New to track

[sakkakth]

Hello all

I've been riding for about 2 years (started in a GSXR 600) an got interested in trying out track. I tried my first time on the 600 and I was intimidated so over this past Christmas I bought a used 2008 250. I've had like 3 track days on it now and I like it better than when I used the GSXR but would love any feedback. My lap times are improving for sure but I did drag my toe on the ground this past weekend which startled me.

The thing I'm finding most frustrating is that I am always the smallest bike out there and the track I go to has 2 decent length straights so I have no other small bikes to kinda gauge myself with.

https://youtu.be/d2ifMb2Q5yo

Can't figure out how to embed it. The youtube tags keep telling me nothing exists.

This is just one lap around but would appreciate any tips that would help me out

Thanks!

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by sakkakth

Hello all

I've been riding for about 2 years (started in a GSXR 600) an got interested in trying out track. I tried my first time on the 600 and I was intimidated so over this past Christmas I bought a used 2008 250. I've had like 3 track days on it now and I like it better than when I used the GSXR but would love any feedback. My lap times are improving for sure but I did drag my toe on the ground this past weekend which startled me.

The thing I'm finding most frustrating is that I am always the smallest bike out there and the track I go to has 2 decent length straights so I have no other small bikes to kinda gauge myself with.

https://youtu.be/d2ifMb2Q5yo

Can't figure out how to embed it. The youtube tags keep telling me nothing exists.

This is just one lap around but would appreciate any tips that would help me out

Thanks!

I am new to trackdays myself, one thing to look at real quick is your account on here, you have your actual street address listed. I would probably edit your profile.

Just as a super novice looking at the video, you look crossed up going into the corners. I am sure some of the other more experienced guys will chime in. Welcome !

[sakkakth]

Thanks I use an autofill app so apparently it works pretty well

[rojoracing53]

[YOUTUBE]d2ifMb2Q5yo[/YOUTUBE ]
........... get rid if this extra space ^

Link to original page on YouTube.

[rojoracing53]

grab a free on site instructor to follow you around and give you some advise in person. most track day riders don't even realize that it's a option or if they do they are too nervous to ask. The only thing i could say your doing that could be potentially unsafe is dragging your toes at this point. it's a dead giveaway that your body position needs work before you run out of edge grip.

Apart from that there really is nothing you doing that you couldn't improve on. I'll let some of the others go into further details but for now have fun and keep doing what you are doing.

[sakkakth]

Thanks for the comment and also how to get the youtube tag to work

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

The only thing i could say your doing that could be potentially unsafe is dragging your toes at this point. it's a dead giveaway that your body position needs work before you run out of edge grip.

I am unsure about body position. I tried to copy what they showed us in the class awhile back but I see in the pictures I point my toe more outward and I guess it should be more inline with the bike....??

[algs26]

They say to scooch your butt before braking/downshifting.

Do you have aftermarket rearsets? I scrape my toes if I get sloppy and leave my foot in place after shifting. If i hike my foot up, my knee will scrape first.

Quick search on YouTube turned up:

Link to original page on YouTube.

What did your class say about upper body positioning? You seem to be staying inline with the bike.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Is that an X-14? How do you like it? I haven't gotten a chance to try mine. >100 degrees here.

Is that Fontana Speedway? Sure got some loooong straights for a 250/300. The camera seems to hide the steep banking.

[adouglas]

Re getting crossed-up...

The butt cam angle can be really misleading. Even Marquez looks a bit crossed-up in the video above.

Having said that, it doesn't look like you're moving your upper body as much as you could. The instructors at my track day org say to really exaggerate... it may feel like you're really far off the bike but you aren't.

Use reference points on the bike, like outside forearm on the tank, gas cap under your armpit, chin pointing at the end of the clip-on. It REALLY helps to consciously relax into the bike.

I don't like Jorge that much, but he has great upper body position... look at how he's in contact with the bike. His footage starts at 0:55.

Link to original page on YouTube.



Note a few things about this photo:

- Outside arm is on the tank.
- Chin pointed at knuckles.
- Spine is parallel to centerline of the bike (not crossed-up)
- Body is rotated so that the center of his chest is pointing at the long axis of the bike (vs at the ground). He's "hugging" the bike and his inside shoulder is low. To do this you have to RELAX and not hold yourself up with your inside arm. Consciously drop the shoulder.

