Power Commanders are now illegal

[APEmike]

BS! As of Jan 1st NOBODY in CA can buy a Power Commander. CARB says so. Retail, dealer, distributor, doesn't matter. You cant get one.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

So if you drive to Nevada and buy one, will they really find out you have it on?

[Bigballsofpaint]

Time to go Vegas. Because you know, what happens there stays there. Buying it that is, make sure to bring it home though.

[APEmike]

Yeah, but I dont get my awesome employee discount on them that way

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Originally Posted by APEmike

Yeah, but I dont get my awesome employee discount on them that way

Time to move I guess.

[Suki2003]

California and the EPA just know best I guess. because motorcycles kill polar bears.

[RacinNinja]

Got a resource for this info? Not finding much online. January as in already banned or January next year?

[APEmike]

This year, already banned.

[RacinNinja]

I still can't find a source....you have one?

Is Dynojet not shipping them to California any more? They've technically been illegal in California for years, to my knowledge.

[SLOWn60]

I'm no help with a source other than motorcycle magazines from past reading: all power Commander type equipment, aftermarket pipes, etc, etc are now banned or soon will be in CA. Stock or it's not legal for street.
Past experience has proven though; my memory is not to be relied on!

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by SLOWn60

I'm no help with a source other than motorcycle magazines from past reading: all power Commander type equipment, aftermarket pipes, etc, etc are now banned or soon will be in CA. Stock or it's not legal for street.
Past experience has proven though; my memory is not to be relied on!

The rules have been that way for a few years, since at least 2007, if not before then. It's just been loosely enforced. The tuners would still tune your bike but you'd sign a waver saying it was for "off-road use only" and send you on your way. They'd install a muffler for you and make you sign the same thing.

Your problem now!

Dynojet has been fined by CARB before....twice, I think.

Maybe now it's actually being enforced instead of overlooked.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by Suki2003

California and the EPA just know best I guess. because motorcycles kill polar bears.

The EPA is a joke, they don't have the power to go after the real culprits for pollution since the large corporations responsible for the majority of pollution have teams of attorneys and lobbyists to protect themselves. So the EPA just changes their focus and goes after the people who don't have the funding to protect themselves from their bullshit legislation so they can justify their existence

[MrAtom]

Carburetors ftw.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Originally Posted by MrAtom

Carburetors ftw.

Eh, I prefer fuel injection, but anything beats CV carbs.

[Abu_Mishary]

bummer.

[choneofakind]

Hasn't it always been illegal to tamper with the fueling of a road going vehicle?

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Hasn't it always been illegal to tamper with the fueling of a road going vehicle?

I'm pretty sure it has been since I've been alive. I know every jet kit or exhaust I've ever bought said for off road use only.

[MrAtom]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerRy

Eh, I prefer fuel injection, but anything beats CV carbs.

I've had a lot more trouble fixing an FI system than a CV carb system. And I wasn't even tuning the FI system. I'm sure my next experience with FI will be better but I'm happy with my carbs.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

I have a lot of experience with slide carbs, so I can adjust cv's with no problem, but they don't respond like efi does. There is always a delay as the slides move.

[Somchai]

From the website in Germany:
"Operation of the Power Commander is not permitted on public roads and will invalidate the approval of your vehicle!"
Question: "What about the factory warranty on my motorcycle?
This is not valid any more because it is a relevant change in the engine electronics. So you should not go with a built-in Power Commander and a warranty repair to your dealer."

[choneofakind]

^^ I just look at it this way. The guys at the shop/dealership are motorcycle guys too. I bet their bikes have fuel correction, whether carb'd or fuel injected. They expect those and the odds of you being reported are minimal.

But! Kiss that warranty goodbye if you ever have trouble with anything between the fuel tank and the exhaust pipe. That doesn't mean your warranty is completely void, just anything they can claim is affected by your power commander.

[toEleven]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

Dynojet has been fined by CARB before....twice, I think.

For example, this settlement circa 2007 posted on the CARB website
http://www.arb.ca.gov/enf/casesett/dynojet.htm

I don't live in CA, so none of this effects me - just like their unique gun laws - but a couple seconds of googling gives the impression that none of this is new. The 2013 Revzilla buying guide for Power Commander products also has the same disclaimer mentioned earlier in the thread: illegal for road use in CA. So...not exactly the latest news.

[SLOWn60]

There is a serious potential legal liability issue to consider if you live in CA (or anywhere for that matter) and do illegal mods to your bike: if you have an accident and your bike is examined; you may void your insurance. You could be paying for the rest of your life.

