted hands in order to only apply the wanted inputs. That's all. They're not directly dependent on each other.

If you lean with your arms off the bars, you'll notice very small differences in the lean/direction of the bike (assuming you don't change the weighting bias in your hips/feet to compensate). This is why we use countersteering instead of body weighting to turn a bike.

[nickjpass]

Kiss the handlebars and relax while doing it Best results on track!!!

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Your arms don't stay stiff. The inside elbow bends down and slack, the outside elbow rests on the tank, also slack and bent. It is VERY possible to hang off the bike and not give input to the bars. In fact, that's the whole idea of bending your arms and keeping them relaxed; to not give unnecessary input to the bars. Your bars/shoulders/arms are NOT a 4-bar linkage system, they have more pivots and the ability to rotate; use them fully.

I know FL turns are extra hard and all () but, don't tell people that hanging off and giving input to the bars are dependent on each other. They're not connected in the sense that the BP leaves loose arms and unweighted hands in order to only apply the wanted inputs. That's all. They're not directly dependent on each other.

If you lean with your arms off the bars, you'll notice very small differences in the lean/direction of the bike (assuming you don't change the weighting bias in your hips/feet to compensate). This is why we use countersteering instead of body weighting to turn a bike.

You are comparing apples and oranges again. I was simply saying that to properly turn, you need both lean and countersteer. I was not trying to educate anybody on how to be a track star. Lean alone isn't really going to turn much at all and countersteering alone is not going to turn properly. The purpose of leaning is to change your CG and not to turn the bike.

The parallelogram example was to show that people who think they turn a bike by leaning alone are really countersteering without knowing it. You shouldn't have any problem finding the youtube video showing what happens when the bars are bolted rigid and the rider leans to turn.

[choneofakind]

Are you saying that a motorcycle doesn't need to lean to turn? Or are you saying that hanging off doesn't turn you? Since you're all uppity about doing things 'properly', try using the correct words to convey your thoughts.


And no, there's absolutely nothing wrong with not hanging off in a corner, there's nothing not 'proper' with that.



Counter steering alone works just fine for many street riders. Lets see your perfect cornering BP...

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Are you saying that a motorcycle doesn't need to lean to turn? Or are you saying that hanging off doesn't turn you? Since you're all uppity about doing things 'properly', try using the correct words to convey your thoughts.


And no, there's absolutely nothing wrong with not hanging off in a corner, there's nothing not 'proper' with that.



Counter steering alone works just fine for many street riders. Lets see your perfect cornering BP...

I'm saying the RIDER (not the bike) doesn't need to lean to turn, but does need to do so if he wants to do it properly. In the context of my post, when I talk about "leaning" I'm talking about the rider. You don't have to "Hang off" to lean properly. Its just that its the most common way to do it at the track and possibly the best posture for high speed turns.

But again, I'm not trying to educate anyone on how to be a track star - just how to turn a corner.

I'm also saying that hanging off or leaning doesn't turn you. There are numerous detailed explanations as to why that is so.

Countersteering alone will still turn the bike, but the upright posture will limit the speed of the turns before you start scraping pegs. If you are happy taking corners at car speed, you can probably ride the dragon without ever leaning into a corner. This is especially true if you have a heavy cruiser where leaning or hanging off isn't going to make that much of a difference.

[akima]

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I'm not trying to educate anyone on how to be a track star

Well that's a relief.

[nickjpass]

[alex.s]

hanging off is not "correct". hanging off is one way of doing something. if you need to hang off, you hang off. if you need to split two cars through a corner, you don't hang off. there have been PLENTY of times on the street i needed to be thin through a corner. what do you do if you're hanging off? get your head taken out? no. you counter lean like a squid and look weird becuase it was "incorrect", and yet it was exactly what needed to happen. in the situation, you do what is correct. balls deep into a corner? maybe hanging off is correct. maybe hooking is correct. maybe a pick up wide early and dropping it back down is correct. situations change. street is vastly more complicated situations than track. you cannot say that hanging off is correct every time on the street because it simply is not always the case.



arms however, should never be tight. use those back muscles

[akima]

Originally Posted by alex.s

arms however, should never be tight. use those back muscles

Do you do exercises to strengthen your core/back-muscles so you can more comfortably control the bike?

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by akima

Do you do exercises to strengthen your core/back-muscles so you can more comfortably control the bike?

sex is a great workout. other than that not specifically for my back. but i normally ride quite a lot. and riding is a good enough work out.

[alex.s]

though i have seen people do reverse situps... .like back ups or something

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

...................I know FL turns are extra hard and all () but,...........

If you lean with your arms off the bars, you'll notice very small differences in the lean/direction of the bike...........................

Focus on the direction of this bike, ............... only !!!

Link to original page on YouTube.

[choneofakind]

^^ She's moving relatively slowly. That's why the weight shift has more effect.

The effect of the body weight shifting is still tiny compared to the effect of countersteering.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

...........The effect of the body weight shifting is still tiny compared to the effect of countersteering.

I know, ......... just kidding !!!

The effect is higher for slower speeds and vice-verse.

....and yes, we have some hard turns here in FL !!!, .........where do you think we crash???

[choneofakind]

Traffic circles and entrance ramps.

[n4mwd]

The point being ---- You said that FL has no curves. The video proves otherwise.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

The point being ---- You said that FL has no curves. The video proves otherwise.

hahahaha. bravo sir. both you floridians. bravo.

[nickjpass]

[Jiggles]

How about this no hands twisty ride?

70mph and no bar inputs to turn

Link to original page on YouTube.

[choneofakind]

dude, that's not twisty...

[n4mwd]

I have to say I really loved the cup holder. I want one.

[n4mwd]

Here is a good explanation of countersteering and the myth of body steering.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[akima]

@n4mwd: they shot that scene at the beginning with the little girl like it was a horror story!

[deeno415]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Focus on the direction of this bike, ............... only !!!

Link to original page on YouTube.

So would you say she has great BP???

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

dude, that's not twisty...

Ur right, it's a fastie