Why I Hate IRC Tires

[gfloyd2002]

There is a place in the world for low rolling resistance tires. As gas prices shoot through the roof, and car manufacturers fight to get mpg up, low rolling resistance can help out. And these types of tires last. The harder compounds let them last longer, making them economical in another way as well. But a car is less likely to lose traction than a motorcycle, and if it does, the other tires keep the car stable. Hard tires are great for a Prius, but the consequences of a motorcycle losing traction is much more likely to be significant injury. Which is one of the reasons I hate the IRC tires that come stock on the new Ninjettes. There are others as well. I imagine that the conversation about switch from the decent Dunlop GT501 (or even better Bridgestone BT-45s) that came standard on the 08 models went something like this:

Accountant: "We have to keep the price under $4000."
Marketer: "Yeah, and we'd love to advertise high mileage in this challenging oil environment."
Accountant: "Hey, lets go to a tire that has high rolling resistance. They are cheap, and we can get away with it by saying it helps add life to the tire and keep gas money in your pocket."
Marketer: "Genius!"
Technical Guy: "WTF! NO! People could get hurt! Those BT-45s have a good dual compound tread that does both twisties and commuting pretty well."
Crap Manager: "I agree with the bean counters. Make it so."

And these fears definately play out in the performance of the tire. As one of several examples, I was approaching a corner that transitioned from asphalt to cement where a bridge crossed the road. I judged it to be about a 40mph corner, but I took it at a conservative 15-20. As I got midway through the corner, I got a little bit of hesitation in the maintenance throttle from being a touch lean at mid revs, and the back tire gave out. After fighting it, I dropped it at low speed, no injury, little damage, etc. I had little lean angle and was off the brakes, so the tires should have had plenty of grip. As I pulled the bike up and waited for a chance to take a look at the road surface and see what I'd done wrong, a gixxer (with a squid not wearing a helmet) took the corner at about 40 no problem. Then a mailman, riding his 75cc scooter with mailbags and skinny tires, took the corner at about 20. wtf. I went and looked back at the road after it was clear, and there was a hard to see slick spot, but nothing that a better tire couldn't have handled no problem. My old cruiser would have been fine 100 times out of 100 at that speed over that surface. Apparently the scooter's tire and the gixxers tire were fine too.

I rode over the spot a few times to investigate, the tire held twice, then it kicked out again on the third try. (I stayed upright, as I was planning for the tire to go.) Sure, maybe the scooter and gixxer were "lucky" and didn't hit right on the worst bit, and sure, the tires were cold and the engine was too, increasing chance of an issue. And yes, it is ultimately rider error for not seeing the issue and knowing the limits of the tires better. It is a poor craftsman who blames his tools, so full responsibility here. All that said, I just have zero confidence that minor issues won't result in traction loss with the IRCs. I mean really, if we can't take a 40mph corner at 20mph unless the road, bike and rider are absolutely perfect, and are getting outperformed by 75cc scooters, what is the point?

Finally, I don't like the tread design. The vertical line down the middle of the front tire is very grabby. Over uneven surfaces, lane markings, or anything really, it pulls the tire and steers for you. Potentially dangerous, and always inconvenient, I very much prefer to steer myself thankyouverymuch. And the cutaway tread on rear edges, while improving wet cornering, really hurt dry grip. Better to go with a softer compound on the edges (ala the BT45) than remove rubber.

[bdavison]

Im not a big fan of the IRC tires either.
I suspect that the reason Kawasaki went with them instead of the previous versions was due more to the increase in wheel size than some beancounting exec. as the price isnt much different between the two.

That being said....I never had any problems with the IRC's other than when they were cold, or wet. Once I figured out their limitations, I did what I needed to to make them work.

Id hammer it to get em warmed up to temps, and when it was wet out, Id take it super easy.

I got 7300 miles out of the IRC's before they wore out, and never had one single incident that put me down on them.

Now, im not defending the IRC by any stretch of the imagination...they suck, and once I use them up....they are gone....forever.