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by toEleven

For example, this settlement circa 2007 posted on the CARB website
http://www.arb.ca.gov/enf/casesett/dynojet.htm

I don't live in CA, so none of this effects me - just like their unique gun laws - but a couple seconds of googling gives the impression that none of this is new. The 2013 Revzilla buying guide for Power Commander products also has the same disclaimer mentioned earlier in the thread: illegal for road use in CA. So...not exactly the latest news.

Exactly. Previously, they were illegal. For at least a decade. I was hoping to find a source to corroborate the OP's statement that they would no longer ship to California or be able to be purchased in stores.

[Suki2003]

Originally Posted by Sirref

The EPA is a joke, they don't have the power to go after the real culprits for pollution since the large corporations responsible for the majority of pollution have teams of attorneys and lobbyists to protect themselves. So the EPA just changes their focus and goes after the people who don't have the funding to protect themselves from their bullshit legislation so they can justify their existence

Agreed Sir.

That's proof that once we give the government some power that they will keep taking more and more freedoms and liberties from us...

Similar to taxes.. always more taxes.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

Exactly. Previously, they were illegal. For at least a decade. I was hoping to find a source to corroborate the OP's statement that they would no longer ship to California or be able to be purchased in stores.

Dynojet had released CARB compliant power commanders for awhile, it looks like it's still being sold:

http://www.chaparral-racing.com/prod...1020-0398.aspx
http://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/d...or-harley-carb

If I remember correctly, the difference is that the software won't allow tweaks to the fuel map in the rpm ranges and throttle openings that are used within the standard testing method, but anything outside those ranges is allowed. So for high performance use (high rpms, large throttle openings), it's all still open for tweaking.

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by Alex

Dynojet had released CARB compliant power commanders for awhile, it looks like it's still being sold:

http://www.chaparral-racing.com/prod...1020-0398.aspx
http://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/d...or-harley-carb

If I remember correctly, the difference is that the software won't allow tweaks to the fuel map in the rpm ranges and throttle openings that are used within the standard testing method, but anything outside those ranges is allowed. So for high performance use (high rpms, large throttle openings), it's all still open for tweaking.

Oh wow, learned something, cool! There's hope for the goobermint in California yet!

We still can't corroborate the OP's claim of not available though?

[Whiskey]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

^^ I just look at it this way. The guys at the shop/dealership are motorcycle guys too. I bet their bikes have fuel correction, whether carb'd or fuel injected. They expect those and the odds of you being reported are minimal.

But! Kiss that warranty goodbye if you ever have trouble with anything between the fuel tank and the exhaust pipe. That doesn't mean your warranty is completely void, just anything they can claim is affected by your power commander.

So take it out before going to a main dealer for warranty work... and pop it back in when it's done.
All the fun toys come off bikes here when they're due an inspection, a few hours later they're back on

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Originally Posted by Alex

Dynojet had released CARB compliant power commanders for awhile, it looks like it's still being sold:

http://www.chaparral-racing.com/prod...1020-0398.aspx
http://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/d...or-harley-carb

If I remember correctly, the difference is that the software won't allow tweaks to the fuel map in the rpm ranges and throttle openings that are used within the standard testing method, but anything outside those ranges is allowed. So for high performance use (high rpms, large throttle openings), it's all still open for tweaking.

I can't imagine anybody wanting to use one of those. It would lead to a bike that pulled hard at non tested rpms and throttle openings, yet ran lean (hot and unsafe) while not pulling hard at other rpms and throttle openings. Also, when pulling out of a corner and gradually opening the throttle the responds wouldn't be very smooth.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerRy

I can't imagine anybody wanting to use one of those. It would lead to a bike that pulled hard at non tested rpms and throttle openings, yet ran lean (hot and unsafe) while not pulling hard at other rpms and throttle openings. Also, when pulling out of a corner and gradually opening the throttle the responds wouldn't be very smooth.

Nah. Think about the stock ninjette jetting; lean on the needles and Oprah up top. It's not ideal and the lean hiccup is noticeable, but not life altering.

Hate to admit it, but the manufacturers are already doing this for all vehicles put on market. Cars, bikes, everything. It's how they pass tests.

[rgx107]

I'm torn about this. First of all I don't see the point with raising the fuelling on a 300 Ninja, especially since the "Kleen Air" system is already doing this, and quite a lot too, from what I read it is adding around 10% (beyond lambda 1.0). If I want a bike that makes more power and takes more fuel, I can buy one.

