Do you use your rear brakes and when?

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by kazam58

I use it when I'm not downshifting. The engine braking on the 250R is plenty. But around town I don't engine brake much, I just pull in the clutch lever, coast to a stop and use both brakes. In the twisties and going faster I'm teaching myself not to use the rear brake at all. It just makes things easier

Originally Posted by Angel-be-Good

I use a lot of rear braking, but never when I'm trying to kill a lot of speed in a short amount of time. It's usually used to modulate speed in a parking lot where my right hand is more concerned with delicate throttle, or bringing it down a notch if I find I've brought my cruising speed higher than I want--generally I find it lazier to apply rear brake instead of stretching my fingers for the front, so if the situation only calls for a bit of scrubbing I'll go for the rear. If I want to stop quickly, like for a stop light, entering a corner fast or to avoid some yay-hoo that pulls in my way, it's almost 100% front brake with a hint of rear.

Originally Posted by Purspeed

Most modern bikes get 100% braking from the front. Think stoppies. The friction of the tires to the road is the biggest factor in reducing braking distance. So, tire technology is key for improvement in braking (other than thermal conductivity in transforming mechanical energy into heat within the brake pads, calipers, floating rotors, etc.).

When you begin to brake (by either squeezing the front or rear brake lever on a motorcycle) weight shifts to the front of the bike. This prevents one from locking the brake.

This is why using the rear brake as a standalone brake is not suggested. It locks far too easy because the weight will transfer to the front of the bike rapidly causing the rear to lock.

So, if you first apply the rear brake, you shift weight to the front (in race applications, you are either accelerating, braking or turning 100%...or a combo thereof), and then apply the front brake now that the weight is shifted.

Some experts argue that you do not need to use any brakes at all (think Valentino Rossi & Keith Code) when corner carving or that braking doesn't give you a net lower lap time. But, for those of us mere mortals, tapping the front or rear brake (I like rear because that is weighted before I begin the braking process) transfers weight to the front and then you can firmly squeeze the front brake for maximum braking potential (engine braking not included).

Any input in the bike can potentially be a destabilizing force (things in motion tend to like being in motion...newton, et all), so being smooth with your inputs is key.

If you are coming out of a turn, the oscilllaitons from the "third" spring (the frame) depending on the material, structure and inherent dampening abilities of said stuff may unsettle the rear (you see this in racing quite a bit...not so much with 250GP though), but this would not relate to braking too much.

The rear is unsettled by friction loss (fore aft) and the tire searching for friction with lateral movements. This happens in both acceleration and braking.

When forcefully braking, using the rear brake can settle things a bit, as well.

Most MotoGP racers do not use their rear brakes, however...69 Hayden does though (and considered a bit strange by that virtue) but that has a lot to do with his roots in dirtbike riding...KEntucky.

Originally Posted by Purspeed

You're correct in that using the front brake will shift weight faster (for several reasons), but most folks do not have the proper skills to do this. Sometimes I get lazy and just use the rear brake to shift weight, that's all.

The oscillations while in the turn including the friction gains/losses to the rear front while maximizing speed, avoiding collision and keeping the guy behind you behind you and avoiding a low side from front or rear slide or highside makes this high speed ballet an interesting one for the bike's chassis.

The chassis design element is the one most complex and misunderstood, even for the world's experts. Since the chassis has no dampening abilities (other than the max loads of the inherent material or design), the tires have to deal with this chaotic load coming out of a turn (in most cases). Braking may help or cause a highside. Some rudimentary traction control devices are being developed to help prevent this.

Nicky is crashing and losing in part because of the electronics. He's fighting them and is not comfortable with them at this time. I hope he sorts this out by next year.

Originally Posted by NaughtyusMaximus

I was taught to apply the rear brake slightly before applying the front, in order to aid with (and forgive me if this is the wrong term) setting the load on the front to shape the tire properly before fully applying the front brakes. I think this fits in with what Purspeed is saying.

