Ron Paul!

[almost40]

Originally Posted by Ren13

The forming of this country actually had nothing to do with your "God" or the christian religion. The founders specifically stated that religion and state are NOT to be intertwined. Also, the "God" part of the pledge wasn't put in the pledge until the 40's, I believe.

Take your religious warmongering bullshit and shove it up your ass.

Thats it huh?? Thats all I get??
The founders wanted religious freedom you dunderhead. Hence the sepration of church and state.
Get and education and do a little thinking on your own.

[kyrider]

Come on you all!

Link to original page on YouTube.

[almost40]

Originally Posted by Ren13

That's what I JUST SAID.

Notice that George Bush claiming he "was told by god to invade Iraq" is NOT SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.

Also, scroll up and read, I just disproved your cute little "All the US wants is to saves countries! Myth"

I never said the US wants to save countries. I dont know where you got that?? Prevent genocide when possible........sure. Protect our vital and strategic intrests........no doubt. Save countries?? the only thing that can save a country is its people.

George Bush saying God told him to invade Iraq has nothing to do with the separation of church and state. Do you even have any Idea what the founders (mainly Jefferson and Madison) meant when that was added or why it was added?? Ill give ya hint. It had something to do with England and the corruption of the christian church and its effort to aquire political power. Hence the reason the colonies were formed and they declared independance from England.
Do a little looking on your own. Ya might learn something.
Every political leader has been religious with the exception af a few including Madison. They were all influenced by there religious beliefs or the lack there of. That has nothing to do with the separation of church and state.

[almost40]

BTW your welcome to leave my country and move anywhere in the world you would like.
Since you did say "your glorious nation"
I love my country and served it for 4 years honorably.

Back on topic here this has nothing to do with Ron Paul or his views, in any way shape or form.

I get it .....its all GW's fault.

[almost40]

Originally Posted by Ren13

Sure wish we could all sing that song together instead of overthrowing democratically elected governments for oil

Im wondering when the Iraqi people democraticly elected Sadam Hussien. Im quite sure all the people hes gassed didnt get to vote.
Check this out at wikipedia and tell me he was good for the people.
Human rights in Saddam Hussein's Iraq

[kyrider]

I love the lil children!

Link to original page on YouTube.

[almost40]

Bye Ren13 Thanks for sharing.

[alex.s]

ibtl

[almost40]

Name calling again??? very mature and a lock at making me look bad.
Thought you were done posting here.

[almost40]

Originally Posted by alex.s

ibtl

Doubt the lock. Might just be a time out for someone.
I dont care either way.

[alex.s]

i think this is part of the problem with american politics. the whole incivility crap. other person doesn't agree with what i'm saying? they must have some kind of mental issue, or are not seeing the things i'm seeing so let me grab their head and force them to see what i'm seeing. there's no problem with explaining your view point. but if the other person doesn't get it, or doesn't want to get it, or sees things in a different light, great. that's that. don't call someone names and point out that you feel they're an ignorant bastard or whatever term you want to use. chances are you're just as ignorant as they are in some areas.

i think americans need to accept the fact that we're much more ignorant than we think we are. we've got all this fancy technology spoon feeding us opinion like it's fact and it makes us feel like we're educated on the matters. we aren't. don't fool yourself into thinking what you've heard on TV or read in the paper or on the huffington post is good enough to justify taking such strong stances on topics. if you want to call someone a stupid ignorant bastard, quote some books and long term research that concludes the facts you're representing. proving someone wrong legitimately works much more effectively versus calling someone a stinky poo poo head. if we as a whole accept our ignorance and learn to deal with it by doing things like not making bold assumptions, accepting the possibility of alternative views, and realizing that we might be wrong and because of these things and actually LISTENING to what someone is saying when they oppose what we have to say, instead of denying it and making ourselves sound even dumber as a whole because "i'm right, regardless." maybe, just maybe, we might reverse this trend of increasing ignorance on public and foreign policy in government.

with that said, asking someone to explain parts of their view further is not disagreeing with them. pointing out potential faults in their logic is not saying that they're wrong. these things are parts of discussion that are useful in communication and actually figuring out where someone stands. maybe you'll even point out a piece of information they didn't realize before. maybe because you point something out to them, they'll provide you with the piece of information you're missing to realize the point they're making. good communication revolves around the sharing of ideas. not the suppression of other points of view.

