2002 GSXR caliper mounted

[gantt]

OK so I rode around the neighborhood for a bit. Initial bite is OK. I used the pads that came with the caliper. I'm sure new pads would be amazing. Definitely has more braking power. Easier to lock up front tire. It seems to be building more heat than normal. I know the disc brakes with slightly touch all the time. But it feels like there is too much resistance. With the front tire in the air I can spin it but it stops sooner than it used to. Maybe my caliper is misaligned? Doesn't appear to be. Any thoughts or tips??

[Rassie]

Mount the caliper without the pads, make sure it is exactly in the middle of the caliper opening. I usually do this with the front end off the bike, not and option in this case, so I recommend you get the bike up high enough so you can look at it from below and above. Also check the alignment with a straight edge. The caliper must run 100% aligned with the rotor and 100% in the center otherwise it will produce the effect you are describing.

[gantt]

Thanks rassie. I'm going t take the other bike to work until I have time to double check everything. The rotor is definitely getting too hot. Thanks for the information. So far the caliper rocks!!!

[gantt]

Well I lost the keys to the 650 so I had to take the 250. I think the heat I felt was from how hard I was using the front brake yesterday. Still want to double check things but I think its OK. This thing feels good. Also show the weakness of the stock irc tire.

[bruce71198]

Just found this thread, good info.
Here is the setup I built for my track bike which I tested for the first time this weekend.
320mm rotor with a 2002 GSXR600 caliper. It worked well, the only thing that I want to do is bump up a millimeter or 2 in master cylinder bore diameter to fine tune the brake feel.
[IMG][/IMG]

[gantt]

^^^^bruce, I like how your caliper bracket is behind the fork mount. for me to do that I would have to thread the bracket. that's not an issue to do. after I trim down the current bracket and I'm still not happy i'll make another and thread it. gives that area a much cleaner look. People are so caught up in "making it faster" that they never look into the things that really count. it's not all about straight line speed. I much prefer a good turn over triple digits in a straight.

[ninja250r81]

Some more ideas

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Brembo-Fr...item51c13f42e6

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Brembo-CN...item51c01e82f6

Maybe can use for a dual rotor setup (300mm rotors).
Could mount the ER6 right caliper as an upgrade

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/KAWASAKI-...item3cd8166b3a

[Rassie]

I just finished mounting a 06 ZX6R radial mount caliper and radial master cylinder (as part of a ZX6R front end swap, to be posted later). The lever feels wooden and it takes quite a bit of pressure to stop the bike. Having said that I have only gone up the road once, so it may be that it is required to be "broken in" so to speak since I am using the stock front wheel and rotor.

I think the radial master cylinder may be overkill for the one caliper. Anyone here have experience with this sort of thing to advise on what to do. I will try the stock master cylinder (since I have it) next.

[Somchai]

Originally Posted by Rassie

I just finished mounting a 06 ZX6R radial mount caliper and radial master cylinder (as part of a ZX6R front end swap, to be posted later). The lever feels wooden and it takes quite a bit of pressure to stop the bike. Having said that I have only gone up the road once, so it may be that it is required to be "broken in" so to speak since I am using the stock front wheel and rotor.

I think the radial master cylinder may be overkill for the one caliper. Anyone here have experience with this sort of thing to advise on what to do. I will try the stock master cylinder (since I have it) next.

Please note, for a radial caliper the radial master is a must have

[Rassie]

Originally Posted by Somchai

Please note, for a radial caliper the radial master is a must have

Hows that? A radial caliper is just like any other caliper in design except the way that it is mounted. Radially mounted means it bolts up in a radial fashion meaning the same direction the wheel and rotor is traveling. Otherwise they are the same. The radial master means the same thing, the piston travels in the same direction, front to back as opposed to a regular master cylinder that travels from right to left. So the leverage is different, essentially with a radial master you have more leverage and control, meaning more accurate braking. Therefore you also measure the force they exert on the piston differently.

