Sat on some supersports today... gimme a break!

[adouglas]

Okay, so truth be told I was jonesing for a motorcycle experience today and it's raining hard, so I stopped by a dealer on the premise that I "needed" some chemicals/supplies.

I sat on a few 2009-vintage bikes. Suzuki SV650F (love dem V-twins), a GSXR600, a CBR600RR, an FZ6R, and a YZF-R6.

I'm a short guy, so in order to do anything but stiff-arm the bars on a supersport bike I have to lean way, way forward. I mean A LOT. As in, I basically need to lie down on the tank in order to avoid having my elbows locked.

I've gotten a lot more comfortable recently with the idea of lying down on the tank, so the SS riding position doesn't bug me as much as it once did... though it really would be awfully nice to find a sport bike made to fit somebody under 5'10".

I think I could deal with any of these bikes except the R6. On the R6 with the bike upright and my feet relaxed (toes pointing towards the ground) my toes were at least an inch off the floor.

But I keep coming back to the same thought:

WHY THE HECK ARE ALL OF THESE BIKES SO TALL?

I thought the Japanese tended to be relatively short people compared to Americans.

The reality is that you don't just put your toe down at stop lights. You also have to put your foot down on uneven or soft surfaces. You also need to maneuver the bike with your feet in parking lots and driveways. From time to time you need to propel the bike up an incline while sitting on it.

And for those things, a toe-touch won't do.

To be perfectly honest, while I do believe that 250cc is all I actually need, the real reason I didn't buy a bigger bike is that the 250R fits me like a glove.

This is nuts. Why are the manufacturers blind to the incessant, endless Internet traffic about bike lowering and ignorant of the sizeable market for lowering kits?

[Greg_E]

Those bikes are for the most part not really designed to be on the street. You don't sit on a bike on the track, you kind of hang on it and move around a lot. As far as not hitting the ground, well that's the way they kind of need to be to keep the hard parts off the pavement when you are leaned over at 60 degrees.

[Talonne]

I feel ya.

Lets not even talk supersports... I sat on a Suzuki Gladius today (a 650cc standard with a fully upright seating position) and I was holding the thing up with ballet pointe feet on both sides.

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by Greg_E

As far as not hitting the ground, well that's the way they kind of need to be to keep the hard parts off the pavement when you are leaned over at 60 degrees.

Yeah, understood.

The thing is, these bikes are SOLD as street bikes.

Go into any dealer and you see WAY more SS bikes than realistic sport bikes.

The dealer I visited today had two 'busas, two or three GSXR1000s, another two or three GSXR750s, two GSXR600s, two CBR1000s, two CBR600s, four or five R6s.... and a grand total of maybe four sport-ish bikes that weren't in the SS class.

They stock what sells, I guess, even if it makes no frakkin' sense.

It's just another proof point that I'm way off on the end of the bell curve (which I am, in many different ways... I kind of like it out here... it's uncrowded.... ).

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by Talonne

I feel ya.

Lets not even talk supersports... I sat on a Suzuki Gladius today (a 650cc standard with a fully upright seating position) and I was holding the thing up with ballet pointe feet on both sides.

You have nice legs! hehehe

[andrewexd]

yeah the supersport segment makes up 50% of all motorcycle sales if im not mistaken. I think I could bear one if I shaved the seat an inch and wore boots.

[adouglas]

IMHO one should not have to.

If you were to buy a sporty car, would you think it reasonable to HAVE to change the seat and your footwear in order to drive it?

This situation sucks.

[Sinister]

Reminds me of what a friend said when he came to the kawa dealership with me one day. He's a lil on the shorter side 5'4" or 5"5" ish i think. He wasn't nearly as politically correct with his comment though. Something along the lines of "WTF aren't these damned things made for 5 foot tall japanese guys with their 4 foot tall schoolgirls?!" as he crawled off of a zx10.

Another friend (also on the shorter side) who prefers cruisers always compares riding a sport bike to riding a dolphin... don't ask, i have no clue.

[fujimumu]

I've had similar experiences. I'm 5'9", sat on a hayabusa once and it was like straddling a tank. Even the Ninja 250 is a little tall for my comfort, unless I'm wearing my boots (which will be always).

