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Old November 9th, 2017, 03:37 PM   #1
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Photo Enforced Tickets - Why They're BS

For anyone on social media, there's been a few videos circulating that talk about why "photo enforced tickets" are actually not legally binding. From state to state theres varying reasons, and varying legalities, however the majority of state have very similar statutes or codes that are lined out similarly to where I live in Oregon.


The following statutes the apply, permit, and limit photo radar enforcement in Oregon are: ORS 810.438, ORS 810.439, ORS 810.441, ORS 810.442. According to both ORS 810.439 and ORS 810.442 which define the parameters being as it states, "A citation for speeding may be issued on the basis of photo radar if the following conditions are met: (A) The photo radar equipment is operated by a uniformed police officer. (B) The photo radar equipment is operated out of a marked police vehicle." Therefore, according to Oregon State Law, any mailed "citation" that doesn't meet those two requirements, isn't a valid citation enforceable by law. This means that traffic cameras that are permanent fixtures, not "(A) The photo radar equipment is operated by a uniformed police officer." and "(B) The photo radar equipment is operated out of a marked police vehicle.", do not meet the requirements to be enforced by law and have any effect on you in any way, other than intimidation and revenue generation. In fact, if you read these Statutes, you'll find another interesting fact that will further prove this in ORS 810.438, section (2), subpart (c), it states, "May not be used for more than four hours per day in any one location." That means that if you see a camera that operates for longer than 4 hours a day, it's not officially enforceable by the law and if only operates for 4 hours a day, and the citation time falls outside of that time then it is also unenforceable. So next time you receive a "citation" in the mail, think, examine, and research before acting.


I posted this along with one of the above mentioned videos, after seeing it doing the research to back it up. As many then pointed out another reason they're not legally binding is that in the U.S., according to the constitution you have a right to face your accuser. Since your accuser has to be a person who physically witnessed you personally (with reasonable suspicion it was you), a camera alone does not count.

If you receive a "photo enforced citation", before even opening the letter, see if its 1. sent from your state or city, 2. if its sent from an official office such as the court. Then when you open it, check who the issuing authority is. Often it says something that sounds very official and could be or sounds like a lawyers office. If that's the case, it's not from a governing authority, and you throw it away. Another thing to look for is the officer who issued it. If there isn't one, you throw it away. Next look for where to respond to, and what the court date is. If there isn't both, one, or any combination thereof, throw it away. A real citation will ALWAYS have a court date and where to show up to that court date.

The long and short of this is that while cities may adopt "photo enforcement" programs, they are literally revenue generation program with no actual legal binding financial or otherwise. In fact until you respond to the mailed "ticket" from these, usually the police force isn't even aware of them. By responding you are essentially "admitting guilt" and therefore no one needs to have physically witnessed you committing the offense.

Basically, cities usually adopt these programs, often with lots of pushback from many areas. They have no legally binding authority behind them, so when they do adopt them they have to work them around the statutes for the state AND city. One way that they make them sound official is they issue press notices, and use local news to have an officer talk about the program and why people should "look out" for these camera's, often saying "an officer personally reviews each and every case" but never mention that the police directly issue the initially mailed "citation". This is a sidestep or sort of loophole that they use so that when a lawyer goes after the case after you respond, they aren't caught on going against basic constitutional laws, and it's that much harder for the case to be dropped.

If you're still skeptical and think you may still get in trouble, the best advice is the moment you receive the mailed "citation", immediately get a lawyer before you respond in any way. Chances are they'll tell you it's bs and to throw it away, or if it does go to court it'll be immediately dropped as long as it's outside of the codes or statutes.

Hope this helps clear this topic up, good luck!
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Old November 9th, 2017, 04:27 PM   #2
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Old November 9th, 2017, 07:57 PM   #3
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A lot of places in S.F. Bay Area have done away with photo-camera tickets. The main problem is these programs are run by 3rd-party contractors. And you're allowed to confront your accuser and examine the evidence in court. So get that attourney and take your case to court. This forces the city to bring out the contractor and all the video. Gets too expensive and costs more than citation. Or they don't show and judge dismisses case. Either way, it's not a cost-effective method. More and more places are getting rid of their cameras.
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Old November 9th, 2017, 08:06 PM   #4
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So... Who's gotten a bunch of these and thrown them out with no repercussions? I remain skeptical.

You may say that the tickets are not legally binding, but they still could be until at least one person fights the system and has the ticket thrown out, setting precedence for future tickets.

