Integrated Turn Signal with a twist

[jschatte]

I am planning on doing the integrated tail light modification on my bike, however I did not like the fact that the outer lights (signals) were not functional as brake lights as well. I think having these extra lights as park lights would help for night time visibility as well as having a larger brake light (three bulbs instead of one). So I did some brainstorming and all lights can be fully functional with the utilization of a trailer light convertor. Here's what I came up with, what do you guys think? I have yet to do this to my bike as I am dealing with some engine issues first.

[choneofakind]

If they're turn signals, they need to be amber. If they're running lights on the rear, they need to be red.

You'd be better off just making those red parking lights, and then getting a small set of amber LED signals for the rear (don't forget an electronic flasher)

[jschatte]

According to Saskatchewan law:

Signal lamps 242
(1) The vehicle shall have signal lamps that:
(a) are positioned as far apart as practicable;
(b) emit a red or amber light to the rear and an amber light to the front; and
(c) flash on activation of a turn signal control located within easy reach of
the driver.
(2) One lamp may serve front and rear if that lamp is visible from the front and
rear.

But it could be different in the states and other provinces.

[choneofakind]

I stand corrected. My apologies.

Only reason I stated that initially is because I know that here, cars are allowed to have red turn signals on the rear, but motorcycles must have amber turn signals front and rear.

Carry on; looks like you know what you're doing.

[sombo]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I stand corrected. My apologies.

Only reason I stated that initially is because I know that here, cars are allowed to have red turn signals on the rear, but motorcycles must have amber turn signals front and rear.

Carry on; looks like you know what you're doing.

First time I've heard that. My 250 had the integrated signals, and as with 95% of pregens with that mod, the covers were still red. Never had any issues with it either.

[choneofakind]

maybe it's just Ohio then...

it's still more visible as a turn signal if it's amber

[Jono]

Yeah I am rocking red turn signals as well! No problems yet.

[95XL]

You should be fine wiring it that way with a trailer converter, I did it on my GF's 250 last year. I left the stock turn signals hooked up, only because if she took her road test on her bike, the brownie's might frown upon anything other than stock, so I didn't want it to be an issue, when she gets her license I plan on removing the stock signals.

The only issue I have with it is, the stock signal blinks right away, as it should. The taillight signal takes 2 or 3 blinks of the stock signal before it turns on, then when she hits the brakes, it quits blinking, but the running light stays on. (the stock signal continues to blink though), and the opposite side continues to be lit up as a brakelight. I'm not sure if it's an issue of having both signals attached to it or not, i haven't un-hooked the stock signals to check if thats the problem or not.

Good luck.

[95XL]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

maybe it's just Ohio then...

it's still more visible as a turn signal if it's amber

Heres a list of turn signal laws by state, I thought there was an amber law in NY as well, and if they were red they had to be "X" Inches apart and bladyblady bla. But, i couldn't find that anywhere, not even on the ABATE of NY website. Apparently theres no amber law in Ohio either...

http://www.cmsnl.com/community/misc/...t=Turn+Signals

[austexjg]

I have seen a set of aftermarket rear turn signals on ebay that act as brake lights as well. They state in the description that they do not come with instructions, so I have always passed.

[jschatte]

Originally Posted by 95XL

You should be fine wiring it that way with a trailer converter, I did it on my GF's 250 last year. I left the stock turn signals hooked up, only because if she took her road test on her bike, the brownie's might frown upon anything other than stock, so I didn't want it to be an issue, when she gets her license I plan on removing the stock signals.

The only issue I have with it is, the stock signal blinks right away, as it should. The taillight signal takes 2 or 3 blinks of the stock signal before it turns on, then when she hits the brakes, it quits blinking, but the running light stays on. (the stock signal continues to blink though), and the opposite side continues to be lit up as a brakelight. I'm not sure if it's an issue of having both signals attached to it or not, i haven't un-hooked the stock signals to check if thats the problem or not.

Good luck.

