Track vs. Canyon riding

[Jinx250]

Originally Posted by "A"

Common misconception is that track riding is about riding at or beyond the street legal limits.. IMO, it has more to do with learning the performance and skill limits of yourself and your vehicle, being smooth as silk doing so. Which can be done in most controlled space that allow plenty of run-off, a large empty parking lot or office mall that has no traffic on weekends would do.

That's not misconception, it's fact. Google Earth me a shot (in the 818 area code) of a parking lot where it would be possible to practice 90MPH sweepers, or a road sutiable for doing so. That also happens to have:

no lines or lane markings
medical assistance on site (response time of less than 2 minutes)


The "fact" you've done "more track time than most" and find it overrated is not relevant to how inappropriate it is to ride on the streets like one would at the track. A track day, by definition, is hte time and place to do those things we all wanted to do on the street but didn't (or shouldn't) because they're unsafe, not to mention illegal.

["A"]

Originally Posted by Jinx250

That's not misconception, it's fact. Google Earth me a shot (in the 818 area code) of a parking lot where it would be possible to practice 90MPH sweepers, or a road sutiable for doing so. That also happens to have:

no lines or lane markings
medical assistance on site (response time of less than 2 minutes)

Sucks to live where you're at then.

Originally Posted by Jinx250

The "fact" you've done "more track time than most" and find it overrated is not relevant to how inappropriate it is to ride on the streets like one would at the track.

And you can be the judge of this 'fact' because?

Originally Posted by Jinx250

A track day, by definition, is hte time and place to do those things we all wanted to do on the street but didn't (or shouldn't) because they're unsafe, not to mention illegal.

By who's definition? please supply a source.

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by Jinx250

That was an answer to the original question.

Personally, after doing some track time, I find myself enjoying the canyons more, since I know exactly how much faster I could take the roads if I chose to do so. Instead, I put along at the speed limit (55 in most places) and just enjoy the freedom of being in hte wind on 2 wheels. It's kind of liberating actually.

I am finding that also. After riding on the track, I now know that I can take any given corner at a rate that is quite a bit faster that the posted speed limit. However, I do not feel comfortable doing so due to the surprises that can crop up on a public road due to road surface conditions, sight lines, and opposing traffic. On the flip side, I now am confident that I can handle those conditions with a great deal more skill.

Regarding parking lots: No comparison to the track. Parking lots have tons of oil from parked cars, no medical assistance, trash and broken glass laying around. Ususally they are private property and I would assume that you could get kicked off by the owners and any given moment.

Track riding and taking it to the road not parking lot riding and taking it to the road. Thank you.

Jeff

["A"]

Originally Posted by JeffM

I am finding that also. After riding on the track, I now know that I can take any given corner at a rate that is quite a bit faster that the posted speed limit. However, I do not feel comfortable doing so due to the surprises that can crop up on a public road due to road surface conditions, sight lines, and opposing traffic. On the flip side, I now am confident that I can handle those conditions with a great deal more skill.

Regarding parking lots: No comparison to the track. Parking lots have tons of oil from parked cars, no medical assistance, trash and broken glass laying around. Ususally they are private property and I would assume that you could get kicked off by the owners and any given moment.

Track riding and taking it to the road not parking lot riding and taking it to the road. Thank you.

Jeff

I did specify 'empty' parking lot,

I did specify 'crashing is not an option',

does anyone read anymore?

You get kick off from property if you loose control and have an incident that involve ambulance or LEO.

[JeffM]

I believe you forgot to read this:

Originally Posted by JeffM

Track riding and taking it to the road not parking lot riding and taking it to the road. Thank you.

Thanks, Jeff

["A"]

Originally Posted by JeffM

I believe you forgot to read this:



Thanks, Jeff

Oh I read it alright, but I needed to clarify some inability to read in detail on your part when you consider riding in parking lot with cars parked in it.. along with your need for ambulance.. both of which were not criteria specified in my previous posts.

As long as you realize that your concerns about 'track style riding' do not apply to my specified conditions in empty parking lots and without any crashes.

Yes, track riding can be exciting, you can learn a ton, but it is not necessary to most practical way to learn riding skills nor is it the safest for everyone.

[JeffM]

Sigh ,

Parking lots have tons of oil from parked cars, no medical assistance, trash and broken glass laying around.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by "A"

Yes, track riding can be exciting, you can learn a ton, but it is not necessary to most practical way to learn riding skills nor is it the safest for everyone.

If you started with this as the headline, people wouldn't view you as so obstinate. It's as if you agree, but want to pick silly fights for entertainment. Nobody is saying track riding is necessary. Nobody is saying that parking lot skills are useless. This was a simple thread saying how after one particular rider had some track experience, canyon riding felt quite different to him compared to prior having that experience, and talking about some of the reasons why.

["A"]

Originally Posted by Alex

If you started with this as the headline, people wouldn't view you as so obstinate. It's as if you agree, but want to pick silly fights for entertainment. Nobody is saying track riding is necessary. Nobody is saying that parking lot skills are useless. This was a simple thread saying how after one particular rider had some track experience, canyon riding felt quite different to him compared to prior having that experience, and talking about some of the reasons why.

