why is countersteer explained so poorly?

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by alex.s

how do you countersteer while in a wheelie?

where is jason. i heard he rides the entire race in a wheelie just for fun

Using the gyroscopic effect of the spinning front wheel the simple turning of the front wheel tips the upper half of the bike this allowing you to turn. Or something like but honestly I count my successful moto wheelies as acts of god and I don't try to repeat them.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Samer

J
It just means push forward with your left arm on the left handle bar to go left and push forward on the right handle bar to go right. The harder you push, the quicker you will turn. If you're in a long sweeping turn, the faster you're going, the harder you will have to be pushing throughout the turn.

this is wrong.

unless your tires or bike are totally ****ed, you shouldn't have to apply bar pressure through the whole turn. applying bar pressure changes your lean angle. so you change your lean angle, and then you're leaned over, so you turn. you do not keep putting bar pressure on after your turn-in, otherwise you would keep going down further and further

if your bike wont keep a lean angle without bar pressure then something is wrong with your bike. check tires and pressures

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by alex.s

this is wrong.
............
if your bike wont keep a lean angle without bar pressure then something is wrong with your bike. check tires and pressures

This was discussed here some time ago:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...1&postcount=28

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by jschorr

...for that matter didn't almost every kid lean to do this on there bike? (that is how my wife finally got it)...

Leaning is not counter steering. Counter steering simply initiates or increases the lean. The lean turns because your tires are round. The outer diameter is smaller than the inner diameter, which is why a cone or tapered drink cup turns when you roll it.

The difficulty is in explaining how applying pressure to point your tire left causes a lean to the right and vice versa, but that's easy to understand when you consider that it only works at higher speeds where forces make your front wheel want to straighten. You are making your tire fall over to the other side by pointing it any direction other than the direction you are traveling.

[Samer]

Originally Posted by alex.s

this is wrong.

Really? OK. Show me a video of someone going through a long sweeping turn with no hands on the handle bars.

Motorcycles are stable so they tend to want to go straight. During a long turn, the bike will want to stand up and reduce the radius of curvature that it's on with no change in throttle input. If you think I'm wrong then please show me concrete evidence to the contrary if you have it.

Referencing the Wikipedia page on countersteering; "The sustained steer torque required to maintain steer angle is usually opposite the turn direction"

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by Samer

Really? OK. Show me a video of someone going through a long sweeping turn with no hands on the handle bars.

Motorcycles are stable so they tend to want to go straight. During a long turn, the bike will want to stand up and reduce the radius of curvature that it's on with no change in throttle input. If you think I'm wrong then please show me concrete evidence to the contrary if you have it.

Referencing the Wikipedia page on countersteering; "The sustained steer torque required to maintain steer angle is usually opposite the turn direction"

Simple:
Take a look as any gyroscope that is titled. It stays there as long as the gyroscope keeps spinning.

The problem with your video request is that it would require taking your hand off the throttle and, thus, engine braking mid-turn.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by CZroe

.......The lean turns because your tires are round. The outer diameter is smaller than the inner diameter, which is why a cone or tapered drink cup turns when you roll it....

Originally Posted by Samer

Really?..........Referencing the Wikipedia page on countersteering; "The sustained steer torque required to maintain steer angle is usually opposite the turn direction"

A very thin disc has no outer or inner diameter or applied sustained steer torque and still turns when leaned.
Why?

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Samer

Really? OK. Show me a video of someone going through a long sweeping turn with no hands on the handle bars.

Motorcycles are stable so they tend to want to go straight. During a long turn, the bike will want to stand up and reduce the radius of curvature that it's on with no change in throttle input. If you think I'm wrong then please show me concrete evidence to the contrary if you have it. "

You're off-base here Samer. You very well may have ridden bikes that stand up in a turn, and some of us poor saps have ridden bikes that want to instead fall into a turn once leaned over. But ones with proper geometry, proper tires, with proper pressure, tend to hold lean angle once set with very little, if any, pressure on the bars. Will look for pics to show this in a moment...

[Alex]

Found a bunch of fun no-hands pics, but not sure if they are showing the desired behavior...