Im running the Dunlop GT501 now on the back...and its a great tire. But when it was brand new...it was slick. The thing slid around on me like crazy the first few days I had it on there. I knew it was going to be slick, and rode gently until I got it scrubbed in.

I dont know how new your bike is, but on any bike with a new set of tires...you really need to put at least 100 miles on it before the tire is going to grab with any authority. The tire manufacturers will tell you they dont use mold release anymore....they are full of $&%*. Anyone with half a brain will see that crap wear off the tire during the first few days of use, and its like riding on grease until it does.

[KURT]

Accountants win, every time.

[gfloyd2002]

Originally Posted by bdavison

I dont know how new your bike is, but on any bike with a new set of tires...you really need to put at least 100 miles on it before the tire is going to grab with any authority. The tire manufacturers will tell you they dont use mold release anymore....they are full of $&%*. Anyone with half a brain will see that crap wear off the tire during the first few days of use, and its like riding on grease until it does.

I'm at about 1200 miles. No reason for them still to be slick, except they were cold and it isn't a good tire. Passable, if you are really careful, but not as good as GT501, BT45, BT016, Sport Demon, or pretty much any other tire you could buy.

Originally Posted by bdavison

Im not a big fan of the IRC tires either.
I suspect that the reason Kawasaki went with them instead of the previous versions was due more to the increase in wheel size than some beancounting exec. as the price isnt much different between the two.

The wheel size is the same for 2008 and 2009, isn't it? They had good tires on the newgens for a while, and there isnt an issue getting BT45s and GT501s for the newer 17 inch size. And while the price on the IRCs is only slightly cheaper retail, I'm willing to bet my left nut that Kawasaki got a deal from IRC for bulk purchase that was really sweet. Sort of like how car rental companies buy crap cars for their fleet because they cut a deal with GM.

[backinthesaddleagain]

what are your air pressures?

[nexus]

Originally Posted by KURT

Accountants win, every time.

[demp]

I've got this one IRC experience stuck in my head every time I hear the word, I was trying to come to a stop on a wet road as it had just begun pouring. Needless to say the rear tire broke loose and I skidded some distance, kept it upright, and I was quite proud of that, at that moment, I knew the tires just had to go.

[DaBlue1]

I'm like you gfloyd2002. I am not a big fan of the stock IRC tires that come on the Ninja. Even though I was able to get a lot of miles and some good mpg out of them, they didn't do so well in the handling dept. The tire design (on the rear in particular) removes too much rubber on the outside edge of the tire. I don't see how grip is improved by removing rubber from a tire. About the only thing that design IMO is good for is pushing away water. Although some may find the stock IRC tires fine for simple day to day commuting and an occasional spirited run thru the twisties, those who push their bikes a little harder may find that the tires can make riding a little scary at times. It is not until a tire switch is made to another tire, that one can tell the difference in feel and response of the bike, which also inspires a bit more confidence.

So who is to blame for the type of tires that have been stock on the Ninja 250R? Kawasaki, Bridgestone, or IRC? I think most would speculate Kawasaki as being the one who has the overall say in what tires go on a particular bike and that the switch from the BT-45's to the IRC Roadwinners was a exercise in cost cutting. This may be true, but I read an article which was a little surprising. It appears that Bridgestone Corp. and Inoue Rubber Corp.(IRC) agreed to form a 50-50 joint venture company, Bridgestone IRC Manufacturing Co. Ltd., to produce bias-ply tires for motorcycles and scooters back in 2000. http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-68544895.html
(Both companies have been in the tire industry for decades)

This could explain Kawasaki's departure from the BT-45 to the IRC RX-01. Kawasaki's contract with Bridgestone includes IRC. IRC's tires are part Bridgestone as well. The BT-45s which were stock on some 2008's were more than likely stock pile leftovers in Kawasaki or Bridgestone's warehouse.

