October 19th, 2010, 06:44 AM | #41 |
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J- I don't know that years of dirtbike riding have been detrimental to my cornering on street bikes. The main thing I had to overcome was wanting to put my foot out in a turn (which I probably would do if riding a Hypermotard or similar bike) Look at RC he is leaning in the turn, rather than keeping his body upright. I can't find the pic but years ago Gary Bailey had a pic from his school of him holding a long stick while standing next to a berm. He held the stick at an angle and the rider and bike had to both be leaned in the same direction to avoid hitting the stick. Possibly in an off camber turn in the dirt you would point your body up away from the lean of the bike while weighting the outside peg. Some also sit up on the outside edge of the seat to push the bike into more of a lean, but RC is a pretty good style to emulate.
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October 19th, 2010, 08:37 AM | #42 |
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I didnt mean that my experience on dirt was detrimental to my street riding. Just that the habit of leaning the bike more while keeping my torso upright IS detrimental to street handling. Your pic is a perfect example of the bike leaning below the rider, which would be bad to do on pavement.
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October 20th, 2010, 09:35 PM | #43 | |
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As you are able to notice, the bike handles better, and uses less of the tire, when you have good body position Cheers! Misti
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October 20th, 2010, 09:41 PM | #44 | |
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As you are able to notice, the bike handles better, and uses less of the tire, when you have good body position Cheers! Misti
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October 21st, 2010, 05:37 AM | #45 |
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Thanks . One of these days I will have to do a track day / track school, but until then it is just reading and reading and doing my best to take it slow and check my progress. I am sure I don't look perfect coming around the bends, but I think markers like making sure I can see my collar / chin in the inside mirror keep me from making the big mistakes.
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October 21st, 2010, 08:40 AM | #46 |
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I have also realized that when I am hanging off the bike, bumps and such actually upset the bike less. This might have something to do with what Misti said about the suspension being able to work better when more upright (and combined with the greater traction available).
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October 21st, 2010, 10:47 AM | #47 |
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I see where getting under the center line and hanging a cheek off the bile helps on sweepers and turns can help my question is do you do this on switchbacks and s turns as well? Is all that weight shifting and sliding on the seat goon to make the bike a bit wobbly and unstable? I do load the inside peg and I keep my knees planted to the tank.
I have yet to shift my butt of the seat as I have been trying to keep my center mass as center on the bike as I can. Trying to make it so me an the bike are one, both going the same way. To visualize it when I am on the bike I act as if my legs don't exist and that the bike is a part of my body rather then me sitting on top of a bike if that makes any sense. Last futzed with by Havok; October 21st, 2010 at 10:49 AM. Reason: Added |
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October 21st, 2010, 11:55 AM | #48 |
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At first it felt awkward to shift my butt in general, let alone for rapid changes in direction, but now it doesnt really feel weird as I slowly get smoother and less comfortable. I actually now find it exciting to move my body around more on the bike. I find myself doing it on everyday, normal-speed turns just for the fun of it haha.