Having said that I have found out that I have a way to large master cylinder piston size for just the one caliper. You calculate 2 things. The amount of hydraulic leverage , Pi X Radius Squared, and also hydraulic ratio and mechanical to arrive at an overall ratio. See the article below. Interesting read it was, took me a few times to get it but now I am all set. Based on my calculations the stock master cylinder is closer to ideal, so I will try that first and if it does not work I will buy a Brembo adjustable.

http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/technical/Nov2012Tech.pdf

[Rassie]

So I figured out through some basic math that the stock master cylinder will work better than the radial master. Just taking into account the hydraulic pressure ratios.

ZX6R Master cylinder bore seems to be 18mm (based on what I could find online)
The ZX6R calipers pistons are 32mm.
Using the formula quoted above then.
3.1416 x 9 x 9 = 254.46
3.1416 x 16 x 16 = 804.25 x 8 pistons = 6434.
6434 / 254.46 = 25 to 1 ratio.

The 300 MS bore is 12.7mm
3.1416 x 6.35 x 6.35 = 126.68
3.1416 x 16 x 16 = 804.25 x 4 pistons (using single caliper) = 3217.
3217 / 126.68 = 25.39 to 1.

So 25 to 1 is about the right number for this application. I have to factor in lever travel and such but I think it is close enough to try it without further math.

[subxero]

Originally Posted by ninja250r81

Some more ideas

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Brembo-Fr...item51c13f42e6

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Brembo-CN...item51c01e82f6

Maybe can use for a dual rotor setup (300mm rotors).
Could mount the ER6 right caliper as an upgrade

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/KAWASAKI-...item3cd8166b3a

I have the same set up with the 4pot brembo and a 320mm rotor and I did it all including the new rotor and new pads for under $300

Originally Posted by Rassie

So I figured out through some basic math that the stock master cylinder will work better than the radial master. Just taking into account the hydraulic pressure ratios.

ZX6R Master cylinder bore seems to be 18mm (based on what I could find online)
.....

don't even need to do math to tell you that 18mm MC is way to large for a single caliper even if it is radial.

15 is probably where you want to be maybe even the stock 13.

There are a few threads around about caliper swaps, don't be afraid to check out the ones in the new gen section as the brakes are the same.

I have a brembo axial 4 pot on my bike and the stock 13 was not working well at all. I went to the adjustable brembo RC15 or whatever it is called and it is great for my set up

Other members who are using Tokico axial 4 pot calipers on stock rotors seem to have no problem with the stock MC.

[sharky nrk]

The stock master does suck though, no doubt. But there are plenty of people that make me look really really stupid on the brakes with stock caliper/rotor/master so - its not a necessity

[Somchai]

Originally Posted by Rassie

Hows that?

I think the way I said it in my answer wasn't correct all the way, since english isn't my native language so sometimes I'm not using the right word and I hope you could forgive me for that.
I'd better said 'you should better use' or in a way like that.

But please let me remind you about another thing (and I hope to find the right words for that), since the front fork of the Ninjette could become the weakest point of the system at all when you are using a strong brake(-system) made for a SS.
Let me try to explain this: a SS normally has a front fork with 50mm diameter and also it is USD, so the triples are tight at the strong 50mm outside of the fork and the inner tube is a real short part of the whole fork only, also this while braking is ?diving? and so it becomes shorter at least - so nothing dangerous and not to mention that the triples are made from aluminum.
Now the Ninjette: she got a 37mm front fork (the lowest level) where the triples are tight to the much longer inner tube which means at the weaker part of the whole fork. With heavy braking this could mean that the tube itself can bend what must not and normally will not result in breaking, but at least that's not good and could be dangerous.
So when you mount bigger rotors and/or calipers from a SS, better don't exaggerate.
By the way, I'm using a Brembo caliper and at least I think that only this is already more then enough for this little bike.

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by Somchai

I think the way I said it in my answer wasn't correct all the way, since english isn't my native language so sometimes I'm not using the right word and I hope you could forgive me for that.
I'd better said 'you should better use' or in a way like that.

