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Old June 26th, 2014, 07:41 AM   #41
Somchai
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Originally Posted by subxero View Post
^ how much did it cost him?

There is a LW thread here on the forum where some racers have cut some serious weight off the ninja but these are track only bikes and losing that much weight means hacking off brackets, tail section of frame ect... After you get done with the cheap and easy weight reductions you are only left with a few options and the price gets pretty steep.

CF wheels and other bits and Ti nuts and bolts. A Ti axle bolt and nut can cost over $500 alone, all to save no more than a lb.

in short yes, just about anything is possible but you gotta pay to play
I'm sorry Joe, that I can't say what it cost him since I didn't see any informations about that until now, only that he'd stop sometimes because he ran out of money. But pls give me some time to read that all, so maybe I find this infos.
But from what I think also his build infos are worth to look for: http://www.zxr400.de/board/viewtopic...0834&start=555
In the build threat he also describes how to find the right a/f and there are many pictures too.
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Old June 26th, 2014, 08:33 AM   #42
caltony
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Originally Posted by subxero View Post
First don't believe everything you read on Wiki

Second streetable sport bikes under 320lbs are pretty rare
If we ever get the rc390, that would be your best bet, or duke if you don't mind going naked. Aprilia rs125's weigh in under 300lbs, with a good pipe, good tune and if you wanted to dig deep a bore and other engine work they easily make over 30hp. Would be super fun and an awesome track bike. They pop up for sale in Cali all the time. rs250 weights in the 325lb range, if I had the cash I would have one in the stable right now they are often available in Cali. Only down side with those bikes is routine maintenance but it is pretty easy work.

Liteweight sport bikes under 300 lbs with a gal of gas are rare but they are well within the capabilities of a willing mfg.
I have 2 supermoto bikes that are under 285 lbs with a gal of gas. They are fun. However I would be interested in a well made 250 to 400cc sport bike. I already have more than 10 bikes now and I really cant think of anything other than a sub 300lb sport bike(fairings) that would interest me
The ninjas I have now..1 with a carb kit and comp mufflers are fun but they just dont have the speed or performane(brakes and suspension) of the SMs.

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Old June 26th, 2014, 09:15 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by caltony View Post
Liteweight sport bikes under 300 lbs with a gal of gas are rare but they are well within the capabilities of a willing mfg.I have 2 supermoto bikes that are under 285 lbs with a gal of gas. They are fun. However I would be interested in a well made 250 to 400cc sport bike. I already have more than 10 bikes now and I really cant think of anything other than a sub 300lb sport bike(fairings) that would interest me
The ninjas I have now..1 with a carb kit and comp mufflers are fun but they just dont have the speed or performane(brakes and suspension) of the SMs.

Tony
with in capabilities... maybe, worth the cost to your average buyer? probably not

comparing to a sumo is apples and oranges my friend.

1 cylinder, you save probably 20lbs right there between combine engine weight and intake/exhaust parts
light weight spoke wheels easily save a few lbs on a sumo
+ small plastic tank
now start factoring weight for fairing stays + fairings

just those things alone will add up to over 35lbs easy

An MX 450 tips the scales at ~240lbs and that is bare bones no messing around lean mean machine, add ~35lbs for things mentioned above then another 20 for battery, lights, wiring, signals, tach ect... and you end up with an additional 55lbs total putting you at 295lbs and I think that is pretty conservative

Like I mentioned before, you can drop some weight quick with losing material especially for a track bike, BUT when it comes down to the nitty gritty you are going to shell out some serious cash for CF & Ti parts, no way around it.

You want a 300lb performance 4t streetbike of any cc? be prepared to pay some serious cash

keep in mind a 450 mx bike costs close to $8-9k new, left overs can be had for around $7k
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Old June 26th, 2014, 10:16 AM   #44
caltony
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@subzero
Your right in principle but some of your weight calculations are a bit off. Weight of the 250 ninja motor was about the same as the weight of my 450 motors.
The weight of my front ninja wheel with tire was actually 3 lbs lighter than my spoked SM front wheel.

