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Old December 9th, 2019, 12:07 AM   #1
F9zSlavik
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300 seems to be running at 50% power. Severe idling problems. Turns off

Wasn't sure how to title this thread

https://youtu.be/n0b-8LUPogk

Main symptoms: Bike seems to be working on 1 cylinder. 2nd cylinder works but struggles to stay on. Hard to describe see video. When you power it on, it turns on fine, after about a minute, RPMS drops significantly, causes the bike to go below 1k rps and occasionally will jump 1.5k-2k (normal) rpms. Leave it on long enough and it will turn off. When you do full throttle in N, the bike SLOWLY climbs its RPM scale. Sometimes it will climb normal and give out.

Modification done to it: Exhaust only and K&N Air Filter. Nothing else. Slip on.

Issue started about 2-3 weeks ago. Bike was running great, I would notice it would idle kind of weird after the exhaust swap, idle would very slight drop but nothing that caused me to have any concerns. It wasn't until I performed a tune up on that the issue got really bad. I did an OIL change on it, I used Rotella oil as I like to do my oil changes quite frequently. I added iridium spark plugs on it. Everything worked great for about 50 miles and that's when the bike would run on 50% power. See video. I thought, OK maybe it did not like the iridium sparks plugs. I added stock spark plugs, worked just fine for about 200 miles and now I have the EXACT same issue.

I went ahead and took out the Sparks Plugs and the Coils.

See pictures below. I see what looks like GUNK on the coils, they look like rust and gunk. Is that normal? That wasn't there 2 weeks ago when I worked on it. The spark plug has about 300 miles on it and they look like they already have a few thousand miles on it.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1J7...QfYwUhaLYJ2kxy

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1JA...ZgTdFoMfjNWeGN

I regret selling my Ninja 250 :,(
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Old December 9th, 2019, 03:59 AM   #2
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I listened to the video, but the google drive links won’t open for me. Says an error 404

Since you said this Started after You did work to the bike, we need to be sure you didn’t cause this issue by mistake. Double check all of your work. Sometimes you can cause an issue while working and not realize it. Check all connections and connectors. Does your fuel smell ok? Oil level correct? See if you can get a picture or two of the coils since you had questions about them.

How is your air filter? Sounds like the bike is running rich which could mean too much fuel or not enough air flow.
We’ll sort this out, don’t regret your old 250 just yet.
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Old December 9th, 2019, 07:22 AM   #3
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I can't see the Google Drive photos either.

There are plenty of things that can cause what you are experiencing, most are pretty simple to correct.

Is the battery fully charged? Check the voltage before starting - should be 12.7V. Check it cranking - should be over 10V. Check it at idle - should be 13V or more. F.I. bikes do odd things if the voltage is low.

How old is the fuel? If there's any question, drain and refill before taking things apart. Add a strong fuel system cleaner like Techron Concentrate once per season to clear deposits from the injectors, intake valves, and combustion chamber.

Did you oil the new air filter - too much? Put the original one back in and see how it runs.
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Old December 9th, 2019, 08:19 AM   #4
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Google Drive links were copied 2nd time after being pasted. That’s why there’s .... in middle of link (not just in displayed text). Best to use Share -> Get Link, then paste it directly into post without having to copy it from anywhere.

- do compression test. Always 1st step in any poor-running scenario. Will pinpoint mechanicsl issues like valve-sealing, headgasket, etc. Saves you tonne of time in diagnosing problems.

- Does your model have O2-sensor? Verify with oscilloscope that its output swings from 0,15 to 0,85v many times per second with warmed up engine.

- test/measure TPS sensor and idle-switch.

- test/measure ECT sensor with warmed-up engine as ECU makes AFR corrections based upon engine-coolant temp. If ECT is sending incorrect data, fueling will be off.

- test/measure MAP sensor at idle with warmed-up engine. This is major contributor to load/sensing and ECU will inject improper amount of fuel if MAP signal is incorrect.

- verify MAP sensor signal by measuring actual intake-manifold vacuum at idle with warmed up engine.