Now I know why so many people are crashing!

[HKr1]

Originally Posted by Cedilla

I use the front and the rear combined almost always, except when braking in turns or low speed maneuvers, or loose dirt or gravel, in which case I use the rear only. Im surprised so many people are scared of the rear brake, Im pretty heavy on the rear brake, and I have yet to lock it up. I have locked the front twice and both times were a non-event.

Good luck with that!

[ally99]

Hey Snake. In the MSF course, they taught us if the rear brake locks up to keep the pressure on it, not to release and reapply. We were told to only release and reapply if we lock up the front brake. By releasing the back brake if it's skidding, the bike tries to "fix" itself and the front and back wheels are usually pointed in different directions so it could result in a high side, right? I'm learning here, so forgive me if I've said something incorrectly. That was just how I understood it.
On another note all, I just got back from my practice session. I learned that I enjoy the feel of using the rear brake in normal stops b/c the front end doesn't dive so much. At 30 MPH on my bike, I shaved off a distance equal to 1/2 of a parking spot when using both brakes as opposed to just the front brake. It was a great (albeit HOT) practice session today. Thanks for everyone's advice!

[Snake]

Originally Posted by ally99

Hey Snake. In the MSF course, they taught us if the rear brake locks up to keep the pressure on it, not to release and reapply. We were told to only release and reapply if we lock up the front brake. By releasing the back brake if it's skidding, the bike tries to "fix" itself and the front and back wheels are usually pointed in different directions so it could result in a high side, right? I'm learning here, so forgive me if I've said something incorrectly. That was just how I understood it.
On another note all, I just got back from my practice session. I learned that I enjoy the feel of using the rear brake in normal stops b/c the front end doesn't dive so much. At 30 MPH on my bike, I shaved off a distance equal to 1/2 of a parking spot when using both brakes as opposed to just the front brake. It was a great (albeit HOT) practice session today. Thanks for everyone's advice!

Please do not take my advice as gospel. This is how I feel comfortable and have laerned to ride thru the years. It may not be the right way. Most all of us are giving you our opinions on how we have experienced things.
The best advice I can give you is to listen to the experts at the class. After the class is over you will start to feel more and nore comfortable with the teqniques you have learned.

[ally99]

Thanks Snake! I really do appreciate everyone's opinions. It's so funny how there's obviously not just ONE right way to do things. Thanks so much!

[Snake]

Originally Posted by ally99

Thanks Snake! I really do appreciate everyone's opinions. It's so funny how there's obviously not just ONE right way to do things. Thanks so much!

Also don't forget to listen to the advice of your husband because he above all people has your best interests in mind.
Probably the best advice I can give is not to ride above your confidence level. If you don't feel you are ready for a particular twistie than don't try it or take it at a much slower speed than the others in your group and they will understand and wait up for you. Safe riding to ya.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by ally99

In the MSF course, they taught us if the rear brake locks up to keep the pressure on it, not to release and reapply. We were told to only release and reapply if we lock up the front brake. By releasing the back brake if it's skidding, the bike tries to "fix" itself and the front and back wheels are usually pointed in different directions so it could result in a high side, right? I'm learning here, so forgive me if I've said something incorrectly. That was just how I understood it.

That's exactly what they taught you, and you understood it correctly. The fear is that if the rear wheel is no longer inline with the front when it is locked and sliding along, letting off the rear brake pressure will allow it to start to roll once again, pick up traction, and if the bike is already sliding a little bit sideways that traction may cause the bike to snap sideways and highside. By holding the brake locked until the bike slows completely, it keeps the traction on the rear constant and makes it easier to control the bike, as they probably had you demonstrate in the course.

