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Old June 24th, 2018, 10:33 AM   #81
snot
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^this
It is a fine line with clutch, throttle and brake. I use the friction zone only on some hills (no brake) to stay on top (1 foot down to hold back). In most cases it is a combo of clutch and front brake with some throttle as I start to go. It takes time, they will teach you ib the course how to use the friction zone.
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Old June 24th, 2018, 11:17 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by danno25nh View Post
You may roll back a tiny bit. Nothing you can do about that until you really get a feel for it.

Partly engage the clutch and add throttle. It's just feel and sound. That whole friction zone thing is more art than science. Don't over think it. If you're rolling back let out a bit on clutch, if it starts sounding like it will stall, add some throttle.

I've got it going from a stop in 4th gear with feathering clutch and cracking throttle. These bikes can recover from newbie mistakes.

Essentially, if the engine is revving high you can let out more clutch. If its bogging, add throttle.
Thanks that's what I was trying to do, I guess I was just not letting out the clutch enough because when I would she would move forward an inch or so and then I think I was getting nervous and pulling the clutch back in so she would roll back. I'll try again next sunday, hopefully it will go better.

I'm used to the rolling back in a car, just not with the weight of a bike between me legs.
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Old June 24th, 2018, 11:23 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by snot View Post
^this
It is a fine line with clutch, throttle and brake. I use the friction zone only on some hills (no brake) to stay on top (1 foot down to hold back). In most cases it is a combo of clutch and front brake with some throttle as I start to go. It takes time, they will teach you ib the course how to use the friction zone.
So you use the front brake instead of the back brake? I think it was the ride like a pro thing that said to use the back brake, that's why I used it. That might have hindered me as well, not really being able to feel how much I was on the brake through my boot.
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Old June 24th, 2018, 12:18 PM   #84
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On hills i use front brake until rear-tyre has enough drive torque to at least overcome gravity. When you feel back wheel starting to pick up bike and lift front end, let go of front brake, add gas, release rest of clutch and go.

Using back brake doesn't let engine torque spin wheel and you go nowhere. In fact, you can be at full-throttle and rear brake will keep rear wheel from spinning at all!
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Old June 24th, 2018, 12:37 PM   #85
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I usually use the front brake with a finger or two while applying throttle too, but it's not hard to start on an uphill using the rear brake, you just have to feather it off as you feather the clutch on. The trouble with it that I don't like is that your right foot is committed to that purpose, so you have to be sure not to get leaning to the right!

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Old June 24th, 2018, 12:40 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
On hills i use front brake until rear-tyre has enough drive torque to at least overcome gravity. When you feel back wheel starting to pick up bike and lift front end, let go of front brake, add gas, release rest of clutch and go.

Using back brake doesn't let engine torque spin wheel and you go nowhere. In fact, you can be at full-throttle and rear brake will keep rear wheel from spinning at all!
Yup. I do the rear brake sometimes but it's significantly more difficult until you have a good feel for the bike
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Old June 24th, 2018, 02:19 PM   #87
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I think only time i use rear brake is when rolling off trailer. Front brake tends to slide going backwards.
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Old June 24th, 2018, 02:33 PM   #88
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It seems like I found my issue thanks to you guys, lol. Note to self - use front brake next sunday
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Old June 24th, 2018, 02:51 PM   #89
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well, after 3 weeks of not getting to practice on my lovely Takara, I hopped on my baby this morning with the hopes of going off of my street. Didn't happen

First off, I could tell it had been a while since my last practice. I stalled her three times from the get go. I think I was a little nervous....Then to make me more jumpy, I had a dumbass in a suv come flying up behind me and blare the horn as they went around. I took a few deep breaths and managed to get her going up my street. I got her into second gear smoothly and made it to the top of my hill. I'm pretty sure I didn't stop her far enough up, maybe a foot or two too early. I couldn't get off of my hill. I'm standing there on her, sweating from nerves and trying to figure out how I was going to get out of the situation. I had my foot on the back break and tried using the friction zone and throttle to get her to move forward but I just couldn't get her going enough without then rolling back and I was getting frustrated. I don't know how I didn't drop her but I managed to get off and turn her around walking next to her.

So, instead I kept her to my street again. On the upside, I found out my new jacket has great airflow I carefully got her going and went down the hill into second gear and then tried downshifting into first, I got it. A tad choppy but I got it. I did that a couple times going up and down the street and then put her away.

A mixed bag today, but again, I think that's because I went 3 weeks without getting on her.

Any tips on getting off a hill from a stop are appreciated lol...
This tells me you are not in a good location to learn to ride. That's not the type of thing you want to happen when learning.