Isn't that the purpose have having a forum? to have discussions?

[Alex]

Yup. But if at the end of those discussions, if everyone a user is chatting with throws up their hands and says hell with it, the user isn't particularly good at it. The goal on just about any forum for everybody but trolls (and we have very few of those here, thankfully) is to continue to have useful, interesting, entertaining, and ultimately friendly threads that cause you and everyone else to enjoy their time here and want to come back and do it some more. Right?

["A"]

Originally Posted by Alex

Yup. But if at the end of those discussions, if everyone a user is chatting with throws up their hands and says hell with it, the user isn't particularly good at it. The goal on just about any forum for everybody but trolls (and we have very few of those here, thankfully) is to continue to have useful, interesting, entertaining, and ultimately friendly threads that cause you and everyone else to enjoy their time here and want to come back and do it some more. Right?

I see all of us enjoy being right, even at the expense of distorting others posts.

Track riding is expensive, at some point I'm sure it be comes an impractical activity, but for most riders who have never had the experience, it could be an eye-opener to a whole different level of riding. For some, that experience is invaluable.
Can't we all just get along?

[JeffM]

I think I have hit upon what makes the canyons different from the track for me.

The canyons I ride up I am very familiar with and I am used to riding them with a certain memory, so to speak. That memory includes the amount of perceptual speed I am familiar with. So, when I ride them, my brain is telling me "too fast" where actually I can go quite a bit faster.

On the track I have a new perception of what speed is. On the track there are no trees, canyon walls, or cars rushing by in the opposite direction. In the canyons, those visual signals heighten the perception of speed. The wide open space of the track is visually a lot"slower".

On my ride today I was able to shake a bit of the difference between the two and calmly tightened a few of the turns by leaning in and keeping steady throttle. In the past, I might have done the wrong thing and let off a bit.

My conclusion: Track days enhance street skills.

Jeff

[ratlab]

you will have more riding skill from one track day with a good coach and they are usually provided free with track day than you would in 2 years of canyon riding-you learn body position,turn in ,braking, hitting the apex,avoiding target fixation etc.-i have been doing them for 15 years and now coach-i can't go fast on the street -i ride just to enjoy riding-it,s liberating ,you have nothing to prove to anybody and your survival skills will increase 100 percent-roadracingworld has a fantastic trackday guide-hit the track,your life will never be the same

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by ratlab

you will have more riding skill from one track day with a good coach and they are usually provided free with track day than you would in 2 years of canyon riding-you learn body position,turn in ,braking, hitting the apex,avoiding target fixation etc.-i have been doing them for 15 years and now coach-i can't go fast on the street -i ride just to enjoy riding-it,s liberating ,you have nothing to prove to anybody and your survival skills will increase 100 percent-roadracingworld has a fantastic trackday guide-hit the track,your life will never be the same

This


I went backwards. I learned in the mountains (as many do), I then went to a one day race school. I got my license and went racing the next day. I raced for probably close to a season and a half before I did a track day. I've never done a "public" track day, they have all been "race license required" events or a "school". Track time is worth the money. You will learn skills that will make you better/safer/smoother/cooler/look 10 years younger/ etc on roads.

I've heard tell that it does wonders for hair loss too!

[almost40]

I visit this site ALOT. I have run off at the mouth in other peoples threads, just as others have in this thread. After a discussion with our more than fair and respectful moderator (alex) I saw the error of my ways and realized that maybe, just maybe, what I said might be inflamitory for no other reason than to be inflamitory. Maybe its time to reread all your posts here and take a long hard look at what you are really trying to say. Trying to prove others wrong while not really saying much yourself is counterproductive. It ads nothing to the "discussion"

[JS73]

Originally Posted by "A"

Until you add up your expenses for track day/racing..

Compare how much track time you actually get vs dollar amount that you spend.. how much per minute of ride time?

For the sake of discussion then...

That is up to the person partaking in said activity to decide. Every penny I spend on the track is very well worth it, to me.

Yes, you can learn some riding skills practicing in an empty parking lot, the MSF course even encourages it. In fact they are great for practicing low speed maneuvers.
That being said, the skills learned at a one or two day track school will enhance your skills further than taking 10 MSF courses and riding in the 'big' parking lot.
So, for the sake of all being safer and more skilled riders; Even you decide that track riding or racing is not for you, at least attempt to attend 1 track school. It will make you a better rider.

[almost40]

Originally Posted by ratlab

you will have more riding skill from one track day with a good coach and they are usually provided free with track day than you would in 2 years of canyon riding-you learn body position,turn in ,braking, hitting the apex,avoiding target fixation etc.-i have been doing them for 15 years and now coach-i can't go fast on the street -i ride just to enjoy riding-it,s liberating ,you have nothing to prove to anybody and your survival skills will increase 100 percent-roadracingworld has a fantastic trackday guide-hit the track,your life will never be the same

+10000000000000000000

[sowega]

The best thing about racing is that it's not a trackday, and most everyone on the track has the skills to belong there. If you are not inspired by a green flag waving and the throng of bikes piling into turn 1, then I probably don't want to talk to you.