[Live2ride]

The first time I ever rode a 250 (IRC's) on the street I was zooming around the twisties by my house; I was going about 55mph around a corner I can take at 60mph comfortably in my suv when suddenly I felt the back tire sliding slightly, I didn't crash luckily. I noticed that throughout the day I felt like the bike could handle every corner much faster than the tires would allow. It was my first 250 street ride and I could already tell that the IRC's suck (even after the 3,500 miles they had on them). I've heard a lot of people say that the bt-45's are the best tires for our ninjettes and plan on buying them right after I get a 250.

[nexus]

Or pirelli sport demons

[gfloyd2002]

Originally Posted by nexus

Or pirelli sport demons

Already have a pair in route. I can't wait.

[gfloyd2002]

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

what are your air pressures?

Spot on rear, were 1/2 psi light on the front. Now spot on both.

[nexus]

Originally Posted by gfloyd2002

Already have a pair in route. I can't wait.

You will love them. They stick like glue and aren't too bad in the rain either.

[Broc]

I really don't understand why everyone hates these tires? Sure they're not the best but I never had any issues with them. Rain,sleet, snow, & sand. I put 11,000 miles on my stock IRC's and you could drag knee with em. My rear only started to slip a little when I wore the rear smooth. It was kinda of fun the tire would side step on 1st to 2nd gear change while slightly leaned, it was really fun!

Now everyone talks crap on my 006 Podium Shinko's which rock for $120 a pair!!!! I think people just like to hate on the 250.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by KURT

Accountants win, every time.

You would think but it wasn't them. And these same people are the ones who decided on carbs over FI for the US market.

[00NissanNinja]

I had a similar experience on my IRC tires. I was nowhere near the max I have ever leaned, maybe about 30 degrees, and I was going about 20 mph through a turn. All of a sudden the rear just slipped right out. Since then I haven't really been comfortable leaning with these tires. As a matter of fact I've had the rear slip under mild lean angle about three times since, but at least I caught the bike before low siding again. The Tread design also causes problems just like you said. The tread in the middle likes to catch imperfections in the roads which can be unnerving at times.

[gfloyd2002]

Originally Posted by Broc

I really don't understand why everyone hates these tires? Sure they're not the best but I never had any issues with them. Rain,sleet, snow, & sand. I put 11,000 miles on my stock IRC's and you could drag knee with em. My rear only started to slip a little when I wore the rear smooth. It was kinda of fun the tire would side step on 1st to 2nd gear change while slightly leaned, it was really fun!

Now everyone talks crap on my 006 Podium Shinko's which rock for $120 a pair!!!! I think people just like to hate on the 250.

I love your signature about keeping the bike stock. Clearly you are someone who speaks sense, so your comment really makes me wish there was more scientific data on motorcycle tires.

You can find all sorts of great information on car tire testing - comparison tests with actual data - but I turn up next to nothing on motorcycle tires other than subjective reports. I'd even be happy if my assessment of the IRCs turned out to be wrong, if only I could see the numbers . . . Closest I've found is referenced in this thread. But even there, the IRC's weren't rated, and the assessment was mostly subjective except for the lap times.

[karlosdajackal]

i did 7500 miles on my IRC's not the best tires in the world but not dangerous, and i certainly wasn't taking it handy on them. A tire won't suddenly loose traction at 20mph something else happened there.

I have the BT45's now and yes the have more grip, but not that much better either. Even had the IRCs on frosty morning and in torrential rain and they where grand. You just don't get much feeling from them but they grip if you have faith in them. I think the IRC front is quite good actually.

[Xoulrath]

The IRC's are not good tires, but I have to agree with Bryan, as they are not absolute crap either. In fact, I feel like the tires made me a better rider due to having to worry about positioning, lean angle, and throttle control or fear injury or death. I recommend anyone switch to a different tire as soon as the IRC's run out of tread without question, but I don't recommend spending money (unnecessarily) on new tires as soon as they take delivery of their 250 simply to get rid of them.