There's not a thing wrong with any of that advice in a parking lot, but it may not be as applicable on the road depending what traffic is doing behind you. There may be cases where we can slow to a complete stop if we lock the rear. But if we're on a public road with traffic nearby, coming to complete stop may not always be a good idea (or even be possible, without getting clobbered by nearby traffic). I don't know of any experienced motorcyclist who would argue that holding the rear brake locked all the way to a stop is part of their skill set anymore, they've all learned that it is in fact quite possible to let it off, but when doing so you need to be very aware of how far the bike is slewing back and forth, and very gingerly release pressure so that a snap highside is less likely.

MSF is trying to keep people with extremely limited experience from hurting themselves, and that's valid, but just understand that as folks gain experience, each and every piece of advice that may have been applicable at low speeds for a newbie may become less relevant over time. Not because it was wrong, but because as people gain skills they can start to worry about more than the basics, and techniques to control the bike in even wider areas of performance.

[Kurosaki]

Originally Posted by Purspeed

Most modern bikes get 100% braking from the front. Think stoppies. The friction of the tires to the road is the biggest factor in reducing braking distance. So, tire technology is key for improvement in braking (other than thermal conductivity in transforming mechanical energy into heat within the brake pads, calipers, floating rotors, etc.).

When you begin to brake (by either squeezing the front or rear brake lever on a motorcycle) weight shifts to the front of the bike. This prevents one from locking the brake.

This is why using the rear brake as a standalone brake is not suggested. It locks far too easy because the weight will transfer to the front of the bike rapidly causing the rear to lock.

So, if you first apply the rear brake, you shift weight to the front (in race applications, you are either accelerating, braking or turning 100%...or a combo thereof), and then apply the front brake now that the weight is shifted.

Some experts argue that you do not need to use any brakes at all (think Valentino Rossi & Keith Code) when corner carving or that braking doesn't give you a net lower lap time. But, for those of us mere mortals, tapping the front or rear brake (I like rear because that is weighted before I begin the braking process) transfers weight to the front and then you can firmly squeeze the front brake for maximum braking potential (engine braking not included).

Any input in the bike can potentially be a destabilizing force (things in motion tend to like being in motion...newton, et all), so being smooth with your inputs is key.

If you are coming out of a turn, the oscilllaitons from the "third" spring (the frame) depending on the material, structure and inherent dampening abilities of said stuff may unsettle the rear (you see this in racing quite a bit...not so much with 250GP though), but this would not relate to braking too much.

The rear is unsettled by friction loss (fore aft) and the tire searching for friction with lateral movements. This happens in both acceleration and braking.

When forcefully braking, using the rear brake can settle things a bit, as well.

Most MotoGP racers do not use their rear brakes, however...69 Hayden does though (and considered a bit strange by that virtue) but that has a lot to do with his roots in dirtbike riding...KEntucky.

Wouldn't it make more sense to just apply initial pressure with the front brake, then increase the pressure?

Obviously being hamfisted on the brake will result in locking it quick or going over the handlebars but I don't understand why you would need to complicate the braking process by using the rear to shift weight, then use the front when you can just apply initial pressure on the front to shift weight, then gradually apply more pressure.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that's how the front is supposed to be used anyway.

I'm not understanding the reasoning of using the rear to shfit weight in this application unless it's just preference in riding style which is totally fine.

[rockNroll]

I use my rear brake to hold the bike when I'm stopped on a hill and want take my hands off the bike. I used to use the rear brake entering turn 1 at robling road to keep my ass-end aligned and when accelerating over that little hill, entering the back straight at rd atlanta... to keep my front wheel from getting air.

I messed around with trying to steer the rear of the bike into corners with the real brake (like mentioned above with the moto gp riders) but I wasn't comfortable with it. It kinda surprises me that msf would say to stay on the brake after the rear wheel is locked up. Try to steer your bike with a skidding rear wheel... its not easy! Wait.. don't try it on the streets... use an empty lot!