The best thing about trackdays is listening to new guys talk about how fast they are on the mountain, then passing them on a 250. Also, hitting the rev limiter in top gear on a litre bike is a special kind of fun. Also, in the later, lighter sessions, it's an incredible amount of fun to play around with guys you know and trust.

The best thing about riding in the mountains/canyons/whatever is getting up early to beat the traffic, and having all that road to yourself. I haven't yet found a road I like better than 129 north of Dahlonega, but, when the crowds of skill-less and stupid show up around 10:30, it's about as much fun as the interstate.

[sowega]

Originally Posted by almost40

I visit this site ALOT. I have run off at the mouth in other peoples threads, just as others have in this thread. After a discussion with our more than fair and respectful moderator (alex) I saw the error of my ways and realized that maybe, just maybe, what I said might be inflamitory for no other reason than to be inflamitory. Maybe its time to reread all your posts here and take a long hard look at what you are really trying to say. Trying to prove others wrong while not really saying much yourself is counterproductive. It ads nothing to the "discussion"

For every post I actually submit, I type and backspace five. There are TONS of people on this forum who have no idea what they're talking about, and continually give bad advice and opinions. We routinely have people who have never turned a wheel on a racetrack giving trackday advice, and guys who have never turned a wrench giving advice on how to work on the bikes.

So, I'm with you. It's tough to ignore blatant dumbassery. The thing is: this isn't our house. So, until I figure out a nice way of pointing out that someone is full of sh*t, I'm just going to keep typing up a response, then deleting it.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by sowega

For every post I actually submit, I type and backspace five. There are TONS of people on this forum who have no idea what they're talking about, and continually give bad advice and opinions.

I urge you to point 'em out as it happens. We're here to learn from each other, not to avoid disagreeing with each other at all costs.

[Jinx250]

Originally Posted by sowega

So, until I figure out a nice way of pointing out that someone is full of sh*t, I'm just going to keep typing up a response, then deleting it.

Just type:

FOS!

As the reply. I try to stay away from arguing on the internet, because it's like winning the special olympics (you figure out how). But when someone posts info that is so wrong as to border on unsafe / dangerous, I'll call the person on it if someone else has not already.

[tiggen]

Originally Posted by "A"

Personally, I never consider crashing as an option, if you factor that into your riding, likelihood of crash will go down.

Dude, this is brilliant!! Why didn't I think of that?

Originally Posted by sowega

For every post I actually submit, I type and backspace five.

I do this, too. Very cathartic. Especially on the Beeb where the stupid can be enraging.

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by tiggen

I do this, too. Very cathartic. Especially on the Beeb where the stupid can be enraging.

What's a Beeb?

[tiggen]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

What's a Beeb?

http://forums.13x.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12

Beware the dungeon.

[rockNroll]

nickname for wera forums?

[tiggen]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

nickname for wera forums?

yes. comes from BBS.

[backinthesaddleagain]

When I was racing motocross C level was 2 - 4 lap motos, then B level was 2 - 15 minutes motos + 2 laps. Some friends were doing enduros and hare scrambles. They got lots more riding in for their money. If you took the cost of the bike, the gear, the repairs, transport to and from the race, occational motel stays, meals at the track, etc then the cost per minute, or per lap would be silly.

Its all about the enjoyment, riding has a high cost associated with it, as do most things we do for fun. Maybe birdwatching is cheap, but I was never interested in enduros so probably won't be interested in birdwatching.


back to the original post - first track day will be next week. will see how i feel after that.

[almost40]

Have fun man. listen and learn. best teacher I know is the instructors at the track and the track itself.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Thanks Kevin

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

back to the original post - first track day will be next week. will see how i feel after that.

Please report back. I'm, of course, curious if your track day will make street riding feel any different like it did for me.

Have fun

[ratlab]

sowega -there are lots of guys on track days with number plates that are slow as crap -there are lots of guys with license plates that are fast-one thing about track days is you get way more seat time-you are right about not completely trusting who you are riding with,but club racing is pretty much the same+1 about dudes who are fast on the street ,but can't wrap their heads around actual track speeds-one thing about going 70 miles per in the canyons and 120 at turn 2 a t-hill in cal

[Alex]

Originally Posted by ratlab

120 at turn 2 a t-hill in cal

If you're doing 120 in turn 2, you're going to have a bunch of friends drag the bike several hundred yards across that field back to the track after you get it stopped.

(I think you mean turn 1.)

[ducducgooseit]

Only thing I don't like about track days are the folks that blast on the straights and then crawl through the turns .

Blast by me on the straights - but jeeze creeze don't crawl through the turns .

Hanging off to beat the band too . As I sit there basically upright behind them saying go go go argggg .

And no, I don't scoot over to the middle of the straight and make everyone else go 'round . Course, I ride the slowest groups, so I probably shouldn't whine but ......