- measure fuel-pressure in rail at idle with warmed-up engine


Basically, EVERYTHING has to be within spec or bike will run poorly. Any one (or more)!of those components being out-of-adjustment or out-of-spec will cause bike to run poorly. Most important diagnostic tools for mechanics in past 100-years is voltmetre and vacuum-gauge.
-
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Old December 10th, 2019, 12:27 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gantt View Post
I listened to the video, but the google drive links won’t open for me. Says an error 404
Since you said this Started after You did work to the bike, we need to be sure you didn’t cause this issue by mistake. Double check all of your work. Sometimes you can cause an issue while working and not realize it. Check all connections and connectors. Does your fuel smell ok? Oil level correct? See if you can get a picture or two of the coils since you had questions about them.
How is your air filter? Sounds like the bike is running rich which could mean too much fuel or not enough air flow.
We’ll sort this out, don’t regret your old 250 just yet.
Pictures should open now!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JAJ...ew?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1J73...ew?usp=sharing

The bike already had idling problems but they were very SLIGHT! I am wondering if I just made the problem worse!

I checked all that I can, the bike starts up fine, no issues, its only when it warms up that it starts to fail! I think the fuel smell fine I mean I don't smell anything out of the ordinary.

I checked the air filter. It looks fine to me. I cleaned it with dishw asher soap. Some of the red dye came off the K&N air filter. I hope I didn't break that too :/

I don't think it's an air issue but the air filter did smell like fuel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkv45 View Post
I can't see the Google Drive photos either.
There are plenty of things that can cause what you are experiencing, most are pretty simple to correct.
Is the battery fully charged? Check the voltage before starting - should be 12.7V. Check it cranking - should be over 10V. Check it at idle - should be 13V or more. F.I. bikes do odd things if the voltage is low.
How old is the fuel? If there's any question, drain and refill before taking things apart. Add a strong fuel system cleaner like Techron Concentrate once per season to clear deposits from the injectors, intake valves, and combustion chamber.
Did you oil the new air filter - too much? Put the original one back in and see how it runs.
I believe the battery is fully charged. It has never died out on me once and the bike ALWAYS starts when I crank it. I've crank it a bunch of times in a row with no issues. I mean I could swap out the battery from my SFV650 and see if it does the same thing? Could the battery do that though?

I do not have a multi meter but I will go out tomorrow and buy one.

I will buy a cleaner, do you recommend putting in premium gas? Like chevron or shell?

Did I oil the air filter? I do not know what you mean by that. Can you clarify?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Google Drive links were copied 2nd time after being pasted. That’s why there’s .... in middle of link (not just in displayed text). Best to use Share -> Get Link, then paste it directly into post without having to copy it from anywhere.
- do compression test. Always 1st step in any poor-running scenario. Will pinpoint mechanicsl issues like valve-sealing, headgasket, etc. Saves you tonne of time in diagnosing problems.
- Does your model have O2-sensor? Verify with oscilloscope that its output swings from 0,15 to 0,85v many times per second with warmed up engine.
- test/measure TPS sensor and idle-switch.
- test/measure ECT sensor with warmed-up engine as ECU makes AFR corrections based upon engine-coolant temp. If ECT is sending incorrect data, fueling will be off.
- test/measure MAP sensor at idle with warmed-up engine. This is major contributor to load/sensing and ECU will inject improper amount of fuel if MAP signal is incorrect.
- verify MAP sensor signal by measuring actual intake-manifold vacuum at idle with warmed up engine.
- measure fuel-pressure in rail at idle with warmed-up engine
Basically, EVERYTHING has to be within spec or bike will run poorly. Any one (or more)!of those components being out-of-adjustment or out-of-spec will cause bike to run poorly. Most important diagnostic tools for mechanics in past 100-years is voltmetre and vacuum-gauge.
-
Someone recommended a compression test. I mean would it start having that kind of issues on a bike that barely has 6 thousand miles on it? I assume a compression tester is universal right? I can go to autozone and pick one up?

I have to double check tomorrow if it has an o2 sensor.