I also have deep respect for CARB and EPA. You would have thought that the EU authorities were on their toes after EPA had exposed the cycle beating (european) truck manufacturers some 10 years ago but no, it had to be US authorities that caught VW doing the same thing, and had been doing it for years.

What I don't like is the hippocracy in this area. This thread suggests that it might be some kind of criminal offense to tamper with the engine control, even if you would do so to disable the Kleen Air and reduce fuel consumption. In EU it's even worse, formally you can't change anything on a vehicle at all. Manufacturers are of course delighted by this development, sending out all sorts of messages including that it will kill the kittens, lead to instant death and nuclear war if you change your rear view mirror. Which doesn't prevent them from selling power kits and upgrades to consumers themselves. Even Volvo is doing this now.

So back to the criminal offense again, does anyone think that the responsible people will go to jail for installing cycle beating software on 11 million cars? And what about all other vehicles, I don't think I know any model that hadn't got the ECM software adjusted shortly after the launch, to correct some issues with take offs or starting. Meaning more fuel is added. And that includes the Ninja 300, incidently. (Mine is still on the original SW, runs fine.)

Not to mention all the hundreds or thousands of test cars that a typical car manufacturer can have on the road, under some kind of deviation approval, with all kinds of modifications. You would be amazed if you knew.

Just saying. This legal area and its enforcement is not balanced.

[RacinNinja]

You are slightly misinformed about what these particular things do.....

The Kleen air system doesn't add fuel. It injects air into the exhaust to lean out the exhaust gases and make it EPA compliant. It does nothing to the mixture going into the engine.

Kleen air system... what is it? It's a basic air injection system that draws air into the exhaust system to lean out the exhaust gases at certain throttle settings. It, in conjunction wit the 2 catalytic converters in the stock exhaust system, lowers emissions to acceptable EPA levels so Kawasaki can sell the bikes in the US.

You'd be surprised what a PowerCommander can do for your machine. They can also take fuel OUT, not just add it. It will make your fuel mixture the most efficient throughout the RPM range.

If you have ABS, have you had that recall done?

The software for your 300 was because of a deceleration issue causing a stall, not stalling on take off......not necessarily adding fuel. Have a source for what exactly the ECU fixed? I can't find one. Might be cutting ignition, might be cutting fuel...

A recall is something that should always be taken seriously. If a manufacturer issues a recall it’s usually because they believe, or even worse, they know, you are in danger if you continue to operate their vehicle or motorcycle. In August of 2013, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) issued a recall for the Kawasaki Ninja 300. The models specifically manufactured between July 16, 2012 and April 27, 2013 were in danger. According to the NHTSA there was an issue with the settings for the Electronic Control Unit, or ECU for those motorcycles. The ECU settings issue would arise when decelerating the motorcycle from any speed and could cause the motorcycle to stall. I’m not sure about you but the last thing I want my motorcycle doing is stalling while I’m lowering my speed in the off ramp. Stalling while at a red light is one thing, but stalling while traveling a high rate of speed is something completely different. I can image how an inexperienced rider can quickly panic when encountered with this situation and thus increase his or her chances of an accident and possible bodily injury. This recall affects a total of 11,097 motorcycles that were manufactured within that time frame. Kawasaki has already has already notified all dealers and they should be able to perform the ECU switch at no extra cost to the rider.

[Somchai]

@rgx107 since you talk about the VW-Affair let me politely ask you if you really understand what's going on or do you believe in the propaganda-lies we're told?

[rgx107]

@Somchai I guess I have to go with believer of propaganda-lies, at least on high level VW has confirmed the accusations. And it has had real consequences, such as VW stock value halved and much of management replaced. These are no lies, or?

@RacinNinja Well, he-he, let's not underestimate the readers of this thread, most of them understand that the air bypass valve does not inject fuel. The point is that the FI models enrichen the fuel mixture a lot beyond certain rpms and throttle positions.

Good point about the lack of information regarding the ECU adjustment. You would have thought that such a critical recall would require full disclosure of what the problem is, what happens when the fault or disturbance occurs, and what has been done to prevent it. But we don't have this. I don't want to link to the other ninja forum, but apparently the issue is with the (deceleration) fuel cut-off. It was slightly too aggressive or enabled too aggressively (early) in the warm-up phase. The ECM update apparently disables the cut-off all together, which for sure prevents the engine from stalling. (And brings the ECM software 20 years back in time.) But this wasn't the point either, I'm just using this as an example to illustrate the problem.

Haven't had the ABS job done either, will do it but my bike is not in the shop that often. I did check the routing issues with the brake lines though.

[allanoue]

That was not polite.