But please let me remind you about another thing (and I hope to find the right words for that), since the front fork of the Ninjette could become the weakest point of the system at all when you are using a strong brake(-system) made for a SS.
Let me try to explain this: a SS normally has a front fork with 50mm diameter and also it is USD, so the triples are tight at the strong 50mm outside of the fork and the inner tube is a real short part of the whole fork only, also this while braking is ?diving? and so it becomes shorter at least - so nothing dangerous and not to mention that the triples are made from aluminum.
Now the Ninjette: she got a 37mm front fork (the lowest level) where the triples are tight to the much longer inner tube which means at the weaker part of the whole fork. With heavy braking this could mean that the tube itself can bend what must not and normally will not result in breaking, but at least that's not good and could be dangerous.
So when you mount bigger rotors and/or calipers from a SS, better don't exaggerate.
By the way, I'm using a Brembo caliper and at least I think that only this is already more then enough for this little bike.

I've seen it happen on my friend's 250 when we had to brake hard while speeding because of bumps and holes on the pavement...
he got into a quite large hole while still heavy on the brakes and left fork got bent by a bit... I got lucky, no damage but instead of using his 320mm rotor+brembo 4-pot+ huge master, I am only using yamaha R1 04 brembo master(radial) and 4-pot sumitomo caliper, stock rotor...bites quite a lot but just not enough to damage anything...

this keeps making me wonder what can be done to improve stiffness down there... I was thinking of some kind of supermoto clamp stuff but there is just not enough room there... I tried fitting a second front fender holder (the metal pieces that hugs the tire in front of the tubes but it would take a lot of work and bending at other points and it didn't look strong enough again...

any ideas ?? because I believe it is a key thing in order for that mod to be of result under any condition without need to alter the whole front system...there must be some way...

[Somchai]

Originally Posted by micoulisninja

I've seen it happen on my friend's 250 when we had to brake hard while speeding because of bumps and holes on the pavement...
he got into a quite large hole while still heavy on the brakes and left fork got bent by a bit... I got lucky, no damage but instead of using his 320mm rotor+brembo 4-pot+ huge master, I am only using yamaha R1 04 brembo master(radial) and 4-pot sumitomo caliper, stock rotor...bites quite a lot but just not enough to damage anything...

this keeps making me wonder what can be done to improve stiffness down there... I was thinking of some kind of supermoto clamp stuff but there is just not enough room there... I tried fitting a second front fender holder (the metal pieces that hugs the tire in front of the tubes but it would take a lot of work and bending at other points and it didn't look strong enough again...

any ideas ?? because I believe it is a key thing in order for that mod to be of result under any condition without need to alter the whole front system...there must be some way...

Hey Nick,

nice to read from you and I hope your well also you're having success with your project.

I'm sorry to have no clear answer to your question about the fork, the only tipp i'd have is to watch here https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...&postcount=151
At least an usd would be the best way to go and this one for 250 Euro could be a solution http://empiremotoshop.com/products/186/0/Upside-Down/

Good luck and have a nice weekend

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by Somchai

Hey Nick,

nice to read from you and I hope your well also you're having success with your project.

I'm sorry to have no clear answer to your question about the fork, the only tipp i'd have is to watch here https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...&postcount=151
At least an usd would be the best way to go and this one for 250 Euro could be a solution http://empiremotoshop.com/products/186/0/Upside-Down/

Good luck and have a nice weekend

Hi Roland...
well, yeah I'm back and re-designing piece by piece a new whole exhaust system for my new project and so far I am just about to finish welding primary pipes down to link... I am now routing it like stock 300, left of the oil pan, then turn to the right... probably will be ready by end of next week so by 1st September I'll be taking apart the new engine for the modifications...

