Clutch Problems (formerly "clutch cable")

headshrink · May 17th, 2011, 05:36 PM

I know that new cables tend to stretch more when they are new, so of course when my bike was new I had to re-tightened the clutch cable more often to keep it where I wanted it. I'm still on my original cable, but oddly enough, it seems my cable has started tightening itself (shrinking)! Whether this is what is actually happening or not, I don't know, I just have to keep LOOSENING my cable to get the friction point back to where I like it (I like it close to the bar). Could this be my imagination, or might there be something else causing my friction point to move out (as if the cable were tightened)?

EDIT: New problems. Update starting in post 25, please take a peek.

g21-30 · May 18th, 2011, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by headshrink

I know that new cables tend to stretch more when they are new, so of course when my bike was new I had to re-tightened the clutch cable more often to keep it where I wanted it.

So, Doc, what are you trying to say here? Will new cables stretch less when they are old? What is your definition of new?

I'm sorry, but I just couldn't resist.

Did you check the end nearest the clutch? Is it possible an object is wedged between the cable and the engine, causing the cable to tighten?

headshrink · May 24th, 2011, 04:02 PM

After loosening the cable AGAIN, I decided to revisit the issue. I checked for obstructions, but there are none that I can see. Whatever the problem is, it is definitely getting worse. The lever that the cable pulls (down at the clutch) now only travels a small amount before the clutch disengages. I measured the free-play at the clutch lever (hand end), and it is a whopping 8.6mm! I am not aware of any slippage, but have looked for it. I'm concerned my clutch may be starting to go, BUT it seems to be doing the opposite of what I would expect. If things keep going the way they are going, I'm afraid my clutch won't disengage at all!

I don't know if the following is relevant, but I'll list it, as it is the only thing out of the ordinary that occurred prior to the clutch issues:
I accidentally spilled some antifreeze into my engine during a recent valve adjustment. This of course gave me the nasty cloudy oil, with what I like to call gummy plaque. As advised, I picked up some cheap Walmart Super Tech dino oil (non EC), and began flushing the oil (when HOT). After 2 flushed I saw a significant improvement, and continued to flush a total of 4-5 times. I have been driving on the last flush over the last couple weeks because it looks clean now.

I don't know if this caused any problems, but like I said, it is the only thing out of the ordinary right before I started noticing any problems. Other than this possibility, I had no other issues that I'm aware of (shifted fine, etc.).

I am draining the oil right now to put my regular oil back in (Rotella T6), to see if there is any difference..... it seems like a long shot, but worth a try.

EDIT: Do I have it backward in my mind, will a clutch disengage with the slightest pull when going bad? But thinking the other way, it stays engaged almost the entire "throw"...... confused.

headshrink · May 24th, 2011, 05:45 PM

Note: Not to cause further confusion, but I MAY have misused the work "engaged." What I MEANT by saying the clutch was engaging, was actually the GEARS were engaging. So I may have had it backward is engaging a clutch means neutral. I'll reword the entire thing if what I am trying to say still isn't clear. Sorry about that.

headshrink · May 24th, 2011, 10:21 PM

I've been searching other forums for answers, and can't find someone who has had the exact same symptoms. Since no one has responded today, I'll restate the symptoms in a more simplified manner. In trouble-shooting I decided the cable and lever were likely distracting me from what I suspect the actual cause it (clutch). It seems that the bottom line is the transmissions only engages the engine when the clutch lever is almost 100% released. In other-words, a fraction of a squeeze of the lever will disengage the tranny from the engine.

In conclusion: I interpret this to mean the clutch has lost most of its "grabbing" ability, and is on its way to being dead. I'm not 100% positive, as I cannot feel any obvious slipping. It seems like the bike should have a little more power, but a change in weather would also explain performance differences. I would;don't say it was a bad performance day, just not a good one.

Why now? Theory: Other than the coolant (which is slippery stuff), I can't think of anything. Maybe the walmart oil is crap... but I'm really reaching now, I think. Riding style? I like to accelerate fast, but that is about as aggressive as I am on a regular basis.

After changing back to my regular oil today, I haven't noticed any change/correction.

Any constructive feedback is appreciated. Business is in the crappier, so ordering new clutch plates would come out of the food budget, and I would like to be farley certain before ordering them.

kkim · May 25th, 2011, 01:25 PM

the only thing I can think of that would cause the clutch lever free play to get less would be if the clutch plates were to swell and physically become thicker. I would imagine somehow the coolant might have made the plates swell???? I'm guessing as to what would cause the plates to expand/swell. I've had coolant leaks (in the dirt bikes) mix with the crankcase oil but have never suffered clutch plate problems due to the oil/coolant mix. The plate material may be different in the ninja, though.

other than the engagement point changing, has it affected the operation/ability of the clutch to grab? is it slipping?

headshrink · May 25th, 2011, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkim

the only thing I can think of that would cause the clutch lever free play to get less would be if the clutch plates were to swell and physically become thicker. I would imagine somehow the coolant might have made the plates swell???? I'm guessing as to what would cause the plates to expand/swell. I've had coolant leaks (in the dirt bikes) mix with the crankcase oil but have never suffered clutch plate problems due to the oil/coolant mix. The plate material may be different in the ninja, though.

other than the engagement point changing, has it affected the operation/ability of the clutch to grab? is it slipping?