[Alex]

Originally Posted by NaughtyusMaximus

I was taught to apply the rear brake slightly before applying the front, in order to aid with (and forgive me if this is the wrong term) setting the load on the front to shape the tire properly before fully applying the front brakes. I think this fits in with what Purspeed is saying.

I don't believe this to be accurate. Every foot that goes by that you're not increasing pressure on the front brake is a foot that you're not going to get back at the end of the stop. There's nothing that the rear brake can do to help "prepare" the front to begin braking better, that the front can't do on its own even more quickly. What the rear can do is help bring the rear of the bike down a bit to keep the front end from diving quite as much as it would otherwise, but that's only relevant in less than emergency stops when trying to be smooth; not as relevant when we're trying to stop the bike in the absolute shortest distance from high speeds.

Originally Posted by Kurosaki

Wouldn't it make more sense to just apply initial pressure with the front brake, then increase the pressure?

...snip...

I'm not understanding the reasoning of using the rear to shfit weight in this application unless it's just preference in riding style which is totally fine.

Yup.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

Try to steer your bike with a skidding rear wheel... its not easy! Wait.. don't try it on the streets... use an empty lot!

It's actually not that hard, and it does turn out to be easier to control the rear if it remains locked (compared to having it locked then letting off to be unlocked while still moving at good speed; not compared to never locking it in the first place).

[Xuracing]

Both Always

[Jerry]

If you are skilled enough, and alert enough, to use both to their maximum.

I'm no noob, and I'm not sure I'm good enough, even when I'm fully alert...to use both to max effectiveness. I use the front brake only in probably 85% of braking events.

I think this all depends on the rider.

I ride with the front brake 'covered' with two fingers about 95% of the time. Some will say that's a bad habit 'cause I won't get maximum braking without using all four fingers.

FOR ME, I am willing to trade max braking for quicker braking...but I don't really ride in traffic, and rarely over 55. My main concerns are animals, and road debris around blind corners.

I BELIEVE braking sooner is more important FOR ME than max braking power. Additionally, I don't 'cover' the rear brake, so most braking events are over before I get around to touching it.

There are two areas where I do think using both brake is the better option--
Loose wet, or otherwise slippery surfaces
Downhill braking

In my very limited dirt-riding experience, I learned quickly the dangers of using the front brake on loose surfaces. If one wheel is gonna slip--you want it to be the back. On dirt (and tell me if I'm wrong) my braking is done hard on the back and modulated on the front.

Hard downhill braking is something at which I have tons of experience: I ride down a 6000foor/25 mile grade 4-5 times a week. I wear out front tires faster than rear tires!! (and average about 5000 miles on a front Kenda)

I have found that using both brakes in these situations is critical to maintaining both wheels planted. Additionally, going downhill into a hair pin with only the front brake on can get that back tire 'skimming' which is not good.

To summarize my view on this,
I think it is best to focus on using both brakes all the time, so that when the time comes to do some serious slowing down, you are able to get the most out of both brakes.

[kkim]

Originally Posted by Snake

If the rear wheel does lock up you simply release pressure on the rear brake and gradualy reaply for maximum stopping power.

That's not what they teach at the MSF course.

if you lock up the rear wheel at a high rate of speed, keep it locked to better retain control of the bike. By releasing it, you stand a good chance of a high side if the rear is not perfectly aligned with the direction of travel.

For maximum braking during a high speed stop, be very light on the rear brake or don't use it at all. As others have mentioned weight transfer during hard stops can place 100% braking action on the front wheel and can be 0% on the rear. Under normal street riding, maximum braking is never needed except in emergency stops.

[NaughtyusMaximus]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

Now I know why so many people are crashing!

Are you suggesting not to use the rear at all? For the same reasons as Alex?

[Kurosaki]

Originally Posted by NaughtyusMaximus

Are you suggesting not to use the rear at all? For the same reasons as Alex?

I would suggest that people do a LOT of practice with the rear or leave it alone completely.