[Samer]

Originally Posted by CZroe

Simple:

The problem with your video request is that it would require taking your hand off the throttle and, thus, engine braking mid-turn.

Good point.

I think we can agree that when one applies more throttle, the bike will want to stand up and when less throttle is applied, the bike wants to lean more.

So it stands to reason that there is a sweet spot where the right throttle keeps the bike at a constant angle.

For all real world applications, there would be some "maintenance" torque applied at all times during a turn to maintain turning radius and lean angle. Agreed it is not much if you don't want to change speed.

If one is "accelerating" in a turn, I mean increasing speed, since turning at a constant speed is still accelerating, you definitely need to apply torque to the handle bars in the "countersteer" direction to maintain turning radius and lean angle. I guess I take back the original statement that it is always required to apply countersteer torque during the turn.

Everyone happy?

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Samer

Good point.

I think we can agree that when one applies more throttle, the bike will want to stand up and when less throttle is applied, the bike wants to lean more.

So it stands to reason that there is a sweet spot where the right throttle keeps the bike at a constant angle.

For all real world applications, there would be some "maintenance" torque applied at all times during a turn to maintain turning radius and lean angle. Agreed it is not much if you don't want to change speed.

If one is "accelerating" in a turn, I mean increasing speed, since turning at a constant speed is still accelerating, you definitely need to apply torque to the handle bars in the "countersteer" direction to maintain turning radius and lean angle. I guess I take back the original statement that it is always required to apply countersteer torque during the turn.

Everyone happy?

forget the term maintenance throttle. there is no sweet spot either.
if your technique and machine are functioning correctly, you turn the bike over and gas it and it holds it's lean angle. if not, something isn't right.
on a proper machine i can go from leaned over half way wide open and slowly roll off the throttle (NOT chopping it) and ease into hard brakes without changing the lean angle.
if you do things too fast, your tires deform too much and can push the bike up like a stick in mud. or if you're in heavy braking the rake drops down to the 23s and its very easy to apply additional turn in. does the radius of the turn change with speed? yes. does your lean angle need to change? no.

when leaving a bend, you want to be consistently accelerating. loading the rear tire makes a turn very stable. not continuing to accelerate throughout the turn means at some point you lose that gusto and you're just cruising -- not accelerating. everyone has a different way of saying it, but applying additional gas in a smooth method gets you more of that feeling of being on a rail getting shot around a turn instead of a vague floppy carnival ride. "once the throttle is opened, its consistently and smoothly opened until it is wide open." and then you continue to shift up if you get to redline. on long turns on a 250, you might go through a gear or two.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Alex

those are some very nice counter-steer'ers, right there.

[Samer]

Originally Posted by alex.s

those are some very nice counter-steer'ers, right there.

GIXER? I hardly know her.

Sorry that's what came to mind after seeing this for the second time

[alex.s]

makes you wonder what she's doing with those hands down there!

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Samer

Really? OK. Show me a video of someone going through a long sweeping turn with no hands on the handle bars.
..........
Referencing the Wikipedia page on countersteering; "The sustained steer torque required to maintain steer angle is usually opposite the turn direction"

I couldn't find a video for a long sweeping turn, but if it can happen for a short radius, why not for a long one?

Link to original page on YouTube.

You have found a statement in Wikipedia that cannot be a general rule; hence, it is incorrect.
As Alex has explained, it can be very different for different bikes/tires/pressure combinations.

Originally Posted by Samer

..........If one is "accelerating" in a turn, I mean increasing speed, since turning at a constant speed is still accelerating, you definitely need to apply torque to the handle bars in the "countersteer" direction to maintain turning radius and lean angle.......

In actuality, if the bike is increasing speed in a turn, and the radius remains constant, the lean angle is increasing as well.
This is the mathematical reason:





Please, read this:
http://totalcontrol-news.blogspot.com/

Link to original page on YouTube.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Samer]

Originally Posted by Motofool

You have found a statement in Wikipedia that cannot be a general rule; hence, it is incorrect.
As Alex has explained, it can be very different for different bikes/tires/pressure combinations.



In actuality, if the bike is increasing speed in a turn, and the radius remains constant, the lean angle is increasing as well.