[alex.s]

now... it is my opinion, and i believe ron paul shares this opinion, that other countries are not ours to dictate. if another country has an issue, the UN can get involved and if there is a vote that something needs to be done, something can be done in a group effort. one country should not hold power over other countries. if we want to preach our liberty, why not practice it with other countries' rights to their own sovereignty. if we want to dictate the rest of the world, in my opinion, that means we're overstepping our borders, and those countries' liberty which we should believe in since we don't want our liberties overstepped. there may be problems elsewhere in the world. that doesn't mean it's our job to fix them.

[Alex]

Isolationism doesn't work. Live and let live at a country by country level is nice in theory, but flawed in practice. There are X billion people on this orb, a finite amount of space, and a finite amount of resources. Dividing those resources evenly by person across that entire orb ends up with everyone at what Americans would characterize as extreme poverty. Life isn't fair. At the individual level. Or at the country level. It is in the best interest of our country, and its citizens, to have a strong economy, supporting a high standard of living of its inhabitants; very high compared to the much of the rest of the world. To maintain that growth, maintain that position, and maintain what we would now describe as "normal", requires significant interaction across the world, in support of those interests. That includes supporting trade, supporting allies who are (by definition) in alignment with many of our key goals, and doing what we can to thwart or control any other country's initiatives or progress that would get in the way of our own interests. The way we deliver that support, exert that control, and put our interests above other countries, is through diplomacy, economic success, and military superiority. Not all in equal parts, but each of them play a very significant part along the way. That's the world we live in. Russia has its own goals, China has its own goals, along with every other country with both a powerful military and a capability for a strong economy.

Ron Paul is silly for a number of reasons, but two of them are that he completely misses the point of why foreign policy exists, not realizing how important it truly is to the economic well-being of our own country. And - while he professes to be the one "talking sense" about the economy and what we should do about it, he uses the most simplistic thoughts to equate a national economy with a household economy, as if they were even the slightest bit similar. No, it's not the same thing when a family runs up credit card bills, as when a government issues debt. No, you don't always do the exact same things you'd do as an individual as you would as a country, as the result of those same actions might, and likely will, have completely different results. And no, reinvigorating the gold standard isn't now and has never been the answer to any level of economic malaise.

He's not going to get elected, he's never going to get elected, and his only saving grace is that he will siphon votes from those who are even more clueless. On that note, we having nothing to fear, as Bachman has promised $2 gas when she gets elected.

[almost40]

Originally Posted by Ren13

I heard what he had to say, and it amounts to this-

All muslims are bad.

Christians rule.

America needs to kill everything.

He's ****ing insane.

Aparently you heard me but not alex.s

[almost40]

$2 a gallon gas. now thats funny. lol Maybe in 10 years with unleashing of oil drilling. But during the next presidents term or terms. near impossible in 1 term, highly unlikely in 2 terms.
Just another campaign promise to be broken. IMO

[almost40]

I love you Alex. Your a thinker. I know we dont agree on everything, but I still love you. If anyone here could influnce the way I percieve things it would be you. Clear, concise, to the point.
And yeah Im coming around to the Bachman is bat **** crazy idea you have. Im not totally there yet but getting closer and closer.
Scarry aint it.

[almost40]

Originally Posted by Ren13

I heard what he had to say, and it amounts to this-

All muslims are bad.

Christians rule.

America needs to kill everything.

He's ****ing insane.

Thats your take on what I said???
Man alive. Muslim fundamentalist
are bad. Didnt type a peep about how Christians rule, I dont recall saying a word about how america need to kill everything.
and Im the insane one??