Yes that is a concern for me too. But Ill most likely take another bike when I take my roadtest, there will be some slightly frowned apon modifications done to my bike!
I figured I wasn't the first one to think of this. I have heard of problems caused by the motorcycle flasher, and by replacing it with a 2 pole automotive flasher the problems go away. Also you might have a funky trailer convertor. But I will get this wired up and see how it works. Sounds like a nice little project for this weekend!

[jschatte]

Finally got around to chopping off the fender and hooking up the lights. Here is a quick video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8EhDTUu3js

[Stingray1000]

bad A$$

[95XL]

Nicely done!

My gf recently passed her Motorcycle Safety Foundation course and promptly ammended her license to add the class M to it, soo I'll be chopping the rear fender in the next few weeks, so I'll be able to figure out what is causing the problems on her bike, whether it be a faulty trailer converter or whatever.

Nice Job, thats exactly how i pictured her bike when i added the converter.

[Megzd86]

A friend of mine just put the rear mirrors with signals in them, she wants to put flushmounts with a purple light bulb where the old signals were. She seems to think its legal because she considers the mirrors to count as her front signals. I'm not too sure that matters.
Does anyone know or know where I can find out? I live in NY

[jschatte]

Give it a quick search on google. I would stay away from weird colored signals, but that is just my opinion. Either red or orange on the back and orange on the front. Also I forgot to mention if anyone does this you need to upgrade your flasher. Any two pole automotive flasher will do.

[CZroe]

I want to do this with smoke lenses and red bulbs! Anyway, I have definitely read laws about turns signals needing to be X inches apart, hence the stalks, and even farther if you want to use red. I think they may have been US DOT regs that mostly affect import but I'm sure those states with motorcycle inspections check that stuff too. This requires dual filament bulbs in all pods, correct?

Now, I also want to do something similar with my integrated tail light in my newgen. I want to add an additional brake light bar under the tag mount that would be unaffected by this but, when flashing, I want the blinkers to shut off the integrated tail light's brake light and perhaps even the running light.

They are just way too hard to see, especially when they cause the brake/running light to dim and the whole thing appears to flash. It doesn't help that I and 1 in 10 other males have color-blindness that makes the amber/red distinction harder to distinguish.

Think you can design a schematic like that? I'd pay monie$!

[95XL]

Yes, this requires dual filament bulbs in both sockets. You can buy them at any auto-parts store, but when you buy them they only have the 2 contact wires installed, so you have to solder a ground wire to the outside of the socket.

I was going to suggest wiring in a relay to cut out your LED light bar when the blinkers fired, but that would cause it to blink on and off also. Perhaps it would work if you wired it in before the flasher unit, so there would be a constant 12v going to the relay to cut it out, give me a few minutes and i'll whip up a diagram for you...

[95XL]

here is just a simple schematic it would only work for a single "filament" As far as wiring the brake lights I'd be able to figure something out, probly if your led strip had 2 leads, one for dim (tailights) one for bright (brake) you could wire in 2 relays this way, just hook the 87a prong from one relay to the dim lead, and the 87a prong from the 2nd relay to the brite lead.

[CZroe]

Thank you so much. Now, would you happen to know a compatible relay model number for the one in the diagram?

[jschatte]

Originally Posted by CZroe

Thank you so much. Now, would you happen to know a compatible relay model number for the one in the diagram?

Go to any store and buy a 12V automotive relay, for this use no specific model number is necessary.

[95XL]

Originally Posted by jschatte

Go to any store and buy a 12V automotive relay, for this use no specific model number is necessary.

exactly what i was gunna say, just make sure it's a 5 prong relay, not a 4 prong.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by 95XL

Yes, this requires dual filament bulbs in both sockets. You can buy them at any auto-parts store, but when you buy them they only have the 2 contact wires installed, so you have to solder a ground wire to the outside of the socket.

I was going to suggest wiring in a relay to cut out your LED light bar when the blinkers fired, but that would cause it to blink on and off also. Perhaps it would work if you wired it in before the flasher unit, so there would be a constant 12v going to the relay to cut it out, give me a few minutes and i'll whip up a diagram for you...