The clutch lever free play never actually got less.... it was just the friction point that moved. Then after a few adjustments the free play was huge (8.6mm). Even at that the friction point wasn't completely back where I like it, it was more in the middle.

I am not feeling any obvious slip, and other than a couple missed shifts, haven't noticed shifting issues. I have tried accelerating while under a load to get it to slip, but unless it is brief or very mild, I don't feel it.

I would say at this point, assuming nothing were to change, it technically seems to work, but feels unnatural the way it immediately grabs so fast, and thus I end up with "jerky" shifts here and there. There were a couple times it did slip, but I believe that was the exception, due to the position I was holding the lever at the moment... while splitting lanes on a red, needed to accelerate through last pair of cars because the light changed, and as I was releasing the clutch I naturally held the lever for a moment before removing my hand. It was at that exact position that had become the 1/2 way point on the friction point (feathered, if you will).

I would crack the case for a looksee, but I believe it would cost me a new gasket everytime.... correct me if I'm wrong.

kkim · May 25th, 2011, 02:44 PM

I would just adjust the friction point to where you like it and ride the bike. It's most likely residue from the coolant that was mixed in w/ the crank oil. It will most likely improve as you put more miles on the bike and the residue works its way off the plates. As long as it's not slipping, I'd use the bike as is.

headshrink · May 25th, 2011, 03:24 PM

I'll do that. Unfortunately putting the FP where I want it still just feels funky due to all the freeplay in the lever.

DaBlue1 · May 26th, 2011, 05:44 AM

I think what you are observing and feeling is normal. Unless you have removed the clutch release shaft and put it in wrong, the lever part of it only moves a short distance (approx 1 cm) providing all adjustments are correct. If you can push down on the clutch release (shaft) lever and get movement in the clutch lever, then your adjustment are ok. A way to check it is to completely loosen the adjusting nut at the lever, then see how far you can push the clutch release (shaft) lever down then readjust the lever at the adjusting nut. also check the clutch perch to make sure it is where it is suppose to be. sometimes moving it can affect cable adjustment. just my 2 cents.

Momaru · May 26th, 2011, 06:04 PM

Having driven vehicles with failing clutches, the friction point keeps getting "higher" on the stroke, meaning there's less motion needed to disengage the engine from the drive wheel(s). As the friction plates get thinner, it takes less rotation of the pin (via the cable) to allow them to separate I get the vehicle into neutral.

If the above suggestions don't help, it very well might be time to take a look at your clutch plates & check their wear.

kkim · May 26th, 2011, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Momaru

Having driven vehicles with failing clutches, the friction point keeps getting "higher" on the stroke, meaning there's less motion needed to disengage the engine from the drive wheel(s). As the friction plates get thinner, it takes less rotation of the pin (via the cable) to allow them to separate I get the vehicle into neutral.

If the above suggestions don't help, it very well might be time to take a look at your clutch plates & check their wear.

yikes... I would have thought it was the other way around... as the plates wear, cable free play would become greater. Even if you are correct (and I'm not saying you are not), I still say he should leave the bike as is until the clutch starts slipping or he sees odd pieces of friction material drain out during an oil change.

headshrink · May 26th, 2011, 08:10 PM

I'm going to watch it very closely, and if it continues to get worse, start ordering parts to redo the clutch. Is it good enough to order just the friction plates, or do I need to order the other plates too? How about springs? I have done a lot of searches, and actually found conflicting info on this. Also, OEM or aftermarket?

It seems easiest to crack the case for a look, but would I need a new gasket? I know we are supposed to use one when we redo the clutch, but I would hate to end up buying one JUST to look, and possibly buy another.

headshrink · May 31st, 2011, 04:40 PM

I downshift a lot for deceleration, including all the way down to 1st (habit). Would downshifting to 1st accelerate the wear on the clutch?

Momaru · June 1st, 2011, 10:21 PM

If you have to ride the friction point longer at (relatively) high RPM, I'd say yes. I drastically accelerated the wear on the friction plates in my old Ford Ranger by revving with the clutch partially engaged (angry moments while driving from a time thankfully past).

With replacing the plates/springs/etc, I really don't know. I've been told by the guys at a local shop that it's good practice to redo the whole 9 yeards, BUT based on the way things were when I opened my clutch in January (and two other occassions), I'd say needing to reorder the metal plates between the friction rings is sheer silliness. The ninja250.org forum wiki seems to say the springs tend to wear out before the friction plates do. While that's from the pre-gens, I'd bet my lunch money Kawasaki didn't feel the need to change much in the clutch. There's specs for checking both springs and friction plates in the manual, as I'm sure you've already found. A quick google search turned up a spring kit for $12.50 by Barnett.