The rear brake is not something to be taken lightly. (no pun intended lol)



If I remember correctly, the crash statistics for bikes showed a big percentage caused by misuse of the rear brake.


I think in an emergency, the rear is more trouble than it's worth for a majority of riders. This is why I don't touch it at all. I don't want the muscle memory to build up to jam on the rear in a panic stop.


Also, as Alex pointed out, before worrying about how many feet the rear can save you in a emergency threshold braking situation, it shouldn't be forgotten that there's a good possibility the front brake (which is a lot more powerful and effective) may not be near it's threshold yet either. You can squeeze the front on this bike pretty dang hard given you are light on the initial squeeze and gradually add more pressure. At the track, on this bike, I've had the front lever damn near back to the bar without lock up.


The rear brake has its uses for sure but hard braking isn't one of them (for me). Others are different but that's just how I ride.


Eitherway, I would suggest people get to a controlled environment and see just how powerful the brakes are on this bike. It may only be a single rotor, single caliper front but it's got some good bite in it.

[Flashmonkey]

I always use both, but as always I use both progressively. The rear can be especially twitchy if you over use it, but so far the only time I locked up the rear was while i was abusing the rear brake while botching a downshift.

I'm not sure how my habit of using the rear brake will translate onto a supersport (if and when I get one), but so far I find that using the rear brake lightly helps keep the suspension of my 250 from getting too disturbed under hard braking.

Typically, the harder I squeeze the front brake, the more I let up on the rear to allow the front end to dive forward gently. I'm nowhere near skilled enough to be called awesome, but the use of the rear brake is a skill that I think is worth mastering.

[Apex]

It depends on what I'm doing. Certain situations required a different braking method. If I'm coming into a turn and I want to scrub off some speed, I may use the front, or I may use the back. It just depends.

Normal situations, like every day stop and go riding, I use both, even if I am downshifting. It teaches me to practice how I apply the rear brake. It will come in handy when I hit up the track. I like testing myself in different situations...it keeps me on my toes and keeps my brain constantly on its game when I'm riding.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Nickds7

One thing I don't think anyone has brought up is that rear brake, if you must, in a corner is the way to go...

This is terrifying. If it hasn't put you on the ground already, I fear it's only a matter of time. If you are already leaned over in a corner and for whatever reason feel it's necessary to begin braking (even though 99% of the time, adding any brake at all at that point is unnecessary and counterproductive), the absolute last thing one would want to do is add any significant pressure to the rear brake alone. It's exactly what you'd want to do if you are in fact trying to lose traction on the rear of the bike and slide it around as a technique or for fun. Fun at very slow speeds on loose surfaces. Useful at very high speeds on racetracks by highly skilled racers making their bike as wide as possible to counter passing attempts. But other than that, it's just not a good idea at all.

[nate-bama]

if im mid corner and need to scrub off a little speed ill use the rear only, otherwise both

[Apex]

Originally Posted by Alex

This is terrifying. If it hasn't put you on the ground already, I fear it's only a matter of time. If you are already leaned over in a corner and for whatever reason feel it's necessary to begin braking (even though 99% of the time, adding any brake at all at that point is unnecessary and counterproductive), the absolute last thing one would want to do is add any significant pressure to the rear brake alone. It's exactly what you'd want to do if you are in fact trying to lose traction on the rear of the bike and slide it around as a technique or for fun. Fun at very slow speeds on loose surfaces. Useful at very high speeds on racetracks by highly skilled racers making their bike as wide as possible to counter passing attempts. But other than that, it's just not a good idea at all.

I've done that on the 250, slide the back going into a turn. Did it at the track during a parade lap. It was either that or run off the track. I took my chances and pulled it off. Of course I was going INTO a turn, and not in the middle of one. Once you have that bike leaned over, you should actually be rolling on the throttle, not slowing down. You want to maintain that 40/60 (front/back) weight distribution in the corner, or your suspension goes to crap in a heartbeat.