Anyway, nice and shiny and probably stiffer than stock those upside-down forks... but I have no feedback on anyone having them tested with aftermarket springs and stuff in the track and under extreme conditions to say HOW stiff and well performing they really are when braking hard say from 100mph down to 40 on the front wheel... or how they work while flicking the bike from one side to the other, then speeding and braking hard again while going through a few bumps on a road... have you tried it ?? I would take your opinion very seriously into account if your bike is already equiped with that...
As I have mentioned about a year ago, the european choice for upgrade is the good and tested whole front system from a 2-stroke aprilia rs125 that is almost "plug and play".... only problem is hard to find, a bit pricey as well and wheel travel is by a hair shorter...

However, what I was pointing out (and looking for any ideas) is what can be done to the STOCK front system to make it more rigid under heavy braking....

[choneofakind]

Roland, I see what you're saying about fork flex under braking. However, it's a moot point.

You can lock the front wheel and nose-wheelie with the stock brakes if you so desire. The limiting point of your braking power, regardless of the brake rotor, is the tires. The large aftermarket rotor and stock rotor provide the same ultimate brake force, the difference is in the effort required by the rider at the lever, the amount of modulation available to the rider, and the ability to dissipate heat during repeated heavy braking.

What I'm saying is, since the tires limit the ultimate braking power, a larger rotor and better caliper setup will make no more fork flex than the stock setup.

[Rassie]

I am way ahead of you guys. Take a look at my posted pictures. I do not think I will have any problems. As a matter of fact I rode the bike about 30 miles this morning and everything is working great even rear wheel lofting stoppies are no problem. The forks are day and night difference and the handling has much sharper but more secure turn in. I did notice my tires are at the end of their life though.

[choneofakind]

Nice! Is it an entire ZX6 front end? Swap bearings and install it, right? Any oddities to keep in mind while doing so?


That looks great. Did you check to make sure the geometry is the same? What spring rate? How do you like having adjustable damping?

[micoulisninja]

goodness Rassie !! how on earth did that fit so perfectly there ?? that looks really I want want want !!!

beautiful and simple !! give as some feedback... how does it handle? what about clipons, which did you use ? other mods ? what about length and wheel travel ? spring stiffness ?? I really envy that mod !!

which zx6 model is the donor ? and how on earth did you fit the stock fender so nicely ?

[Rassie]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Nice! Is it an entire ZX6 front end? Swap bearings and install it, right? Any oddities to keep in mind while doing so?

That looks great. Did you check to make sure the geometry is the same? What spring rate? How do you like having adjustable damping?

Nope had to make a section of the lower stem that could press into the the ZX6R lower triple clamp after I pressed the old one out, then weld it to the upper section of the 300/250 stem. Then it bolts right up with some new tapered bearings.

Geometry is the same except the wheelbase is now about 18mm shorter. Have not adjusted anything yet but backed out the preload all the way. Spring rates seem to be spot on for my weight (185lbs).

[Rassie]

You Ninjitsu will be pleased to know that I plan to produce a few of these as kits, strictly for racing purposes only off course.

All donor parts are from a 2006 ZX6R. So here are pictures of some of the parts that make the triple clamp work. You will see that the part that was welded onto the original stem was turned from a solid piece and there is overlap where the one pushes into the other so I had plenty of material to run a very deep penetrating weld around it. After welding it was checked to make sure it is true. The wheel required some spacers to be made and I used the original axle. The caliper mounts were too long for the stock rotor so I machined them down some. I had to make a jig to hold it while machining it. I had to space out the rotor as well with 5 spacers. On the left fork I just cut off the caliper mounts. Did not want the extra weight of 2 rotors and 2 calipers since the one produces more than enough stopping power.

I cut the ignition mount off of the top triple clamp and made my own mounting plate, waiting for carbon fiber to arrive so I can dress it up. I wanted to use as many stock parts as possible to keep cost down. However you can use an 07 to 09 top triple that has the ignition mount in the right place.

Initial riding impressions are that it is much more planted than stock. Very little diving under braking, very stable when leaned over. Tip in is faster. I did drop the forks 5mm earlier today so will ride it tomorrow to test it out. I have also not checked the settings on the forks yet. I can however tell that the spring rates feel perfect for my weight and my preference. Stiff, yet compliant. I am writing a blog entry that will show everything in detail and it will be posted on my website when finished.