Regarding opening the case, there's a chance you can get away with opening it, but it's a paper gasket so chances are unless you're either a pro and/or unusually lucky, you'll need to replace it. I've been told liquid gasket (available @ your local auto store) can be an acceptable substitute, but have never been tempted to chance a significant oil leak to save the cost of a gasket. I'd order 2-3 of them and just have spares on hand. You'll also lose a good bit of oil when you open the clutch cover, but less if you do this on the side stand. I usually just open the clutch in the middle of an oil change if I need to get in there.

Frankly, I'm with Kerry on the general issue though. Unless it's your primary commuter, I'd ride it until you're sure it's something that needs to be fixed.

As with all info I post, any information is based strictly on my experiences as a hobby mechanic (and my literature searches), not on professional training.

headshrink · June 2nd, 2011, 11:51 AM

It is my primary commuter, so I better get on it.....

In comparing OEM vs aftermarket parts, I notice the friction plates are offered in different material. I'm not sure what OEM is, but thought I read something about "fiber" something (not sure what that means. EBC uses cork, and Barnett uses Kevlar. Any recommendations on what is better? Kevlar sounds intuitively better to me than cork, but I really have no idea in this application. Since the springs are cheap, I'll order those too. Thinking about replacing clutch cable, since it has been 3 years of heavy use. I don't see evidence of significant wear on the cable, so think I should wait, or take opportunity to replace preemptively?

kkim · June 2nd, 2011, 11:56 AM

Bob,

I'd leave it alone until it starts to cause you problems. Is it causing you problems?

headshrink · June 2nd, 2011, 12:03 PM

Well, it is driveable, but the problem developed quickly to begin with, and I THINK it continues.... I was afraid I would be without a bike in another month.

Lockshi3 · June 2nd, 2011, 07:49 PM

Sorry to hijack.. Just got my bike. The friction point is almost at release. Can someone either tell me or point me in the right direction as to how to adjust the engagement point/friction zone? I see how to adjust the play, but does this affect the friction zone at all? Probably not?

headshrink · June 2nd, 2011, 08:12 PM

Loosening the cable will increase the free-play, and thus move your friction point closer to the grip. There is no adjustment other than cable adjustment at both ends. If your bike is new your cable will likely stretch, so it should naturally loosen. Otherwise you would need to tighten it to compensate for the stretching of the cable (just like on a bicycle).

Lockshi3 · June 2nd, 2011, 08:18 PM

Thanks! My cables are ungodly tight. The first time I tried to find the engagement slowly, eventually the clutch was what I thought fully engaged and did not even move an inch or stall. I'll just have to keep breaking her in.

she has 35 miles so far lol

kkim · June 2nd, 2011, 08:31 PM

does this help?
http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10016

Lockshi3 · June 2nd, 2011, 08:36 PM

Thanks for the nice write-up! I especially liked the plus 10 HP piece

kkim · June 2nd, 2011, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lockshi3

I especially liked the plus 10 HP piece

gar-un-teed!!!

as far as altering the friction point, you can only adjust it to a small degree. The clutch needs to still be able to fully disengaged when you pull the lever back to the bar. If you need the friction point in more than that, perhaps some adjustable levers might help.

headshrink · July 27th, 2011, 07:19 PM

UPDATE:

My clutch seemed fine for a little while, then started getting worse.... so I ordered new friction plates and springs (EBC).

I expected that when I opened the case, I would find the springs needed to be replaced, and possibly the friction plates themselves, but the metal clutch plates would be fine. This is mostly based on what I have read around the net.

However, what I actually found was that the springs were still in spec, although closer to service limit then standard, and the friction plates were not even close to the service limit. The metal clutch plates between the friction plates, however, as well as the matting surface of the basket, & operating plate, do concern me. I will post pictures below.

Does it look like this might be the actual cause of my clutch problems?

headshrink · July 27th, 2011, 10:30 PM

I updated an older thread about some clutch issues, but by the time the problem was getting closer to being diagnosed, it became apparent the title ("Clutch Cable") was misleading, and was concerned no one would see it. I hope I'm not making a mess by fragmenting things, but wanted to post a link to the update here: http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showp...4&postcount=25
I now have photos posted with the damage.

Alex: Is it possible, or prudent, to either change the original title, or merge these (for housekeeping purposes)?

Alex · July 27th, 2011, 10:34 PM

renamed thread title and merged 'em. I think this works, let me know if you're OK with this.

headshrink · July 27th, 2011, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex

renamed thread title and merged 'em. I think this works, let me know if you're OK with this.

Looks good to me... I wanted to put an edit note in the first post to direct new readers down to today's updates (so they don't get bored before they get to the real problem), but I'm past the edit date... is that still possible?

Alex · July 27th, 2011, 11:03 PM

all set

headshrink · July 27th, 2011, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex

all set

Thanks!

Sooo.... have any thoughts on the pics of the clutch-plate and basket wear?

Alex · July 27th, 2011, 11:24 PM

No thoughts that are remotely useful, sorry.