None of this will make a lot of sense until you start going pretty fast. It's like letting your bike drift out to the edge of the road on exit... if you're riding so slowly that the bike doesn't want to do that on its own, it makes no sense. Higher speeds mean higher forces.

Re foot position...

If you get your upper body off the bike more, the bike will be more upright and you'll be less likely to touch your toe.

Pointing your toe is CORRECT. What you need to do is reposition your foot so the tip of the peg is closer to the tip of your toe.

Keeping your foot in line with the bike binds you up. When you get off to stick your knee out, you'll find that keeping your foot pointed forward is not letting you rotate your leg. Try rotating your foot heel-in, toe on the end of the peg and heel hard up against the heel guard (or swing arm, depending on your rearsets). That lets you get your leg out.

[/QUOTE]

[sakkakth]

Originally Posted by algs26

They say to scooch your butt before braking/downshifting.

Do you have aftermarket rearsets? I scrape my toes if I get sloppy and leave my foot in place after shifting. If i hike my foot up, my knee will scrape first.

Ya I have some woodcraft rearsets I replaced the stock with since the person I bought this bike from let the rubber dry rot on the originals.

Quick search on YouTube turned up:

Link to original page on YouTube.

What did your class say about upper body positioning? You seem to be staying inline with the bike.

Ugh yes they did mention to put chin over hand. I felt like I was doing that but since it's all new feeling I guess there is a ways to go, haha.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Is that an X-14? How do you like it? I haven't gotten a chance to try mine. >100 degrees here.

Is that Fontana Speedway? Sure got some loooong straights for a 250/300. The camera seems to hide the steep banking.

Ya I was lucky enough to win a raffle for half off a Shoei so I got the x-14. I like it a lot, its staying in place much better than my 1100 was! my 1100 kept sliding down into my field of view in turns. X-14 stayed put the entire time for me.

Yes that's Fontana. Everyone blows by me on the straights big time, lol. I've never seen another 250 out there on the days I've gone.

Thanks so much for the input!

[sakkakth]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Re getting crossed-up...

The butt cam angle can be really misleading. Even Marquez looks a bit crossed-up in the video above.

Having said that, it doesn't look like you're moving your upper body as much as you could. The instructors at my track day org say to really exaggerate... it may feel like you're really far off the bike but you aren't.

Use reference points on the bike, like outside forearm on the tank, gas cap under your armpit, chin pointing at the end of the clip-on. It REALLY helps to consciously relax into the bike.

I don't like Jorge that much, but he has great upper body position... look at how he's in contact with the bike. His footage starts at 0:55.

Link to original page on YouTube.



Note a few things about this photo:

- Outside arm is on the tank.
- Chin pointed at knuckles.
- Spine is parallel to centerline of the bike (not crossed-up)
- Body is rotated so that the center of his chest is pointing at the long axis of the bike (vs at the ground). He's "hugging" the bike and his inside shoulder is low. To do this you have to RELAX and not hold yourself up with your inside arm. Consciously drop the shoulder.

None of this will make a lot of sense until you start going pretty fast. It's like letting your bike drift out to the edge of the road on exit... if you're riding so slowly that the bike doesn't want to do that on its own, it makes no sense. Higher speeds mean higher forces.

Thanks for the detailed explanation! I will try and be more conscious about this next month when I go again!

Re foot position...

If you get your upper body off the bike more, the bike will be more upright and you'll be less likely to touch your toe.

Pointing your toe is CORRECT. What you need to do is reposition your foot so the tip of the peg is closer to the tip of your toe.

Keeping your foot in line with the bike binds you up. When you get off to stick your knee out, you'll find that keeping your foot pointed forward is not letting you rotate your leg. Try rotating your foot heel-in, toe on the end of the peg and heel hard up against the heel guard (or swing arm, depending on your rearsets). That lets you get your leg out.

Oh that's good to hear because I felt like keeping it inline with the bike would feel really unnatural! I thought I was doing what you explain because I felt like I was bracing the ball of my foot against the peg but I guess I was just leaving too much off from what you are saying? I will definitely try and move my foot back further.