"- test/measure TPS sensor and idle-switch."
I have no idea how to do this
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Old December 10th, 2019, 07:00 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F9zSlavik View Post
I believe the battery is fully charged. It has never died out on me once and the bike ALWAYS starts when I crank it. I've crank it a bunch of times in a row with no issues. I mean I could swap out the battery from my SFV650 and see if it does the same thing? Could the battery do that though?

I do not have a multi meter but I will go out tomorrow and buy one.

I will buy a cleaner, do you recommend putting in premium gas? Like chevron or shell?

Did I oil the air filter? I do not know what you mean by that. Can you clarify?
Low voltage can cause odd running issues, especially in an engine with F.I., so it's worth checking.

Premium gas isn't necessary, but if it's the only thing available without ethanol I use it. 87 octane without ethanol is the best if available.

Most air filters need to be oiled after being cleaned and dried. Special air filter oil is always the best, and a spray oil is easiest to use. It's also very easy to apply too much oil to the filter, which restricts air flow significantly and makes the engine run rich/poorly. One medium coat of spray oil is adequate.
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Old December 10th, 2019, 03:43 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F9zSlavik View Post
Someone recommended a compression test. I mean would it start having that kind of issues on a bike that barely has 6 thousand miles on it? I assume a compression tester is universal right? I can go to autozone and pick one up?

I have to double check tomorrow if it has an o2 sensor.

"- test/measure TPS sensor and idle-switch."
I have no idea how to do this
Stuff can creep into combustion-chamber and jam valves open. Happened recently to someone. Compression-test catch that immediately.

You need to get factory workshop-manual. It outlines how to measure sensors and what correct values (numbers) should be.
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Old December 11th, 2019, 10:16 PM   #8
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So I bought a multi meter.
I also bought a compression tester.

How do I go about doing a compression test on a Ninja 300? It doesn't look hard but I want to make sure I do exactly what I am suppose to do.

So I need to get factory workshop-manual? Where do I get that?
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Old December 12th, 2019, 03:16 AM   #9
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Check online for the manual. You can usually find a copy for free. Search for a pdf copy. I have a manual for the 250 and the 400. You may find a member here that can give you the 300 manual.
For compression test remove both spark plugs, put a battery charger on the battery and unplug your fuel injectors. Screw the adapter into one cylinder and turn it over with the starter for about 5-10 seconds. The goal is to turn it o er until you see the gauge stop increasing pressure. Write the number down, then repeat for the other cylinder.
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Old December 12th, 2019, 09:05 AM   #10
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Compression tester should come with several adapters. Screw on 10mm one that will match threads on spark plug. Also compression test is done at WOT for no restrictions. Crank engine for 6-10 revolutions. Don’t know what numbers from manual says, I think you want around 180psi. Desired to have no more than 10% difference between cylinders.

Clue here is it runs fine until warmed up. This pinpoints 2 possible sensors as most likely culprit:

ECT - when indicating cold-start, ECU injects extra petrol for cold-start cycle. But if ECT doesn’t properly report warmed-up engine, ECU may continue to inject extra fuel. Which will be too rich and cause stumbling and poor running.

O2 sensor - is most likely culprit if you have quick change from good running when cold to suddenly falling on its face. When cold, ECU ignores O2-sensor completely (open loop) and blindly injects pre-mapped fuel amounts (+ cold-start enrichment). After 2-5 minutes when engine is warmed up, ECU uses O2-sensor to adjust fuel mixtures (closed loop). Bad O2-sensor will indicate lean mixtures all the time and ECU will continue adding more and more fuel. This will cause poor running and stumbling engine.
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Old December 12th, 2019, 12:33 PM   #11
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Some compression testers have the check valve right at the head's spark plug threads and some have it on the gauge side of an adapter. With small displacement cylinders like these, the volume in the adapter can cause very low readings.
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Old December 14th, 2019, 01:49 PM   #12
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I did a compression test

Here are the results: 90 PSI each one. Do you think its odd that both are 90? Is this accurate or did I do something wrong?