DaBlue1 · July 28th, 2011, 07:08 AM

Looks damn clean! What oil are you using?

LoneRonin · July 28th, 2011, 10:02 AM

your basket and friction plates look good. The steel plates look a little worn but not as bad as mine...Mine were scorched blue. Swap em out and see how that goes.

I remember posting in a similar thread and advising the OP to get steel plates because friction plates and springs would likely be within spec. I'm guessing you didn't get a chance to look at it...

headshrink · July 28th, 2011, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

Looks damn clean! What oil are you using?

Rotella T6

headshrink · July 28th, 2011, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneRonin

your basket and friction plates look good. The steel plates look a little worn but not as bad as mine...Mine were scorched blue. Swap em out and see how that goes.

I remember posting in a similar thread and advising the OP to get steel plates because friction plates and springs would likely be within spec. I'm guessing you didn't get a chance to look at it...

I have some new info:

When I took pics of the parts, I had already washed them in kerosene (only the metal clutch plates). But, it didn't seem to do much of a difference. But after I posted this message, I continued to look for solutions that may not require more $ in parts. I started using soapy water and Scotchgard pad, and am finding it is helping a little. The plates still have wear, but some of it appears to be glazing. I'm only about 25% done on those plates, but I am hopeful for a little improvement.

Also, I MAY have measured the friction plate incorrectly, but am not sure. Originally, I put my caliper blades on both sides of the plate, with each atop a friction pad/block. This always reveled a number that seemed way high. It was a little higher than the "standard" number in the manual. BUT, I measure from the top of one pad, offset on the other side so I am only measuring the thickness of the one pad and metal backing, I get the kind of number I expected to see (at or just below SL)! It seems like a strange way to measure, but the numbers suggest it may be the way to do it.... this would be GOOD news. Will keep posted.

headshrink · July 28th, 2011, 02:42 PM

I'm still working, but I wanted to show what a dramatic difference the scotch-pads made! I was actually shocked, because it seems to have restored areas that previously looked like the had almost been polished to a mirror finish..... the scotch-pads not only helped clean off glazing, but also roughed it up a bit. The only part I can't clean up is the surface inside the basket... not without a clutch holder anyways.

headshrink · August 1st, 2011, 05:46 PM

My Motion Pro clutch holding tool just arrived, and I [eventually] go the hub bolt off, and removed the inner basket so I can clean it up.

This was a difficult nut to crack, so to speak. A 2-foot breaker bar wouldn't do it, but it succumbed to the impact wrench. Unfortunately, there is now evidence of this on the inner basket, where the clutch holder engaged. I do not recommend this tool for our clutch, as it is really a universal type design, and doesn't grip the teeth squarely/cleanly. Using the impact wrench probably didn't help, but I primarily think the tool contributed more. I recommend others either get the EBC clutch holder specific for your clutch, the one Kawi recommends, or make your own... http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=80817

Here are pics of the damage.... anyone think this will be a potential problem?

ducducgooseit · August 1st, 2011, 06:39 PM

IMO, if there is only ONE marred area and you lightly smooth the edges of the mar so there are no fingers of metal to scrap the plates you will be OK.

headshrink · August 1st, 2011, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ducducgooseit

IMO, if there is only ONE marred area and you lightly smooth the edges of the mar so there are no fingers of metal to scrap the plates you will be OK.

Thanks. I wasn't too worried about it. Based on the darker marks, it looks to me most of the contact area from the clutch plate will just be on the smallest part... but I will try to smooth it out anyways.

headshrink · August 1st, 2011, 10:49 PM

I cleaned up the inner basket, reinstalled it (it was difficult pulling the clutch holder with one hand and torque wrench with the other). Now I get a beautiful wobble when I spin the basket! I can only think I bent the hub/shaft when I either took the hub nut off, or reinstalled it. If I had to do it again I would use the impact wrench for both on, and off.... it may technically be a no-no, but at least I wouldn't put bending force on the shaft. I can't be 100% sure I just did this, but I am pretty sure I would have noticed it before.

Here is a video of it... please tell me if I just ruined something else that was supposed to be easy.

Link to original page on YouTube.

May 17th, 2011, 05:36 PM	#1
headshrink ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Bob Location: CA Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250r, '14 CBR500r Posts: A lot.	Clutch Problems (formerly "clutch cable") I know that new cables tend to stretch more when they are new, so of course when my bike was new I had to re-tightened the clutch cable more often to keep it where I wanted it. I'm still on my original cable, but oddly enough, it seems my cable has started tightening itself (shrinking)! Whether this is what is actually happening or not, I don't know, I just have to keep LOOSENING my cable to get the friction point back to where I like it (I like it close to the bar). Could this be my imagination, or might there be something else causing my friction point to move out (as if the cable were tightened)? EDIT: New problems. Update starting in post 25, please take a peek. __________________________________________________ Honda Interceptor VFR800 DLX (2014, 8th gen) Honda CBR500r (2014) - FOR SALE Kawi Ninja 250r (2008) - Restored and passed-down within family, only to be abandoned Last futzed with by headshrink; May 24th, 2011 at 09:59 PM.