Not trying to be a kill-joy here, but there are too many things going on here that may lead to dangerous situations.

As I said before, I feel you should hold off until you have completed your Basic Rider course.
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Old June 24th, 2018, 03:31 PM   #90
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Glad to see your still determined to work at it, but jkv45's advice to wait till you take the course might be worth listening too. It's only a few weeks away.
Otherwise try earlier in the morning before the jerks are out and about!
My favorite rides are Saturday morning at sunrise. Low traffic and cool temps.
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Old June 24th, 2018, 03:45 PM   #91
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Yeah sunrise! I love seeing sunrise as I cross Bay Bridge into San Francisco!
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Old June 24th, 2018, 04:02 PM   #92
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This tells me you are not in a good location to learn to ride. That's not the type of thing you want to happen when learning.

Not trying to be a kill-joy here, but there are too many things going on here that may lead to dangerous situations.

As I said before, I feel you should hold off until you have completed your Basic Rider course.
i am in a super ****** location when it comes to learning to ride, I figured that out before I started lol. that suv was the only car i saw on my street while i was out this morning. I keep my eye and ears open, I start out on the side of the road, not in the middle of it. while the suv was a fluke, that i didn't notice due to having just stalled her, I'm going to have to be around cars eventually. there will always be a risk no matter how good i get. this morning made it painfully obvious that my lack of practice in the last few weeks led to a loss in muscle memory in regards to clutch and throttle. i need to practice more, not less. i do know that it is only safe to do so on one early morning of the week (sunday), and that is the only time I take her out.

edit to add - and the brc is just going to have me in a flat parking lot. that's not going to give me any help in getting off a hill. you guys are giving me sound advice on that issue. that was the main issue of the morning. from what i've read on reddit with some people that have recently taken the msf, its so watered down these days that they barely spend any time on the friction zone at all. they talk about it, show you how to do it real quick, and move on. won't know if ohio's class is the same way until i get there.

Quote:
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Glad to see your still determined to work at it, but jkv45's advice to wait till you take the course might be worth listening too. It's only a few weeks away.
Otherwise try earlier in the morning before the jerks are out and about!
My favorite rides are Saturday morning at sunrise. Low traffic and cool temps.
I got on her at 6am this morning. It was just getting light out as I was getting her and myself ready. everybody except for dumb suv was still in bed.

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Yeah sunrise! I love seeing sunrise as I cross Bay Bridge into San Francisco!
am i the only one who loves sunsets????? nothing prettier than the sun setting on the beach behind some palm trees.
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Old June 24th, 2018, 04:04 PM   #93
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The instructors at the basic course my daughter took made no secret that they prefer to work with students who have not practiced riding at all. I guess they want to get a clean slate with no bad habits.
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Old June 24th, 2018, 04:16 PM   #94
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The instructors at the basic course my daughter took made no secret that they prefer to work with students who have not practiced riding at all. I guess they want to get a clean slate with no bad habits.
I can understand that, but at the same time if that's how the coaches feel then they need to change the curriculum a bit. from what I've been reading/hearing lately, it's all about just pumping out the classes as fast as they can, not really spending much time on any one thing, just move it along and if you can't do it you can't do it. too bad so sad. the reason i wanted to have at least some feel for my bike before I went is because i get real bad anxiety doing things in front of groups. i wanted to know that i can do this, i can get the hang of this, without that weighing on me.
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Old June 24th, 2018, 04:23 PM   #95
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I'm not saying you're wrong, just that if you don't get to practice much, it may not hurt your performance at the course.

I helped my daughter get a lot of practice before she took the course. I had no idea the instructors felt the way they do, but in any case, I can't see how basic practice with handling the motorcycle can hurt, unless you're somehow doing it very wrong.
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Old June 24th, 2018, 04:33 PM   #96
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I'm not saying you're wrong, just that if you don't get to practice much, it may not hurt your performance at the course.

I helped my daughter get a lot of practice before she took the course. I had no idea the instructors felt the way they do, but in any case, I can't see how basic practice with handling the motorcycle can hurt, unless you're somehow doing it very wrong.
I agree with you. I don't think the little bits of time on my bike are going to impact me in a bad way when it comes to the course. I'm not doing anything so far that they would tell me I shouldn't do. I don't cover the brake/clutch, I'm smooth coming to a stop, I don't put my weight on my arms/wrists or hold the grips tight. as far as I know the only thing different I do besides putting one foot down instead of both, is when I'm practicing at slow speeds I do it in first. I guess they make you do it in second gear, lugging the engine because they say that first gear is too choppy. I'm pretty dang smooth on the throttle in first gear with my girl.
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Old June 24th, 2018, 04:58 PM   #97
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You'll be fine at the course as you are now.