The LED light bar would be connected normally outside of these circuits. The brake light and running light inside the integrated tail light is what I want to turn off while the blinkers are active. The thing is, I want them to stay off as long as the blinkers are flashing and not only the moments when they are lit. Like this:

Will this accomplish that?

If the brake/running light only turns off when the blinkers are lit, then the tail light will alternate flashing with the signal and, to someone color-blind like me, it could appear to be flashing on and off on the wrong side (one half will flash red completely on and off, the other will alternate indistinguishably between amber and red).

[95XL]

The brake light and running light inside the integrated tail light is what I want to turn off while the blinkers are active.

I completely mis-understood that in your other post, sorry. I thought you wanted your LED light bar to turn off.

To my knowledge there is no way of disconnecting the brake light (in the corner lights) while the blinkers are on. You can use the relay method to shut the running light filament off. But i dont know of anyway to shut the brake light filament off when the blinkers are on, because the brake light and blinkers use the same filament (which i'm sure you already know, cause you seem pretty knowledgeable). The only way i can think of achieving this is only if, each direction has a separate lead going into the flasher unit that stays on constant, if it does, you could wire in two more relays to criss-cross sides, to shut just the opposite bulb off. Thats the only way I can think of, but by the time you do that, you'd be running out of room under the seat between the four relays and the converter box.

[CZroe]

I thank you for the effort anyway! Perhaps you can still help though. It's not for the pregen, so it may not be as complicated as you think.

This particular bike is a newgen with no blinker pods and does not need the dual-filament "blinkers as brake lights" function, though I will be doing that on my pregen (thanks, guys!). The setup I'm asking for help with is a newgen integrated LED taillight. The L/R turn signals have their own leads and are amber LEDs interspersed with the dual brightness red LEDs. The ground is shared/common with the running/brake light function, which uses the same 3-wire connector as the OEM dual-filament taillight. It's five wires total (Run, Brake, ground, L, and R). This means that they do not share a "filament" with the brake function and do not need to kill a running light function when active nor do they need to function as running lights when the signal is inactive.

I simply need to turn off one of the redundant brake/running lights for the entire duration of the turn signal activation until they are turned off. I say "simply," but it's obviously too complex for me, which I why I'm hoping one of you can help.

[95XL]

Your in over my head with that one, but then again i've had no experience with the wiring in a new gen, perhaps a trip up to the newgen forum is in order? (maybe you've already been there, cause i don't browse those threads too frequently) Good Luck...

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by 95XL

Your in over my head with that one, but then again i've had no experience with the wiring in a new gen, perhaps a trip up to the newgen forum is in order? (maybe you've already been there, cause i don't browse those threads too frequently) Good Luck...

I'm just saying that it doesn't need to do any of the fancy stuff in the OP. The dual-filament brake light wires the exact same way as a pregen. There is only one wire per signal in this setup because they ground through the brake light's ground. It's exactly the same as if I wanted to kill the pregen's brake and running light when the blinkers were running.

[Snake]

Great job Josh. Adds visibility to the bike.

[jschatte]

Originally Posted by 95XL

Your in over my head with that one, but then again i've had no experience with the wiring in a new gen, perhaps a trip up to the newgen forum is in order? (maybe you've already been there, cause i don't browse those threads too frequently) Good Luck...

It looks like me and you are about the same as far a wiring goes, I also dont know how to wire it up haha. My suggestion would also be to take it over to the newgen side of the forum! Oh and Idk if you caught this, but pop in a new flasher unit on your gf's bike and it will work perfectly. I had the same problem as you with the signals stopping when the brake was on, but a new automotive flasher stopped this.

Originally Posted by Snake

Great job Josh. Adds visibility to the bike.

Thanks!

[95XL]

Oh and Idk if you caught this, but pop in a new flasher unit on your gf's bike and it will work perfectly. I had the same problem as you with the signals stopping when the brake was on, but a new automotive flasher stopped this.