Thanks so much for the advice. Looking forward to trying this next time!

[adouglas]

Originally Posted by sakkakth

Oh that's good to hear because I felt like keeping it inline with the bike would feel really unnatural! I thought I was doing what you explain because I felt like I was bracing the ball of my foot against the peg but I guess I was just leaving too much off from what you are saying? I will definitely try and move my foot back further.

Yes, your photo clearly shows the peg under the ball of your foot. The pic I posted shows the end of the peg under the toes.

Are you putting your heel against the heel guard? That's another good reference point.

My rearsets only have a heel guard on the left. The right side has the master cylinder there, so my right heel winds up on the swing arm. It's pretty freaky to feel it moving....

[sakkakth]

Originally Posted by adouglas

Yes, your photo clearly shows the peg under the ball of your foot. The pic I posted shows the end of the peg under the toes.

Are you putting your heel against the heel guard? That's another good reference point.

My rearsets only have a heel guard on the left. The right side has the master cylinder there, so my right heel winds up on the swing arm. It's pretty freaky to feel it moving....

Nope, never tried to put my heel against there but I have guards on both sides so I will try what you are saying next time for sure! Thanks

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by sakkakth

Nope, never tried to put my heel against there but I have guards on both sides so I will try what you are saying next time for sure! Thanks

something I have found of value since I started track riding this year, is each session focus on improving 1 thing at a time, if you try and "fix" everything at once you will be so out of sorts. Like 1 session I will tell myself, this time I am working on getting my butt off the seat more, and just keep working on just that. Then maybe move to whatever is next on the list. I found when I try to fix 2 or 3 things , i end up worse off than I started. Good luck!

[csmith12]

Well done!!!

I only got a couple of things...

1. Engine braking is a sign that your rolling off too early. Try the no brake drill or build some braking markers that you can move around to minimize engine braking time. Now... don't get me wrong, some corners just need a bit of engine braking to set entry speed. But even on those, ask yourself if better steering and better throttle control would help there.

2. Setting up - The good rule is to get it done as early as possible. Try to move your bum off the seat while your on the throttle vs on the brakes. While not a big deal now, when the speeds start ramping up, it WILL be later. There is no way your gunna drop down in a corner at 90+mph, steering super hard and moving your bum around. The bike will wiggle, simple as that, best build the habit now.

3. Vision is something everyone can always improve on. Watch your turning in and looking in.

Aside of that, Jason has it right, have fun!!! As long as your brain matches your riding, you can take as long as you need.

[sakkakth]

Originally Posted by csmith12

1. Engine braking is a sign that your rolling off too early. Try the no brake drill or build some braking markers that you can move around to minimize engine braking time. Now... don't get me wrong, some corners just need a bit of engine braking to set engine speed. But even on those, ask yourself if better steering and better throttle control would help there.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "no brake drill"?

Thanks

[adouglas]

Ride a couple of laps without using the brakes at all. You can practice this on the street too (you do use the brakes to come to a stop, of course).

If you have a manual transmission car, you may be used to this... using the brakes as little as possible is the most efficient way to drive, because brakes are nothing but devices which convert kinetic energy into heat. That's pure waste. I've been doing this for decades, so when Chris had us do it at the track it was fall-out-of-bed easy for me.

What I find challenging is aggressive braking, simply because I'm so unused to it. I'm all about the smooth... which for now means I'm slower than my friends. Speed will come.

[sakkakth]

Ok, sorry but now I am a bit lost per the engine braking comment. If I don't use brakes per the drill suggestion then won't the engine braking that was mentioned be more? o_O

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by sakkakth

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "no brake drill"?

Thanks

It's hard to present it any better than this.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[adouglas]

Yes... the no-brake drill is about learning throttle control, judging speed and carrying momentum. Engine braking certainly comes into play, but maybe not in the way you think.

If you're really smooth with your throttle, you can minimize or possibly even eliminate the need to engine brake. Remember, the bike will slow down even if you're not engine braking.