May 24th, 2011, 04:02 PM	#3
headshrink ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Bob Location: CA Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250r, '14 CBR500r Posts: A lot.	After loosening the cable AGAIN, I decided to revisit the issue. I checked for obstructions, but there are none that I can see. Whatever the problem is, it is definitely getting worse. The lever that the cable pulls (down at the clutch) now only travels a small amount before the clutch disengages. I measured the free-play at the clutch lever (hand end), and it is a whopping 8.6mm! I am not aware of any slippage, but have looked for it. I'm concerned my clutch may be starting to go, BUT it seems to be doing the opposite of what I would expect. If things keep going the way they are going, I'm afraid my clutch won't disengage at all! I don't know if the following is relevant, but I'll list it, as it is the only thing out of the ordinary that occurred prior to the clutch issues: I accidentally spilled some antifreeze into my engine during a recent valve adjustment. This of course gave me the nasty cloudy oil, with what I like to call gummy plaque. As advised, I picked up some cheap Walmart Super Tech dino oil (non EC), and began flushing the oil (when HOT). After 2 flushed I saw a significant improvement, and continued to flush a total of 4-5 times. I have been driving on the last flush over the last couple weeks because it looks clean now. I don't know if this caused any problems, but like I said, it is the only thing out of the ordinary right before I started noticing any problems. Other than this possibility, I had no other issues that I'm aware of (shifted fine, etc.). I am draining the oil right now to put my regular oil back in (Rotella T6), to see if there is any difference..... it seems like a long shot, but worth a try. EDIT: Do I have it backward in my mind, will a clutch disengage with the slightest pull when going bad? But thinking the other way, it stays engaged almost the entire "throw"...... confused. __________________________________________________ Honda Interceptor VFR800 DLX (2014, 8th gen) Honda CBR500r (2014) - FOR SALE Kawi Ninja 250r (2008) - Restored and passed-down within family, only to be abandoned

May 24th, 2011, 05:45 PM	#4
headshrink ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Bob Location: CA Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250r, '14 CBR500r Posts: A lot.	Note: Not to cause further confusion, but I MAY have misused the work "engaged." What I MEANT by saying the clutch was engaging, was actually the GEARS were engaging. So I may have had it backward is engaging a clutch means neutral. I'll reword the entire thing if what I am trying to say still isn't clear. Sorry about that. __________________________________________________ Honda Interceptor VFR800 DLX (2014, 8th gen) Honda CBR500r (2014) - FOR SALE Kawi Ninja 250r (2008) - Restored and passed-down within family, only to be abandoned

May 24th, 2011, 10:21 PM	#5
headshrink ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Bob Location: CA Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250r, '14 CBR500r Posts: A lot.	I've been searching other forums for answers, and can't find someone who has had the exact same symptoms. Since no one has responded today, I'll restate the symptoms in a more simplified manner. In trouble-shooting I decided the cable and lever were likely distracting me from what I suspect the actual cause it (clutch). It seems that the bottom line is the transmissions only engages the engine when the clutch lever is almost 100% released. In other-words, a fraction of a squeeze of the lever will disengage the tranny from the engine. In conclusion: I interpret this to mean the clutch has lost most of its "grabbing" ability, and is on its way to being dead. I'm not 100% positive, as I cannot feel any obvious slipping. It seems like the bike should have a little more power, but a change in weather would also explain performance differences. I would;don't say it was a bad performance day, just not a good one. Why now? Theory: Other than the coolant (which is slippery stuff), I can't think of anything. Maybe the walmart oil is crap... but I'm really reaching now, I think. Riding style? I like to accelerate fast, but that is about as aggressive as I am on a regular basis. After changing back to my regular oil today, I haven't noticed any change/correction. Any constructive feedback is appreciated. Business is in the crappier, so ordering new clutch plates would come out of the food budget, and I would like to be farley certain before ordering them. __________________________________________________ Honda Interceptor VFR800 DLX (2014, 8th gen) Honda CBR500r (2014) - FOR SALE Kawi Ninja 250r (2008) - Restored and passed-down within family, only to be abandoned

May 25th, 2011, 03:24 PM	#9
headshrink ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Bob Location: CA Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250r, '14 CBR500r Posts: A lot.	I'll do that. Unfortunately putting the FP where I want it still just feels funky due to all the freeplay in the lever. __________________________________________________ Honda Interceptor VFR800 DLX (2014, 8th gen) Honda CBR500r (2014) - FOR SALE Kawi Ninja 250r (2008) - Restored and passed-down within family, only to be abandoned

May 25th, 2011, 01:25 PM	#6
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	the only thing I can think of that would cause the clutch lever free play to get less would be if the clutch plates were to swell and physically become thicker. I would imagine somehow the coolant might have made the plates swell???? I'm guessing as to what would cause the plates to expand/swell. I've had coolant leaks (in the dirt bikes) mix with the crankcase oil but have never suffered clutch plate problems due to the oil/coolant mix. The plate material may be different in the ninja, though. other than the engagement point changing, has it affected the operation/ability of the clutch to grab? is it slipping?