[alex.s]

for some reason i love using the canada analogy... canada is in the same region as the US. has a similar land mass, though different resources and about 10 times fewer people as the US. but what interests me about canada is they do much less minding of other countries business. don't get me wrong i have no issue with sending diplomats and negotiating trade deals and the like. what i have issue with is when we as a country decide to go against what this country was founded on, while denying that we're doing just that. if we want to invade a country for political reasons, or if we want to invade somewhere for resourceful gain, then don't pretend like we're spreading freedom. because that's not what we're doing. we're doing what the british were doing when we decided to become independent of them. we decided we have the power, we're going to tell you what to do. unfortunately this has the side effect that people get pissed off. and pissed off people tend to do some pretty crazy things.
isolationism most certainly does not work in this global economy. but i think assassinating people and putting people we've hand picked into power is not a good idea in the long run. look at saddam. look at bin laden and the mujahideen in 79. look at countless other dictators put in place by american imperialism and our constant futzing with other country's political structure.
yes, instability elsewhere in the world makes stability here "easier" in some senses and makes exploiting those instabilities easier... but, and maybe this is me being a hippy or something but, what if the entire world was stable? what if countries didn't need to exploit each other? is that really that far out of touch with reality to think we might have a chance to get away from the massive amount of greed and powerthirst that has dominated our species if the majority of the world was stable enough to be self sufficient?
yes, you are most certainly correct that our interference in other countries is for the US's own gains. but how would we feel if another country was interfering in our politics for their own gains? how would you feel if another country came in and replaced our president and congress with someone they hand-picked?
its the same issue with social security here in the US. those who need it consider it a valuable fruit of a successful nation that should be protected. those who don't need it consider it to be unneeded entitlements garnered by those they disagree with.

something is only good in your eyes when you need it.

[Alex]

Canada doesn't do anything because it doesn't *need* to do anything. It has the backing of the US and UK militaries, does not have foreign ambitions or goals that are in conflict with its allies, and has a much smaller population to support. Saying that the US in any way could follow the Canada model is missing the point about how global politics work.

Originally Posted by alex.s

yes, you are most certainly correct that our interference in other countries is for the US's own gains. but how would we feel if another country was interfering in our politics for their own gains?

That's the point. A strong economy, an effective military, and overall leadership is what prevents just that from happening. Life is competition, Alex. Wishing for want or greed to not exist is not a human characteristic. It's not unique to Americans, or any other culture. Wanting for more and having the ability to make it happen is what drives innovation, it's what drives growth, and it is one of the reasons that our country has enjoyed success, along with some bumps in the road along the way.

[almost40]

Dont get me wrong but all the pie in the sky, cant we all just get along... is great when your the "fat and happy" one. Easy to consider, even allowed in free society. It just doesnt work like that in other places around the world. Most of the world outside of our society and a few others of course is third world poor. They want things. plain and simple.
I cringe when I hear that we are going against the constitution or what the founding fathers invisioned.. Nothing could be further from the truth. The accent to the #1 super power in the world was exactly what they dreamed of. A country that allows its free people to spread freedom to all corners of the globe. Sure there has been some failures. There has also been alot of success. We get better at it all the time, its a learning process, but we do learn. Take a look at 19th century europe. Europe became what it is today thru the direct result of the US. Granted there were 2 world wars on the continent in the 20th but it was all made possible by the thumb in the eye given to the British Empire buy 13 colonies acrost the pond. The US was the begiing of the end for the british empire and God willing it will be the end of communisum some day. Freedom is a God given right endowed on us by our creator. Everyone wants it....they dream of it. Lord knows we will have to fight for it. At home and abroad.

[alex.s]

alex, you make very valid points.

[kyrider]

Originally Posted by Alex

Isolationism doesn't work.

You think Ron Paul is an Isolationist?

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by kyrider

You think Ron Paul is an Isolationist?

Of course! He himself does as well, he just defines it as non-interventionist as if it's a distinction. He ostensibly states he supports trade with everyone, yet makes distinctions on whether to help people in need depending on natural disasters or political causes. He's arguing for not attempting to influence the politics of other entities, regardless of their threat, alignment, support, opposition to US goals and security requirements. Staunch neutrality and non-intervention / isolationist beliefs aren't in the best interests of the US, and haven't been since before WW1. Wanting things to happen is never going to be the same as working to make them happen.

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by almost40

Oh ok so In God we trust isnt printed on our money?? Nor are we one nation under God indivisable with liberty and justice for all.
Did they still say the pledge when you went to school??

The words "under god" were only added in 1954 during the second red scare, because of a nutjob like you. The words have been out of the pledge for longer than they have been in it.