With that said, I will be replacing mine soon, as I am starting to notice cracks forming on the sidewall of mine, specifically the rear. The tread is also starting to lose grip (or at least it feels that way to me). It sucks honestly because I've only 4,000 miles on them and I wasn't really wanting to spend money on tires just yet.

[CZroe]

Just so you guys know...

I had nearly the exact scenario from the OP happen to me yesterday on some balding GT-501s (FWIW, general consensus actually seems to slightly prefer these over the BT45s). After my rear broke loose in a turn, I regained traction and continued only to have the rear tire break loose again during the same turn. By this time, I barely had room to try again and was going too fast and wide so I had to try... Yes, it happened a THIRD time even tough I was aware of what was had happened and trying my best to use the front as much as possible (risky in a turn).

That said, I'm EXTREMELY lucky that one of the cars in the second turn lane to my right saw me struggling and let me cut into their lane when I went wide. It was bumper-to-bumper in each lane, so I lucked out.

Anyway, there are references and Kawi part numbers for all three tires in the '08 manual, so I suspect that they used IRC in Japan or something even on the '08 model year. I guess the conversation didn't go quite like that.

[KawiRider]

I rode on the IRC's just long enough to get my Pilot Powers. I knew the stockers were crap when I left the dealership and hit the rear brakes the first time to test tire grip. Screeeeeeech... The Michelin Pilot Power are awesome tires! I want to try metzler M5's or Bridgestone BT-016 next.

[oroboros]

Gfloyd,

First, good story. I liked the writing. I spent some time in manufacturing (not tires!) what is the possibility that there are variations in production?
Posted via Mobile Device

[gfloyd2002]

Originally Posted by oroboros

Gfloyd,

First, good story. I liked the writing. I spent some time in manufacturing (not tires!) what is the possibility that there are variations in production?
Posted via Mobile Device

To be fair, the slick bit of the road combined with a cold tire, which probably was not even clean so early in the ride in a sandy country, was the culprit. (Well, that and the stupid rider not seeing and riding around the slick bit. ) Though I'm convinced the IRC is a worse choice than BT-45s, BT-16s, Sport Demons, etc., and I'm relatively sure a better tire would have been fine even on the slick bit - I'm not saying that IRC is going to lose grip at 20mph. Its just that road conditions pushed the IRC close to its edge at a lower speed, and I think (subjectively without a ton of evidence) that other tires would've still had grip left over on that particular turn.

[CynicalC]

tl;dr just buy new tires. $200 is only 5% of the total cost of the bike. It's not really a big deal. You could even pawn your takeoffs on craigslist (believe me someone would buy them) and that would make it even cheaper.

[00NissanNinja]

Just to clarify I didn't mean it was the complete fault of the tires. I didn't see anything in the road but maybe I touched one of those crosswalk markings or it was because it was concrete which has less surface grip. I do however feel that motorcycles are a machine that highly depends on having good traction and thus the gripper the tire the better.

[choneofakind]

Kawasaki must have a thing for bad tires on the 250 cuz the Dunlop K630s on the pregens are terrible too. I made it thru this season because i couldnt justify replacing two tires that still had a ton of life, but they got so bad that I finally gave up and ordered a set of BT45s which are scheduled to get here tomorrow

[gfloyd2002]

Originally Posted by CynicalC

tl;dr just buy new tires. $200 is only 5% of the total cost of the bike. It's not really a big deal. You could even pawn your takeoffs on craigslist (believe me someone would buy them) and that would make it even cheaper.

Reading the thread could result in some learning some interesting things, and is often helpful to discussion. For example, I already bought new tires and posted on it.
For me, I think the following post won the thread, giving some interesting history I didn't know about why Kawi moved to the IRCs. It is why I really enjoy this forum and the sometimes overdetailed discussion we engage in:

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

It appears that Bridgestone Corp. and Inoue Rubber Corp.(IRC) agreed to form a 50-50 joint venture company, Bridgestone IRC Manufacturing Co. Ltd., to produce bias-ply tires for motorcycles and scooters back in 2000. http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-68544895.html This could explain Kawasaki's departure from the BT-45 to the IRC RX-01. Kawasaki's contract with Bridgestone includes IRC.