[rage42]

Both breaks every stop, more so the front than the back. If I have a little extra speed I want to bleed off while turning in to a parking lot, or my dirt road, I'll use the rear to control speed I guess.

Without thinking, I was on my front brake the first time turning in to my loose gravel dirt road, that could've ended badly, only slid a little and let go of the brake. Nothing bad happened. So rear break, and slow, the only hard part is slowing down enough for that gravel, and hoping noone is still doing 45mph behind me.

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by NaughtyusMaximus

Are you suggesting not to use the rear at all? For the same reasons as Alex?

Yes

Originally Posted by Kurosaki

I would suggest that people do a LOT of practice with the rear or leave it alone completely. The rear brake is not something to be taken lightly. (no pun intended lol)



If I remember correctly, the crash statistics for bikes showed a big percentage caused by misuse of the rear brake.


I think in an emergency, the rear is more trouble than it's worth for a majority of riders. This is why I don't touch it at all. I don't want the muscle memory to build up to jam on the rear in a panic stop.


Also, as Alex pointed out, before worrying about how many feet the rear can save you in a emergency threshold braking situation, it shouldn't be forgotten that there's a good possibility the front brake (which is a lot more powerful and effective) may not be near it's threshold yet either. You can squeeze the front on this bike pretty dang hard given you are light on the initial squeeze and gradually add more pressure. At the track, on this bike, I've had the front lever damn near back to the bar without lock up.


The rear brake has its uses for sure but hard braking isn't one of them (for me). Others are different but that's just how I ride.


Eitherway, I would suggest people get to a controlled environment and see just how powerful the brakes are on this bike. It may only be a single rotor, single caliper front but it's got some good bite in it.

Amen

[CodE-E]

I use the rear all the time - there's never a time when I only use the front to reduce speed (although the front does most of the work). I only use it lightly to settle the bike a bit at low speeds, to do very light braking in corners when I'm a bit too fast, and to come to a smooth stop when I want to stop.

I always use my rear brake with my front brake.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Apex

Once you have that bike leaned over, you should actually be rolling on the throttle, not slowing down. You want to maintain that 40/60 (front/back) weight distribution in the corner, or your suspension goes to crap in a heartbeat.

Well, sort of. It's been the mantra for years across all types of bikes, and it's what Hough and others recommend for safe street riding. And it's not a bad idea. It basically means that you have your entry speed set well before you even enter a corner, and are all the way off of the brakes before you even initiate the turn. But with the tires, suspension, and brakes that modern sportbikes have at their disposal, it's no longer always the fastest or even safest way around a corner on the track, and it can apply to street riding from time to time as well. Trailbraking can be done up until and sometimes even after the bike is all the way leaned over in a turn, and sometimes you're not back on the gas until well after the apex. Sometimes you need to be on the gas well before the apex. Depends on a number of things, including the particular turn (decreasing radius, increasing radius, double-apex, etc) and the particular bike (what happens to its suspension geometry when more or less brake is applied while leaned over at x degrees, is the bike better off maximizing corner speed or getting an early exit etc). Perhaps this portion of the discussion should be split off into a different thread if people are interested in talking about trailbraking...

[HKr1]

Originally Posted by Apex

Normal situations, like every day stop and go riding, I use both, even if I am downshifting. It teaches me to practice how I apply the rear brake. It will come in handy when I hit up the track. I like testing myself in different situations...it keeps me on my toes and keeps my brain constantly on its game when I'm riding.

No, it wont come in handy at the track.

[kkim]

perhaps a better split for his thread would be for street and track braking techniques?

[kazam58]

Originally Posted by Kurosaki

It's good to use when I'm lazy and want to hold the bike still on an incline.

So maybe never was the wrong answer.


Never while moving.

That's better.

lol, I was just bringing up that ridiculous thread on Kawiforums from a while back. That was highly amusing, and it looked it had given you a headache...