[almost40]

Yet another pot shot from cynical.
So you acknowledge that russia is or at least in the 50's was an enemy with the whole red scare statement?
Im still waiting for you to enlighten us with your opinion on why China and Russia are our allies. Not our eneimies.
I think I might be waiting a long long time.

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by almost40

Yet another pot shot from cynical.
So you acknowledge that russia is or at least in the 50's was an enemy with the whole red scare statement?
Im still waiting for you to enlighten us with your opinion on why China and Russia are our allies. Not our eneimies.
I think I might be waiting a long long time.

Uh, so you're basing the entire idea that Russia is our enemy on the red scare, for which McCarthy (your hero no doubt) was censored for being nutty as a fruitcake? bravo.

[almost40]

Originally Posted by CynicalC

Uh, so you're basing the entire idea that Russia is our enemy on the red scare, for which McCarthy (your hero no doubt) was censored for being nutty as a fruitcake? bravo.

That has nothing to do with my preception of why russia is our enemy.
Here we are with yet another pot shot at yourself, I presume. You brought up the red scare.
Still waiting on you to tell us why they and China are our friends.

[CynicalC]

Ok this is turning into a bad Abbott and Costello routine. You still haven't said what makes them enemies. Until you do that, I have nothing to counter. It's like saying "I think my neighbor around the block wants to kick my ass" and I say "Why?" You are essentially saying "Well what makes you think he doesn't?" It's just too late to come up with a better analogy. That's as simple as I can make it. Until you can come up with anything proving that we should he treating them as enemies, I guess I have nothing more to say.

[almost40]

How about a quote or two from Putin himself?
“We are seeing a greater and greater disdain for the basic principles of international law. And independent legal norms are, as a matter of fact, coming increasingly closer to one state’s legal system. One state and, of course, first and foremost the United States, has overstepped its national borders in every way. This is visible in the economic, political, cultural and educational policies it imposes on other nations. Well, who likes this? Who is happy about this?”

Aparently Putin isnt to happy about it.
Is this something that our allies would say??
It something Cynical and Ren would say. As a matter of fact Ren said "your glorious country" earlier. I dont think hes too in love with the current situation here in the states. Congratulations you have aligned yourself with a de-facto dictator and former KGB member.

“The combined GDP, measured in purchasing power parity of countries such as India and China is already greater than that of the United States. And a similar calculation with the GDP of the BRIC countries – Brazil, Russia, India and China – surpasses the cumulative GDP of the EU. And according to experts this gap will only increase in the future.”

This is a direct threat to the US and her allies.
Russia and her allies make more money than you, be careful.
These above quotes were made in 2004.
Thats within a decade Cynical.


Add to the above Russia and Chinas involvement in poliferation of arms and nuclear expertese to places like North Koerea (a country still in a declared war with our allies in South Korea) and Iran (a contry who is still in a declared war with the US since 1979 and who has vowed to wipe our friends in Israel off the map)
I cant see how you consider them allies??
Please enlighten us

[almost40]

Originally Posted by CynicalC

You still haven't said what makes them enemies. Until you do that, I have nothing to counter. Until you can come up with anything proving that we should he treating them as enemies, I guess I have nothing more to say.

Im wondering when you will prove this quote

Originally Posted by CynicalC

No, it's crazy to think that they ARE the enemy. Seriously, what decade are you living in?

Its easy to toss around the whole burden of proof is on you thing so Ill give it a shot.

Still waiting here.

[almost40]

Originally Posted by Ren13

You can't reason with him. I'm starting to think he isn't the most mentally sound of people.

The 6th grade name calling thing works in the 6th grade. Not so much with adults.
Keep on trying.

Your welcome to step up and tell me why Russian and China are our allies.
If you dare.

You seem to have aligned yourself with Cynical in the latter parts of this thread.
Go ahead and take your best shot at the above question.

[almost40]

Originally Posted by CynicalC

Ok this is turning into a bad Abbott and Costello routine. You still haven't said what makes them enemies. Until you do that, I have nothing to counter. It's like saying "I think my neighbor around the block wants to kick my ass" and I say "Why?" You are essentially saying "Well what makes you think he doesn't?" It's just too late to come up with a better analogy. That's as simple as I can make it. Until you can come up with anything proving that we should he treating them as enemies, I guess I have nothing more to say.