Consider the classic front straight with a turn at the end. Using no brakes, you can approach this two ways:

- Stay hard on the gas until you know you need to start losing speed and chop the throttle, allowing engine braking to take over. Once you reach your desired speed, you roll on through the turn.

or

- Start your roll-off earlier and be very smooth and gradual with it, timing it so that you get to zero throttle at the same moment it's time to tip in and start accelerating. That closed-throttle engine-braking scenario is minimized or, ideally, eliminated.

Which one do you think is harder to get right?
Which one do you think is smoother?
Which one gives you more confidence and speed through the corner?

[csmith12]

That is cool too Andrew. Practice your roll off as much as your roll on. We try to never just chop throttle on the track though. When running down the back straight on a supersport with a pinned throttle, rolling off will transfer some weight forward before the brakes take over fully loading the front. Understanding and taking advantage of that initial loading is one of the skills of making the most of really aggressive braking. If you roll off too slowly, it doesn't load the front as much. Each bike can be different though, take a big vtwin vs some race tuned machines. The amount of engine braking may be different and load the front lesser or greater depending on the bike.

[sakkakth]

Ok I think I understand what is being said. I guess I'm currently so focused on getting myself into the correct gear (with engine braking just being a byproduct of that for me) and then applying brake that I never thought of it in a larger picture how it all works together. Certainly not smoothly in my case

I'll play around with that drill and maybe it will click sometime

[Alex]

Great thread.

[sakkakth]

Reading some other similar threads this quote stuck out...

Originally Posted by csmith12

Your goal should be to be on the gas or on the brake. Shifting up or down, should only be to keep the rear wheel in compliance with your pace

One thing I was told at the track was to downshift while braking (but also blipping the throttle). I know currently I definitely get all downshifting done before braking because the 250 seems like it needs such a greater blip than my 600 that I cannot blip and hold the brake at the same time.

My levers are stock so I could definitely get adjustable ones but I'm curious if this is just more difficult in general on this bike?

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by sakkakth

Reading some other similar threads this quote stuck out...



One thing I was told at the track was to downshift while braking (but also blipping the throttle). I know currently I definitely get all downshifting done before braking because the 250 seems like it needs such a greater blip than my 600 that I cannot blip and hold the brake at the same time.

My levers are stock so I could definitely get adjustable ones but I'm curious if this is just more difficult in general on this bike?

I worked on the throttle-blip my last track day, it definitely takes some practice to be able to do it while also on the brakes and get the timing correct. But I could tell when I got it right , the bike felt more settled going into the turn.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by sakkakth

I'm curious if this is just more difficult in general on this bike?

Yes on the 250 (carbed), it takes a larger blip in the throttle, but not impossible on stock equipment. A quick turn throttle should make it feel more like your 600, but carbs will always be carbs.

[sakkakth]

One year later (so maybe like ~6-7 track days in between). I've tried to start implementing much of the advice from here but with so much it's a slow process. I'd like to think there is improvement though! This was my fastest lap of the day but this session I kept dropping out of 4th. User error I'm sure but I don't know what I was doing differently on just that one session yet.... This last time was hot!!! 106 degrees.

Link to original page on YouTube.

Body position is interesting, I feel like in my head I am trying adjustments but then you see the photo and it's like no change at all. Luckily I hear that from others so I don't feel like this is abnormal. I do feel I've been able to get the foot position close to where it needs to be.

I ended up cutting off my kickstand since I dragged it a few months back and found that to be a rather unpleasant experience.

I've been good about keeping a log of every track day so I know where to pick up the next time. I've also been doing what this post suggested. I really enjoyed making this!.. But I'm a data person by nature so I can geek out on that kinda stuff.

(I really just wanted to use that emote)

Thanks for the advice, looking forward to continuing to try an get better!

[empire00]

I have more foot position problems than anything else. You are most certainly not the only one.

[csmith12]

Awesome!

I hear you have got bliping and downshifting down.

The main thing I see 2 main things in your video that will go a long way toward your next goal

1. Turning a looking - Rewatch your videos paying attention to you head and when you turn. Your head turn should preceed your bar inputs. You simply can't judge how hard to push the bar unless you know where you want to point the bike.

2. Turning quicker - related to #1, turning faster is at the core of track riding. Here is something I tell even every rider that I coach, from the greenest novice to the most advanced rider.