[karlosdajackal]

IRC's have been round a while, I was reading about an old Suzuki 750 that came with them over 15 years ago. Now tires have come a long way in the last 15 years and you can bet that older tires, and more specifically older IRC tires on a 750 probably was a lot worse than new IRC's on a Ninja 250.

Yea the BT-45s might be better, but things could be a whole lot worse

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by gfloyd2002

Reading the thread could result in some learning some interesting things, and is often helpful to discussion. For example, I already bought new tires and posted on it.
For me, I think the following post won the thread, giving some interesting history I didn't know about why Kawi moved to the IRCs. It is why I really enjoy this forum and the sometimes overdetailed discussion we engage in:

Ah gotcha. I guess my mind kinda skips over the whole "why" question and goes right to finding the solution. When I realized the stock re92s on my wrx sucked, I never pondered why they would use such a ****** tire, I just take it as a given that there's always room for improvement over stock. I just sold them on craigslist and bought z1 star specs and put it out of my mind without ever thinking twice!

[gfloyd2002]

Originally Posted by CynicalC

Ah gotcha. I guess my mind kinda skips over the whole "why" question and goes right to finding the solution. When I realized the stock re92s on my wrx sucked, I never pondered why they would use such a ****** tire, I just take it as a given that there's always room for improvement over stock. I just sold them on craigslist and bought z1 star specs and put it out of my mind without ever thinking twice!

Hehe, don't ever get married. That whole go straight to the good solution without listening to time-wasting whining about the problem could get you killed.

[Bols]

The IRC tires are dangerous! Especially in wet conditions. How it can be legal to sell such tires is beyond me. If you got them on your bike, change them! It will very likely save both you and your bike from getting seriously hurt.

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by gfloyd2002

Hehe, don't ever get married. That whole go straight to the good solution without listening to time-wasting whining about the problem could get you killed.

I grew up in a house full of females so I know all about that. I've also lived with my girlfriend for 2 years now. Thankfully she's got all that logic and reasoning and stuff in her brainmeats... most of the time anyway.

[gfloyd2002]

Rode over a nail today, punctured the rear IRC. The new Sport Demons still on a boat from the U.S. I am officially tireless until I can find a plug kit. Serves me right for dissing the IRCs. I'm sorry sweety, don't be like that. Come on, you can make it. I won't dump you for the Pirellis . . .

[Sailariel]

It's ironic that the actual users of the IRC tyres are not heard.

In at least two magazines extolling the virtues of the new Honda 250, IRC Tyres were mentioned--not in a negative way. It sort of makes you wonder--Whose agen these magazines are ? Certainly they are not the agent of you and me.

The consensus on this forum (which is statistically relevant) is that these tyres are not suited for sport bike use. (Am I missing something?) I would also be surprised if Kawasaki was not aware of that issue. The Dunlop 501 and Bridgestone BT-45 have gotten good reviews from consumers. Kawi probably figured that those of us who like a more spirited ride would spend the extra dollars on Pirellis, Avons, Metzler, Dunlops, and Bridgestones.

Since the Ninjette is considered a "Beginners" bike (something I emphatisally disagree with), Why not save a few dollars and equip the bike with a cheap tyre? Kawi is underestimating the intelligence of Ninjette owners. It may come back to bite them--Honda is doing the same thing with their 250.

It is advantageous for Kawasaki and Honda to promote their high performance 250cc bikes as beginners bikes. They would like to see you ride one for a couple of thousand miles, decide you are an advanced rider, and then sell you a Literbike. If you kill or maim yourself on the thing--who cares? They sold a 250 AND a 600 or 750 or 1000. They made their money and you are "Toast"

Hate to sound cynical, but business is business. I hope that our tightly knit family can avoid the temptation of going for more cc's and settle down to appreciate what they really have--which is a great bike that they can really become proficient in riding.