[Rayme]

I don't think braking is all that important (as in over-thinking) if you are a responsible driver, as long as you know the front brake do most of the work, one would realise how it all works out.

Everybody say it's bad to brake in a corner, yes, but on the street at moderate speed when the tires has alot of potential grip un-harvested, a little bit of rear brake won't send you of course and won't slide you out. I do that everyday and I have yet to die front it. We're not all on track and draggin knees everywhere.

I guess I'm just a little pissed that everybody puts too much emphasis on that topic and get on their high-horse "race-track" techniques, when obviously alot of people here are just riding along town. As long as you do everything smoothly, thottle, brakes, turns anyone should feel the limit of the bike.

[tjkamper]

Every time my right hand touches the front brake my right foot is on the rear as well.

Plus If I am in super slow conditions, I will ride the rear break and let the clutch out to friction point and just creep along.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Rayme

I guess I'm just a little pissed that everybody puts too much emphasis on that topic and get on their high-horse "race-track" techniques, when obviously alot of people here are just riding along town. As long as you do everything smoothly, thottle, brakes, turns anyone should feel the limit of the bike.

I don't think that's it at all, Remy. It's not about high-horse racetrack techniques, it's about using the controls on the bike properly. Your point about smoothness is a very good one, and it's exactly on point.

Originally Posted by Rayme

Everybody say it's bad to brake in a corner, yes, but on the street at moderate speed when the tires has alot of potential grip un-harvested, a little bit of rear brake won't send you of course and won't slide you out.

I also see what you are saying here. If there is plenty of grip left, using a little more of that grip will not cause a problem, up to the point of getting to the limit of that grip. That does not mean that choosing to use that grip (adding new braking force in a turn, whether front or rear) is a correct or even relatively safe technique. It just means that it's not a guaranteed crash either, right?

The problem as I see it is that crash after crash with newer riders comes down to poor braking technique. In this case "poor braking technique" means nothing more than when they tried to slow the bike to avoid an obstacle, they were unsuccessful and either crashed right into what they were trying to avoid, or crashed anyway and perhaps didn't hit exactly what they would have otherwise. With better technique, they may very well have been able to stop or slow in plenty of time. As I see it, the two most common reasons for the poor braking performance are:

a. Simply not braking hard enough. Not realizing how much force you can put into that front tire to slow the bike. New riders are too timid with the front brake, and just don't have a feel for how well it can be used to slow the bike.
b. Locking up a wheel, most often the rear wheel, and losing directional control and sliding directly into whatever they were trying to avoid. In many cases the slide is much, much longer than it ever would have been if they had applied better technique before locking up the brakes.

If someone can ride for years and years without ever approaching the traction limits of the tires, either front or rear, then however they choose to use that traction right up to those limits will likely not be a problem, just as you stated (and I agree with you). But I do think that that's a rarity, rather than a certainty, or even a likelihood.

[kazam58]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

Now I know why so many people are crashing!

What's wrong with NOT using it while downshifting? By downshifting I meant when I'm coming to a stop, I'll use my front brake and downshift to slow the bike down. Is that wrong?

[devinjc]

I normally use the rear brake to keep the bike from moving when it's not in gear. Occasionally, I'll use it in some sort of weird experimental fashion... like "oh ****, the front brakes are out I can only use the back brake!" But that's because I get easily bored.

[Kurosaki]

Originally Posted by Apex

Normal situations, like every day stop and go riding, I use both, even if I am downshifting. It teaches me to practice how I apply the rear brake. It will come in handy when I hit up the track. I like testing myself in different situations...it keeps me on my toes and keeps my brain constantly on its game when I'm riding.

For track riding, I would say leave the rear alone for sure.

Even if you like to use it on the street.

[Apex]

Originally Posted by Kurosaki

For track riding, I would say leave the rear alone for sure.

Even if you like to use it on the street.