I literally got my temps on a thursday, walked into an open spot in the course on a friday for the classroom part, did the weekend (where I piloted a motorbike for the first time ever) and passed it. I finally got to the BMV by wed/thursday of that next week. Went from a hope and a dream to fully licensed rider in a week.

Easy peasy. You'll do fine.
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Old June 24th, 2018, 05:01 PM   #98
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I don't cover the brake/clutch...
You don't?
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Old June 24th, 2018, 05:07 PM   #99
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You don't?
My first time out, I started out covering them. I quickly stopped doing that after accidentally revving the throttle a couple times. Once I got used to the throttle and brake I just never went back to covering it because every squirrelly situation I had, my hand was on the brake/clutch in the blink of an eye. I didn't even think, I just reacted.
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Old June 24th, 2018, 05:50 PM   #100
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I never operated a bike before the class, too. They will teach you to use both brakes. I don't know where you are reading they just pump out the classes, I had great instructors. They don't have time in a class of 15 to work with each person one on one the whole time, it is a class and done as a class.
The front brake is something you either learn from experience or the track. But, when you are short you need to do somethings differently...like stopping on hills. The samething will apply if you stop on a street that slopes to the left, you won't be able to put your left foot down or use the rear brake.
Another option before the track is the MSF course, they changed the program to help with faster turns and techniques.
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Old June 24th, 2018, 06:01 PM   #101
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I never operated a bike before the class, too. They will teach you to use both brakes. I don't know where you are reading they just pump out the classes, I had great instructors. They don't have time in a class of 15 to work with each person one on one the whole time, it is a class and done as a class.
The front brake is something you either learn from experience or the track. But, when you are short you need to do somethings differently...like stopping on hills. The samething will apply if you stop on a street that slopes to the left, you won't be able to put your left foot down or use the rear brake.
Another option before the track is the MSF course, they changed the program to help with faster turns and techniques.
I'm pretty sure you can't take the actual MSF at all in Ohio now. It's all done through the state. At least that's what it looked like when I signed up for the BRC. Yeah, I just went to the MSF page, nothing for us now. How the class goes seems to be a crap shoot. Hope I get lucky and have great coaches.
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Old June 24th, 2018, 06:26 PM   #102
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I'm pretty sure you can't take the actual MSF at all in Ohio now. It's all done through the state. At least that's what it looked like when I signed up for the BRC. Yeah, I just went to the MSF page, nothing for us now. How the class goes seems to be a crap shoot. Hope I get lucky and have great coaches.
You can take the MSF in ohio, they offer it 15 min from my house, little far from you (100+ miles from Cleveland). I can ask my buddy if they are going to add areas in the future.
Remember, you paid for the class make sure you understand what they are teaching and ask questions if you don't.
Another option:
https://www.ip-ra.com/courses/index.php
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Old June 24th, 2018, 06:40 PM   #103
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You can take the MSF in ohio, they offer it 15 min from my house, little far from you (100+ miles from Cleveland). I can ask my buddy if they are going to add areas in the future.
Remember, you paid for the class make sure you understand what they are teaching and ask questions if you don't.
Another option:
https://www.ip-ra.com/courses/index.php
it's not the MSF. if you go to the state's website now, they have a whole thing for dealers/coaches to sign up and go through their training program to be able to offer the courses. I even put up a 250 mile radius on the MSF site, it gives me nothing but Michigan and West Virginia as the closest.

either way, it's to get my endorsement and I look forward to hopefully learning skills that will help me out.
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Old June 24th, 2018, 06:58 PM   #104
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The one by me is MSF, you cannot get a waver from the program in Ohio (BRC)https://training.msf-usa.org/res/str...cKY55jRg%3d%3d

Ours has a dirt course and a road course...it is at Honda

What you are taking is the BRS from the state.
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Old June 24th, 2018, 08:23 PM   #105
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i am in a super ****** location when it comes to learning to ride, I figured that out before I started lol. that suv was the only car i saw on my street while i was out this morning. I keep my eye and ears open, I start out on the side of the road, not in the middle of it. while the suv was a fluke, that i didn't notice due to having just stalled her, I'm going to have to be around cars eventually. there will always be a risk no matter how good i get. this morning made it painfully obvious that my lack of practice in the last few weeks led to a loss in muscle memory in regards to clutch and throttle. i need to practice more, not less. i do know that it is only safe to do so on one early morning of the week (sunday), and that is the only time I take her out.
Right, I got that. That's my point.