Always remember that the purpose of advertising is to convince you that you absolutely have to have what you really don't need.

[tapdiggy]

Originally Posted by Sailariel

ISince the Ninjette is considered a "Beginners" bike (something I emphatisally disagree with), Why not save a few dollars and equip the bike with a cheap tyre? Kawi is underestimating the intelligence of Ninjette owners. It may come back to bite them--Honda is doing the same thing with their 250.

It is advantageous for Kawasaki and Honda to promote their high performance 250cc bikes as beginners bikes. They would like to see you ride one for a couple of thousand miles, decide you are an advanced rider, and then sell you a Literbike. If you kill or maim yourself on the thing--who cares? They sold a 250 AND a 600 or 750 or 1000. They made their money and you are "Toast"

Hate to sound cynical, but business is business. I hope that our tightly knit family can avoid the temptation of going for more cc's and settle down to appreciate what they really have--which is a great bike that they can really become proficient in riding.

Always remember that the purpose of advertising is to convince you that you absolutely have to have what you really don't need.

I also think Honda is going a bad way with their 250. I didn't think of this reason though. Way to go.

Meanwhile, back on topic:
It seems rational that the IRC tires that have come on the Ninja 250 are probably "factory spec" (as in bike mass production, not the race-related definition). If that is the case, the tires could conceivably be of a lesser capability than the same tire model if it were sold to the public.

[backinthesaddleagain]

I was amazed and shocked the other day. Some new ninja 250's were being moved around the showroom floor at my local dealer and the sales guys kept dropping them. I asked what was going on and they said damn IRC tires. Then once the bikes were in place safely on their kickstands they started sliding out and falling on the floor again.

Seriously though I put about 8k miles on the rear and 11k on the front of my 09 ninjette and rode in many conditions including a 100 mile charity "run" in a noreaster. I'm no where near the most aggressive rider but the tires never surprised me. The only 2 close calls were wet pine needles in a corner and a cold, wet center line on a back road. I replaced them with BT45 which were better.

I think just about any OEM tire is a compromise to stay in a certain price point. Tires wear out and replacement choice is an individual thing. If someone doesn't trust the tires that problem can be taken care of quickly. Obviously that adds to the price of ownership right away. I had a dirt bike years ago that came with bridgestone M23 and M22 IIRC. The magazines gave those tires a great right up on hard pack Cali terrain where they were tested, but in New England they were pretty much replaced before riding. Now dirt types vary more than tar, but I would rather have to replace a tire to suit my riding, than be stuck with a suspension that was horrible or brakes with no feel.

[Live2ride]

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

I was amazed and shocked the other day. Some new ninja 250's were being moved around the showroom floor at my local dealer and the sales guys kept dropping them. I asked what was going on and they said damn IRC tires. Then once the bikes were in place safely on their kickstands they started sliding out and falling on the floor again.

That sounds like someone had just waxed the floor, and that the salesperson may have been new? Because if I was a sales person I'd probably throw my body in front of the bike before it fell so I didn't get fired . I hardly think that, even with brand new tires, that the tires alone would cause the bike to drop so easily while only being pushed through the showroom. Imagine how much it cost him per bike after dropping them. If I walked in there to buy a new 250 and saw rash / broken signals on a bike with 0 miles I'd look at the sales person like they're stupid and walk out never to return.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by Live2ride

That sounds like someone had just waxed the floor, and that the salesperson may have been new? Because if I was a sales person I'd probably throw my body in front of the bike before it fell so I didn't get fired . I hardly think that, even with brand new tires, that the tires alone would cause the bike to drop so easily while only being pushed through the showroom. Imagine how much it cost him per bike after dropping them. If I walked in there to buy a new 250 and saw rash / broken signals on a bike with 0 miles I'd look at the sales person like they're stupid and walk out never to return.

Cody - I guess I should have put a sarcasm icon there as I was kidding.

[Alex]

Nah, it's funnier this way.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Lol