It is like when someone will say "I'm not racist but" the next thing out of there mouth is guaranteed to be racist.

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by rgx107

@Somchai I guess I have to go with believer of propaganda-lies, at least on high level VW has confirmed the accusations. And it has had real consequences, such as VW stock value halved and much of management replaced. These are no lies, or?

@RacinNinja Well, he-he, let's not underestimate the readers of this thread, most of them understand that the air bypass valve does not inject fuel. The point is that the FI models enrichen the fuel mixture a lot beyond certain rpms and throttle positions.

Good point about the lack of information regarding the ECU adjustment. You would have thought that such a critical recall would require full disclosure of what the problem is, what happens when the fault or disturbance occurs, and what has been done to prevent it. But we don't have this. I don't want to link to the other ninja forum, but apparently the issue is with the (deceleration) fuel cut-off. It was slightly too aggressive or enabled too aggressively (early) in the warm-up phase. The ECM update apparently disables the cut-off all together, which for sure prevents the engine from stalling. (And brings the ECM software 20 years back in time.) But this wasn't the point either, I'm just using this as an example to illustrate the problem.

Haven't had the ABS job done either, will do it but my bike is not in the shop that often. I did check the routing issues with the brake lines though.

You have my curiosity.....I'm going to ask my tuner about the 300 Ninjas and if he's done any PowerCommanders on them and whether they are rich or lean.

Yes, it's a deceleration issue but was it spark cut or fuel cut? I'd really like to know just for the sake of knowing but we probably never will. In regards to the fuel cut off....my Yamaha came the same way from the factory. Riding the edge of the throttle in the turn was a bit butt puckering, as the fuel would come on and off and create a bit of a jerk, even perceptible in a straight line. Yes, it's old tech but it's also driveability tech. Not so much of a problem in a car that has 4 wheels planted in a corner....

I wonder if this an EU spec ECU thing to be rich? Most of the bikes here in the states are so lean from the factory it's a wonder they run at all.

[Somchai]

@RacinNinja from what I've seen and what I know they all run very lean in the lower rpm's.
The EX250-FI had or better to say "has" the same problem (at least not that much like the EX300), but that could be fixed very easy: disconnect the O2-Sensor and instead plug a resistor in to make the ecu 'think' the heater of it is working - problem solved.

@rgx107, yes go ahead with the propaganda-lies and believe in them since they come from the good-cop, the "Empire-of-Chaos" itself.
For sure did VW confirm the wrong-doing, what else should they say when the facts are clear? This all was very well known long before the news came up with it.
All the manufacturers are doing the same thing, so just ask yourself why are they going against VW?
One of the main reasons for this is to protect the non-competitive General Motors against a more and higher leveled Competitor (the main-owner of GM is the US-Gov. - you understand?).
Just take this:
- GM-Problem fined 900 mill. - 124 people dead
- Toyota-Problem fined 1.2 bill. - 4 people dead
- VW-Problem fined 90 bill. - 0 people dead
You see the relation, for America a dead human is not really important but the money means it all (because money makes the world go round).
See whom they go against now: Bosch and the other big names in Germany, take all those names and you'll understand that this is a war against the main industry and big knowledge of Germany to destroy it now.
The VW-Problem was NEVER as worse as that


So let's stop talking about this and believe me that there is much more what could be said about the Empire-of-Chaos...

[Alex]

Somchai - I'm not sure how to best phrase this, so please forgive my bluntness. Your content isn't helpful to the tone of this site. The anti-american bullshit you gravitate to is as tedious as it is unhinged. There are plenty of like-minded sites you can find to post on if that's what you want to focus on, but this is no longer one of them. There won't be another warning.

[MrAtom]

Originally Posted by allanoue

That was not polite.

It is like when someone will say "I'm not racist but" the next thing out of there mouth is guaranteed to be racist.

I'm not racist, but I really like you Unregistered, you're a really cool person

[rgx107]

Originally Posted by Somchai

...
So let's stop talking about this and believe me that there is much more what could be said about the Empire-of-Chaos...

Yes, we are far off topic. Let me just say that while there is an element of protectionism in this, not every manufacturer crossed the line. They all stretch, bend and interpret the rules creatively, but note that the other brands introducing diesel cars in US had to use Adblue (urea), because of the lower NOx limits. Only VW did not. Everybody knew? Well, since the nineties it was obvious one could easily detect the CARB driving cycle and switch fuel map. And yes every one was joking about it and worried about what other manufacturers were doing. But no, speculating and worrying is not the same as knowing. It must have been a quite small community around suppliers and car industry that knew.

And btw. no offense taken.