Are you saying points are not deducted from your driving record as a result of these photo tickets?
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Old November 9th, 2017, 08:52 PM   #5
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I got one in Hayward about 4-yrs ago and fought it. They didn't pursue and judge dismissed. About a year after that, they pulled all cameras out of Hayward.

My wife got one in Phoenix while visiting sister. They (the contractor) send ticket with photo to our CA address. Wife checked off box that said "that's not me, I don't know who was driving my car that day." and that was it.


BTW, I always fight every single ticket. Had regular attourney for that when I lived in S.B. I got about 50% of them dismissed and remaining got reduced fines. Break-even considering fees, but it keeps my insurance down, points off my record or even lets me keep driving as I've gotten tickets with multiple violations that would suspend my license on that one ticket alone.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/sto...peals/29055365
https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/l...339034242.html

https://trafficschoolonline.com/blog...-camera-ticket

http://highwayrobbery.net
http://www.highwayrobbery.net/redlightcamsticket.htm
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Old November 9th, 2017, 11:25 PM   #6
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Seriously. It's literally brought in for revenue generation, and completely unenforceable until you respond, and even then you can pretty easily fight it. In fact it's so unenforceable that not only is it not legally binding in any way, but the so called "fine" on it by law can't affect your credit score and you can't be held accountable to ever pay it. They'll send letters, make calls, and then eventually just give up, the same way a debt collector works, except there's no debt, and no affect whatsoever on you. Plus as I said before, if you're still skeptical, get a lawyer the moment you receive one before you act at all. Chances are they'll take one look at it and tell you the exact same thing, throw it away. In fact honestly, get a lawyer for really any citation. They usually pay off in the long run.
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Old November 13th, 2017, 11:19 AM   #7
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When I lived in Australia they had photo tickets, but in the NT where I lived a police constable was actively manning the camera system. In our town they had one photo radar unit and they carried it in the back of a green Ford Taurus station wagon. The cops would stop the wagon on the side of the road, get out and set up a tripod with the radar/camera unit on it. It was pretty much like a cop running a regular radar unit, but they didn't have to pull you over and write a ticket while other people sped by, so they could generate more tickets faster.

I've thought that was a much better way to do it than having a for profit company (most of them get a share of the tickets they write) issuing the tickets.

As a side note, I had a co-worker drive through town one day, saw the speed green Taurus, made sure they were going the speed limit. The officers would photograph you as you came towards them, then spin around and get another picture of your car after you drove past. As he slowly went past the constable they spun around like they were taking a photo of his rear plate. He couldn't believe it so he drove around the block and came by the constable again. Same thing happened. He went to the grocery store did his shopping and left. On the way back home went through the speed trap again and same thing happened. He was really upset because he knew he wasn't speeding. 2 weeks later he got 3 tickets in the mail........for not wearing his seat belt.

On the original topic, I found this for Virginia. http://www.schillingshow.com/2010/11...amera-tickets/
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Old November 13th, 2017, 11:29 AM   #8
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Oooohhhh snap. The real question is, what he wearing his seat belt?
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Old November 13th, 2017, 11:44 AM   #9
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I got a photo ticket a month or so ago in Portland. I thought about fighting it, looked into the law, and decided it wasn't viable. There is a cop there, he's sitting in the van watching everyone who goes by, so you face your accuser, and it followed every other requirement. If you don't respond, it's bad. It does come from the city too, not a third party. Finally, I decided that it's not just a cash grab, they allowed me to do a 1.5 hour class to waive the ticket, and it was cheaper than the ticket. It was even a decent class, city didn't get any of that money.

I was speeding too, that's my fault, I could have avoided the whole thing.
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Old November 13th, 2017, 11:53 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NinjaBraap View Post
Oooohhhh snap. The real question is, what he wearing his seat belt?
No he wasn't , clearly visible in the photo was the seat belt buckle above his shoulder.
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Old November 13th, 2017, 10:29 PM   #11
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It’s well known that cities have been using citations as form of taxation to generate revenue. More and more fees have been added on such that the actual fine for your transgression is but small part of total you’ll pay.

http://www.ocregister.com/2010/03/28...-more-like-150
"The additional fees have been added by the state legislature over the years as a way to fund state and county programs and court costs."
If you walk into a CA DMV office, there's a pie-chart on the wall somewhere that shows the breakdown of the sources of their operations budget. Biggest slice of pie? Yep, traffic tickets.

In Los Angeles, they make something like $50-million/year in parking-meter fees. But something like $176-million in parking-fines.
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