Yes - you will be around cars eventually, but you need to be prepared. That means you know how to operate the cycle without thinking - especially under stress. You need to be able to react quickly and correctly to unexpected events.

It's not muscle memory - it's proper techniques and training - then practice. There are some basic things that you are not doing correctly at this point that are bringing you too close to dangerous situations.

I'm trying to help you stay safe and learn correctly, but I don't think you aren't interested in my opinion - so I'll quit.
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Old June 25th, 2018, 06:53 AM   #106
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What do you mean you can't sign up for it in Ohio? Google "MSF Ohio" and the first link that comes up is what you need to sign up. They even have a breakdown by county.

http://www.motorcycle.ohio.gov/basic_rider.stm
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Old June 25th, 2018, 08:18 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by choneofakind View Post
What do you mean you can't sign up for it in Ohio? Google "MSF Ohio" and the first link that comes up is what you need to sign up. They even have a breakdown by county.

http://www.motorcycle.ohio.gov/basic_rider.stm
MSF no longer gives wavers in Ohio, it is now a separate class. The BRS is part of the state and the BRC is part of MSF. The MSF has added other classes as well. The state no longer supports the revised BRC so it uses the BRS instead.
I spoke with a friend Who is an instructor with MSF and he said they want to focus on helping riders ride better in real situations on the street. This includes turns at speed.
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Old June 25th, 2018, 10:45 AM   #108
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Starting on a hill is a skill for sure. Sometimes I'll put the pegs in front of my boots, and kind of rest the weight on my boots. Sometimes I let the bike roll back that little bit while I get going. Sometimes I use the back brake to keep me in place to get the clutch out that little bit then release it and go.

Try different things and see what works for you.
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Old June 25th, 2018, 02:06 PM   #109
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I sense a lot of determination here. good for you! sounds like you are doing everything you can to be safe in your area. I can understand wanting a little practice before taking the course.

You can simulate the harder launch of uphill in regards to clutch/throttle use on flat ground by leaving the bike in second or third gear when coming to a stop and taking off again. Then all you have to do when on uphill start is add proper timing and modulation of your brake release to the uphill starts.

I hold front brake when stopped and starting on uphills.

on sharp turns and U turns, I have found it best for me to be in second gear, and drag rear brake a little to adjust speed. Then if a little throttle is needed it is not overly responsive.
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Old June 25th, 2018, 02:40 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliGrrl View Post
Starting on a hill is a skill for sure. Sometimes I'll put the pegs in front of my boots, and kind of rest the weight on my boots. Sometimes I let the bike roll back that little bit while I get going. Sometimes I use the back brake to keep me in place to get the clutch out that little bit then release (the brake) and go.

Try different things and see what works for you.
That is what I usually do on an uphill standing start.

@Koala keep practicing. I like where your head is.
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Old June 25th, 2018, 02:57 PM   #111
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Right, I got that. That's my point.

Yes - you will be around cars eventually, but you need to be prepared. That means you know how to operate the cycle without thinking - especially under stress. You need to be able to react quickly and correctly to unexpected events.

It's not muscle memory - it's proper techniques and training - then practice. There are some basic things that you are not doing correctly at this point that are bringing you too close to dangerous situations.

I'm trying to help you stay safe and learn correctly, but I don't think you aren't interested in my opinion - so I'll quit.
I am interested in your opinion. Please, tell me what you think I am doing wrong, so I can reflect on it and correct my behavior.
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Old June 25th, 2018, 03:15 PM   #112
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Try practicing using the friction zone with the front brake (flat ground first, then hills).
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Old June 25th, 2018, 03:18 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by snot View Post
MSF no longer gives wavers in Ohio, it is now a separate class. The BRS is part of the state and the BRC is part of MSF. The MSF has added other classes as well. The state no longer supports the revised BRC so it uses the BRS instead.
I spoke with a friend Who is an instructor with MSF and he said they want to focus on helping riders ride better in real situations on the street. This includes turns at speed.
it figures this crap has to be all confusing lol, thanks for checking that out!

Quote:
Originally Posted by THusker View Post
I sense a lot of determination here. good for you! sounds like you are doing everything you can to be safe in your area. I can understand wanting a little practice before taking the course.

You can simulate the harder launch of uphill in regards to clutch/throttle use on flat ground by leaving the bike in second or third gear when coming to a stop and taking off again. Then all you have to do when on uphill start is add proper timing and modulation of your brake release to the uphill starts.

