When to counter-steer?

[Alex]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaHooligan

I love all of yall! Were like a big family

Fantastic! Can I borrow some money?

[GeorgiaHooligan]

I wouldnt want it to get in the way of our relationship

[GeorgiaHooligan]

Tequillas is one hell of a drug.

[Clearlynotstefan]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaHooligan

YOU dont steer a bike, you push left and lean left to go left, you push right and lean right to go right.

steer/sti(ə)r/
Verb: (of a person) Guide or control the movement of (a vehicle, vessel, or aircraft).

Sounds like steering to me, If you read back further, you would see that I explain countersteering. However, countersteering is still a means of steering a bike.

[Clearlynotstefan]

Originally Posted by Clearlynotstefan

steer/sti(ə)r/
Verb: (of a person) Guide or control the movement of (a vehicle, vessel, or aircraft).

Sounds like steering to me, If you read back further, you would see that I explain countersteering. However, countersteering is still a means of steering a bike.

Wow just read back to all your youtube posts, and "know it all" remarks. Was that necessary, especially considering that I agreed countersteering is what turns bikes, I believe I cited research to support that claim. My point is you DO steer a bike, buy using countersteering. Remember

steer/sti(ə)r/
Verb: (of a person) Guide or control the movement of (a vehicle, vessel, or aircraft).

[exploring/carolina]

Here is the MSF "You and your motorcycle riding tips" page 18 of the
publication:

"When you are riding along the road,
you lean a motorcycle into a turn.
Learning to lean is an essential part of
riding a motorcycle. It is a normal
function of the bike when you are
changing its path of travel – and quite,
quite different from turning the
steering wheel of your car.
To get the motorcycle to lean in a
normal turn, press the handlebar in the
direction of the turn and maintain slight
pressure on that handlebar to take you
smoothly through that particular turn.
In other words: press the right handgrip
to go right; press the left handgrip to go
left. Your instincts to keep the
motorcycle on a smooth path while
keeping it from falling over usually take
care of this without you even noticing it.

(Demonstrate to yourself how a
motorcycle moves by pressing a
handlebar slightly while traveling in a
straight line. The motorcycle will
move in the direction of the handlebar
you pushed.)

Slow down before you enter
the turn; look as far ahead as
possible through the turn.
Keep your feet on the pegs, and
grip the gas tank with your knees.
Lean with the motorcycle; don’t
try to sit perpendicular to the
road while the motorcycle is
leaning over.

Keep an even throttle through the
turn, or even accelerate a little bit".

[Miles_Prower]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle...cycle_dynamics

yes, yes, it's wikipedia, i know, but it does help understand the basics. it gives a brief physics based explanation of dynamics. towards the end, it mentions that more or less, on heavy bikes (i.e. motorcycles), the affect of rider body position at speed is greatly diminished: "effectiveness of rider lean varies inversely with the mass of the bike." This is due to the increase of the gyroscopic force -among other things - from the wheels and overall bike geometry.

It is why you can completely manhandle pedal bikes and why "i can ride a bike with no handlebars, no handlebars..." They are very light compared to our body weight, so our lean greatly overpowers any physics forces created from the bike itself. This does not carry over to motorcycles, especially when traveling at moderate road speeds. Even the Ninjette..it weighs double, or even triple of what you weigh, and goes much faster than a pedal bike (duh!). Holding the tank and leaning your body MAY move the bike a bit at lower speeds, but the only way to reliably get the bike to change directions is to create a torque on the front wheel (via handlebars) to alter the gyroscopic effect and get the bike turning. This is why countersteering is a MUST. This is also why after a certain speed (a few MPH) you can't pull the handlebar in towards you to make direct turns. The gyroscopic forces will cause you to wreck if you pull the handlebars instead of pushing in the direction you want to lean. Hope this made sense.

[Jiggles]

You are 7 months too late with that response

[xSean13]

+1

[Miles_Prower]

lol i know. it just made me feel like i was doing work while at work because i dont have actual work to work on.

[Jiggles]

Finally you got an avatar, I hate people without an avatar

[Kevin2109]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Finally you got an avatar, I hate people without an avatar

me too!

[Jiggles]

I also hate people that don't capitalize their name, lazy ****s

[Miles_Prower]

It took me forever. At first I didn't feel like editing a picture to make it small enough. Then I just didn't give a fux. But I feel a bit more "at home" on the forum so I said, why nots!

[Jiggles]

dude it auto edits it for you lmfao

[Miles_Prower]

I know but I feel bad when the *'s show up haha. I don't curse much in person either, only when playing PS3 really, boy does that make me mad sometimes haha.

edit: well now i feel stupid too, you were talking about the picture. but last time I tried, the picture would show up in the upload area, but it wouldn't appear under my name for some reason. that's part of the reason I didn't bother.

