The street is not the track--it's a place to Pace

[Motofool]

I just did read this article in Sport Rider magazine of April 2013, which was also published twenty, ten and four years ago:

"Pace Yourself (fragment)

......But let's get one thing perfectly clear: the street is not the racetrack. Using it as such will shorten your riding career and keep you from discovering the Pace. The Pace is far from street racing-and a lot more fun.......

The Pace places the motorcycle in its proper role as the controlled vehicle, not the controlling vehicle. Too many riders of sport bikes become baggage when the throttle gets twisted-the ensuing speed is so overwhelming they are carried along in the rush. The Pace ignores outright speed and can be as much fun on a Ninja 250 as on a ZX-11, emphasizing rider skill over right-wrist bravado. A fool can twist the grip, but a fool has no idea how to stop or turn. Learning to stop will save your life; learning to turn will enrich it. What feels better than banking a motorcycle into a corner?........

The number-one survival skill, after mastering emergency braking, is setting your corner-entrance speed early, or as Kenny Roberts says, "Slow in, fast out." Street riders may get away with rushing into 99 out of 100 corners, but that last one will have gravel, mud or a trespassing car. Setting entrance speed early will allow you to adjust your speed and cornering line, giving you every opportunity to handle the surprise.......

Racers talk constantly about late braking, yet that technique is used only to pass for position during a race, not to turn a quicker lap time. Hard braking blurs the ability to judge cornering speed accurately, and most racers who rely too heavily on the brakes find themselves passed at the corner exits because they scrubbed off too much cornering speed. Additionally, braking late often forces you to trail the brakes or turn the motorcycle while still braking. While light trail braking is an excellent and useful technique to master, understand that your front tire has only a certain amount of traction to give...........

The Pace emphasizes intelligent, rational riding techniques that ignore racetrack heroics without sacrificing fun. The skills needed to excel on the racetrack make up the basic precepts of the Pace, excluding the mind-numbing speeds and leaving the substantially larger margin for error needed to allow for unknowns and immovable objects.......

The Pace Principles:
1 Set cornering speed early.
2 Look down the road.
3 Steer the bike quickly.
4 Use your brakes smoothly but firmly.
5 Get the throttle on early.
6 Never cross the centerline except to pass.
7 Don't crowd the centerline.
8 Don't hang off in the corners or tuck in on the straights.
9 When leading, ride for the group.
10 When following, ride with the group."

Read full article at:

http://www.sportrider.com/ride/146_9...g/viewall.html

[ninja250r81]

If you need to go over the center line when cornering you are riding on the road too fast slow down.

[Z300]

Originally Posted by ninja250r81

If you need to go over the center line when cornering you are riding on the road too fast slow down.

Or fail at turning the bike like me when i first started hehe

[Ninjamomma]

Hey Motofool - have been enjoying your posts and reply's.

I don't know how other countries post their street signs (seeing some reply's from Australia), but in America - we have a sign before every curve with an arrow and a posted safe speed to maneuver through the up-coming curve. These, of course, are very, very safe - BUT are consistent of what kind of curve is coming.

At my skill level, I know I can take the curve signs below (followed in parenthesis by my speed) safely and rely heavily on the speed suggestion.

10mph - is a hair pin turn - mountain switchback (15mph)
A 20mph is a leaner (35mph)
35mph - fun fast turn....etc. (50-60mph)

Of course the decision of speed has much to do with if the curve is blind or open.

Safe cornering all!!!

[Ninjamomma]

Hey Motofool - have been enjoying your posts and reply's.

I don't know how other countries post their street signs (seeing some reply's from Australia), but in America - we have a sign before every curve with an arrow and a posted safe speed to maneuver through the up-coming curve. These, of course, are very, very safe - BUT are consistent of what kind of curve is coming.

At my skill level, I know I can take the curve signs below (followed in parenthesis by my speed) safely and rely heavily on the speed suggestion.

10mph - is a hair pin turn - mountain switchback (15mph)
A 20mph is a leaner (35mph)
35mph - fun fast turn....etc. (50-60mph)

Of course the decision of speed has much to do with if the curve is blind or open.

Safe cornering all!!!

[csmith12]

I don't put much stock in those signs. To my knowledge, they are an average of what the general road user can negotiate the turn. Is that applicable to performance oriented vehicles such as sport bikes and high end cars?

9 times out of 10 you can go around the curve faster than the sign's suggested speed. It's that 10th time you have to watch out for! Some of those speeds on the sign are DEAD nutz correct.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Ninjamomma

Hey Motofool - have been enjoying your posts and reply's.