Your weights for mx to plated bike are really off. The weight difference between the GasGas mx and plated ENDURO is 18 lbs.



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Old June 26th, 2014, 11:00 AM   #45
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maybe that's because it is not the weight for a plated mx bike

The weight of the MX bike is used as a absolute minimum weight starting point for bare essentials. ~240lbs Add all things needed for a reliable streetable performance sportbike and you will find it hard to be under 300lbs with out amassing quite the asking price.

there is no way around it. Do you think mfg make their bikes heavy on purpose?

I can see it now
"hey Bob, we could make the same bike 50lbs lighter with out increasing cost but ya know what, lets just make it heavier for the hell of it."

125cc single cylinder 2t streetable sport bikes barely get under 300lbs how are you going to do it with a twin or more 4t? When you figure it out call the big 4 and have a bidding war, you my friend will be a rich man
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Old June 26th, 2014, 11:18 AM   #46
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If only there is a willing manufacturer to research and produce direct or port injected 2 stroke bike, then super lightweight sportbike with enough punch we all dream should be possible, while still economical and passing emission regs.

The technology is there, it's only because all manufacturers has invest heavily on 4 strokes.

I know fuel injection on 2 stroke is vastly different than 4 stroke, e.g how to inject 2 stroke oil into the dry crankcase, keep it minimum to pass emission test, while still prevent the engine seizing up.
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Old June 26th, 2014, 11:51 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subxero View Post
maybe that's because it is not the weight for a plated mx bike

The weight of the MX bike is used as a absolute minimum weight starting point for bare essentials. ~240lbs Add all things needed for a reliable streetable performance sportbike and you will find it hard to be under 300lbs with out amassing quite the asking price.

there is no way around it. Do you think mfg make their bikes heavy on purpose?

I can see it now
"hey Bob, we could make the same bike 50lbs lighter with out increasing cost but ya know what, lets just make it heavier for the hell of it."

125cc single cylinder 2t streetable sport bikes barely get under 300lbs how are you going to do it with a twin or more 4t? When you figure it out call the big 4 and have a bidding war, you my friend will be a rich man
Definately not to be argumentative and this is getting way beyond the purpose of the thread,
But GasGas Beta and KTM seem to been able to plate their mx bikes for an increase in weight of less than 25lbs. The stuff they use is flimsy but it does get the job done.
The ktm spec listed the 450 mx at 230 lbs and the plated 450 enduro at 254 lbs. Not sure what fluids they included but the difference between the 2 is 24 lbs. As I mentioned above the GG difference was less than 20 lbs.

When I bought my 1000 CBR rr it was about the same price as the1000 CBRxx. The xx had nice stuff on it all chromed and Shiney while the stuff on the rr was kind of flimsy. The difference however was that the rr weighed 100 lbs less and all that weight savings didnt cost me any more than the price of the xx.

Tony
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Old June 26th, 2014, 12:05 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silentIm View Post
If only there is a willing manufacturer to research and produce direct or port injected 2 stroke bike, then super lightweight sportbike with enough punch we all dream should be possible, while still economical and passing emission regs.

The technology is there, it's only because all manufacturers has invest heavily on 4 strokes.

I know fuel injection on 2 stroke is vastly different than 4 stroke, e.g how to inject 2 stroke oil into the dry crankcase, keep it minimum to pass emission test, while still prevent the engine seizing up.
I did mention above that the only bike I would be interested in would be a high performane 250.

Thats because in calif you can't plate a 300 cc ktm.

A plated 2 stroke would be nice. I had enough of them when I was younger and I always liked them.
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Old June 26th, 2014, 12:14 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caltony View Post

Definately not to be argumentative and this is getting way beyond the purpose of the thread,
But GasGas Beta and KTM seem to been able to plate their mx bikes for an increase in weight of less than 25lbs. The stuff they use is flimsy but it does get the job done.The ktm spec listed the 450 mx at 230 lbs and the plated 450 enduro at 254 lbs. Not sure what fluids they included but the difference between the 2 is 24 lbs. As I mentioned above the GG difference was less than 20 lbs.
I really don't want to spell this out. We are not even talking about the same things. You are not even in the same ballpark let alone zip code but to entertain your post here we go