Agreed. I found a paper from University of Michigan that talks about exactly what we've been discussing, namely, a steady-state constant radius turn at constant speed. They predict and measure the steering torque required. It looks like the theory and data are consistent that the magnitude of the steering torque required to maintain a turn goes down with speed. Seemingly to near zero. I guess that's a bit surprising to me. The direction of the torque needed depends on a lot of things, one that they emphasize is rider lean position.

http://bicycle.tudelft.nl/bmd2010/CD...comparison.pdf

"In actuality, if the bike is increasing speed in a turn, and the radius remains constant, the lean angle is increasing as well."

You are correct. I understand that and I simply misspoke. I meant to say turning radius. There is a practical limit to how fast you can go around a particular radius curve for the reason you mentioned. You can only lean your body and your bike so far before you low-side. So there's a speed limit to a turn which is dictated by rider position and bike geometry.

The practical side to this is, the strategy "slow in, fast out" means that you're increasing speed, the 'roll' on the throttle part of slow-look-press-roll, so you'll need to actively apply countersteer in order to maintain your turning radius. In a turn if you simply roll on the throttle with no other input, the bike will start to run wide.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Samer

In a turn if you simply roll on the throttle with no other input, the bike will start to run wide.

Not necessarily. Some bikes run wide when you chop throttle, some bikes run wide when you apply throttle. And there are exactly opposite situations as well. There's alot of "it depends" in the equation, to the point where describing a rule as universal can be disproved with a variety of examples.

[Samer]

By the way, to comment on your videos:

The no hands Yamaha FZ6:

The guy is clearly counter-balancing. He's leaning his body opposite to the turn in order to maneuver tight turns at slow speeds. This is far outside of what we've been talking about. But it's a neat video. Basically he's actively balancing with his body weight while the bike is cruising at very slow speed with no throttle input after being put in a turn. OK.

The hand-free riding video: It's been shown that when a person leans their body with their hands off the handle bars, the bike will eventually lean and turn in the direction they want. But it does countersteer! This is kind of outside of what we've been discussing. but OK.

Maybe we're beating a dead horse here but I think we're proving the point of the title of this thread. The dynamics of a motorcycle/bicycle are complex. They actually can't be described in a simple way. The best we can do is use the equations of motions in the form of a computer simulation to predict what happens under certain conditions. Don't believe me. Here's some light reading for you:

http://rspa.royalsocietypublishing.o.../1955.full.pdf

To quote some of their conclusions: "It only narrowly answers the question ‘how does an uncontrolled bicycle stay up?’ by showing that it follows from the equations. A simple explanation does not seem possible because the lean and steer are coupled by a combination of several effects including gyroscopic precession, lateral ground reaction forces at the front wheel ground contact point trailing behind the steering axis, gravity and inertial reactions from the front assembly having centre-of-mass offset from the steer axis, and from effects associated with the moment of inertia matrix of the front assembly."

[Alex]

Agreed, and sadly, the bicycle examples are simpler than motorcycle examples for a few reasons; one clear one is the effect of suspension action. Depending on chain angle, and for that matter what type of final drive system is on that particular motorcycle, throttle movements (or non movements) affect whether the rear suspension is compressing or extending, which in turn affects the front suspension and steering angle. These can generally be ignored on most bicycles, but it can be very significant when setting up a racebike. That's one of the key reasons racebikes have multiple mounting positions for the engine, to adjust that countershaft location for an optimal chain angle when approaching and accelerating out of corners. Tony Foale has a pretty detailed book that might be interesting for folks that are really into how this all works:

http://www.tonyfoale.com/book.htm

[Samer]

Alex, OK, now I'm really surprised!

We're having an interesting discussion, for me anyway

But I guess we can't reach a consensus on anything today

Using motofool's little diagram, I prefer to look at centrifugal force, which is the apparent force applied outward on the bike in the rotating reference frame when it is in a turn.

So the bike is in a turn, the lean of the bike (weight) is creating a torque, the centrifugal force is balancing that torque, all is well.