Had to space out the HTTPS and the :// because the forum keeps adding [URL] code and breaks the link. Test the link and they work, just copy it and remove the spaces

https :// drive.google.com/file/d/1KCjPYKTpgoIL7hFXFTEYKS8ufr9BCKsv/view?usp=sharing

https :// drive.google.com/file/d/1K65j0fL2Nkp9xcNbhL87m380ffHQqHbB/view?usp=sharing

And here are the steps I took to do the test:
Removed both spark plugs
Disconnected the gas tank (no gas)
Left throttle open
Inserted test in 1 whole and then did the other
Crank it for 5-10 seconds

I did not warm up the motorcycle, would that make a difference?
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Old December 14th, 2019, 04:17 PM   #13
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Numbers are little low. Looks like your procedure is correct. A lot of people make mistake of not having throttle WOT. Yes, cold engine typically does not seal as well, but is usually down only -20-25%. Here’s additional test data you can get:

2. Repeat test with warmed up engine
3. Repeat with warmed up engine with ~1cc engine-oil squirted into cylinders through spark-plug hole.

These numbers combined with your original test will help narrow down areas to inspect more closely. Might want to check cam-chain tension and cam-timing.

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Old December 14th, 2019, 05:28 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Numbers are little low. Looks like your procedure is correct. A lot of people make mistake of not having throttle WOT. Yes, cold engine typically does not seal as well, but is usually down only -20-25%. Here’s additional test data you can get:

2. Repeat test with warmed up engine
3. Repeat with warmed up engine with ~1cc engine-oil squirted into cylinders through spark-plug hole.

These numbers combined with your original test will help narrow down areas to inspect more closely. Might want to check cam-chain tension and cam-timing.
I will re do the test in the manner that you suggested. I will try to do it tomorrow night or for sure, Monday night.

One thing to note.

I replaced both spark plugs. I replaced both coils. The bike is running normally. This is what happened last time and it run fine for a week. Someone thinks maybe the coils are going bad but I feel that is not the issue.
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Old December 15th, 2019, 06:53 AM   #15
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Did you see my post above? How is your compression gauge made?
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Old December 15th, 2019, 09:02 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F9zSlavik View Post
I will re do the test in the manner that you suggested. I will try to do it tomorrow night or for sure, Monday night.

One thing to note.

I replaced both spark plugs. I replaced both coils. The bike is running normally. This is what happened last time and it run fine for a week. Someone thinks maybe the coils are going bad but I feel that is not the issue.
Put either old coils or old plugs back in to determine exact failure.
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Old December 17th, 2019, 08:03 AM   #17
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Did you see my post above? How is your compression gauge made?
I have a gauge just like it. Mine has a valve at the end of the hose, the side that adapts to the cylinder
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Old December 17th, 2019, 09:20 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Put either old coils or old plugs back in to determine exact failure.
also post photo of input-terminal of old spark-plugs.
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Old February 5th, 2020, 01:42 PM   #19
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Guy sorry I had some life things happen which took me away from my hobbies
So I took a risk and bought some used coils from a wrecked 2017 Ninja 300. Slapped it in and it has been working flawlessly ever since. I don't understand that. Still using stock spark plugs

I sold the Ninja 300 yesterday. I put it for sale for 2700 to see if anyone would buy it and someone did an hour later. I bought back my Ninja 250 for half the price that I sold it for lol
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Old February 5th, 2020, 11:35 PM   #20
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Interesting that coils went bad...
Were they original OEM coils? Or aftermarket?
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Old February 6th, 2020, 10:34 AM   #21
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Interesting that coils went bad...
Were they original OEM coils? Or aftermarket?
The ones that I took out of my motorcycle looked exactly like the used ones I bought so I would imagine they were OEM.
I thought it was odd too. I drove it naked for a week until I felt comfortable that the issue had been resolved. Drove it fro over 1k miles with no issues.

Regretting having sold the 300! I am looking into a 400. I like small bikes they seem so much funner.
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Old February 7th, 2020, 10:36 AM   #22
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400 is best value at moment. Lighter than 250/300 and more power than both.

Currently best way to get trophies in racing as well. In our AFM club, 400 can place top-10 in every class. Beating up 450 cripple-600s, top of 600 SS/SB class, dominating LW/MW-Twins, even scoring in various 1000cc classes as well! It's going to have its own class this year.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; February 7th, 2020 at 04:29 PM.
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