[Jiggles]

Well that makes sense, going into paint and hitting sketch/skew takes a good 15 seconds. Anyway glad you got on top of it. Now make a cool gif avatar!

[Miles_Prower]

if i had someone to take pictures for me, i would make a gif of me eating that guard rail. mmm mm it was tasty.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by Miles_Prower

if i had someone to take pictures for me, i would make a gif of me eating that guard rail. mmm mm it was tasty.

But Miles "Tails" Prower fits your username better.

[folky15]

I'm glad this thread got bumped because there's some interesting discussion here.
This explanation finally helped me understand countersteering (I'm a newbie yet to take the MSF course). Thanks LazinCajun!

Originally Posted by LazinCajun

If the bike isn't leaned when you start a turn, centrifugal force (plus the fact that the center of gravity is off the ground) would mean that the bike would fall over to the outside every time. By leaning, roughly speaking you're using the weight of the bike to balance the centrifugal force that wants you to fall to the outside. Therefore, we have to lean the bike to turn without falling (duh!)

There are 2 ways to lean the bike: countersteering or shifting your weight side to side, where the motorcycle shifts the opposite direction.

Think of countersteering as temporarily unbalancing the bike to cause it to lean. The idea is to use the centrifugal force from a short turn in the opposite direction to create the lean necessary to balance the turn. The centrifugal force in turn depends on a) how fast you're going (faster = more force), b) the radius of the turn (tighter = more force), and c) the mass of the bike+rider (not important for this discussion). The size of the centrifugal forces determines how fast you lean over.

What this basically implies is that at very low speeds, it's a little harder to generate a lean from countersteering: because your speed is low, you need a tighter radius to get the same centrifugal force. This is easy to see in practice -- as you go very slowly, say at a stoplight, you need more dramatic steering motions to stay in balance.

Another take on the same idea is that you have slightly less control from countersteering at low speeds, and therefore body positioning gives you relatively more control compared to countersteering at these speeds. That's why counter-weighting is important to making low speed maneuvers like U-Turns.

Here's a video demonstrating most of this:

Link to original page on YouTube.

[massacremasses]

wow I hadnt read through this before...

i shook my head a lot.

[Miles_Prower]

Originally Posted by CZroe

But Miles "Tails" Prower fits your username better.

it does..i wish i could change it!

[RyderRider15]

Originally Posted by Alex

The Keith Code bike was built to disprove those who discount the reality of countersteering. When using the bars that are fixed to the bike with the duplicate throttle and brake cables, the rider is asked to try and ride the bike like normal, but without being able to countersteer (as the bars are fixed). Body weight is the only thing that can change direction. What people find out very quickly is that it only works at very, very gentle speeds, and very, very gentle turns. When the speeds ramp up to anything approaching normal or faster, it becomes immediately clear that countersteering is not just a nice to have, it's a requirement to initiate the turn.

Also worth noting is even at those slower turns the bike is just counter steering itself from the movements in the bars.

Anyway counter steering is how EVERYONE turns a bike. People who say they don't do it either aren't turning their bikes very much or don't know they're doing it.

I highly suggest twist of the wrist 2, I learned more from this DVD than I did in MSF.

[ai4px]

Despite all the physics involved, I explain countersteering like this... If you want to make a motorcycle turn, you gotta lean. Sure, at a low speed you can move your body to make it lean, but at higher speeds the gyro effect of the wheels will overcome your weight hanging off the side of the bike. So the solution is to make the bike WANT to lean. Since the tires are the only part touching the road, they are the only part that can be FORCED to move left or right. For a high speed right turn, you twitch the handlebars to the left. This causes the front wheel to shoot over to the left... out from under you. Since most of the mass of the bike (including you) is up high, you tend to stay in the same place (left to right). The result is that the bike is nearly instantly leaning to the right. Take a moment and picture this.. you pulled the tires to the left, the top stayed in the same place, it's gotta be leaning. Once you achieve the correct lean angle, you let the handlebars go "neutral". The bike will maintain it's current lean. When finished with the turn, you gotta make it stand up again. Do this by steering into the turn. This will in effect drive the wheels directly under the center of gravity of the bike, undoing the lean.

Wanna see this in action? Stand a yardstick vertical in the palm of your hand. I you want to move right, you have to make the yard stick lean to the right.... and you do that by twitching your hand to the left, causing it to start to fall. You and it move to the right. When you are ready to stop moving, you have to rush your and under the yardstick to make the bottom catch up to the top. Once it is vertical again, you can stop it moving to the right. Yardstick too fast to see this??? try an 8 foot 2x4!!

[Stingray1000]

Great info. Found that i already do it, but good to remember.

[etiainen]

I don't think about countersteering ever. I do it so I can turn. My brain does it w/o me even thinking. Generally I don't put a lot of thought into basic functioning of the bike. I focus more on the road in front of me.