Now, we decide to roll on the throttle, i.e. increase speed. Without any input to the handles, it seems clear to me that the centrifugal force increases, again by the equation F = mV^2/r. It seems to me that this increase in force decreases the roll (lean) angle of the bike and vice versa. What am I missing here

[Alex]

You are correct in that looked at as a single body, the increase in speed by rolling on the throttle increases the centrifugal force. But if that increase in throttle causes the rear end to squat a bit, and in turn raises the front slightly, that change in the the weight distribution, steering head angle, and tire profiles can cause the bike to stay on the same line as before. Or a tighter line. Or a wider line. On a perfectly set up race bike, it will allow the rider to get on the throttle as hard as possible on corner exit without running wide, or requiring additional lean angle during that acceleration.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Samer

.........Now, we decide to roll on the throttle, i.e. increase speed. Without any input to the handles, it seems clear to me that the centrifugal force increases, again by the equation F = mV^2/r. It seems to me that this increase in force decreases the roll (lean) angle of the bike and vice versa. What am I missing here

You are not missing anything
Yes, this increase in force tends to decrease the roll (lean) angle of the bike.
If we don't balance the torques via re-adjusting the lean angle, the bike stands up.
We must force more lean angle to re-gain balance and keep turning.

The only purpose of the lean we induce via counter-steering is to counter-balance the tip-over torque of the centrifugal force times the height of the CG.
We precisely adjust the torque necessary to balance that tip over torque (as we constantly try keeping the balance of the bike).

That balancing torque is the weight times the off-center distance of the vertical projection of the CG.
Weight remains the same and the off-center distance or lean angle is all we have to play with.

Please, read this old thread:
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100964

[alex.s]

Samer, the radius does increase as you accelerate. that's why you start to go to the outside of the turn at the exit. you need to know how to manage that.

i dont care how you explain the technical details. they're mostly over my head anyway. but i know how to crash. and adding lean angle once you're down with lots of gas on is a good way to crash. unless you need to trail it in, put the bike down and then accelerate out through the apex and let the bike come up

[Brian]

Since you guys are on the topic, can you watch this video and tell me if the short radius turns he's doing is what to be done at higher speed? Not to confuse anything, but why is stuff like this practiced anyway? It's not something you would be doing on a public road, or the track?

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Samer]

Brian, I think the answer is no.

This came up with one of the previous youtube videos. Going out of the technical discussion, which we can all agree is a nice-to-know kind of thing, but not very practical:

Look at the torso of the guy in your video, it is leaning towards the outside of the tight slow turns. That's counterbalancing.

To answer your question, that's absolutely not what you'd be doing at high speed. You want your body to be either lined up with the bike, or better yet, leaned into the turn more than the bike, starting with your head. The more your body is leaned into the turn, the less lean angle the bike needs for a given turn radius and speed. Think about the lean limit on a bike. The more you need to lean the bike to go through a turn, the less margin you have on that limit. So leaning in the wrong direction, away from the turn, is bad at high speed. I've seen a bunch of videos of people riding "twisted" on a bike during a turn. Their leg on the inside of a turn is hanging off but their upper body is leaning in the wrong direction. Don't do that.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Brian

......Not to confuse anything, but why is stuff like this practiced anyway?...........

To develop a fine sense of balance and visual skills, ....... among other things:

Please, read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymkhana_%28motorcycle%29





An additional reason:

Link to original page on YouTube.

[alex.s]

there are a few situations where remaining straight up and down regardless of bike position is helpful.

splitting in a turn is a big one. low speed is another

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by alex.s

there are a few situations where remaining straight up and down regardless of bike position is helpful.

splitting in a turn is a big one. low speed is another

Less inertia to rolling over !!!

Here are some related Keith Code's posts copied from:
http://www.ducati.ms/forums/11-ducat...h-code-53.html

"In my opinion, the ability to snap the bike into its lean is the single most difficult skill for riders to gain control over and confidence with.

I've done a fair amount of research trying to figure out why that is and I'm still trying to work it out. Meanwhile, I want you to do an experiment for me ......

Do this: When you try to turn the bike quickly, do a few comparison runs for me. Sit up in a 'normal' riding position as you are trying to quick-flick it and compare how that feels to putting your body as low as you can go (chest more to the tank) when you apply the pressure to the bars to turn it.

Do it enough times to get the differences in the feel of it and report back to me about what you notice.