Thank you very much, Suzanne.

In my opinion, street riding is a little more complicated that that.

Road signaling in USA is a very well organized system.
I have been fortunate to travel many American roads and can tell that for a huge majority of cases, the published speed limit corresponds with the hazard of the turn.

It is not always obvious, but the professionals doing that account for multiple things, such as children, surface, fog, animals, mud slides, temperature (yes, surfaces of bridges get much colder than the surfaces on the ground), Sun position, decreasing radius, slope, etc.

With enough miles and experience, and if you are a good observer, you will develop a personal sense for the safe speed for each condition to the point that you will agree with the speed limits very frequently.

If that sense tells you to go 40~50% faster than the posted limit, step back and think that those guys had more time than you to analyze each factor for that specific curve.

[Ninjamomma]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I don't put much stock in those signs. To my knowledge, they are an average of what the general road user can negotiate the turn. Is that applicable to performance oriented vehicles such as sport bikes and high end cars?

9 times out of 10 you can go around the curve faster than the sign's suggested speed. It's that 10th time you have to watch out for! Some of those speeds on the sign are DEAD nutz correct.

(First, sorry Motofool for hitting submit twice on above.)

Thanks for the heads up, because I haven't found that to be true so far - But, I have only motorcycled in Texas and Arkansas were the speed suggestion has been consistent to what is coming. I'll be more watchful.

[csmith12]

Texas has curves? hahahahaha sorry. I had to.

[Ninjamomma]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Texas has curves? hahahahaha sorry. I had to.

Hell Yea Pardner! Texas has..........some curves - but mostly on the women here....Ha!

The Hill Country is the best place to ride in Texas for curves (to me)

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Ninjamomma

(First, sorry Motofool for hitting submit twice on above.)

Alex, our star moderator, already fixed it.

Don't listen to these jealous people,............yes, there are curves in Florida too...............are there?

You are a fast learner, all you need is more miles of rolling with very open eyes,.......with a wide smile.

[Soujyu]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Texas has curves? hahahahaha sorry. I had to.

Yes, there are.

One of the more memorable one is a particular left hand curve westbound on FM 337 that is marked 10mph. You take it faster than 10mph, you'll be falling several hundred feet to your death.

[mfresh]

Awesome article.

I wish there were more tracks around...

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by mfresh

Awesome article.

I wish there were more tracks around...

Around where?

[mfresh]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

Around where?

Everywhere really.

I believe there's one fairly close to me but only has maybe 4 track days a year.

Would be awesome to get on a track every day...

[BlueHairSar]

Originally Posted by mfresh

Everywhere really.

I believe there's one fairly close to me but only has maybe 4 track days a year.

Would be awesome to get on a track every day...

Go pro?

[mfresh]

Originally Posted by BlueHairSar

Go pro?

Lol.

I guess what I am trying to say is how to do you even get to the "pro" level? I imagine part of the process of increasing your riding skill requires practice.

I wouldn't even know how to get enough track riding to get up to that level without traveling the country trying to attend every track day I could. Does one simply wake up in the morning and decides he/she wants to go pro and goes to some track riding school?

I suppose I do not really understand the process of getting into the whole track racing industry without being born into it or something.

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by mfresh

Lol.

I guess what I am trying to say is how to do you even get to the "pro" level? I imagine part of the process of increasing your riding skill requires practice.

I wouldn't even know how to get enough track riding to get up to that level without traveling the country trying to attend every track day I could. Does one simply wake up in the morning and decides he/she wants to go pro and goes to some track riding school?

I suppose I do not really understand the process of getting into the whole track racing industry without being born into it or something.

Do a track day. If you like it go to a Racing School. Get your racing license and go Club Racing. Win everything you enter and get your AMA Racing license. Win everything you're in and become rich and famous. It's that easy.

Road Atlanta, Roebing Road, Tally, Barber, Jennings, Kershaw, Nola are a few tracks around you.

[BlueHairSar]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

It's that easy.

Challenge Accepted.

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by BlueHairSar

Challenge Accepted.

It's even easier for a girl. They put you on pole. No wait, that's just Danica. Or does it work for all girls?

Elena did it with a little help (is she Mike Myers' sister?). So it is possible.

[csmith12]

Don't sponsors give it up easier for female riders? Even if your "kinda" fast and female, you can get sponsored pretty easy around my parts. It may not be a 100% ride but your paper will have to be as long.

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Don't sponsors give it up easier for female riders? Even if your "kinda" fast and female, you can get sponsored pretty easy around my parts. It may not be a 100% ride but your paper will have to be as long.