I hold front brake when stopped and starting on uphills.

on sharp turns and U turns, I have found it best for me to be in second gear, and drag rear brake a little to adjust speed. Then if a little throttle is needed it is not overly responsive.
I might just try that before I try the actual hill again. Do that a few times and then try out what CaliGrrl was saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by allanoue View Post
That is what I usually do on an uphill standing start.

@Koala keep practicing. I like where your head is.
Thanks. I'm going to keep practicing. I know everyone here is here to help, even you @jkv45 ;-) I am open minded to all of it, and am doing my best to absorb all of your tips and understand where you come from when giving the advice you give. At the same time, I have also learned to take what is said with a teeny grain of salt, instead of just running with it. I learned that when told by somebody that has been selling and riding bikes for years (that I would think I could trust their experience) not to even adjust my shifter until I've been riding my bike for a while. If I had followed that advice I would either still be stuck putting around in first gear or I would have already wrecked my bike due to not being able to get my boot under the shifter.

thanks to everyone here for your support, your advice, all of it!
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Old June 26th, 2018, 07:30 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Koala View Post
I am interested in your opinion. Please, tell me what you think I am doing wrong, so I can reflect on it and correct my behavior.
I feel you are just pushing it too much. There are too many things going on to learn safely.

You need a better location to learn and someone giving you step by step instructions on proper techniques.

That's why I have been saying to hold off riding until you can get your training course completed. Trying to do it yourself is just to risky at this point.
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Old June 26th, 2018, 06:18 PM   #115
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MOTM - May '18
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkv45 View Post
I feel you are just pushing it too much. There are too many things going on to learn safely.

You need a better location to learn and someone giving you step by step instructions on proper techniques.

That's why I have been saying to hold off riding until you can get your training course completed. Trying to do it yourself is just to risky at this point.
thank you. you may just be right, even if it's what I don't want to hear.
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Old June 27th, 2018, 06:38 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koala View Post
thank you. you may just be right, even if it's what I don't want to hear.
Riding can be very enjoyable, but it's serious business.

Back when I started riding in the late 70s it wasn't as intense on the roads as it is now. I started riding at 13 on dirt bikes, was racing MX at 15, started street riding at 16, and road racing at 17. I learned most of my skills on the dirt (the hard way), but it has paid off on the street many times. When I was younger I wasn't quite as safety conscious, and came very close to disaster many times. That's where the dirt riding comes in. Learning to bring a cycle back from the edge of out of control is very beneficial, and I still ride on the dirt (and snow) in order to keep my skills sharp. You never know when you will need it.

I would like to see you take the course, but also get some time on the dirt to really learn what a cycle does when it's on the edge.

My 2 boys (18 and 21) had been riding on the dirt since they were about 4, but I still made them drive a car for a year and take a riding course before getting their cycle license.

I know it's hard to do (especially with a new cycle), but go slow and be patient when learning. The consequences are just too high to jump into it unprepared.

We all want you to have a long, safe, and enjoyably riding career.
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Old June 27th, 2018, 01:40 PM   #117
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@jkv45 while I would absolutely love to learn how to ride a dirt bike, I only know one person who has them that could show me the ropes (i think it's going on three months now that he hasn't talked to me, still pissed? who knows), and only know of one place to ride them (no clue how far away it is, pretty sure you have to be a member).

I'm just going to wait until my class, it's only 2 weeks.
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Old June 27th, 2018, 02:41 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Koala View Post
@jkv45 while I would absolutely love to learn how to ride a dirt bike, I only know one person who has them that could show me the ropes (i think it's going on three months now that he hasn't talked to me, still pissed? who knows), and only know of one place to ride them (no clue how far away it is, pretty sure you have to be a member).

I'm just going to wait until my class, it's only 2 weeks.
I bet he's forgiven you by now...

You should look him up. Tell him you want him to teach you how to ride a dirt bike. I think you'd have fun - as long as he doesn't have a 2-stroke 250 or 450 MX bike or something like that.

Guys are suckers when they think they are "experts".
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Old June 27th, 2018, 02:49 PM   #119
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Lol, Jay. I used to live where she's currently at. There really is almost no place to ride a dirt bike publicly without a 2-3 hour drive first.
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Old June 27th, 2018, 03:01 PM   #120
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Lol, Jay. I used to live where she's currently at. There really is almost no place to ride a dirt bike publicly without a 2-3 hour drive first.
They don't have much dirt in Ohio?

It didn't take me that long to find dirt when I lived in Chicago.

Too bad it's not easier for her to get on a dirt bike, I really think it's the best way to learn to ride.
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