Ah, thats good to know, because i just pulled out the whole light and soldered all the connections in permanently, and removed the stock turn signals. After i had it all done, I hooked it back up and thats what happened, hit the brakes and the blinkers stop working (actually the brake lights didn't even work in the outside pods, with the blinkers on or off). So I snipped the brake input into the converter box, and ran a jumper wire over to the center light, so now just the center has the brake light again. I'll try an automotive flasher unit an see what happens, thanks for the tip.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by jschatte

It looks like me and you are about the same as far a wiring goes, I also dont know how to wire it up haha. My suggestion would also be to take it over to the newgen side of the forum! Oh and Idk if you caught this, but pop in a new flasher unit on your gf's bike and it will work perfectly. I had the same problem as you with the signals stopping when the brake was on, but a new automotive flasher stopped this.



Thanks!

I still think I made it seem like I wanted something more complicated than I really want.

All I want to do is kill the dual-filament brake/running light when the blinkers are on. In other words, anytime the blinkers are on, the running light and the brake light will not function. If you only pay attention to the brake lever and the pregen tail light in this example, you will see what I mean:


Turning on the blinkers kills the brake/running light and the brake lever does nothing. Obviously this is dangerous so I would wire my own auxiliary running and brake light, but I'm sure I can figure that part out myself.

I've been asking about this kind of thing in the other forums for a long time and it technically isn't relevant to new or pregens. This is the first time I've ever seen anything close, so I hope you guys don't mind if I continue barking up this tree.

[95XL]

Now I understand exactly what you want to do, and i'm left with one question, WHY? I understand it's your bike, and you can do whatever you want with it. But it seems to me everyone is ADDING lights to make sure people behind them know they are slowing down. I realize your going to have your LED strip to act independantly while your stock lights are out, but IMO this seems a little sketchy.

Hopefully somebody else can chime in here and help you out...
Good Luck.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by 95XL

Now I understand exactly what you want to do, and i'm left with one question, WHY? I understand it's your bike, and you can do whatever you want with it. But it seems to me everyone is ADDING lights to make sure people behind them know they are slowing down. I realize your going to have your LED strip to act independantly while your stock lights are out, but IMO this seems a little sketchy.

Hopefully somebody else can chime in here and help you out...
Good Luck.

Link to original page on YouTube.
Because it's very dangerous in this condition. The license plate blocks the auxiliary blinkers and one in ten men are color blind like myself and have a very hard time telling which way I'm turning. The brightness of the brake/running light pulses with the blinker, which makes the whole thing appear to flash.

Adding stalk blinkers would mean having EIGHT blinkers. I'd rather add another brake light and solve the integrated tail light for myself and every other user of this particularly flawed model. The people with fender eliminator kits instead of undertails likely retained their stalk blinkers I had to make a mount for the plate from scratch.

I have no intention of removing lights. I will be doing the exact mod from the OP on my pregen. Heck, I'll probably use amber bulbs too! From my perspective on my newgen, it *is* adding lights by making the ones I already added more functional.

[CZroe]

OP:
If you do not want me talking about it here, I humbly request that you visit my pre-existing thread in the newgen section and help me there:
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=97580
You're my only hope!

All I really need to know is how to do it on a pregen. It's irrelevant that I intend to use it on a newgen, so I'm sorry I ever mentioned the newgen. I did so simply because I wanted to head off any "why?" questions, like @95XL's. That said, I have a pregen and intend to use your mod in it. May I continue discussing it here in terms of the pregen?

Once again, I would send my appreciation by PayPal! I obviously can't afford much or I would have gotten a better integrated tail light. Others may appreciate it too, though few would combine this cheapo tail light with an undertail (most would still have stalk blinkers).

You obviously accomplished more with your initial mod and I think it's great. I will be incorporating that into my pregen and I already owe you for that. That said, I do not understand the logic or how relays work and I haven't seen anywhere outside of this thread where someone else does in either the newgen or pregen sections.

[jschatte]

Originally Posted by CZroe

OP:
If you do not want me talking about it here, I humbly request that you visit my pre-existing thread in the newgen section and help me there:
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=97580
You're my only hope!