[micoulisninja]

I can't express myself in words about that piece of work so....


about time you fit some decent kawasaki-ss-swingarm too...
I am already saving some pennies... I really want that on my bike !

[Somchai]

Wow @Rassie a big compliment from me, well done and great looking

[Rassie]

Originally Posted by micoulisninja

about time you fit some decent kawasaki-ss-swingarm too...
I am already saving some pennies... I really want that on my bike !

Interesting..I am duly intrigued..where can I get hold of said SS swingarm that is a bolt on for the 300?

I have a VFR750 swingarm and wheel sitting on my shelf but it is heavy as shyte..heavier than stock....

[micoulisninja]

yeah, I know what you mean... I have a honda bros 400 proarm and it just isn't the thing for the ninjette...
how about measuring a ZX6 swingarm ?? I've seen them fitted on Z-750 without any serious mods and I believe it's gonna be a matter of narrowing down the pivot area to get that in place.... or even better an RS 250 s/a....
options are Beet swingarm and some by empireshop but I guess you prefer messing around with other models' stock parts....

[willi777]

Awesome job Rassie on the front end swap- looks factory and bad-ass at the same time. Either the VFR400 or RVF400 swingarms, aka nc30 and nc35 i believe, swingarm pivots of 192mmm and 202mm, or thereabouts, but pivot diameter will not match... have a feeling that won't be an issue for you

[Rassie]

Maybe I will just add some bracing to my stock swingarm. Honestly the Ninjette swingarms have never caused me any issues in handling. The front ends are a different story. I will fit a GSXR750 rear shock in the coming weeks to fix the rear end. I will also see if I can find a ZX6R swingarm I can try or maybe a Versus one, they look bad ass.

[micoulisninja]

Originally Posted by Rassie

Maybe I will just add some bracing to my stock swingarm. Honestly the Ninjette swingarms have never caused me any issues in handling. The front ends are a different story. I will fit a GSXR750 rear shock in the coming weeks to fix the rear end. I will also see if I can find a ZX6R swingarm I can try or maybe a Versus one, they look bad ass.

brilliant idea !! but what about shock mounting on the side ??

[Rassie]

Good point, may require some serious frame mods..probably not worth it.

[old3]

SV Racing emailed me today, their version of the brake caliper mount is in stock, ready to ship. Email Blair for ordering info as I don't see it on his site yet.

[old3]

From Blair at SV Racing...

Thanks, have people Email me Directly at b.layton@svracingparts.com for now and I will set up a direct purchase link very soon on the website,

Enjoy the ride, and best regards,
Blair

[sharky nrk]

good to hear, although I figured this had fallen off lol

[old3]

First pic of the SVR brake bracket.

[Rassie]

Originally Posted by old3

First pic of the SVR brake bracket.

Can't see the picture.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by old3

First pic of the SVR brake bracket.

HTTP Status 500 - AUTHENTICATION_REQUIRED

type Status report

message AUTHENTICATION_REQUIRED

description The server encountered an internal error (AUTHENTICATION_REQUIRED) that prevented it from fulfilling this request.

Apache Tomcat/6.0.24

[old3]

Blair is sending more pics. I have one in hand today and I'll take a pic in a few minutes too. It is a great looking and very light piece. I'm tempted to remove my 320mm rotor to be able to use it.

[SV Racing Parts]

Should be in your inbox any moment now,

I hope you like the look of the Ninja Brake Caliper Adapter Brackets, if they are well received at all I can make them a permanent stocking part for all of our benefit,

Thanks and best regards,
Blair

[old3]

This is the one I got today!



Support a company who is willing to support us! The SV Racing Ninjette rear sets are awesome too. I'm trying to convince him to build us a fork brace next!

http://www.svracingparts.com/

I know it took a long time to come, but this is a nice piece and if the market is there, I'm betting we see more Ninjette stuff from Blair.

(fork brace--fork brace--fork brace--fork brace)