[headshrink]

Funny that this still comes up, but I like the yardstick example... it's really easy for people to visualize without other-thinking it.

[RyderRider15]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWH_QiXw5n4&t=4m15s


know this is a little late but only just found this on youtube

[PsHYk]

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machi...bs-machine.php

nice... =D
read the whole thing...
im new to riding and honestly thats what i thought
that i could just lean and do that but the whole lag
while switching lanes and that i do that but i guess all i can do
is practice...
im still trying to do the knee on the ground thing but ill hit a turn then ill just
feel my sack retract into my stomach...

[dougherty]

im still trying to do the knee on the ground thing but ill hit a turn then ill just
feel my sack retract into my stomach...

Hilarious but I feel ya takes a while to get comfortable

[alex.s]

you should never be "trying" to get your knee down. its a side effect of being leaned over all the way. "trying" to get your knee down means you are probably riding crossed up. if you want better riding posture, work on getting your face low enough to drag on the ground. ( <-- it sounds like i'm kidding but i'm not )

[nickjpass]

I counter steer when I need to. It naturally comes to you. This is what I've learned

[headshrink]

When I started riding in '08, I found that counter-steering was very easy to pickup with very little effort or focus.

Although, now that I think about it, everything was practice, so I was more intentional about EVERYTHING to learn and maintain proper technique. I used to say, "outside-inside-outside" to myself when I setup turns, etc.

However, I do remember a trip down from Tahoe when my arms where starting to get a little fatigued. Then I learned to lean and get out of my seat when I was more aggressive, and found I could have significantly more stamina. When I started I was pretty much planted, and it was all counter-steering.

I remember the ride home from the dealer (first ever). I had heard of counter-steering in the months before, but only because I was doing forum research online for months prior. I asked the dealer how to turn, and he just said, "lean." I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on that, because I think he just didn't want to confuse/overwhelm a newbie, and knew I would do it anyway unintentionally. On the way home I was on a good straight road and thought I would do my own little 'myth buster' experiment on the counter-steering. Just the slightest push, and my bike started to lean in that direction. "HOLY #%#%#@$^," I thought. "THIS STUFF IS REAL." Myth = confirmed.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by nickjpass

I counter steer when I need to. It naturally comes to you. This is what I've learned

note that front wheel control with a spinning rear tire is very different from calm street bike thats no where close to the edge of traction. when your rear wheel is spinning up, throttle control has about as much impact on turning the bike as the bars do.

[nickjpass]

Originally Posted by alex.s

note that front wheel control with a spinning rear tire is very different from calm street bike thats no where close to the edge of traction. when your rear wheel is spinning up, throttle control has about as much impact on turning the bike as the bars do.

I think I know what you mean. On my bike...when ever the rear comes sliding out (best feeling in the world) if you put more throttle, it slides out more...you most likely know this lol I'm pretty sure it's similar on pavement. At least that's what it seems like on WSB and MotoGP lol

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by nickjpass

I think I know what you mean. On my bike...when ever the rear comes sliding out (best feeling in the world) if you put more throttle, it slides out more...you most likely know this lol I'm pretty sure it's similar on pavement. At least that's what it seems like on WSB and MotoGP lol

same deal, but you are dealing with a lot more traction, so the forces you are dealing with (braking forces, acceleration forces) are also much higher than on the dirt. the slightest difference in throttle control makes a huge difference while sliding the rear on the pavement compared to the dirt. especially trying to pull the rear tire back in by closing the throttle a bit. if you are too quick it catches really fast and you go flying off the bike.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by alex.s

you should never be "trying" to get your knee down. its a side effect of being leaned over all the way. "trying" to get your knee down means you are probably riding crossed up. if you want better riding posture, work on getting your face low enough to drag on the ground. ( <-- it sounds like i'm kidding but i'm not )

Alex, you're actually pretty smart. You give great advice (except for your occasional sexist comments! ) hehe!

[sze5003]

What I learned at MSF was just push in the direction you want to go, and bike leans that way, roll on throttle, keep your head looking where you want to go.

I was going nuts the first day with the countersteer "press" directions. I was like wtf is press on the handlebars they are staying stationary. I was confusing press with gripping down on them too hard.

By that time I was told to sit on the bike and act like I have a string in my hands about the width of the handle bars. By press meaning actually move your hands to the side you want to go,making the bike lean over.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by ally99

Alex, you're actually pretty smart. You give great advice (except for your occasional sexist comments! ) hehe!

hahahaha! thanks.

[jboyd12]

Originally Posted by headshrink

Just the slightest push, and my bike started to lean in that direction. "HOLY #%#%#@$^," I thought. "THIS STUFF IS REAL." Myth = confirmed.

I just loled. I love discussing countersteer but there's no point in repeating what has clearly been explained and re-explained in different words by pretty much everyone on here haha. And YES, ITS REAL!!