A plated MX bike consists of, headlight, taillight, plate bracket, a small battery and minimal wiring, little tach, and maybe some bar end mirrors. There is your 25lbs, that is all. <- this is not the same same as making a streetable sport bike! Ktm specs 450 at 235lbs so a streetable bare bones mx bike weighs ~255lbs

So you are going to add another cylinder or more, extra fuel and air delivery bits, more exhaust piping, fairing stays, cooling fan, additional electrical for signals and sensors ect..., real lights, boat loads of fairings, huggers, a much bigger heavier metal gas tank, bigger heavier rotors and calipers maybe x 2 up front, most likely heavier wheels all with the remaining 45lbs of cap room you have left? ......

Tool kit weights like 5lbs alone... lol

again, you seem to have it all figured out, give Yamy a call

Quote:
Originally Posted by caltony View Post
When I bought my 1000 CBR rr it was about the same price as the1000 CBRxx. The xx had nice stuff on it all chromed and Shiney while the stuff on the rr was kind of flimsy. The difference however was that the rr weighed 100 lbs less and all that weight savings didnt cost me any more than the price of the xx.

Tony
^worth nothing for many reasons and, besides you gave all the answers needed to figure it out.
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Old June 26th, 2014, 12:53 PM   #50
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Meta-comment, but that was an interesting read about bike weight
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Old September 12th, 2022, 06:27 AM   #51
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And what if it ends up being a 300lb 300-450cc bike?
I swear, I don’t own a crystal ball. Of course, the ZX-4R will weight more than that… but it did end up at 400cc for our market and 250cc in others (ZX-25R).

Wish the pics referred to in the old OP were still around.
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Old September 12th, 2022, 10:17 AM   #52
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ZX-4R will be exciting. I rode FZR-400 back in '80s when they came out, so much fun, especially considering rival 600s were in 450lbs+ range. My brother's VFR400R is pretty fun as well.
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Old September 14th, 2022, 05:07 AM   #53
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I don't know, seems like history repeating itself again and we will fall back into the same stupid situations.

Big mfg make small displacement road bikes.... they get a following, lots of people like them, lots of people want more power. Big mfg gives bikes slightly more cc's, people still want more power...... big mfg add more cc's.and now the difference in engine displacement has swung close enough between a few bikes that the slightly less powerful bike doesn't sell as well because people say. "well... why not just get a 600?"

I feel like I would be in that boat. 400 cc isn't small enough to really pull me into that small displacement ring it out kinda vibes, I'm not buying a 400, i'd just go straight for the 600 and want to have something else in the 250-300 range for small displacement enjoyment.

Too bad it seems like none of the 250 IL4's get released in the US.
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Old September 14th, 2022, 05:20 AM   #54
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I don't know, seems like history repeating itself again and we will fall back into the same stupid situations.

Big mfg make small displacement road bikes.... they get a following, lots of people like them, lots of people want more power. Big mfg gives bikes slightly more cc's, people still want more power...... big mfg add more cc's.and now the difference in engine displacement has swung close enough between a few bikes that the slightly less powerful bike doesn't sell as well because people say. "well... why not just get a 600?"

I feel like I would be in that boat. 400 cc isn't small enough to really pull me into that small displacement ring it out kinda vibes, I'm not buying a 400, i'd just go straight for the 600 and want to have something else in the 250-300 range for small displacement enjoyment.

Too bad it seems like none of the 250 IL4's get released in the US.
I absolutely would’ve snapped up a ZX-25R but it seems they weren’t the only ones working on a 250 IL4 so they had to distinguish themselves. Also, it might’ve been a tough sell in a market that also has the Ninja 400.

The displacement creep identity crisis was more about market differentiation too, since it didn’t happen until the other manufacturers started showing up with their 250s and 300s. The ZX-4R is going to be pretty close, but the ZX-6R has been through similar identity crises (636 to 599 and back to 636, anyone?). Some even say they will cancel it in many markets or only offer a track use version, perhaps because the ZX-4R is a bit too close and they’d rather have some breathing room for pricing it.
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