[Greg_E]

In all reality... The 07 Ninjette I sat on was slightly taller than the XB9R I just received, that said your knees on the XB9R are way up by your elbows. A lot of guys drop the pegs an inch or so, but for me it seems like a perfect fit. My Katana was always a little on the tall side for me, I could get one foot flat, but never both flat (but close).

[sombo]

You also have to realize that most of the bikes you sat on......... aren't sold in Japan. I looked at their Japanese sites and found out that most of the supersport bikes we have here are not offered in Japan. They still have the old style sport bikes like the ZRX style bikes.

[komohana]

while i fully understand the short-sided view of the thread...it reminds me of this guy i know who invited me up to the local canyon curvz when i got my 700 interceptor. this guy has been riding for the majority of his life (he was in his late 40's at the time), dirt mostly, and he rode this GS1100E remember those? he's 5'4" and thats stretching it...he used to drag race this thing...launching off the tips of his toes. ANYWAY...being the noobie i was i barely kept up w/him an almost died twice...but that guy rode the hell outta that thing! he reminded me of what lance link would look like doing what he was doing...
i think his riding experience made him able to ride....whatever he wanted to

aloha

[backinthesaddleagain]

Sat on a 2008 R6 today. Used for only 600 miles. Buyer didn't like ergonomics of it. Dealer said my bike + 3800 + sales tax. I have 8000 miles on 2009 250R and new tire will be needed soon on the rear.

[ninjabrewer]

Originally Posted by adouglas

IMHO one should not have to.

If you were to buy a sporty car, would you think it reasonable to HAVE to change the seat and your footwear in order to drive it?

This situation sucks.

I agree, I sat on a Triumph Daytona a few months ago and was barely able to get one foots toe down. I read on one of the Triumph forums, Triumph675 I think, that one individual got lowering links and Helibars to adapt the riding position more to him and so he could get his feet down when stopped.

nb

[sharky nrk]

there are alot of things that go into the design of a motorcycle. when we look at something like a super sport, rider cruising comfort, flat foot ability, cozy reach, ect ect are way way down the list. these bikes are designed to sacrifice the above mentioned things for performance. why? because of racing and because the buying public THINKS that they need this and continue to buy them. If the consumer was more practical about such things, they would sell and stock more bikes like the sports category. But alot of buying, owning, and riding a motorcycle is passion - and passion can be misguided.

[addy126]

I like the ergos of the Yah FZ6R which is about as close to the N-250 you can get for seating. My feet are on pavement when I wear the boots... the bars are in just the right position. Keep in mind the FZ6R does have the only "adjustable" seat on the market from what I've been researching for upsizing to a larger bike.

[Sailariel]

I always liked the Honda 1100ST and the BMW 1200---problem is that they are too tall. The older more traditional bikes like the Triumph TR-6, Triumph Tiger 100, various BSA bikes were all a good fit. The new Yamaha FZ6R is a good fit. Guess we don`t have as many choices as we had in the past. If we really wanted to go Retro, there is always the Royal Enfield Bullet 500.

[GreezMunky]

Originally Posted by ninjabrewer

I agree, I sat on a Triumph Daytona a few months ago and was barely able to get one foots toe down. I read on one of the Triumph forums, Triumph675 I think, that one individual got lowering links and Helibars to adapt the riding position more to him and so he could get his feet down when stopped.

nb

No problem getting both my feet down on my daytona. Granted I have to have boots on with an inch heel, but that is for a comfortable both feet completely flat.

You just have stubby legs.

[Hedge36]

If it makes you feel any better, my 34" inseam doesn't allow me to flat foot my GS. Flat footing on both sides isn't really a necessity, it just comes in handy every once in a while

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by adouglas

The reality is that you don't just put your toe down at stop lights. You also have to put your foot down on uneven or soft surfaces. You also need to maneuver the bike with your feet in parking lots and driveways. From time to time you need to propel the bike up an incline while sitting on it.

And for those things, a toe-touch won't do.

I don't count em, of course, but a good percentage of the people riding around the areas I ride can NOT get more than toes on the ground. My guestimate would be in the area of 1/3... enough that it's very common, and these people aren't letting it stop them. I actually never intentionally looked for it until after joining this forum, but I notice it a lot now.

Why are you propelling a motorcycle up hills with your feet while on the bike? Use the engine or get off the bike and push. I don't think I've ever pushed a motorcycle up hill like that and I can flat foot most street bikes.