EDIT:
I thought about this wrong. You are correct in that statement.

The front does such a good job, when used right, can handle much of the load, if not all. Enough front braking results in getting the back airborne, and if rear brake is applied, it locks up. Yet there are situations where the rear can help...like parking the bike in the pit.

I started to really think about how I did my laps at the track, and a few high speed runs on back roads. I found that I did seldom use the rear brake. I actually only grabbed the front, and sometimes trail-braked into a turn using it. I guess it was because I found I upset the dinky 250 when I moved my foot off the pedal and positioned it on the peg. So yes, I was in left field when I made that statement. lol I instinctively only used the front when riding fast, because I was able to be smoother coming in and going out of the turns.

[CC Cowboy]

I'm going back to school. All this information is giving me a headache. Everyone uses the rear brake for different reasons or doesn't use the rear at all.

Why doesn't the bike have an emergency brake (you could use it on hills)?

I thought that hitting the rear brake in a turn leaves a cool skid mark and makes you go sideways and look groovey for the girls. Actually you can do this going straight too.

If you aren't supposed to use the rear brake why do they put one on the bike?

The front brake is so little how could it possibly stop you without help from the rear brake?

If Rossi doesn't use any brakes then I'm not either. You learn by imitating others.

I always drag the rear brake so I don't wheelie. I hate wheelies.

The geo-thermal-nuclear frame design calls for extensive use of the rear brake to slow you down from hyper-space.

I was riding the other day and down shifted and used the engine as a brake. Do you know that you can hit redline in every gear just by downshifting?

I think I know everything but just in case I forgot anything please feel free to help me out with knowledgable replies.

[Apex]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

I'm going back to school. All this information is giving me a headache. Everyone uses the rear brake for different reasons or doesn't use the rear at all.

Why doesn't the bike have an emergency brake (you could use it on hills)?

I thought that hitting the rear brake in a turn leaves a cool skid mark and makes you go sideways and look groovey for the girls. Actually you can do this going straight too.

If you aren't supposed to use the rear brake why do they put one on the bike?

The front brake is so little how could it possibly stop you without help from the rear brake?

If Rossi doesn't use any brakes then I'm not either. You learn by imitating others.

I always drag the rear brake so I don't wheelie. I hate wheelies.

The geo-thermal-nuclear frame design calls for extensive use of the rear brake to slow you down from hyper-space.

I was riding the other day and down shifted and used the engine as a brake. Do you know that you can hit redline in every gear just by downshifting?

I think I know everything but just in case I forgot anything please feel free to help me out with knowledgable replies.

CC with the ninjette wisdom!

[kazam58]

lol, CC, I appreciate your humor, but I was actually looking for an honest answer. I'm well aware that you know how to ride and I respect your opinion. I certainly don't know the half of riding, and I do need to go a riding school. However, my schedule simply doesn't call for it because I have a familial or school event I need to attend whenever there's a class nearby. I've never hit redline downshifting, I'm not racing around the streets. I'm usually at 5k rpm when I downshift, so I never have to rev match higher than 6k rpm or so.
Maybe I should have sent you a pm, but might as well post it by now...

[Purspeed]

Originally Posted by Kurosaki

Wouldn't it make more sense to just apply initial pressure with the front brake, then increase the pressure?

Yes. Under most circumstances provided that one truly controls the squeeze of the front brake.

The best was to come to a complete stop is to apply front brake (light to modest pressure), the squeeze within 6% of lock or so, then taper off. Some choose to apply the rear brake, then squeeze the front within 6% or so of locking the front tire, then taper off the front (not including engine braking). Some even apply the rear brake towards the end as weight evens out (front to back).

I, however, have been in situations (being rough), where the situation + my skill level warranted a touch of the rear to a healthy squeeze of the front whilst engine braking almost to the point of rear wheel lock (actually slowdown, but bigtime slowdown) to get that bike stopped.

That doesn't happen often with me, however.