"You will never purposely enter a corner any faster than what you believe your skill to steer through it is."

"You want corner entry speed? Learn to turn your bike quickly and get back to the throttle to establish the status quo of stability."

Bonus: More agressive body position takes time and is a product of building up confidence after repetition. Moving your bumm is the easier part, putting your head closer to the tarmac at pace with a good amount of lean is what takes a bit "extra."

Bonus 2: Try slide accross the seat vs lifting your bumm so high off. If your not locked in the saddle and tank, then your holding on with the pegs and bars.

Otherwise, great video, looks like a fun track and I bet you had a great time.

[sakkakth]

Thanks for the tips! I'm interested to try your looking critique, I feel like I look through turns but I hadn't thought much about how you wrote it out and it makes total sense.

I think I should be able to slide next time pretty easily, I appreciate you pointing that out.

I'll try them out later this month on my next day!

[Misti]

Originally Posted by sakkakth

Thanks for the tips! I'm interested to try your looking critique, I feel like I look through turns but I hadn't thought much about how you wrote it out and it makes total sense.

I think I should be able to slide next time pretty easily, I appreciate you pointing that out.

I'll try them out later this month on my next day!

Just to add a little more to what csmith12 said about looking/turning your head BEFORE you turn the bike. At the California Superbike School we call this exercise the 2-step drill because we are separating the looking and turning so that you LOOK into the turn first and THEN turn the bike.

As csmith12 said, this will give you more information about the corner. With more information about the corner before you actually turn into it, you will have a better sense of speed and a better idea of how hard to press the bar to get through the turn.

What I want to elaborate on a little bit is WHAT you should be looking at. When you turn your head and look into the turn first, WHAT should you look at? Should you just look through the turn, should you look at something specific, should you look at the apex?

[Yakaru]

I'll add a bit more to the 2 step/looking info:

Go out on a bicycle or something and look as far down the road as you can at a constant speed. Now look straight down at the pavement. Same speed, but notice how much faster it feels when you're looking straight down?

It's a similar effect with your vision. If you look somewhere sooner then you'll have the time to process what you're seeing and be more sure of where you're going. (There's a caveat though: What happens if you decide to 'see' into turn 4 before you take turn 1?)

But if I decide I want to reach a specific point, get my bike lined up towards it, and have a decent sense of speed/timing of when I'll be there -- I can move my attention on to whatever I want to know about next (which gets to Misti's question)

[DannoXYZ]

For the amount of track time you've done, that's amazing progress!

I've found converting to GP-shift pretty much eliminated all my shifting issues. Calf muscle is way stronger than shins!

[sakkakth]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Awesome!

1. Turning a looking - Rewatch your videos paying attention to you head and when you turn. Your head turn should preceed your bar inputs. You simply can't judge how hard to push the bar unless you know where you want to point the bike.

2. Turning quicker - related to #1, turning faster is at the core of track riding. Here is something I tell even every rider that I coach, from the greenest novice to the most advanced rider.


Bonus: More agressive body position takes time and is a product of building up confidence after repetition. Moving your bumm is the easier part, putting your head closer to the tarmac at pace with a good amount of lean is what takes a bit "extra."

Bonus 2: Try slide accross the seat vs lifting your bumm so high off. If your not locked in the saddle and tank, then your holding on with the pegs and bars.

Last weekend was good. I matched my previous fastest lap several times and then had one lap significantly faster.

I feel like I was able to apply point 1(at least in several corners) but point 2 was mentioned to me by one of the instructors who happened to see me a few laps while teaching some students. So I'll try and focus on that for August.

Getting better:


While I felt like I worked on the sliding across the seat my new video says otherwise, lol!

I did drag my exhaust so that was a bit sad. I was told the turning quicker will help alleviate that... but it did make me tempted to replace the stock.

Thanks all again for the advice

[Misti]

Originally Posted by sakkakth

Last weekend was good. I matched my previous fastest lap several times and then had one lap significantly faster.

I feel like I was able to apply point 1(at least in several corners) but point 2 was mentioned to me by one of the instructors who happened to see me a few laps while teaching some students. So I'll try and focus on that for August.