The only thing limiting you to riding a small bike is you.

[adouglas]

You're missing the point.

I CAN operate a bike that's too tall, but I'd rather ride a bike that fits me!

Seriously... pad your seat with a towel or something so you can only tiptoe and try living with the bike that way for a month. Not just a minute or an hour or a day. LIVE with it and see what the issues really are.

Next time you get in your car move the seat back two or three inches so you can only reach the pedals with your toes. Imagine if that were as far forward as the seat could go.

A person with longer legs than you would say "Gee, what's the problem? You can still operate the car."

The fact is you do not know what it's like because you can flat foot most bikes.

Don't criticize until you've walked a mile in the other guy's shoes.

People tiptoe their bikes because they have little choice. If my priority were to have a supersport I'd pretty much be forced to. That does not mean it wouldn't be a pain in the friggin' neck to live with the bike.

[Hedge36]

I feel your pain, but the reality is that all bikes are a compromise of some sort. If parking your butt in the seat and twisting the throttle gives you wood for 500 miles a day over the course of a season, there's sure to be something about the bike that's difficult to live with - wind management, a crap seat, the usual gripes that need to be tweaked a bit.

I've got a 34" inseam and a 36" seat height. Parking spaces can be a bitch, but you adapt pretty quickly and park accordingly. I've also got a 9 gallon tank that a) allows me to run forever without looking for fuel and b) makes the damn thing that much more difficult to maneuver in the lot when the tank's full. What to do? The answer is simple: if it suits 90% of your needs and wants, just ride it. Hell, put shorter shocks on it if you really have to, or let the springs settle over 30,000 miles or so. By then you won't notice the height anyway.

[Hedge36]

Originally Posted by Sailariel

I always liked the Honda 1100ST and the BMW 1200---problem is that they are too tall. The older more traditional bikes like the Triumph TR-6, Triumph Tiger 100, various BSA bikes were all a good fit. The new Yamaha FZ6R is a good fit. Guess we don`t have as many choices as we had in the past. If we really wanted to go Retro, there is always the Royal Enfield Bullet 500.

The Bonneville T100 is my "retro" favorite. And these days it comes with decent electrics and a motor that won't grenade 100 miles from the house

[adouglas]

If the exact same bike were made with a 34" seat height option, wouldn't that be a good thing?

You're putting up with a hassle because you have to, right?

I really don't think it's too much to ask to have manufacturers build a machine that would fit so many of us better. There is clearly demand for one, otherwise there would be no market for lowering kits.

[Hedge36]

Originally Posted by adouglas

If the exact same bike were made with a 34" seat height option, wouldn't that be a good thing?

You're putting up with a hassle because you have to, right?

I really don't think it's too much to ask to have manufacturers build a machine that would fit so many of us better. There is clearly demand for one, otherwise there would be no market for lowering kits.

Well, not really - I do a different sort of riding. I actually got the Adventure model for the increase in ground clearance for off-road stuff. The flat-foot issue is just something I had to learn to work around.

Most of these bikes are over-sprung off the showroom floor anyway and will settle quite a bit over a few thousand miles. I've long suspected that the manufacturers do that on purpose to save themselves warranty issues in the first year because of "failed" suspension bits.

[Alex]

Packaging has compromises. Bike designers aren't just adding 6" to the seat to make the seat height higher for the fun of it, an entire litany of design choices resulted in the rider positioning needing to be a certain way. Bike needs to carry X amount of fuel, engine is X tall and X deep, airbox size for acceptable engine performance needs to be X big, suspension travel needs to be X, rider seat must only be X inches from handlebars, minimum/maximum lean angle needs to be X, and out pops answers that may not give as much flexibility as we'd like.

One of the reasons that twins are popular is that their thinness (when looked at from above), allows the bike to feel more manageable, and can even disguise a higher seat height as the effective reach to the ground is less than if it were a much wider bike.

I can only speak for myself here, but comfort and performance while riding the bike trump any compromises that would have to be made to make it easier to flat-foot a bike while walking it around. For example, the seat on my BMW is adjustable for height in several different positions, and I always have it in the absolute highest position, even though it means I am putting my toes down at a stop, and nowhere close to my heels. The higher position gives me much more room between the footpegs and the seat, and makes for a much more comfortable position for long-distance riding. I wouldn't want the bike sprung any lower as it would compromise lean angle and suspension performance. There's no way here to get all 3 things in one identical setup (seat height low enough to flatfoot, pegs high enough to allow deep lean angles, and enough room between pegs and seat for comfort). Of those 3 things though, the first is far and away the one that I care about the least.

