Well the proverbial first crash has occurred...

[THE BIG SITT]

Well the other day I was leaving work and I had a little incident. I had just finished a long day and was ready to get home. So I started up the 250 and let it warm up while I put on my helmet and jacket and whatnot. When I got on, the bike was warmed up and the airport parking garage was near empty, so I got a little "spirited" on the 4th floor.

I was getting to the point to where I needed to turn out of the garage so I began to slow down. I was going about 20mph when I applied the brake. As soon as I applied the brake, I felt the rear slide out to the right. So I let go of my rear brake (I kept on the front) and the bike straightened out. At this point i was probably going 15mph. I quickly got back on the brake but the rear slid out again, but this time much more dramatic. At this point i was no where near being stopped, and I was heading for a wall. So I made the split second decision to just give up and go down with the bike as opposed to hitting the wall and flipping over the barrier down four floors.

Well when I went down, I kinda got to a point where the bike had gain a little traction while the rear wheel was way out to the left. This resulted in the bike quickly rocking over to the right side of the bike, taking me with it. Naturally, I braced for impact with my hands, which kinda hurt a little. At this point, I was more embarrassed than anything, so I quickly picked up the bike and got moving again.

In the end, I ended up with a bruised hand, sprained wrist, bruised knee, and some minor scrapes. As for the bike, the right fairing is cracked and scraped, the right handlebar is bent, the brake lever is bent, and the exhaust is lightly scratched.

I feel like I did alright for a rider with less than a months of experience. Sure, an expert probably wouldn't have crashed (because they wouldn't have put themselves in the situation), but in the end, I learned a little.

I feel like the slippery concrete used in parking garages contributed to the wreck. Also, it was raining so I may have hit a wet spot. Lastly, my stock tires with 8600 miles may have contributed as well.

But I'm ok, and I'll live to ride another day! Well, I'll ride after I fix the stuff I messed up, as well as my bike continuing engine issues (see thread here: http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=84250).

[dubojr1]

Glad your ok!

[Alex]

Glad your injuries were minor!

I sometimes sound like a broken record in this area, but it applies here as well. More front brake, less rear brake. Given only the following two options: It's better to not use the rear at all, than it is to lock the rear and have to recover while still stopping. Sure, it's optimal to be able to use exactly the right amount of rear to complement the front, but if a rider can't do that instantaneously, repeatedly, and without a second thought; it causes more harm than good for new riders.

[Lou]

Bummer for the bike, glad your alright. Did your turn signal punch through your fairing?

[Chuffmonkey]

Andy (right name this time) - have you done the MSF course? If you haven't I can't recommend it enough.
I've been riding as long as long as you have and haven't yet locked my rear wheel, so take what I say with a pinch of salt, but they tell you that if you lock your rear wheel you should, under no circumstances, ease up on the brake.
If you do you are likely to high side, which is what you did.

If you lock the front you should let go and reapply.

[jamesio]

Glad you're ok dude.

Gotta be careful with that rear brake tho. It doesn't matter what could have been done anymore because it's said and done. I would say don't get into the habit of letting off your rear brake if you experience a rear slide. Instead, try and ride it out, take the low side if you have to. Riders who instinctively let off the rear brake when the rear looses traction a lot of times will end up high siding because the rear wheel will catch back traction again. The rear wheel often times will over correct in a whipping motion, resulting in the rider being thrown off like a rag doll. I'm not sure if what you described is a highside(going over the handle bars), or if you just kind of fell over with the bike.

Edit - Take the bike out to an empty parking lot and really practice getting on the brakes hard. Practice skidding the rear and riding it out while also using a lot of front brake. I did this for a solid hour and not only did I feel dramatically more confident emergency braking but I learned what it feels like to have the rear skid in a hard braking situation. After a few times it became pretty fun. My stops became quicker and quicker and since then there have been situations where I am glad I practiced emergency braking.

Alot of people say to not use the rear brake at all but to be honest I use mine a lot. In combination and in the right amount with the front brake it is very useful. Especially during low speed maneuvers, it really tightens up the bike and helps with handling.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by Chuffmonkey

Jason - have you done the MSF course? If you haven't I can't recommend it enough.
I've been riding as long as long as you have and haven't yet locked my rear wheel, so take what I say with a pinch of salt, but they tell you that if you lock your rear wheel you should, under no circumstances, ease up on the brake.
If you do you are likely to high side, which is what you did.

If you lock the front you should let go and reapply.

I think you meant this for Andy.

[Chuffmonkey]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

I think you meant this for Andy.

Oops - yeah I did. Noob on a bike and noob behind the keyboard apparently

[dubojr1]

There's an edit button on your original post. You can correct it there to avoid any confusion.