This is almost a clever way of trying to get out of backing up your claims That they are friends of the US.

I have posted alot of reasons I think they are not friends. I know you have read them. You have responded to most of them by calling me names.

[almost40]

Originally Posted by Ren13

You seem to be ignoring everything I say.

You think you are "winning" an argument that you haven't even responded to. Sad and delusional.

How's that Japanese bike working out for you? Be careful, IT MIGHT BE BOOBY-TRAPPED. You know we fought the Japanese 70-odd years ago, right?!?!?!111111 1 111

Since you are completely incapable of responding to people's posts in any kind of intelligent fashion, I'm going to block you so I don't lose IQ everytime I try to read your paranoid bullshit.

Kthxbai.

See.......... there is a God.

its kinda hard to pay attention and listen to you after post like this.

Originally Posted by Ren13

Thanks for being a mindless war loving religious zealot and a total bigot!

You not interested in a discussion. Your a juvenile.
As a matter of fact the only question you ever asked was in post 141
Other than that it was a bunch of rhetoric designed to deflect my opinions and facts and quotes.


Guess you cant come up with an opinion as to why Russia and China are allies? How about a fact or two??
So your leaving for a second time??
See ya, and I wouldnt want to be ya.

Looks like its just me and you Cynical.
My opinion backed by facts and now even quotes are posted.
You planning on cutting and running like Ren or do you care to enlighten me as to why Russia and China are indeed in fact allies of the US.

[alex.s]

i don't like saying it, but valdimir was correct.

granted, the same could be said about countless other countries including russia itself with things like the gas shutoff and all that crap... well at least they stay local.

but still after saying that, what ol' vladdy said could hardly be construed as a direct threat to the US. more of saying "hey US. you know that stuff you're doing that everyone including yourself knows you do? you know how everyone doesn't like it? yeah we don't really like it very much either."

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by almost40

Im wondering when you will prove this quote

you can't prove a negative. you can only prove a positive

[almost40]

Originally Posted by alex.s

i don't like saying it, but valdimir was correct.

And your entitled to your opinion on the matter.
My point was you dont hear anything like that from our allies. do ya?? IMO it was a statement made to the countries that are not so friendly to the US. He was saying, Check Russia out the US isnt the only big boy on the block. If you feel like the US is meddling in your country we can be your friend.

Originally Posted by alex.s

granted, the same could be said about countless other countries including russia itself with things like the gas shutoff and all that crap... well at least they stay local.

No doubt nearly all if not all the US allies in Europe complained at the time. As did the US and nato if I recall.

Originally Posted by alex.s

but still after saying that, what ol' vladdy said could hardly be construed as a direct threat to the US. more of saying "hey US. you know that stuff you're doing that everyone including yourself knows you do? you know how everyone doesn't like it? yeah we don't really like it very much either."

And the only ones really complaining are not allies of the US.
Our allies understand that our best interests align with there best interests. Hence the reason they are in fact allies.

The whole point of his speach was to offer and alternative to the US. He was saying We still are a superpower in oposition to the US. You can pick our side if your on the fence. The second quote was to those very people on the fence. He was saying that in the future the US and her allies wont be the richest nor the most powerful alliance on the planet. We (meaning the BRIC countries) will be able to rival nato and the US in terms of earning power and soon military might.

You have to understand that he cant just blurt out that we hate the US and nato. IMO hes very clever and his KGB days taught him well. Hes offering an alternative. Is that not what an enemy would do??
Our allies would never publicly say anything even remotely close to this.
Tell me where my logic is flawed.

Dont get me wrong but the russians and chinese are trying desparatly to catch up the the US in terms of military might and technology. In some cases the russians are doing a bang up job. The recently launched a new class of balistic missle subs that are in fact superior to ours. They have developed there own stealt fighter and are working feverishly (along with the chinese) and building new aircraft carries. Then there the new addition to the russian aresal the FOAB

According to Russian generals, the bomb is four times more powerful than the American Massive Ordnance Air Blast Bomb.
The new bomb is smaller than the MOAB but much deadlier because, due to nanotechnology, the temperature at the epicentre of the blast is twice as high. This bomb was tested and to the suprise of the western world and as far as we can tell, works as advertised.
Russia has delivered a message of defiance to the West. Developed in secret, the unchristened bomb, a vacuum device capable of emitting shockwaves as powerful as a nuclear weapon, was unveiled...
The weapon had "no match in the world." according to russian sources.