Getting better:


While I felt like I worked on the sliding across the seat my new video says otherwise, lol!

I did drag my exhaust so that was a bit sad. I was told the turning quicker will help alleviate that... but it did make me tempted to replace the stock.

Thanks all again for the advice

Looking good

SO how would turning quicker alleviate any chance of you dragging exhaust? And how might you go about getting the bike turned quicker? What else can give you more cornering clearance or more available lean angle?

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by sakkakth

Last weekend was good. I matched my previous fastest lap several times and then had one lap significantly faster.

I feel like I was able to apply point 1(at least in several corners) but point 2 was mentioned to me by one of the instructors who happened to see me a few laps while teaching some students. So I'll try and focus on that for August.

Getting better:


While I felt like I worked on the sliding across the seat my new video says otherwise, lol!

I did drag my exhaust so that was a bit sad. I was told the turning quicker will help alleviate that... but it did make me tempted to replace the stock.

Thanks all again for the advice

one question, have you had your suspension adjusted? specifically ride height? that might help with you dragging hard parts.

Question for the other, I got into a habbit of scooting my butt all the way back against the tail fairing when going into a turn, seems from what I have seen/read I should be doing the opposite so I can use my legs to lock in and take pressure off the bars? I notice sometimes my hands really hurt. I know I am gripping the bars too hard. just trying to determine if I should be closer to the tank.

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by daverdfw

Question for the other, I got into a habbit of scooting my butt all the way back against the tail fairing when going into a turn, seems from what I have seen/read I should be doing the opposite so I can use my legs to lock in and take pressure off the bars? I notice sometimes my hands really hurt. I know I am gripping the bars too hard. just trying to determine if I should be closer to the tank.

So... your point of reference is feeling the tail section on your buttox? I call that connection/reference, soft parts (human) to hard parts (bike). While that reference may need optimized, imho... it's a great thing to consider.

Let's change that to reference to your knee locked onto the tank for the greatest support. Doing so may put your bumm all the way back, or it may not. Ya know????

If you don't have a good lock on the tank or hanging off too much you are putting pressure in other areas. Any idea what those areas could be and how may that relate to your other issue? I am gunnin' for you to think "cause and effect here".

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by csmith12

So... your point of reference is feeling the tail section on your buttox? I call that connection/reference, soft parts (human) to hard parts (bike). While that reference may need optimized, imho... it's a great thing to consider.

Let's change that to reference to your knee locked onto the tank for the greatest support. Doing so may put your bumm all the way back, or it may not. Ya know????

If you don't have a good lock on the tank or hanging off too much you are putting pressure in other areas. Any idea what those areas could be and how may that relate to your other issue? I am gunnin' for you to think "cause and effect here".

I am not sure why I started doing it. Im a bigger guy. 6'0 220lb so when I move on this bike it moves around. I have a track day saturday, perhaps I will try just staying closer to the tank and hook my knee in.

[csmith12]

David, to put it bluntly... your rider weight is not an issue. I rode with a racer pushing 268lbs+ and nearly as a fast as I am. Don't limit yourself out of the gate with that kind of thinking.

There is also a 80/90% fix for the bike moving around when you do to. Do you think making your saddle movements while on the gas vs on the brake will make any difference? Also, it has something to do with your issue above too.

EDIT: when pushing around 200lbs with a real good pace, 250's will flex/wobble and move around no matter what. It's just the nature of the bike at pace with weight. We aint 13yr olds that weigh 120lbs wet. lol

[daverdfw]

Originally Posted by csmith12

David, to put it bluntly... your rider weight is not an issue. I rode with a racer pushing 268lbs+ and nearly as a fast as I am. Don't limit yourself out of the gate with that kind of thinking.

There is also a 80/90% fix for the bike moving around when you do to. Do you think making your saddle movements while on the gas vs on the brake will make any difference? Also, it has something to do with your issue above too.

Here is a video of me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJyFXchEz9s

I would try to move before starting my braking as to not upset the bike loading up the front suspension under braking. I feel like I am probably not locked in with my legs and am relying on my arms to hold on to the bike therefore putting input into the bars when its not needed/helpful

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by csmith12

We aint 13yr olds that weigh 120lbs wet. lol

Speak for yourself