And dont try to shift your butt around until you are plenty comfortable just moving your torso. Because yes, it is easy to unbalance the bike if you dont do it smoothely and in time with every other part of the turning process. Just remember that sticking your knee out, let alone dragging it, is the LAST step in the process of "getting off the bike." Start from the top and work your way down is about the gist of what ive read. Posted via Mobile Device |
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October 21st, 2010, 02:13 PM | #49 |
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I can say that peg weighting depends on how you want the bike angle to be in the turn. And its the same on street, track, or dirt. The only physical difference between dirt cornering and street/track cornering is the fact that you can powerslide in a turn if you want on dirt which has a different type of physical component than keeping the tire in a gripped, traction state. That said, it works like this. When you are on the street, depending on how hard you lean, and how far off the bike you hang, depends on which peg you want to weight. If you're more of a "neutral" rider, in otherwords you lean with the bike just enough to stay straight in relation to the bike in turns, peg weighting is unnecessary. If you hang off a little, then you can weight the OUTER peg to straighten the bike's lean angle, or the INNER peg to increase the bike's lean angle. If you hang off the bike alot when you lean, the same exact physics apply. If you are leaning way off the bike, you weight the outer peg to straighten the bike, or the inner peg to help lean the bike into the turn with you. it is VERY difficult to drag your knee if you weight the inner peg in a turn, but not impossible. It is almost second nature to drag your knee if you're weighting the outside peg (toes on the peg, not center of foot) And of course, all of this stuff is more exaggerated on the track, but does happen on the street, to a lesser degree, in normal street conditions. Pointing the knee is a subconscious attempt to counterbalance your body weight to fight the body's natural urge to lean into the turn. The knee comes out subconsiously in an attempt to keep your body straight up and down while the turn is initiated. If I were you, for now, I would keep both knees on the tank and SLIGHTLY weight the OUTER peg which will cause your body to lean more into the turn naturally, eliminating the need to point the knee in the turn. I would practice going slow(40 or so mph) and keeping both knees glued on the tank, weighting the outer peg and starting the lean just as you start the turn, in one fluid motion. In time, the knee won't EVER come out(much) unless its to drag the pavement.(titanium knee pads are cool for this at night on the street hehe) In time, as you get more comfortable with body lean into the turns, you will realize that peg weighting is more of a second nature action to help stabilize the bike and keep a smoother line in the turns. Assuming you're doing outside/inside/outside turn approach, the peg weighting is usually minimal and only exaggerated in hard, fast turns. Once you are comfortable with leaning into turns, you will see that the inside knee will often not be gripping the tank, but it will also not be pointing into the turn either. it will be further from the tank the further you lean off the bike, but in a natural, non-pointed position. Always stay relaxed at all speeds, even in the turns, as much as you can possibly be while staying on the bike, and you will find that this stuff starts to come more naturally. Bad body position is almost always a result of being too tense on the bike.
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October 21st, 2010, 03:52 PM | #50 |
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I have tried peg weighting, but i cant feel any difference. For a given turn radius at a given speed, the bike leans a certain amount, changed only by how far i am leaning off. The bike cant stand up or lay down more without changing the turn radius. I change how far i am leaning off with my knees and thighs mostly, it feels like. At least, it doesnt feel like it is determined by how much weight i put on each peg.
Or, by "weighting the peg" is the ultimate goal still just moving your weight toward either side of the bike in order to change the bikes lean angle? Because it still doesnt make sense to simply be able to stand up or lean down the bike (whether pressing on the pegs or using any other method) without changing other factors (turn radius, speed, or bodyweight shift). And 40mph can be reeally fast for some turns lol. Posted via Mobile Device |
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October 21st, 2010, 04:59 PM | #51 |
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I'd put the whole peg weighting discussion to the way back of the pile, it's just not the most critical aspect of safely negotiating a turn. It turns out to be helpful in maintaining and gaining traction while exiting a corner (weighting the outside peg) when traction would otherwise be an issue. It does help place the weight on the bike in a better place, and also helps (a bit) in being able to stand the bike up sooner for better traction and better drive. How often is this relevant in street conditions when the tire/bike/rider are nowhere near the traction limits? Who knows.
Weighting the inside peg when entering a turn is not nearly as universally supported. Some racers swear by it, it's a concept that the Spencer school use to spend quite a bit of time on, but many (most) of the other schools aren't as enthused about. This, along with watching any of the top folks in GP, WSBK, and even AMA nowadays completing coming off the inside peg on corner entry shows that whatever it used to help, isn't helping much anymore.
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October 21st, 2010, 05:15 PM | #52 | |
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October 21st, 2010, 06:12 PM | #53 | |
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Can't figure out how to multi-quote right now (won't say why. LOL!), but J has a great point. I, too, have noticed bumps upset the bike MUCH less around corners when I'm hanging off. Great point!