May 25th, 2011, 02:44 PM	#8
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	I would just adjust the friction point to where you like it and ride the bike. It's most likely residue from the coolant that was mixed in w/ the crank oil. It will most likely improve as you put more miles on the bike and the residue works its way off the plates. As long as it's not slipping, I'd use the bike as is.

May 26th, 2011, 05:44 AM	#10
DaBlue1 Long Time Rider Name: Blue Location: Charlotte, NC Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.	I think what you are observing and feeling is normal. Unless you have removed the clutch release shaft and put it in wrong, the lever part of it only moves a short distance (approx 1 cm) providing all adjustments are correct. If you can push down on the clutch release (shaft) lever and get movement in the clutch lever, then your adjustment are ok. A way to check it is to completely loosen the adjusting nut at the lever, then see how far you can push the clutch release (shaft) lever down then readjust the lever at the adjusting nut. also check the clutch perch to make sure it is where it is suppose to be. sometimes moving it can affect cable adjustment. just my 2 cents.

May 26th, 2011, 06:04 PM	#11
Momaru ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Paul Location: Roanoke, VA Join Date: Jun 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Candy Plasma Blue 250R Posts: A lot.	Having driven vehicles with failing clutches, the friction point keeps getting "higher" on the stroke, meaning there's less motion needed to disengage the engine from the drive wheel(s). As the friction plates get thinner, it takes less rotation of the pin (via the cable) to allow them to separate I get the vehicle into neutral. If the above suggestions don't help, it very well might be time to take a look at your clutch plates & check their wear. __________________________________________________ Proud member of the Blue Army

May 26th, 2011, 08:10 PM	#13
headshrink ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Bob Location: CA Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250r, '14 CBR500r Posts: A lot.	I'm going to watch it very closely, and if it continues to get worse, start ordering parts to redo the clutch. Is it good enough to order just the friction plates, or do I need to order the other plates too? How about springs? I have done a lot of searches, and actually found conflicting info on this. Also, OEM or aftermarket? It seems easiest to crack the case for a look, but would I need a new gasket? I know we are supposed to use one when we redo the clutch, but I would hate to end up buying one JUST to look, and possibly buy another. __________________________________________________ Honda Interceptor VFR800 DLX (2014, 8th gen) Honda CBR500r (2014) - FOR SALE Kawi Ninja 250r (2008) - Restored and passed-down within family, only to be abandoned

May 31st, 2011, 04:40 PM	#14
headshrink ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Bob Location: CA Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250r, '14 CBR500r Posts: A lot.	I downshift a lot for deceleration, including all the way down to 1st (habit). Would downshifting to 1st accelerate the wear on the clutch? __________________________________________________ Honda Interceptor VFR800 DLX (2014, 8th gen) Honda CBR500r (2014) - FOR SALE Kawi Ninja 250r (2008) - Restored and passed-down within family, only to be abandoned

June 1st, 2011, 10:21 PM	#15
Momaru ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Paul Location: Roanoke, VA Join Date: Jun 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Candy Plasma Blue 250R Posts: A lot.	If you have to ride the friction point longer at (relatively) high RPM, I'd say yes. I drastically accelerated the wear on the friction plates in my old Ford Ranger by revving with the clutch partially engaged (angry moments while driving from a time thankfully past). With replacing the plates/springs/etc, I really don't know. I've been told by the guys at a local shop that it's good practice to redo the whole 9 yeards, BUT based on the way things were when I opened my clutch in January (and two other occassions), I'd say needing to reorder the metal plates between the friction rings is sheer silliness. The ninja250.org forum wiki seems to say the springs tend to wear out before the friction plates do. While that's from the pre-gens, I'd bet my lunch money Kawasaki didn't feel the need to change much in the clutch. There's specs for checking both springs and friction plates in the manual, as I'm sure you've already found. A quick google search turned up a spring kit for $12.50 by Barnett. Regarding opening the case, there's a chance you can get away with opening it, but it's a paper gasket so chances are unless you're either a pro and/or unusually lucky, you'll need to replace it. I've been told liquid gasket (available @ your local auto store) can be an acceptable substitute, but have never been tempted to chance a significant oil leak to save the cost of a gasket. I'd order 2-3 of them and just have spares on hand. You'll also lose a good bit of oil when you open the clutch cover, but less if you do this on the side stand. I usually just open the clutch in the middle of an oil change if I need to get in there. Frankly, I'm with Kerry on the general issue though. Unless it's your primary commuter, I'd ride it until you're sure it's something that needs to be fixed. As with all info I post, any information is based strictly on my experiences as a hobby mechanic (and my literature searches), not on professional training. __________________________________________________ Proud member of the Blue Army