[Honko]

This may be too much of a generalization, but I feel like most people who use the rear brake as their main means of stopping power instead of the front, probably haven't taken the msf.

[NathanF]

Originally Posted by Alex

Glad your injuries were minor!

I sometimes sound like a broken record in this area, but it applies here as well. More front brake, less rear brake. Given only the following two options: It's better to not use the rear at all, than it is to lock the rear and have to recover while still stopping. Sure, it's optimal to be able to use exactly the right amount of rear to complement the front, but if a rider can't do that instantaneously, repeatedly, and without a second thought; it causes more harm than good for new riders.

Good call. I really don't understand these rear break crashes - I almost never use mine, to a fault. (I'm practicing using it more so there is a greater chance I'll use it instinctively in a panic situation where I need that extra 30 percent.) And I've only been riding a few months.

Are new riders typically afraid of locking the front up? Or is it just that new riders have a problem shaking the idea that foot = brake from learning how to drive cars?

Sorry to hear about the OP. Glad you're OK!

[rusninja]

Sorry to hear glad your ok. :]

[Momaru]

Glad to hear you're ok man. Sorry about the bike, but would've been worse if you'd have gone headlong into the wall, so good call to try and stop

+1 to more front, less rear. It just takes practice. Sounds like you were trying to get some in that garage and just wound up getting some fairly expensive experience.

Jamesio, I believe the term highside doesn't necessarily mean going over the handlebars (like you did a stoppie and failed to hold on, which is called an 'endo') so much as it is exactly what seems to have happened here. The terms refer to the side of the bike you are exiting from.
When turning, you're leaned. Dropping the bike the shorter distance, into the turn (through loss of traction, etc) is a lowside. Typically the bike hits before the rider in a lowside.
Conversely, having the bike kick up and go over towards the outside of the turn, falling on the side that had been facing more 'up' is a highside, usually by way of the bike standing upright too fast due to locking the rear then releasing.

[hoodadooda]

Glad you're alright. Also, the back brake on these bikes is something else... loves to lock up. In my first few months of riding, I had a really frightening experience with the rear brake. I was coming up to an intersection doing a bit more than I should since I wasn't paying attention. Not paying attention on the road is a VERY BAD idea. The light turned yellow and I figured I wasn't going to make it, so I slammed on the rear while using all of the front brake I thought I had. I ended up running the red light leaving a long skid mark across the entire intersection. To add icing to the cake, I barely avoided a pedestrian who thought everyone stopped at the light so he could cross. He just got to the median when I went squealing right by him. I saw his face for a split second and it told me what I'm sure everyone witnessing this was thinking "WTF, man!"

I now know that the front brake had MORE than enough power to stop me that day and that you can either pay attention or pay with your life.

[THE BIG SITT]

Alot of good information here guys. I haven't yet taken a MSF class, but I plan on doing one soon. As far as not letting go of the rear brake when it locks up, thats actually news to me. That may have been the main contributing factor to my crash. I just wish I would have read that, as well as the tire change recommendations BEFORE the crash, because I feel like I could have avoided what will end up being at least $650 in damage…

BTW… anybody wanna donate to the "Help-Andy-get-back-on-his-bike-sooner-than-later fund"?

[THE BIG SITT]

Originally Posted by NathanF

Good call. I really don't understand these rear break crashes - I almost never use mine, to a fault. (I'm practicing using it more so there is a greater chance I'll use it instinctively in a panic situation where I need that extra 30 percent.) And I've only been riding a few months.

Are new riders typically afraid of locking the front up? Or is it just that new riders have a problem shaking the idea that foot = brake from learning how to drive cars?

Sorry to hear about the OP. Glad you're OK!

Maybe its just me (I'm sure it is) but I feel like the bike is a little squirrely(?) when only using the front brake? Does no one else feel this way?

[n4mwd]

You're lucky you weren't going faster when you high sided. It also sounds like you might have been riding in the grease strip. That's the middle of the road where cars leak oil. The left or right side is best.

The pregen must be more forgiving with the back brake. I have locked it up several times and it generally fishtails. If I let go of the rear brake when both wheels are in line, then its usually not much of a problem. But if its slightly out of line, then it will snap back and try to throw me.

I've been lucky so far and have since taken Alex's advice and use the front brake more heavily now. If you lock the front, you can release it and start over without fear of going down. But if it stays locked for long, you'll go down pretty quick because that's what holds the bike up.