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October 21st, 2010, 06:18 PM | #54 |
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Thanks. Yeah I get that pushing the pegs on way or the other cause the bike to lean more to that respective side. My question is it doesn't seem like this would be possible unless the act of pushing one of the pegs is actually moving the bike independently of your body. Like, if you push the outside peg, it doesn't seem like the bike would do anything unless:
-your center of mass was either pushed toward the inside of the bike by some fraction (allowing the bike to lean outward by the same proportion without changing the overall CoG), OR -by pressing down on the outside peg, you are lifting yourself higher off the bike which gives your weight more leverage against the bike for the same lateral shift, allowing it to lean outward. Is that what is happening? *edit* Actually, if you are sort of hovering over the seat in such a way that your butt can easily move independently of the bike, it would make sense that pushing down on either peg would indeed more readily cause your body to shift to the opposite direction. This would in turn affect the lean of the bike for a given speed and turn radius. *edit* And if this is the case, it is something that will have to weight til later. I am not yet comfortable enough to be lifting my butt off the seat mid-turn :P . Last futzed with by JMcDonald; October 21st, 2010 at 07:41 PM. |
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October 21st, 2010, 07:15 PM | #55 |
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Ok so that answers that, I'll try shifting some around the neighborhood and on my commute to get a feel for it.
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October 21st, 2010, 08:48 PM | #56 | |
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October 22nd, 2010, 05:23 AM | #57 |
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You don't lift off mid-turn. You're already in position prior to starting you lean into the curve. And in an "s", as you upright the bike, you are smoothly shifting your body along with it. The bike is its most stable as you are rounding the apex and coming out of the corner, and your body is just changing directions along with the bike. You, again, are in position for that 2nd corner seconds before you start your lean in.
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October 22nd, 2010, 06:05 AM | #58 |
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Yeah I know there wouldn't be any visible "space" between you and the seat. I am just trying to understand the physics behind this peg-weighting, which is not making sense even to someone about to graduate and start teaching Physics :P .
But, unless your body moves independently and to the opposite direction of the bike, applying pressures to different parts of the bike without changing the total CG could not possibly cause the bike to change angles WITHOUT changing either speed or the turn's radius. This is not that I don't believe you, it is just that I would have a much easier time learning to do this if I fully understood the process. |
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October 22nd, 2010, 07:33 AM | #59 | |
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October 22nd, 2010, 07:36 AM | #60 |
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to further test this, take a spoon and balance it over a small ball or grape or something, and push down with your fingers on either side balancing it. then lift one finger. That side comes up. push it down, it goes down. press evenly, it balances. push with one finger, that side goes down. the other side goes up. regardless of where your hand is. The spoon can't "see" your hand, it can only feel the two contact points that the weight effects. I mean, I think the reason why this is eluding you is because its such basic and elementary physics that you're trying to make it harder in your brain. lol. And when you LEAN your hand from one side or the other, the spoon reacts because in leaning your hand, it naturally pushes one finger harder on the spoon than the other. But, then lean your hand to the right, while pushing down with the finger on the LEFT side, the spoon will balance again. basic basic basic physics.
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October 22nd, 2010, 08:13 AM | #61 | |
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I have a question about weighting the outer peg as you guys are talking about. Is this what Keith Code (or was it Lee Parks?) refers to as "Pivot Steering"? In tight twisties, I tend to relax into my position, and I'm weighting the inside peg more. Just curious. I weight the outside peg in slow speed maneuvers such as U-turns, but on fast, tight corners, I give very little thought to the outside peg. My avatar pic and my profile pic show what I'm talking about.
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October 22nd, 2010, 08:24 AM | #62 |
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Gaaaaa, just scoot over a wee bit off the seat, look through the turn, point your chin, and steer the bike with the bars. It's easier.
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October 22nd, 2010, 08:33 AM | #63 |
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LOL! Jeff, your way is too easy. hehe! Seriously, you are right, but it's a fun discussion to learn the intricacies of cornering form since that is my favorite type of riding! I love when people make me think about my own riding habits too. So hide behind your couch all you want.
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October 22nd, 2010, 08:54 AM | #64 |
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Allyson - Marshmallows at 10', you throw first!
Weighing the outside peg has me miffed. If you are hanging off, how can you weight the outside peg while pushing on the tank with your outside knee? I can see weighing the outside peg when coming out of a turn to stand the bike up a little bit quicker.