June 2nd, 2011, 11:51 AM	#16
headshrink ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Bob Location: CA Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250r, '14 CBR500r Posts: A lot.	It is my primary commuter, so I better get on it..... In comparing OEM vs aftermarket parts, I notice the friction plates are offered in different material. I'm not sure what OEM is, but thought I read something about "fiber" something (not sure what that means. EBC uses cork, and Barnett uses Kevlar. Any recommendations on what is better? Kevlar sounds intuitively better to me than cork, but I really have no idea in this application. Since the springs are cheap, I'll order those too. Thinking about replacing clutch cable, since it has been 3 years of heavy use. I don't see evidence of significant wear on the cable, so think I should wait, or take opportunity to replace preemptively? __________________________________________________ Honda Interceptor VFR800 DLX (2014, 8th gen) Honda CBR500r (2014) - FOR SALE Kawi Ninja 250r (2008) - Restored and passed-down within family, only to be abandoned

June 2nd, 2011, 11:56 AM	#17
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	Bob, I'd leave it alone until it starts to cause you problems. Is it causing you problems?

June 2nd, 2011, 12:03 PM	#18
headshrink ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Bob Location: CA Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250r, '14 CBR500r Posts: A lot.	Well, it is driveable, but the problem developed quickly to begin with, and I THINK it continues.... I was afraid I would be without a bike in another month. __________________________________________________ Honda Interceptor VFR800 DLX (2014, 8th gen) Honda CBR500r (2014) - FOR SALE Kawi Ninja 250r (2008) - Restored and passed-down within family, only to be abandoned

June 2nd, 2011, 07:49 PM	#19
Lockshi3 ninjette.org member Name: Amanda Location: Jersey City Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawi Green Ninja 250 Posts: 73	Sorry to hijack.. Just got my bike. The friction point is almost at release. Can someone either tell me or point me in the right direction as to how to adjust the engagement point/friction zone? I see how to adjust the play, but does this affect the friction zone at all? Probably not?

June 2nd, 2011, 08:12 PM	#20
headshrink ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Bob Location: CA Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250r, '14 CBR500r Posts: A lot.	Loosening the cable will increase the free-play, and thus move your friction point closer to the grip. There is no adjustment other than cable adjustment at both ends. If your bike is new your cable will likely stretch, so it should naturally loosen. Otherwise you would need to tighten it to compensate for the stretching of the cable (just like on a bicycle). __________________________________________________ Honda Interceptor VFR800 DLX (2014, 8th gen) Honda CBR500r (2014) - FOR SALE Kawi Ninja 250r (2008) - Restored and passed-down within family, only to be abandoned

June 2nd, 2011, 08:18 PM	#21
Lockshi3 ninjette.org member Name: Amanda Location: Jersey City Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawi Green Ninja 250 Posts: 73	Thanks! My cables are ungodly tight. The first time I tried to find the engagement slowly, eventually the clutch was what I thought fully engaged and did not even move an inch or stall. I'll just have to keep breaking her in. she has 35 miles so far lol

June 2nd, 2011, 08:31 PM	#22
kkim Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: Too much.	does this help? http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10016

June 2nd, 2011, 08:36 PM	#23
Lockshi3 ninjette.org member Name: Amanda Location: Jersey City Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawi Green Ninja 250 Posts: 73	Thanks for the nice write-up! I especially liked the plus 10 HP piece

July 27th, 2011, 07:19 PM	#25
headshrink ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Bob Location: CA Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250r, '14 CBR500r Posts: A lot.	UPDATE: My clutch seemed fine for a little while, then started getting worse.... so I ordered new friction plates and springs (EBC). I expected that when I opened the case, I would find the springs needed to be replaced, and possibly the friction plates themselves, but the metal clutch plates would be fine. This is mostly based on what I have read around the net. However, what I actually found was that the springs were still in spec, although closer to service limit then standard, and the friction plates were not even close to the service limit. The metal clutch plates between the friction plates, however, as well as the matting surface of the basket, & operating plate, do concern me. I will post pictures below. Does it look like this might be the actual cause of my clutch problems? __________________________________________________ Honda Interceptor VFR800 DLX (2014, 8th gen) Honda CBR500r (2014) - FOR SALE Kawi Ninja 250r (2008) - Restored and passed-down within family, only to be abandoned

July 27th, 2011, 10:30 PM	#26
headshrink ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Bob Location: CA Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250r, '14 CBR500r Posts: A lot.	Burnt out clutch I updated an older thread about some clutch issues, but by the time the problem was getting closer to being diagnosed, it became apparent the title ("Clutch Cable") was misleading, and was concerned no one would see it. I hope I'm not making a mess by fragmenting things, but wanted to post a link to the update here: http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showp...4&postcount=25 I now have photos posted with the damage. Alex: Is it possible, or prudent, to either change the original title, or merge these (for housekeeping purposes)? __________________________________________________ Honda Interceptor VFR800 DLX (2014, 8th gen) Honda CBR500r (2014) - FOR SALE Kawi Ninja 250r (2008) - Restored and passed-down within family, only to be abandoned

July 27th, 2011, 10:34 PM	#27
Alex ninjette.org dude Name: 1 guess :-) Location: SF Bay Area Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 7	renamed thread title and merged 'em. I think this works, let me know if you're OK with this. __________________________________________________ Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered)

July 27th, 2011, 11:03 PM	#29
Alex ninjette.org dude Name: 1 guess :-) Location: SF Bay Area Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 7	all set __________________________________________________ Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered)

July 27th, 2011, 11:24 PM	#31
Alex ninjette.org dude Name: 1 guess :-) Location: SF Bay Area Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 7	No thoughts that are remotely useful, sorry. __________________________________________________ Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered)

July 28th, 2011, 07:08 AM	#32
DaBlue1 Long Time Rider Name: Blue Location: Charlotte, NC Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.	Looks damn clean! What oil are you using?