[Hedge36]

Alex, you running the stock seat on your RT? Does it have the nut-buster slope that the GS suffers from?

[Alex]

Nope, I've got a custom Rick Mayer saddle on it. (Which is actually a little wider and taller than stock). The stock RT seat isn't terrible, I prefer it to the stock GS seats; but it's still not a 24-hr seat like some of the custom aftermarket ones can become.

[ninjabrewer]

Originally Posted by GreezMunky

No problem getting both my feet down on my daytona. Granted I have to have boots on with an inch heel, but that is for a comfortable both feet completely flat.

You just have stubby legs.

That I do. When you rode or sat on your 250, how much of your foot/feet could you put down, with regular shoes or boots, no the ones w/ inch heels? And how does that compare to the Daytona? I know the seat height on the Daytona is about 1.5 in higher than the 250.

Main reason I want to be able to put both feet down is personal comfort. I have been riding almost a year, my 250 is the first and only bike that I have had up to this point. I feel much more confident that when I come to a stop, I don't have to worry about getting a foot down, either one will do. When stopped with both feet down, neither is flat, I have the balls of my feet + a little more, but their not flat on the ground, and, so far, I haven't had any problems getting in and out of parking spaces, the carport or other tight places.

Originally Posted by Hedge36

I've also got a 9 gallon tank that a) allows me to run forever without looking for fuel.

Dude, that is lot of gas, I like my coffee too much to have a tank that big.

nb

[Hedge36]

Originally Posted by ninjabrewer

Dude, that is lot of gas, I like my coffee too much to have a tank that big.

nb

That tank definitely outlasts my ass. But I keep a thermos in my tankbag - thank goodness for throttle locks!

[Greg_E]

That used to be the Paris-Dakar version with the 9 gallon tank.

Even the old K75S had a high seat height, but of so comfortable compared to most sport bikes of the 1990 vintage.

[Daeldren]

check out some Ducati's, they fit me fairly comfortable and I have like a 28" inseam

[Hedge36]

Originally Posted by Greg_E

That used to be the Paris-Dakar version with the 9 gallon tank.

Even the old K75S had a high seat height, but of so comfortable compared to most sport bikes of the 1990 vintage.

Ayuh. The PD was a lot lower CG. I miss that bike.

[Cedilla]

I wish the seat was much higher on my ninjette. When I come to a stop I can flatfoot it with my knees still bent, when I straighten my legs if feels like I am towering over the bike, and the seat is inches below me. If they started lowering seat heights the bikes would become uncomfortable to taller riders.

[Talonne]

It's one of those things where you just can't win... I just wish there were a larger VARIETY of seat heights out there. It seems like the vast majority of sportbikes are 32" and up.

I wouldn't be able to ride the 250 at stock height if I didn't have a .75" platform on my boots.

[revstriker]

After riding the 250 for awhile, I traded to the zx-6r and it felt just as you described. After riding it home from the dealer, about a 45 minute ride, my back was cramped and my wrists hurt. After a few more times out on the bike though, you get used to the riding position, and it is actually quite comfortable. You just need to use your core to support yourself, and NOT put too much weight on your hands/wrists. I find the bike a lot more comfortable than the 250, especially at higher speeds.

[sofo]

Originally Posted by revstriker

After riding the 250 for awhile, I traded to the zx-6r and it felt just as you described. After riding it home from the dealer, about a 45 minute ride, my back was cramped and my wrists hurt. After a few more times out on the bike though, you get used to the riding position, and it is actually quite comfortable. You just need to use your core to support yourself, and NOT put too much weight on your hands/wrists. I find the bike a lot more comfortable than the 250, especially at higher speeds.

Agreed. After riding some 600 sportbikes I felt the same way initially then after learning to support myself more with my core muscles the more aggressive position is also more comfortable. I almost want clip-ons and racing rearsets for my 250R until I get another bike.

There are a lot of design decisions that require a higher seat, both to position the rider and to accomodate things like the rear suspension. The 2010 Z1000 with it's horizontal rear shock bringing a lower seat height is a good example of how different design can be beneficial to the short in stature (myself included).