None of that seems like actions of an friend.

If we are indeed allies whats all the hardware for?

I find it depressing that there are some that think we need to cut miliary spending. I cant believe we cancled the F22. The russians are plowing ahead and were cutting spending.
Its all nutty to me.

On top of that Mr Putin has ordered his long-range nuclear bombers to mount patrols in international airspace for the first time since the Cold War.
Recently, Russian Tupolev bombers approached British airspace for the fourth time in two months and sorties have also been flown close to US military installations.
Seems to me the kremlin is flexing its muscles none of it is good news for us here in the states.
None of it seems to me IMO like the actions of a friend to the west.
Tell me where im wrong.

[Xoulrath]

Originally Posted by alex.s

granted, the same could be said about countless other countries including russia itself with things like the gas shutoff and all that crap... well at least they stay local.

They only stay local because they don't have the military might yet to push further. Give it some time. They're working on it.

Like it or not, that is how the world has always worked. Let's not let modern comforts fool any of us into thinking that the world as a whole is any better now than in the days of roving bands of barbarians looting and plundering whatever was in reach.

Certainly individuals have evolved. Yet the mob mentality and blind faith to a cause (whatever the cause) haven't. I'm not too worried about China now, because they still need us to fuel their growth. In the future, that may not be the case. At their current pace, they will exceed us economically if we stay on the path we are on now. Once they achieve that goal, it is only a matter of time until they exceed us militarily as well.

[almost40]

Originally Posted by Xoulrath

They only stay local because they don't have the military might yet to push further. Give it some time. They're working on it.

Like it or not, that is how the world has always worked. Let's not let modern comforts fool any of us into thinking that the world as a whole is any better now than in the days of roving bands of barbarians looting and plundering whatever was in reach.

Certainly individuals have evolved. Yet the mob mentality and blind faith to a cause (whatever the cause) haven't. I'm not too worried about China now, because they still need us to fuel their growth. In the future, that may not be the case. At their current pace, they will exceed us economically if we stay on the path we are on now. Once they achieve that goal, it is only a matter of time until they exceed us militarily as well.

Im with ya on the China thing for now. As long as were sitting on top of the oil we can control the growth rate in china by manipulating the price of a barrel of crude. Imagine what the growth rate would be in China at 30 bucks a barrel.
Russia is a different stroy. They have a crude surplus and its making them trillions. They are the 800 pound Gorilla in the room. They big red terror is back and soon to be stronger than ever.
We as a country need to get on the ball here or we will be left in the dust.
Its a tricky game were playing. We must keep the price of oil up to hurt the chinese but low enough that the russians cant make a fortune. The only ace in the hole we have is that theres alot of oil in our borders and canada and mexico as well. I suspect oil drilling and recovery will begin in earnest in the near future. Its really the only card we have to play. As the middle east fields begin to decline in the next 50 years we will bring ours online and soon be able to control the flow ourselfs. Thats the ace in the hole.
God bless the thinkers in the pentagon. They are doing there job.

[alex.s]

you do realize that even our allies point out things like what putin said... literally everyone agrees the US has its hands where they don't belong. the difference is our sworn allies compliment us before saying it. but anyway you act like people have to either be enemies or allies. you do realize allies quickly can become enemies and enemies can quickly become allies, right? take russia in WW2. they were by no means politically aligned with the USs interests, but because of a common enemy, they were our allies. the world isn't black and white. it's not either with us or against us. to act like it is seems rather simple minded. take the very valid point about china. if china wanted to attack us they would be screwed. do you know how much their economy depends on us? someone might not like us, that doesn't mean they're our enemy.

[alex.s]

btw, ron paul is one of the largest proponents of american oil drilling. every chance he gets he votes for offshore drilling, removing bans, removing oil restrictions, removing environmental impact restrictions related to oil drilling, etc. if you think oil is how we will prosper, ron paul seems to agree with you.