........... As far as hanging off goes, it's often a case of less is more. Less butt off the seat, allows for a stable body position which equals better control and less effort being misdirected into the bars.

Certainly tank grip material, like Stomp, is a huge help in the fight to maintain lower body stability. They are just now coming out with an even more aggressive 'volcano' pattern which you might want to check out.

Rather than trying to focus on how far you are hung off, it's more efficient to focus on how far down and forward you get your torso. At the moment what I see in the photos is a rather more upright position. Don't try to get on the tank but see if you can get half way there."

Counter-steering may be explained and understood poorly, but it is indeed the only effective tool that a rider has to achieve a very difficult and important technique: "the ability to snap the bike into its lean" or quick flick.

Any rider who can complete this maneuver in less than 30 seconds, has reached a respectable level of control over the machine (very useful for street and track riding):

Link to original page on YouTube.

[b.miller123]

Threads like this are the reason why threads like this exist.

[cadd]

Bump.

Countersteer. Either that or his front wheel/axle is about to say FU.

[MrAtom]

Why do people care so much about this in the motorcycle world? Like are there people who ride who have actually never ridden a bicycle fast enough to countersteer it? Because it's really not that fast.

[choneofakind]

^yeah.

I mean, I rode a bicycle long before motorcycles. I think we all did. I was riding roads on my roadie regularly at 14. Countersteering never came to my mind. I just... turned. couldn't explain it.

We all obsess about countersteering because it's a process with an input and an output and it's how you control it. And most of us had an Ah-Ha! moment when we figured it out.

[Ninjinsky]

Some things are beyond words, balancing and steering a bicycle is one of them.
I remember a tennis coaching technique that dumped verbal critisism, you just keep doing serves and don't worry about the bad shots let your body find it's way to optimise.
You learn best when you are not consciously trying.

Countersteering is counterintuitive to the verbal reasoning mind but the body goes straight to it because physical feedback trains faster than mental modelling.


I remember wayback giving a girl her first driving lesson and before we started she said "How do you know how much to turn the steering wheel coming into a bend"?
And that is the problem, we live in a verbal world and people think everything has verbal solutions. Nope.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

^yeah.

I mean, I rode a bicycle long before motorcycles. I think we all did. I was riding roads on my roadie regularly at 14. Countersteering never came to my mind. I just... turned. couldn't explain it.

We all obsess about countersteering because it's a process with an input and an output and it's how you control it. And most of us had an Ah-Ha! moment when we figured it out.

Agreed. Most of us do it without realizing exactly what we are doing, we just...turn. However, when you increase your understanding of how to effectively and efficiently accomplish this TURN then you will be able to do it better, and you won't run into problems in emergency situations.

We have so many students that come to the Superbike school that counter-steer the bike without realizing how they are doing it. When we SHOW them (and we prefer to SHOW them over verbally explaining it to them) then suddenly they can get the steering action done quicker, safer and with more overall understanding. Many times, the steering drill exercise done in the parking lot is the most life changing, ah ha moment they have had motorcycling.

Originally Posted by Ninjinsky

Some things are beyond words, balancing and steering a bicycle is one of them.
I remember a tennis coaching technique that dumped verbal critisism, you just keep doing serves and don't worry about the bad shots let your body find it's way to optimise.
You learn best when you are not consciously trying.

Countersteering is counterintuitive to the verbal reasoning mind but the body goes straight to it because physical feedback trains faster than mental modelling.


I remember wayback giving a girl her first driving lesson and before we started she said "How do you know how much to turn the steering wheel coming into a bend"?
And that is the problem, we live in a verbal world and people think everything has verbal solutions. Nope.

I agree that people can get very caught up in the verbal explanation of something and it becomes quite confusing. I for example have very little understanding of the physics of how a bike counter-steers, but what I do know is how to do it.

For people that have a mind to understand the physics or mechanics of how things work it can be interesting to have these discussions to further your understanding. For people like me, I focus solely on the process of doing over talking about it, and I try to do that with my students. When I teach people how to counter-steer it is done almost without words. I have them do it.

[Motofool]

Twist of the Wrist author Keith Code explains the difference between steering a motorcycle through handlebar input and body lean