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October 22nd, 2010, 09:06 AM | #65 | |
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Edit: Cool! This post gave me postwhore status! Gotta change my signature quotes now. lol!
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October 22nd, 2010, 09:12 AM | #66 |
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October 22nd, 2010, 09:20 AM | #67 | |
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October 22nd, 2010, 09:50 AM | #68 | ||
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October 22nd, 2010, 10:33 AM | #69 | |
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In my brief experimentations with this on the street, putting weight on the inside peg helped initiate turns a little more aggressively, and putting weight on the outside peg helped right the bike. The results are nothing mind shattering mind you, but putting weight on the inside peg probably happens when you slide your butt off the seat anyway...and putting weight on the outside peg probably happens when you shift your butt back onto the seat. It's a matter of how much you want to exaggerate it...and timing...and all that. As mentioned, this is more of a fine tuning thing than anything else. It's fun to mess around with this stuff on a commute, though. |
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October 22nd, 2010, 10:34 AM | #70 | |
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To express this with basic math, if you enter a turn and you are neutral on the seat, and the bike leans 10 degrees, and you then lean into the turn with your body an additional 6 degrees, the bike will straighten up about 3 degrees. Inertia, centrifugal, centrifical, and any other forces will not change that math. The same with the peg weighting. if you weigh 200 lbs, and each foot puts 75pounds of force on each peg and you transfer your weight to one peg, say an extra 5 lbs, it would be 80 lbs of weight on that peg and 70 on the other, which will cause the bike to lean in the direction of the heavy side. It basically tricks the bike into thinking it weighs an extra ten pounds on that side... Again, this is simple physics, and although the momentum and stability of the bike may make this more smooth on a bike and a bit more fluid, it still happens. |
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October 22nd, 2010, 11:23 AM | #71 | |
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What you're not expressing in these examples on the peg weighting side is that the difference from the centerline of the bike to the pegs is not a huge amount. A difference of weight of 10 pounds (80 on one and 70 on another, as you listed) will not make a whit of difference in the attitude of the bike, the lean angle of the bike, or how the bike behaves. It has to be a very significant difference to be felt at all when the bike is at speed. In physics terms, if you took that 10 pound difference and hung it off the end of a 10 foot pole on the side of the bike, now there is some force there.
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October 22nd, 2010, 11:43 AM | #72 |
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LOL! James, now you sound like my hubby. He tells me that a lot. hehe
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October 22nd, 2010, 11:50 AM | #73 |
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October 22nd, 2010, 12:23 PM | #74 |
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IMO most people aren't riding at a level high enough to be worrying about weight distribution between the foot pegs.
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October 22nd, 2010, 03:34 PM | #75 |
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That would be two sentences.
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October 22nd, 2010, 03:38 PM | #76 |
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Agreed.
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October 22nd, 2010, 04:31 PM | #77 |
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I was going to point out that the only reason that explanation is simple is because it is not relevant.
The bike cannot change lean angles for a given turning radius at a given speed without the rider changing his center of gravity in the opposite direction to compensate. If weighting the pegs really just causes the rider to move his weight around relative to the bike (even if he doesnt know this), then yes the end result of "weighting the pegs" is that the bikes lean angle will change. But, if you are proposing that even if the rider's position relative to the bike does not change, while the bike (and thus the rider) itself can be leaned up or down depending solely on peg weighting, then you are proposing a physical impossibility. Posted via Mobile Device *edit* That is to say, it is again all about moving your weight around on the bike. Last futzed with by JMcDonald; October 22nd, 2010 at 05:36 PM. |
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October 22nd, 2010, 05:53 PM | #78 | |
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October 22nd, 2010, 05:58 PM | #79 |
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Re the bmx example is that because the rider's weight far exceeds the bike's? Code says you can't steer a road bike with your feet, though he does say you can with a dirtbike (wicked paraphrased). Not that he is the only answer in town.
Misti - your thoughts? |
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October 22nd, 2010, 06:26 PM | #80 | |
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