I believe the proper phase is, "Don't sponsors give it up easier for female riders that give it up?"

I used to race with a girl from Canada. I beat her everytime from Daytona to Pocono, Summit and Loudon. She had all the help a girl could want. She ended up being a stunt rider for movies. She was a hottie so I'd say if you have the look, you get the help.

[BlueHairSar]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

I believe the proper phase is, "Don't sponsors give it up easier for female riders that give it up?"

I used to race with a girl from Canada. I beat her everytime from Daytona to Pocono, Summit and Loudon. She had all the help a girl could want. She ended up being a stunt rider for movies. She was a hottie so I'd say if you have the look, you get the help.

[BRad704]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

Start growing your hair out. Do a track day. If you like it go to a Racing School. Get your racing license, become officially female and go Club Racing. Win something you enter and get your AMA Racing license. Keep showing up and you're in and become rich and famous. It's that easy.

Road Atlanta, Roebing Road, Tally, Barber, Jennings, Kershaw, Nola are a few tracks around you.

In light of the more recent posts... I have fixed your comment. You're welcome and good luck with all that.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Motofool

3 Steer the bike quickly.

i have a problem with this one.

turning "quickly" requires lots of force on the bars. there is no reason to apply excess bar forces on the street. the reason for heavy bar forces is a quick flick like in a chicane. it puts huge amounts of stress on the tire... on the street traction is iffy at best... there is no reason to steer quickly and risk tucking the front. yes, under normal conditions you wouldn't go above 50% tire usage but if traction is already gone to crap without you realizing it, you may not have enough. smooth and steady, always.

[Motofool]

Allow me to dissent, my dear Alex.

Originally Posted by alex.s

i have a problem with this one.
turning "quickly" requires lots of force on the bars.........

That force is proportional to the speed of the bike; moderate speeds require only moderate force on the bars and hence on the front contact patch.

Originally Posted by alex.s

.... on the street traction is iffy at best... there is no reason to steer quickly and risk tucking the front..........

For me the reason is to reduce the lean angle during a curve, which traction may be iffy.
I rather force the front tire a little over the surface that I can see better than lean in excess over surface that is too far from me to see well, specially at night.
Out of habit, I do it for every turn (except when it is raining), and so far, have never tucked the front (except one time that I made the mistake of accelerating hard simultaneously: did not fall but the bike did not turn either ).

Originally Posted by alex.s

yes, under normal conditions you wouldn't go above 50% tire usage but if traction is already gone to crap without you realizing it, you may not have enough. smooth and steady, always.

Copied from ToftheT2:

"Steering Rule Number Two: Steer as-quickly-as-possible in every turn.
As-quickly-as-possible means: According to the turn's demands.
Obviously, you wouldn't give it a snap-over at 10 mph in a parking lot,because you will fall.
On the high end, (say, coming up to a 120-mph turn), you're not going to get it turned that quickly.
You won't necessarily fall, but you just can't snap a bike at 120 mph because the gyro effect is too strong.
So, the as-quickly-as-possible is tailored to the turn but it's always A.Q.A.P.

The faster the corner the slower you turn it because itwill upset the bike.

Can you turn too quickly?
Yes, It is possible to steer the bike so quickly that the sudden load on the tires is enough to completely lose traction.
That is the real limit.
How often does it happen?
Well, how manytimes have you seen someone turn in, lose the front-end and crash (being too heavy on the brakes and turning at the same time not included)?
It'svery rare.
On-gas crashes outnumber these 500-to-1.
The obvious other exception is turning too quickly on wet or otherwise slippery surfaces.
Suspension set too soft, allowing the forks to bottom out, can also promote loss of traction at turn-entry.

I don't think you could ever turn the bike quick enough to lose the front unless it was set up wrong or there was something on the track."

[choneofakind]

I think the twist of the wrist is also trying to correct for early turn in. If I remember correctly, they mentioned quick turn-in at the same time as talking about staying wide and looking without turning so you can see apex, then turning in quickly and smoothly.

I don't interpret that as "snap it over as fast as you possibly can", I interpret that as "lean the bike over with authority after you can see rather than gradually mushing into it and starting your turn too early".