July 28th, 2011, 10:02 AM	#33
LoneRonin ninjette.org sage Name: Jason Location: Mississauga Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 09 Ninja 250r Posts: 634	your basket and friction plates look good. The steel plates look a little worn but not as bad as mine...Mine were scorched blue. Swap em out and see how that goes. I remember posting in a similar thread and advising the OP to get steel plates because friction plates and springs would likely be within spec. I'm guessing you didn't get a chance to look at it...

July 28th, 2011, 02:42 PM	#36
headshrink ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Bob Location: CA Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250r, '14 CBR500r Posts: A lot.	I'm still working, but I wanted to show what a dramatic difference the scotch-pads made! I was actually shocked, because it seems to have restored areas that previously looked like the had almost been polished to a mirror finish..... the scotch-pads not only helped clean off glazing, but also roughed it up a bit. The only part I can't clean up is the surface inside the basket... not without a clutch holder anyways. __________________________________________________ Honda Interceptor VFR800 DLX (2014, 8th gen) Honda CBR500r (2014) - FOR SALE Kawi Ninja 250r (2008) - Restored and passed-down within family, only to be abandoned

August 1st, 2011, 05:46 PM	#37
headshrink ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Bob Location: CA Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250r, '14 CBR500r Posts: A lot.	My Motion Pro clutch holding tool just arrived, and I [eventually] go the hub bolt off, and removed the inner basket so I can clean it up. This was a difficult nut to crack, so to speak. A 2-foot breaker bar wouldn't do it, but it succumbed to the impact wrench. Unfortunately, there is now evidence of this on the inner basket, where the clutch holder engaged. I do not recommend this tool for our clutch, as it is really a universal type design, and doesn't grip the teeth squarely/cleanly. Using the impact wrench probably didn't help, but I primarily think the tool contributed more. I recommend others either get the EBC clutch holder specific for your clutch, the one Kawi recommends, or make your own... http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=80817 Here are pics of the damage.... anyone think this will be a potential problem? __________________________________________________ Honda Interceptor VFR800 DLX (2014, 8th gen) Honda CBR500r (2014) - FOR SALE Kawi Ninja 250r (2008) - Restored and passed-down within family, only to be abandoned

August 1st, 2011, 06:39 PM	#38
ducducgooseit Name: ... Location: ... Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): ... Posts: 999	IMO, if there is only ONE marred area and you lightly smooth the edges of the mar so there are no fingers of metal to scrap the plates you will be OK.

August 1st, 2011, 10:49 PM	#40
headshrink ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Bob Location: CA Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250r, '14 CBR500r Posts: A lot.	I cleaned up the inner basket, reinstalled it (it was difficult pulling the clutch holder with one hand and torque wrench with the other). Now I get a beautiful wobble when I spin the basket! I can only think I bent the hub/shaft when I either took the hub nut off, or reinstalled it. If I had to do it again I would use the impact wrench for both on, and off.... it may technically be a no-no, but at least I wouldn't put bending force on the shaft. I can't be 100% sure I just did this, but I am pretty sure I would have noticed it before. Here is a video of it... please tell me if I just ruined something else that was supposed to be easy. Link to original page on YouTube. __________________________________________________ Honda Interceptor VFR800 DLX (2014, 8th gen) Honda CBR500r (2014) - FOR SALE Kawi Ninja 250r (2008) - Restored and passed-down within family, only to be abandoned Last futzed with by headshrink; August 2nd, 2011 at 12:53 AM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
"scratching" noise when driving, depending on the clutch	Norway	2008 - 2012 Ninja 250R Tech Talk	12	May 17th, 2014 05:38 PM
Clutch release kills the motor "Seems to be kickstand switch"	WesleySnipes	1986 - 2007 Ninja 250R Tech Talk	24	April 22nd, 2013 09:41 PM
[roadracingworld.com] - MAVTV Cable Network Relaunching With New "American Real" Bran	Ninjette Newsbot	Motorcycling News	0	June 20th, 2012 05:00 PM
clutch lever "plastic spring pin"	gt_turbo	2008 - 2012 Ninja 250R Tech Talk	16	September 6th, 2011 07:00 PM
Clutch Cable End "Rubber Booty"	addy126	2008 - 2012 Ninja 250R Tech Talk	34	July 19th, 2011 09:52 PM