[Toly]

Originally Posted by THE BIG SITT

Alot of good information here guys. I haven't yet taken a MSF class, but I plan on doing one soon. As far as not letting go of the rear brake when it locks up, thats actually news to me. That may have been the main contributing factor to my crash. I just wish I would have read that, as well as the tire change recommendations BEFORE the crash, because I feel like I could have avoided what will end up being at least $650 in damage…

I haven't taken MSF, but doesn't it teach to use both brakes? That IMHO is not very good advice for a new rider on a Ninjette.

From what I heard, you'll have to unlearn 50% of what they teach you in MSF as you gain experience.

[Alex]

It teaches to use both brakes. It teaches if you lock the rear wheel by braking, to keep it locked and manage your balance until you come to a complete stop.

That advice isn't necessarily bad, or wrong. New riders typically don't brake that hard, and using a little bit of both brakes is probably better than not using enough of either, and having very long stopping distances. And not letting off the rear once it locks is a way to try and minimize an unexpected highside.

But as people both gain skills, and find themselves travelling at speeds many times faster than they were in that parking lot or on side streets, braking becomes a bit different. An emergency stop from 70+ mph is going to feel very different from one at 25 mph. Or even one at 50 mph. And a *very* common occurrence with new riders facing that situation for the first few times is to stomp on the rear brake, locking it much sooner or easier than they'd ever expect. As at high speeds with significant weight transfer to the front, it takes a very light touch to apply the right amount of rear without locking it.

If a rider can't reliably use the rear without locking it from those higher speeds, IMO, they should be very cautious about using it all for emergency stops. And only bake it into their skills when they have enough experience to use it in a way that helps rather than hurts.

[Highalltheway]

Would this bike be considered a total loss by the insurance company with the amount of damage?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Toly

I haven't taken MSF, but doesn't it teach to use both brakes? That IMHO is not very good advice for a new rider on a Ninjette.

From what I heard, you'll have to unlearn 50% of what they teach you in MSF as you gain experience.

A lot of people use the acronym "MSF" to mean BRC - Basic Rider Course which is required in many states and always a good idea for new riders. However, if you already have riding experience, you might find the Experienced Rider Course of more value. I still recommend that you obtain the BRC reading materials and commit them to memory because there is a lot of good stuff in there.

As far as teaching incorrect stuff - I haven't found much so far. The only thing I noticed is that they emphasize looking into the turn when you turn. Its true on a closed course, but what's more important on the road is to look the opposite way to make sure nobody is going to run you over - then look into the turn.

[Amezcua]

Originally Posted by Lou

Bummer for the bike, glad your alright. Did your turn signal punch through your fairing?

Baha'i have 2 matching cracks on my fairings do to oversized turn signals had to replace them for new aftermarket

[Lou]

Yeah, those turn signals dont forgive you much, i have a cracked (actualy a hole) right fairing . Fortunate for me i was able to buy all the fairings 09 se for a good price from a member who is racing his 250 , Shogun frame sliders are next on the install list.

[ninjagaiden09]

Glad you are OK but sorry to hear about your bike.

[Gurk]

I posted a thread about my close call. I made the same mistake of applying too much rear brake (I know better now) and my rear started sliding left and right at 40mph. Once this happens, DO NOT LET GO OF THE REAR BREAK. Ride it out. Keep your body relaxed and your foot on break until you stop.

This saved me from a very possible highside that day.

[demp]

stock tires are dangerous!

[THE BIG SITT]

Yeah the whole thing will end up being a good learning experience because it'll make me a safer and better rider, but it sucks the big one because it puts my bike out of commission with around 2-1.5 months left to ride. And i've only had the thing for a month

[GeorgiaHooligan]

Glad your ok. Rule of thumb, if you lock the rear keep it locked until you come to a stop. If it regains traction you could get bucked off like a bull rider. I use to lock the rear on purpose when I first started to ride. Once you get the hang of it, you can snake the bike down the road. I dont recommend this though

[GeorgiaHooligan]

I locked up once and slid through an intersection where a cop was waiting to turn out, he went on his way though.

[AlanDog]

A year ago I had never ridden a motorcycle, and seeing these posts makes me realize that my 20+ years riding bicycles (as an adult) has made a difference. You learn to feather and modulate your brakes pretty quickly on a bicycle, whether that's on skinny tires going down a twisty road or going down a gravel trail (very easy to go over the bars)... I did put my rear wheel in the air avoiding a car swerving into my lane, my mind just reacted: BRAKE OR DIE! and I grabbed the front brake hard. I was slightly off center and it threw the tail around when I came to a stop. Just another close call...

Also, I don't have to think about countersteering, I've always been doing it...
although at first I was leaning the bike over and keeping my body upright at slow speed (this reduces your ground clearance and so it is bad...)

So my analogy for cyclists regarding motorcycling: it's like going downhill--all the time!

Sorry for the off-topic drift...