That said, I have no problems tippy-toe'ing a supersport if need be. Like a mid-engined Ferrari or Lamborghini with it's offset and canted driving position or the beautiful Lotus cars with their tight pedals and small cabins, form sometimes follows function.

[GreezMunky]

Originally Posted by ninjabrewer

That I do. When you rode or sat on your 250, how much of your foot/feet could you put down, with regular shoes or boots, no the ones w/ inch heels? And how does that compare to the Daytona? I know the seat height on the Daytona is about 1.5 in higher than the 250.

Main reason I want to be able to put both feet down is personal comfort. I have been riding almost a year, my 250 is the first and only bike that I have had up to this point. I feel much more confident that when I come to a stop, I don't have to worry about getting a foot down, either one will do. When stopped with both feet down, neither is flat, I have the balls of my feet + a little more, but their not flat on the ground, and, so far, I haven't had any problems getting in and out of parking spaces, the carport or other tight places.

I could flat foot my ninja with extra bend in my knees. (and that's with my combat boots on so almost a 1in heel) With my boots on with my daytona my legs are completely straight and if I'm pushing the bike any where I'm using on my toes because that's the only way I can enough leverage to move it. (just using my *muscles* though, no help from the bike being in gear) The ninja, not so much. I could walk my ninja all day no problem.

I also enjoy putting both my feet down for comfort. The only reason I survived an unexpected stoppie on my daytona pulling it into a toy hauler (too much gas at the last moment to get over the hump) is because I was able to plant both my feet on the ground and keep the bike upright as the back tire slammed down. Same response for the unexpected and the only reason I kept the bike from falling. Both feet planted, held and forced the bike upright again.

That's just me though, I know plenty of people that do just fine on the tips of their toes.

[CC Cowboy]

I rarely get more than my toes down while sitting on a bike (with the exception of the bigger Harleys I have owned). I've never had any problems riding or stopping or anything else on a bike though.

I did have some clod at a Harley Dealer tell me that I shouldn't ride any bike where my feet down sit flat on the ground while seated. I didn't have the heart to tell him that I've had over 50 bikes and the BOSS HOG he was sitting on was the only piece of shiit bigger than him in the whole dealership.

Ever try to reach the ground on a KX250? That's the tallest I've ridden and I got that bike to go (and stop).

[shadow]

I have to say that, at least in XP, 90% of the time you REALLY don't need both feet down. I'm 5'7, a little on the leggy side, yes, can flatfoot a 250r (STRAIGHT leg though), but have straddled an R6 (05 and 09) and BOTH I am semi-flatfoot/tippy on. Quite comfy, and on the 250 I generally NEVER put both feet down, it disallows use of the back brake. I was always taught, and always practice, putting only one foot down, and only once ive come to a COMPLETE stop. Try keeping the bike upright going as slow as possible, especially being "smaller" you can have better control as to where your balance point is on the bike. Also, its not good practice to be "dragging feet" off from a stop, if the bike twitches on something, or your foot catches a pothole, it can be very bad for toes and ankles. Uphills shouldnt EVER be holding the bike with feet. Cool if you can do it, but again, its less control than using the front or back brake. Its ok to let it tip to one side at a light, if you look at the "shorties" of sport riders, the bike is seldom upright when they're at a light. For comfort, switch which feet you're holding the bike with (r/l) when you're waiting. If you REALLY need to get both feet down, just pull off, "N" the bike, and hop off for a few seconds.

If you need to move it ANYWHERE, use it in gear to move it forward. If you feel sketchy doing this (I agree, trailers can get a little awkward with the lip at the top), its not often you'll be loading a bike on a trailer Solo. Ask you assistant to get the other handlebar, and move it up with both of you on each side. If, for whatever reason you need to go back, you just get off and push it back via handlebars and passenger loop/handle (while in neutral). Works just fine, I'm 135lbs or so and have no problems moving it, including steeper inclines on a dirt driveway. Moved R6's back to place at the dealership w/o issue as well.
BTW - if you are die-hard to get the feet down, take a peek at the 07 and up GSXR 600+750. theyre the shortest seat-heights of the SS lines, something like 30.5 in. Plus most 07 used bikes are already lowered. (most gixxer users do it because it also makes the bike look better...)