[alex.s]

i think "turn in quickly" is more of a crutch for bad line assessment when charging a corner. "turn in late", is more correct IMO as it allows you more road where you will actually need it. turning in late does require actually turning in at a set point and not simply "looking where you want to go" and allowing some kind of magic to guide you through the turn which ... i guess could be what they mean by turn quickly... but there are times when you really need to crank the **** out of the bars. i've only needed to really put down a lot of force a few times on the street, and they were all lane splitting trying to avoid a car pulling out in front of me. seriously though i don't think what he says is correct. as quickly as possible? no. not on unknown asphalt. turn in with certainty. pick a correct line that will allow you the most room where you will need it

[alex.s]

ah yes, little chode beat me to it

[choneofakind]

Boom! I beat alex to it

[Motofool]

Quick flick is about turning the bike (in degrees of turn rotation) as much as possible in as little time as possible while it is falling into the final lean angle.

......and yes, it is associated to late entry point and late apex, as a way to increase visual range into the curve.

A reduced subsequent lean angle is a desirable consequence of the technique.

[alex.s]

i agree and its good for perfect traction. on the street you should assume you have 80% traction at best. you don't know the condition of the tarmac, you don't know exactly how cold your tires are (it varys a lot based on the tarmac you're riding on) that's why you don't see people dragging knee on the street (well... you dont see smart people dragging knee on the street). quick turn-in loads the front heavily. i actually just crashed on the track because of too much gas after a quick turn in like this. all i'm saying is "the most possible" is not correct at all. being smooth is a top priority. don't doddle, but as fast as possible ... not with street suspension. not with street tires. not on the street.

[alex.s]

i'm trying really hard to find a way to quantify how much bar force we're talking about here... i guess ft/lbs is most accurate... when i say "crank the bars" i'm talking about full force with both arms... thats probably a short burst of around 100ft/lbs i'm guessing? that's a lot. on the street i wouldn't go above like... 40ft/lbs... imagine tightening a bolt to 40ft/lbs... its still a good amount of force. but its not as much as possible. know what i mean?

at chuckwalla, turns 11/12 ("corkscrew") is a WOT chicane, and you really do crank the bars almost full force... this is something that would easily wash you out with cold tires or cold tarmac or bad suspension

[BRad704]

Hey MFool, why you exiting on the far left? Push it on outside!

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

.........I don't interpret that as "snap it over as fast as you possibly can", I interpret that as "lean the bike over with authority after you can see rather than gradually mushing into it and starting your turn too early".

Chapter 15 explains this much better than me:

"You spend some amount of time "turning" or steering your bike (going from straight up to leaned over) at every corner.
......Have you ever noticed how quickly the top guys can do it?
......If how quickly you can turn/steer your bike were on a scale from 1-10, where would you be?
........With as much as a 2,0-second steer rate being readily observable in most street riders. (top guys can do it in 0.5-second), I place the average rider at about 3 or 4 on the scale.
What does it take to move up the scale and WHY would you want to?
What prevents you from steering your bike more quickly?"

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by alex.s

........all i'm saying is "the most possible" is not correct at all. being smooth is a top priority. don't doddle, but as fast as possible ... not with street suspension. not with street tires. not on the street.

Completely agree, Alex.

We are talking abut a technique described in a book written for the track and racing.

Any street application should be moderated and tailored to the conditions, not only of the road surface but of the traffic.

"Going beyond is as bad as falling short." - Chinese Proverb

I love doing it, also because it attracts some attention from the cagers, who probably think that I am falling over.

[RedOctober]

Originally Posted by Soujyu

Yes, there are.

One of the more memorable one is a particular left hand curve westbound on FM 337 that is marked 10mph. You take it faster than 10mph, you'll be falling several hundred feet to your death.

FM337 is one of the 3 Twisted Sisters. Quite famous TX motorcycle getaway. Our club lost a rider there few years ago.
For a good rush, one doesn't need to go far. I live 10 minutes away from Lime Creek Road in Austin. All together it's about 13 miles of awesome twists and turns. 45mph tops speed limit, signs that read 20mph (when CCW) and 10mph CW, and if you're not very experienced/new on the road, you better believe the sign. One of few places where TX DOT meant it. To add to the thrills is:
- Locals throwing gravel into turns just for fun
- Austin drivers who dont know how to turn and usually use the entire road

[Motofool]

[snot]

Great timing as the season has just begun.

[Sirref]

Originally Posted by csmith12

I don't put much stock in those signs. To my knowledge, they are an average of what the general road user can negotiate the turn. Is that applicable to performance oriented vehicles such as sport bikes and high end cars?

9 times out of 10 you can go around the curve faster than the sign's suggested speed. It's that 10th time you have to watch out for! Some of those speeds on the sign are DEAD nutz correct.

There are a few that I know of near me that I do not mess with, one is a blind switchback on a steep incline that comes out of nowhere. Going downhill you're golden but it is so sketchy going uphill