All I really need to know is how to do it on a pregen. It's irrelevant that I intend to use it on a newgen, so I'm sorry I ever mentioned the newgen. I did so simply because I wanted to head off any "why?" questions, like @95XL's. That said, I have a pregen and intend to use your mod in it. May I continue discussing it here in terms of the pregen?

Once again, I would send my appreciation by PayPal! I obviously can't afford much or I would have gotten a better integrated tail light. Others may appreciate it too, though few would combine this cheapo tail light with an undertail (most would still have stalk blinkers).

You obviously accomplished more with your initial mod and I think it's great. I will be incorporating that into my pregen and I already owe you for that. That said, I do not understand the logic or how relays work and I haven't seen anywhere outside of this thread where someone else does in either the newgen or pregen sections.

Well iti is my opinion just to go for the other taillight if it was avalable, It would have saved you alot of effort in research, time, and aggrivation. How much is your time worth? Anyway just my opinion. I dont think this can be done with simple relays and circuits due to how the signal light circuit is set up. The best I think of is have a bank of four relays for both left and right signal (eight relays in total) and this is very infeasable and a hackjob. The problem is the flasher is always hot and when it is sending current to the signal it is obviously not constant.I did some looking over the wiring harness as well as schematics of 3, 4, and 5 pole flashers, and like I said I dont think its possible with simple wiring.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by jschatte

Well iti is my opinion just to go for the other taillight if it was avalable, It would have saved you alot of effort in research, time, and aggrivation. How much is your time worth? Anyway just my opinion. I dont think this can be done with simple relays and circuits due to how the signal light circuit is set up. The best I think of is have a bank of four relays for both left and right signal (eight relays in total) and this is very infeasable and a hackjob. The problem is the flasher is always hot and when it is sending current to the signal it is obviously not constant.I did some looking over the wiring harness as well as schematics of 3, 4, and 5 pole flashers, and like I said I dont think its possible with simple wiring.

Thanks. This is what I needed to know then. Before recently selling it, I considered modding my OEM tail light because it fit the undertail much better (cracks are forming around the integrated one despite the housing and lens appearing to be a 100% identical copy of the OEM housing). I'd need to be sure that a different light is not going to fit worse before spending the money. Thanks for going through the trouble. I'm now going to look into PIC programming to see if I can make some logic to do this.

[95XL]

If having contrast for colorblindness is what you really really want, perhaps some of these would be easier to wire in than trying to cut out the existing, just don't hook up the wires for the integrated signals, and wire these in instead. Most of these options mount right to your license plate, to they don't stick out like the stalks, and you'd have the contrast you're looking for to offset people's colorblindness.

http://www.lockhartphillipsusa.com/s...me.php?cat=402

I had the Smoke colored DOT LED's on my FZ-1 for a while until i integrated my stock tailight on that, and they worked well, and didn't look too out of place, just looked like really big license plate bolts.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by 95XL

If having contrast for colorblindness is what you really really want, perhaps some of these would be easier to wire in than trying to cut out the existing, just don't hook up the wires for the integrated signals, and wire these in instead. Most of these options mount right to your license plate, to they don't stick out like the stalks, and you'd have the contrast you're looking for to offset people's colorblindness.

http://www.lockhartphillipsusa.com/s...me.php?cat=402

I had the Smoke colored DOT LED's on my FZ-1 for a while until i integrated my stock tailight on that, and they worked well, and didn't look too out of place, just looked like really big license plate bolts.

Thanks. I've actually had those in my online shopping cart for the last two weeks, but I stopped short of ordering them because they have no way to mount my LED bolt lights. If they also lit the tag they'd be perfect but I don't think they thought of that. I'm still considering one of those clip-on tag lights but I'd have to get rid of my plate frame.

On topic though, I ordered my lenses and sockets to do the OP's mod on the pregen. Thanks again!

[Felipe the Ant]

I just gotta say your drawing looks like a 3 legged boxer of some sort with his arms up after a match

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by Felipe the Ant

I just gotta say your drawing looks like a 3 legged boxer of some sort with his arms up after a match

Ha! I totally see it.